the daily mail is a right-wing RAG. find a different source!
Butch1
· 1 year ago
Well said, John and presented in a very logical way.
davegun2
· 1 year ago
Man do you have clear thinking.
Dave Viet Vet and old gay dude
bear
· 1 year ago
" The only reason we accept bigotry cloaked in religion when it's targeted against gays is because we all - ALL OF US- are more tolerant of intolerance when the target is gay."
Speak for yourself. I may be a Southern, white, straight male raised in a bigoted, white-male society, but I, for one, AM NOT more tolerant of intolerance when the target is gay.
cowboyneok
· 1 year ago
I'm getting sick to death of the "comfortable gay" crowd who are working against our civil rights by excusing bigotry. Their whole "lets not rock the boat" shit has got to stop. The rest of us want our rights. We need to do more, as a community, to shut up the well connected members of our community who are willing to excuse bigotry against the rest of us. They have the resources to live their lives in the status quo. The rest of us don't have that luxury, and some of us that do have that luxury are not willing to see the members of our community who are marginalized, disenfranchised, or poor, and trying to enjoy equal rights and protections go their entire lives without seeing it. I'm getting SICK TO DEATH of hearing from "Hollywood types" who try to explain away bigotry against us. It has GOT to stop, or WE need to do something to stop it. We need to exile the gay apologists, and Log Cabiners as well as continue with focused boycotts of those who supported voting away our civil rights.
DavidinPS
· 1 year ago
Okay, just to set the record straight, I'm a comfortable, gay, Hollywood type, as are a lot of people I know, and I can't imagine anyone of us thinking the way Mr. Condon thinks. Put down the broad brush, please.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
Excellent post, John. Actually, I can see, touch and love my gay sisters and brothers. On the other hand, I can't believe in something that I can't see, touch and love. I'm guided by reality, not "gods."
Condon is giving more weight to religion than it ever deserved. Does he know anything at all about the Constitution?
R_Elland
· 1 year ago
Hmn. Well, Condon may have been making excuses for someone he likes. Or deep down he feels that those who did vote due to the religious view are in the right because he thinks they are right. I mean think about it. You grow up all your life living with people telling you that gays are 'bad'. Then you hit puberty, and suddenly, you realize you're one of the 'bad' people you've heard jokes against, little kids screaming Ewww You're So Gay!", and how the 'cool' kids had fun going out and throwing beer bottles at gay people near the local gay bar. Yea, that can take time to get past, and I've seen it show up in how gay people I've known have behaved. Others have gotten past it and become the stronger for it too. This person does not sound like he's gotten past that point. If he has, then it's on a very slippery edge when it comes to how he thinks of himself as a gay human being and religion. Just a thought to consider.
dad
· 1 year ago
wrong is wrong. no matter what.
shanobama
· 1 year ago
Well said John. This is the best statement I have read on this issue in the aftermath of prop 8.
My sign at the last protest said "Say NO to BIGOTRY". I think this statement is one which all agree upon. I stood at the end of a line of 15 or so. The oldsters walking by would sort of nod their heads when they read my sign, one man said "no", which was very sweet. A nice family of blond girls stopped to see my Xolo.
But then others would go on in silence, reading other signs, when they realized it was about GLBT rights. HUMMM. They slunk off in shame? No comment, hahah
foxy
· 1 year ago
A very nice and well thought out piece, John.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
The enemy of gays and lesbians is religion.
Many of the foundational texts of many religions are full of crap. We all know how the Bible is 'cherry picked' and it is the same for the Quran and other 'good books' as well. I am a deeply spiritual person, but I have to ask - why the fuck do so many of you continue to label yourselves Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Moslems, etc? How can any of you read these books? If I had children, I would never let them read the Bible which is full of vile stories - daughters seducing their drunken fathers, brothers killing brothers, etc.
I refuse to try to 'reason' with those who hate me. I question those who call themselves 'gay Christians' who are just as guilty of 'cherry picking' as those who hate gays. Is your cherry picking better than theirs? If God is so powerful, how come he didn't create a succinct PowerPoint presentation for us, instead of the muddled, violent, pornographic pile of crap called the Bible?
Again, the bottom line is that religion is the root homophobia. Period.
Blueflash
· 1 year ago
Please don't lump Buddhism in with the legalistic and intolerant Semitic religions. It's far too lofty a religion to concern itself with something as mundane as sexual orientation. You'll find absolutely nothing in all of Buddhist scripture to support homophobia.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
Sorry, regardless of Buddhist's text, the Buddhist leaders are clear: "A Western friend asked me what harm could there be between consenting adults having oral sex, if they enjoyed it," the Dalai Lama continues, warming to his theme. "But the purpose of sex is reproduction, according to Buddhism. The other holes don't create life. I don't mind - but I can't condone this way of life."
This is TOLERANCE, not ACCEPTANCE, which is the basis of the words 'they' and 'them' - 2 of the most harmful words/concepts in humans. And this from the religion whose adherents slaughtered 67,000 Christians in Japan some centuries back and whose monks continue to fight amongst each other to this day. Sorry, Buddhism gets no pass from me.
Blueflash
· 1 year ago
The Buddhist texts are the authority here, not the Dalai Lama. Nor does Buddhism demand that the spiritual leader of Tibet be regarded as a fully enlightened being. I knew the Dalai Lama's brother personally in Bloomington - I was a waiter for a while at his wife's restaurant - and even he, a practicing Buddhist, laughed at some of the accretions to Buddhism common among Tibetans. That individual Buddhists have their non-religion based prejudices is irrelevant. By the way, at the end of the same or a similar conversation with the Dalai Lama he demurred saying that in the end all desire is fundamentally the same thing.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
'Cherry pick' as you choose, just as all others do within their chosen religions. I happen to think that the way these leaders are chosen (as children) is a form of child abuse.
TampaZeke
· 1 year ago
Gary, I'm afraid you are showing a great deal of ignorance here in trying to make statements about the life philosophy/religion of Buddhism.
The Dalai Lama is NOT the authority of Buddhism. In fact most Buddhist don't even consider him to be AN authority. He is a very well known and popular monk/abbot (with all the normal faults and biases that any monk may have. To most Buddhist he is nothing more than that. The VAST majority of Buddhist DO NOT consider the Dalai Lama as the reincarnation of the Buddha (or even a particularly enlightened monk for that matter). He is the leader of the Vajrayana path (a branch of the Mahayana path) of Buddhism, one of MANY paths, and no where near the largest.
The Therevada path of Buddhism is seen as the path that most closely follows the original teachings of Lord Sakyamuni Gautama Buddha through his vast collection of suttas.
There is NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING in the suttas that condemns, disuades or speaks negatively of homosexuality. The only time Lord Buddha prohibited homosexual sex was for monks and nuns who were supposed to be celibate. The rule was no different for heterosexual monks and nuns. It's pretty clear that some of the Buddha's highest disciples were gay
This is NOT an issue of cherry picking. You can't cherry pick something that DOES NOT EXIST in the text.
Now, YOU HAVE cherry picked even in your short quote. You didn't bother to print the sentence that DIRECTLY followed the quote you printed here. In the following sentence, the Dalai Lama said that he was stating HIS OPINION ONLY and that there was NO sutta or scriptural reference to back up his statement.
Try reading at least a basic introduction to Buddhism before you profess to make such ignorant claims about what the "religion" says and does not say.
Blueflash
· 1 year ago
Thank you.
William kraal
· 1 year ago
LETS BE HONEST THIS WOULD BE A SO MUCH BETTER WORLD WITHOUT ALL THOSE RELIGION/CULT SCAMS ! WHO NEEDS ALL THIS BS?? START THINKING FOR YOURSELF!
TampaZeke
· 1 year ago
If you knew ANYTHING about Buddhism you would know that it isn't a religion, it's a life philosophy. There is no god in Buddha; nor is there dogma.
Buddha simply taught how people could find peace and happiness and share loving kindness. He SPECIFICALLY tells his followers MANY times in the Suttas to ALWAYS question, never take ANYTHING for face value no matter WHO tells you, INCLUDING Buddha himself. He DEMANDED that his disciples and those who follow the dhamma that he revealed in his suttas to QUESTION him and believe NOTHING that he or anyone else says it goes contrary to their own knowledge and understanding.
So, strangely enough it was Buddha himself who first stated "START THINKING FOR YOURSELF!" and he said it about 2600 years before you declared it You're a little late with that advice.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
Every so often, I read of monks at war with other monks. I have read in history about the Buddhists slaughtering others. If you want to split hairs, it was this type of Buddhist that said something homophobic and it was that type that did the killing and on and on and on.
Regardless, these belief systems, when confined to the church, temple, synagogue, mosque, are just peachy by me. But unfortunately, they are all part of the Religion Industrial Complex, Inc. If the what the Dalai Lama said was so outrageous, where was the outcry from other Buddhist monks? When monks try to kill each other, where is the criticism? Where is the apology for killing tens of thousands of Christians? Or do you all just look the other way? Sorry, I support your right to be as superstitious as any Mormon, Catholic, Moslem, Jew, Jain, etc in your belief systems. But don't ask me to think that it is anything other than a collective mental illness.
TampaZeke
· 1 year ago
Gary, please cite the references where Buddhist killed "tens of thousands of Christians". It was actually the other way around. Please don’t dig up some story written by colonists where they invaded a country or temple and then were horrified that the monks fought back. That is no different than stories about the poor white colonists in the new world who were “unjustly” slaughtered by those ungrateful savages.
I would also be curious to know how many monks YOU talked to about the Dalai Lama's statement. Monks, other than the Dalai Lama, DON'T do press conferences and don't go door to door like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses giving their opinions on things and trying to convert people to Buddhism. Buddhism does NOT proselytize. So unless you actually went to a monk and asked his opinion on the Dalai Lama’s screed you wouldn't know what their opinion was. From what I gather from your hostility to Buddhism I can't imagine that you did that. To set the record straight for you, EVERY monk I spoke with condemned the Dalai Lama's statement and made it very clear that they don't see him as anything more than another monk with a PERSONAL bias that is NOT backed up by Buddhist scriptures. There’s not even a scripture that can be twisted, taken out of context or spun to condemn homosexuality. It simply does not exist.
I think if you just took the time, as an INTELLECTUAL rather than spiritual pursuit, to study Buddhism and the teachings of the Buddha you just might be surprised and amazed that it is NOTHING like what you think. It is NOT a religion; it is a life philosophy that was shared by other great philosophers like Plato and Socrates. Do you also have harsh and negative feelings toward these great philosophers? Buddha was/is NOT a god, no matter how much ignorant westerners might want to believe that Buddhist believe such. Buddha was NOTHING more than a HUMAN who "got it". Buddhists do not worship Buddha or any other god. We don’t believe in a god. We simply honor and pay homage to Buddha for his great insights into life and how to attain happiness and wellbeing. We also honor, but do not worship, other "bodhisattvas" who "got it" like Jesus, Gandhi, MLK Jr., etc.
Buddha was an EXTRAORDINARY man who was enlightened about the human nature and the universe in a way that was centuries, even thousands of years before his time. Buddha, over 2500 years ago, described the UNIVERSE in great detail. Some things that he spoke of have only been discovered in the last fifty to 100 years. He also understood the world on a microscopic level. He held up a cup of water and told his disciples that even though it was beyond their comprehension the cup of water contained thousands of living beings.
One more thing, unlike the Bible with all its contradictions and scientifically proven errors, the Buddhist suttas, even though they are over seven times larger than the Bible do not contain contradiction and do not have anti-scientific claims barring the stories that were specifically embellished to help the uneducated and highly superstitious people of India at the time understand them better. Buddha himself acknowledged when this was done and explained why. He presented his parables or fables in ways that the masses were used to relating. Even the story of his birth was embellished for the benefit of relating to the Hindu and Brahman masses. But once again, the Buddha himself acknowledges this.
If nothing more Buddhism is an amazing study in philosophy, human nature and the difference between real, enduring happiness and the perceived happiness that comes, temporarily, from attachments to uncertain and impermanent people, places and things.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
So Buddhists do not accept their tax-exempt status in the US because they are not a religion? Is saying that the story of his birth was 'embellished' for the Hindu masses a form of 'cherry picking' ? Sorry, to those of us who do not have a belief system rooted in religious dogma AND do not have a need to control some non-existent urge to kill, AND who do have 'true' happiness, your adoration of someone who existed more than 2500 years ago, based upon a story has surely been embellished over time, is nonsense. I support your right to believe ANYTHING you want. And I have the right to criticize that belief.
TampaZeke
· 1 year ago
I notice that you didn't supply the citation to back up your spurious claim that Buddhists killed "tens of thousands of Christians" Did you just make that up off of the top of your head O'Reilly style? Basically you lied just to try to make a point. How very Republican of you.
Not that it will matter but your repeating that Buddhism has "dogma" doesn't make it so. Buddhism by its very essence has NO dogma.
Try reading a book instead of making ignorant statements about things you know nothing about.
Look, I'm not trying to convert you to Buddhism. Trying to convert someone to Buddhism would be totally unBuddhist. I'm only discussing Buddhism in response to the ignorance and misinformation that you seem so bound and determined to post. Otherwise I wouldn't have said a word about Buddhism or about being a Buddhist.
Blueflash
· 1 year ago
The Dalai Lama's brother laughed at that idea too, believe it or not. At the moment I was pretty taken aback . But it's a matter of not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Don't confuse a magnificent religion with the imperfections of its followers or the culture it's entrapped in. That can be said for Christianity, too, but what little was transmitted from Jesus amounts to a very very thin reed upon which little and much can be hung.
William kraal
· 1 year ago
DARLING THEY ARE HOKUS/POKUS IN ORANGE DRAG 24/7 !!
Blueflash
· 1 year ago
Look, Darling ( and I do thank you for calling me darling) this kind of knee-jerk attitude against spirituality won't get us too far and look also at the mystery of being that surrounds us. That's ours too. Do we gays really accomplish anything by denying that? We've been turned into outcasts by the "religious" but does that mean we have to turn into nihilists? We'll have lost and you can bet the haters will use that against us too.
another_steve
· 1 year ago
Yes, that's true for the most part--but equally true is the fact that we are our own worst enemies.
Every time I intentionally remain in the closet, I contribute to my own oppression. Don't fool yourself: If every queer--everywhere--came out of the closet, gay oppression would end overnight.
Most straights think they don't know a gay person they love or respect.
We are our own worst enemies.
William kraal
· 1 year ago
WELL SAID! RELIGION IS A TOTAL SCAM, HOKUS/POKUS 24/7 .
hawkseye
· 1 year ago
Excellent post, John.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
An interesting piece on Bill Condon, raised Irish Catholic (hmm), but very accomplished and rewarded well for it. Has a life partner--doesn't he want marriage? Pay attention to the last sentence in the piece. This is a UK site:
"It's a common mistake to think that anti-gay bigotry isn't really bigoted if the bigot's heart was in the right place."
It's more than a mistake; it's utterly irrelevant. All that matters here are the publically-observable bigoted behaviors, not some private internal unobservable ghost ex machina.
Blueflash
· 1 year ago
I'd love to see some Californians pull the legs out from under this kind of argument based, as it is, on hypocritical cherry picking of religious doctrines by collecting enough signatures to put a proposition on the ballot that would make divorce illegal. No less an authority than Paul in the New Testament states that the divorced are to be cast out of the church, which was tantamount to saying they're going to hell. I'd love to see how many of these cowardly Christians without the guts to admit their anti-gay prejudice and who use the bible as a pretext would welcome this restriction on THEIR lives and THEIR rights. If biblical passages are good for gays then they're good for straights. After that we can move on to Leviticus.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
Marie Osmond is divorced, and she's going straight to hell (guess her 8 kids are all "illegitimate" now, too). : )
LeftCoastOracle
· 1 year ago
I've thought about this but am concerned about vulnerable women who are victims of violence. As an alternative I'd like to propose that marriage be outlawed as a legal institution; that all people (regardless of sexual orientation) be required to have a civil union and that marriage become an optional religious ceremony. I believe it is done this way in the UK and it seems to work just fine.
It's time religious institutions be severed from legal ones and that we separate church and state completely.
Blueflash
· 1 year ago
How will we ever accomplish that? The religious right very much desires that government be an arm of the church. They'd fight tooth and nail against any unentanglement of the state and church in the matter of marriage and they'd probably win. Can't you hear it now? The gays want your sacred (heterosexual) marriages dragged down to their level!
LeftCoastOracle
· 1 year ago
Yes and wouldn't that sound nice, "...dragged down to their level." That's my point. exactly. Either they accept that marriage is a civil right or they accept that it's a religious right. They can't have it both ways. I'd love to defend that position in a statewide race. Let's have at it.
SCLiberal
· 1 year ago
I totally agree. Right now, two atheists can go to a justice of the peace and they are just as "married" as Billy and Ruth Graham. Religion is not required for marriage at all.
nicho
· 1 year ago
The odd thing was that they couldn;t even defend Prop H8 on biblical grounds. Their whole campaign was a tissue of lies. Almost every person-in-the-street who supported Prop H8 and was interviewed quoted a proven lie as their reason for voting against it.
One woman said she wasn't opposed to gay marriage herself, but didn't want her minister to be forced to perform them (one of the lies from the Prop H8 people).
Another guy said it would mean that kindergarten kids would be taught about homosexuality -- another purposeful lie.
Another guy said -- very strange -- that not voting for Prop H8 would mean that (his words) "every religious and secular tradition from the beginning of written history would be immoral."
Had the issue been fought on fact and logic -- and even the bible -- it would have failed. The only way the Prop H8 people won was to have religious leaders lie repeatedly to their congregations -- week after week after week.
Blueflash
· 1 year ago
Very true and it's frustrating that gay activists in California seem to have been caught off guard by such an entirely predictable and mendacious campaign. As one was quoted saying - we were surprised by the intensity of the opposition. The religious right lies and deceives as easily as a fish swims. Where had these people been these past thirty years? La La Land as an epithet for California has taken on even more meaning.
nicho
· 1 year ago
It was one thing to be caught off guard. But the real problem was there is no way to combat church-driven propaganda. You can run all the TV ads you want, but when the churches have a captive audience for weeks on end and are able to hammer home the propaganda endlessly, there is no real way to combat that.
The truth is, the churchgoers went to the best sources they knew - and those sources betrayed the trust put in them and lied to their people. That was an incredible moral evil -- spiritual abuse. It's on a par with sexual or physical abuse.
Blueflash
· 1 year ago
I console myself with the fact that gay marriage is all but irreversible in Massachusetts and won't be easily reversed in Connecticut where, so I've read, a constitutional convention would have to be called and they just rejected that proposition. It's also hard to imagine a state where citizens would be less susceptible to the hysterical lies and scare tactics of the religious right. It seems inevitable that someday it will occur to even the dimmest bulbs elsewhere that these states and their heterosexual population are no worse off for gay marriage. After four and a half years of gay marriage in Mass. it seems past time more of us were pointing that out. The proof is in the pudding.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 1 year ago
something bothers me about anecdotes like this. this is where Aravosis's comment is relevant. In a homophobic culture, bigotry is the passive response. in other words, it's safe to assume that if you don't actively examine your own attitudes, you are one of the bigots.
almost any amount of self examination by the guys you described would have made them vote against prop 8. why is it bad for youngsters to know that some people are gay? are there other examples of religious traditions that we now know to be immoral? having failed to ask and answer these questions, the people you mention are not innocent victims of propaganda. they embraced the propaganda, invited it into their lives, and are just as responsible for the consequences as people who don't have religion as an excuse.
As a beleaver and a gay women I run into people all the time the call them self christans. But when faced with the gay person, they are very quick to judge. My word to these people are (God did not die and apoit you as god) God loves is uncondtional ,so why aren" you unconditional?God Love is never ending!!!!!
William kraal
· 1 year ago
OH PLEEEZE JEZUS MOTHER MARIA GET A LIFE , RELIGION IS A TOTAL HOMOPHOBIC MONEY MAKING SCAM, HOKUS/POKUS ALL THE TIME! AVOID IT!!
tlsintx
· 1 year ago
beautiful post, John A.
Jon Kolaska
· 1 year ago
John, A question. Does the Salvation Army still have discriminatory policies toward gays? It's that time of year again when they are showing up at malls and asking for our support.
DavidinPS
· 1 year ago
Yes, they do. Put your money in some other pot.
SCLiberal
· 1 year ago
Yes they do. I got such a solicitation and wrote on it "I never donate to homophobic groups" and sent it back. I also make up little cards with similar sentiments to drop in their stupid buckets.
TampaZeke
· 1 year ago
Yes they do. In fact THIS YEAR one of the western areas agreed to pay domestic partner benefits to their employees but the national organization rescinded them post haste.
They also canceled a scheduled speech by Hillary Clinton at a SA gathering. They felt it was inappopriate for her to speak to their group because of her support for abortion rights and gay rights.
LeftCoastOracle
· 1 year ago
Right on! Couldn't have said it better myself. It's time we call a 'spade a spade' ( please excuse the phrase). Bigotry is bigotry regardless of where it rears its ugly head or from whose mouth.
And to all those who have said, "But I thought civil union granted the same rights as marriage." Your bigotry is showing.
nicho
· 1 year ago
Probably more ignorance on the civil union thing that outright bigotry. I've had some very good friends, who I know aren't bigots, be confused on the civil union/domestic partnership thing, until I explain it to them.
LeftCoastOracle
· 1 year ago
I'm sure they don't think they're bigoted but if they believe that civil union/domestic partnership is sufficient for gays while marriage is reserved for straights, they are prejudiced.
That's why i propose that we eliminate marriage as a legal construct. It would force people to consider whether they are willing to recognize marriage as an extra-legal, option. It would also force them to concede that legal unions are a civil right and must be available to 2 adults regardless of race, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation.
hollisterwelles
· 1 year ago
Bingo, John.
nicho
· 1 year ago
You know with the Mormons that it's a bigoted, political issue -- and not religious -- since they violated at least two of their own Articles of Faith in pushing this measure.
savagemike
· 1 year ago
This is just another reason why I believe Religion is the main thing holding us back as a species. Until we can accept the fact that blind devotion to a bunch of dusty old mythologies written thousands of years ago may no longer apply to the world we now live in, true equality and peace will never come to mankind.
William kraal
· 1 year ago
YES U ARE SO RIGHT ,RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING IT TOUCHES!
MGBYG
· 1 year ago
As a simple atheist, who was raised agnostic and is now raising my kids to be thinking individuals, I would like to comment from outside your bubble.
Silly, isn't it all? Some invisible dude in the sky with a beard told these people 'this' and those people 'that' and you all beat each other up (and us outside your bubble, but even more so) over it.
So you are holier than them for your actions and, yet, those who lined up, in their SUVs, outside Saddleback Church, this morning (blocking our passage as we bicycled to Irvine Lake) sure as hell believe they are right, too.
Sounds like children on the playground. Sticks-n-stones.
Homosexuality is biological.
Any zoologist trained outside Oklahoma will freely admit to 10-12% of like-sex coupling.
Just another reason to remember religion really means "to bind, to tie".
Its sad to see you all in-fighting... the LDS are as "nuts" to me as Roman Catholics and now they got together to actively hate 10-12% of Americans. Wow.
tlsintx
· 1 year ago
talk about your holier-than-thou...
Dave of the Jungle
· 1 year ago
Hatred of others is a self inflicted pain rooted in personal insecurity.
Mike_in_the_Tundra
· 1 year ago
Was three guys beating the sh*t out of me proof of bigotry? I sort of felt it was.
anarchy
· 1 year ago
well said, John - this is exactly the reason I love Americablog.
Helen Rainier
· 1 year ago
I am opposed to anything "organized" be it politics or religion. People use organized religion to justify their bigotry of any group they choose to to make themselves feel superior, when in reality, they really feel inferior. It's like the control freak who is so out of control of her or himself and believes that exerting control on everyone else they will then be in control of themselves. It's a bunch of cockamanie self-delusional paranoia.
Indigo
· 1 year ago
So many of the lower and semi-educated classes (that's what I said!) visualize marriage as a bridal pagent in a church that when the voters go to review a proposition that treats of gays and marriage, they can't imagine anything other than here-comes-the-bride. It's an extravaganza calculated to demonstrate wealth.
Marriage is not for everyone in many so-called third world countries, it's only for the wealthy who can afford the show. Okay, fine. No marriage should cost less than 100k, that's the rule of thumb, isn't it? It should be. If that's too much, let it go, just live together or get a civil contract at city hall or the county office.
SCLiberal
· 1 year ago
Name a time in human history when religion was NOT used to justify violence/hatred/bigotry.
Blueflash
· 1 year ago
Thanks for the link to the "Dr." Laura letter. That WAS fun. And just think - it's in the interest of US national security that Afghanistan have something other than heroin to export and who on earth has more stones. What an easy way to finally make peace with the Taliban!
TampaZeke
· 1 year ago
Excellent commentary John A.
I swear, my skin crawls when some of these "gay" "spokespeople" say such ignorant things. Melissa Ethridges wife made an equally ignorant comment on the Oprah Winfrey show. I could just see Melissa looking at her like, " what the fuh???"
She said, "...my family is totally against gay marriage but they respect my relationship with Melissa AND CALL HER MY WIFE..."
Whaa? What an ignorant, oxymoronic statement.
MaudGonne
· 1 year ago
a man from Birmingham who was one of the world's most wanted, Rashid Rauf. How had a 27-year-old former bakery delivery boy, who once took iced buns around the streets of Bordesley Green, come to be regarded as the mastermind of a deadly al-Qa'ida plot? What was the truth about his mysterious escape from police custody a year ago? And what was he doing there in North Waziristan, meeting such an extraordinary end? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/th...
davidi92260
· 1 year ago
This is well stated John! Well done.
Jeffreyxyz
· 1 year ago
I am so glad you caught that, John. I am writing to the LA times about it and you summed up exactly what I thought. How can he say "'Do we take discrimination against gays as seriously as bigotry against African Americans and Jews?' 'Of course we do.' And then go on to defend his pal's donation to Yes on 8???? If the guy had donated money to a campaign to strip civil rights from African Americans or Jews, Condon would be running the other way as fast as he could. The guy tendered his resignation after it was revealed he had given to Yes on 8 and Condon (and all the others on the board) actually voted to KEEP the bigot on!! With friends like Condon and Elton John flapping their gums... Gack!
Boycottutah
· 1 year ago
Excellent post. Thank you so much for saying what needs to be said.
Sinister
· 1 year ago
Right on.
SociologistTina
· 1 year ago
Strong statement, great arguments. I'm glad you're putting this in the forefront.
All Comments
This is also precisely the sort of issue on which the Radio Republicans are liable to overplay their hand, missing the fact that Americans are capable of finer points of distinction than "Gay People Bad!", and that there is a sizable swing vote that is ready to see gays and lesbians serve in the army, even if they aren't ready to see them get married or adopt babies. Let the Radio Republicans wallow in their own insignificance.
Put differently, if Obama can't get a DADT repeal passed, then good luck with something like universal health insurance, which though also supported by solid majorities of the public, is not at 75 percent support, and will be met with much, much more vigorous resistance from lobbying groups.
-- Nate Silver at 4:21 PM
Dave
Viet Vet
and old gay dude
Speak for yourself. I may be a Southern, white, straight male raised in a bigoted, white-male society, but I, for one, AM NOT more tolerant of intolerance when the target is gay.
Condon is giving more weight to religion than it ever deserved. Does he know anything at all about the Constitution?
I mean think about it.
You grow up all your life living with people telling you that gays are 'bad'.
Then you hit puberty, and suddenly, you realize you're one of the 'bad' people you've heard jokes against, little kids screaming Ewww You're So Gay!", and how the 'cool' kids had fun going out and throwing beer bottles at gay people near the local gay bar.
Yea, that can take time to get past, and I've seen it show up in how gay people I've known have behaved.
Others have gotten past it and become the stronger for it too.
This person does not sound like he's gotten past that point. If he has, then it's on a very slippery edge when it comes to how he thinks of himself as a gay human being and religion.
Just a thought to consider.
no matter what.
My sign at the last protest said "Say NO to BIGOTRY". I think this statement is one which all agree upon. I stood at the end of a line of 15 or so. The oldsters walking by would sort of nod their heads when they read my sign, one man said "no", which was very sweet. A nice family of blond girls stopped to see my Xolo.
But then others would go on in silence, reading other signs, when they realized it was about GLBT rights. HUMMM. They slunk off in shame? No comment, hahah
Many of the foundational texts of many religions are full of crap. We all know how the Bible is 'cherry picked' and it is the same for the Quran and other 'good books' as well. I am a deeply spiritual person, but I have to ask - why the fuck do so many of you continue to label yourselves Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Moslems, etc? How can any of you read these books? If I had children, I would never let them read the Bible which is full of vile stories - daughters seducing their drunken fathers, brothers killing brothers, etc.
I refuse to try to 'reason' with those who hate me. I question those who call themselves 'gay Christians' who are just as guilty of 'cherry picking' as those who hate gays. Is your cherry picking better than theirs? If God is so powerful, how come he didn't create a succinct PowerPoint presentation for us, instead of the muddled, violent, pornographic pile of crap called the Bible?
Again, the bottom line is that religion is the root homophobia. Period.
This is TOLERANCE, not ACCEPTANCE, which is the basis of the words 'they' and 'them' - 2 of the most harmful words/concepts in humans. And this from the religion whose adherents slaughtered 67,000 Christians in Japan some centuries back and whose monks continue to fight amongst each other to this day. Sorry, Buddhism gets no pass from me.
The Dalai Lama is NOT the authority of Buddhism. In fact most Buddhist don't even consider him to be AN authority. He is a very well known and popular monk/abbot (with all the normal faults and biases that any monk may have. To most Buddhist he is nothing more than that. The VAST majority of Buddhist DO NOT consider the Dalai Lama as the reincarnation of the Buddha (or even a particularly enlightened monk for that matter). He is the leader of the Vajrayana path (a branch of the Mahayana path) of Buddhism, one of MANY paths, and no where near the largest.
The Therevada path of Buddhism is seen as the path that most closely follows the original teachings of Lord Sakyamuni Gautama Buddha through his vast collection of suttas.
There is NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING in the suttas that condemns, disuades or speaks negatively of homosexuality. The only time Lord Buddha prohibited homosexual sex was for monks and nuns who were supposed to be celibate. The rule was no different for heterosexual monks and nuns. It's pretty clear that some of the Buddha's highest disciples were gay
This is NOT an issue of cherry picking. You can't cherry pick something that DOES NOT EXIST in the text.
Now, YOU HAVE cherry picked even in your short quote. You didn't bother to print the sentence that DIRECTLY followed the quote you printed here. In the following sentence, the Dalai Lama said that he was stating HIS OPINION ONLY and that there was NO sutta or scriptural reference to back up his statement.
Try reading at least a basic introduction to Buddhism before you profess to make such ignorant claims about what the "religion" says and does not say.
Buddha simply taught how people could find peace and happiness and share loving kindness. He SPECIFICALLY tells his followers MANY times in the Suttas to ALWAYS question, never take ANYTHING for face value no matter WHO tells you, INCLUDING Buddha himself. He DEMANDED that his disciples and those who follow the dhamma that he revealed in his suttas to QUESTION him and believe NOTHING that he or anyone else says it goes contrary to their own knowledge and understanding.
So, strangely enough it was Buddha himself who first stated "START THINKING FOR YOURSELF!" and he said it about 2600 years before you declared it You're a little late with that advice.
Regardless, these belief systems, when confined to the church, temple, synagogue, mosque, are just peachy by me. But unfortunately, they are all part of the Religion Industrial Complex, Inc. If the what the Dalai Lama said was so outrageous, where was the outcry from other Buddhist monks? When monks try to kill each other, where is the criticism? Where is the apology for killing tens of thousands of Christians? Or do you all just look the other way? Sorry, I support your right to be as superstitious as any Mormon, Catholic, Moslem, Jew, Jain, etc in your belief systems. But don't ask me to think that it is anything other than a collective mental illness.
I would also be curious to know how many monks YOU talked to about the Dalai Lama's statement. Monks, other than the Dalai Lama, DON'T do press conferences and don't go door to door like Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses giving their opinions on things and trying to convert people to Buddhism. Buddhism does NOT proselytize. So unless you actually went to a monk and asked his opinion on the Dalai Lama’s screed you wouldn't know what their opinion was. From what I gather from your hostility to Buddhism I can't imagine that you did that. To set the record straight for you, EVERY monk I spoke with condemned the Dalai Lama's statement and made it very clear that they don't see him as anything more than another monk with a PERSONAL bias that is NOT backed up by Buddhist scriptures. There’s not even a scripture that can be twisted, taken out of context or spun to condemn homosexuality. It simply does not exist.
I think if you just took the time, as an INTELLECTUAL rather than spiritual pursuit, to study Buddhism and the teachings of the Buddha you just might be surprised and amazed that it is NOTHING like what you think. It is NOT a religion; it is a life philosophy that was shared by other great philosophers like Plato and Socrates. Do you also have harsh and negative feelings toward these great philosophers? Buddha was/is NOT a god, no matter how much ignorant westerners might want to believe that Buddhist believe such. Buddha was NOTHING more than a HUMAN who "got it". Buddhists do not worship Buddha or any other god. We don’t believe in a god. We simply honor and pay homage to Buddha for his great insights into life and how to attain happiness and wellbeing. We also honor, but do not worship, other "bodhisattvas" who "got it" like Jesus, Gandhi, MLK Jr., etc.
Buddha was an EXTRAORDINARY man who was enlightened about the human nature and the universe in a way that was centuries, even thousands of years before his time. Buddha, over 2500 years ago, described the UNIVERSE in great detail. Some things that he spoke of have only been discovered in the last fifty to 100 years. He also understood the world on a microscopic level. He held up a cup of water and told his disciples that even though it was beyond their comprehension the cup of water contained thousands of living beings.
One more thing, unlike the Bible with all its contradictions and scientifically proven errors, the Buddhist suttas, even though they are over seven times larger than the Bible do not contain contradiction and do not have anti-scientific claims barring the stories that were specifically embellished to help the uneducated and highly superstitious people of India at the time understand them better. Buddha himself acknowledged when this was done and explained why. He presented his parables or fables in ways that the masses were used to relating. Even the story of his birth was embellished for the benefit of relating to the Hindu and Brahman masses. But once again, the Buddha himself acknowledges this.
If nothing more Buddhism is an amazing study in philosophy, human nature and the difference between real, enduring happiness and the perceived happiness that comes, temporarily, from attachments to uncertain and impermanent people, places and things.
Not that it will matter but your repeating that Buddhism has "dogma" doesn't make it so. Buddhism by its very essence has NO dogma.
Try reading a book instead of making ignorant statements about things you know nothing about.
Look, I'm not trying to convert you to Buddhism. Trying to convert someone to Buddhism would be totally unBuddhist. I'm only discussing Buddhism in response to the ignorance and misinformation that you seem so bound and determined to post. Otherwise I wouldn't have said a word about Buddhism or about being a Buddhist.
Every time I intentionally remain in the closet, I contribute to my own oppression. Don't fool yourself: If every queer--everywhere--came out of the closet, gay oppression would end overnight.
Most straights think they don't know a gay person they love or respect.
We are our own worst enemies.
www.gayfortoday.blogspot.com/2007/10/bill-condo...
It's more than a mistake; it's utterly irrelevant. All that matters here are the publically-observable bigoted behaviors, not some private internal unobservable ghost ex machina.
It's time religious institutions be severed from legal ones and that we separate church and state completely.
One woman said she wasn't opposed to gay marriage herself, but didn't want her minister to be forced to perform them (one of the lies from the Prop H8 people).
Another guy said it would mean that kindergarten kids would be taught about homosexuality -- another purposeful lie.
Another guy said -- very strange -- that not voting for Prop H8 would mean that (his words) "every religious and secular tradition from the beginning of written history would be immoral."
Had the issue been fought on fact and logic -- and even the bible -- it would have failed. The only way the Prop H8 people won was to have religious leaders lie repeatedly to their congregations -- week after week after week.
The truth is, the churchgoers went to the best sources they knew - and those sources betrayed the trust put in them and lied to their people. That was an incredible moral evil -- spiritual abuse. It's on a par with sexual or physical abuse.
almost any amount of self examination by the guys you described would have made them vote against prop 8. why is it bad for youngsters to know that some people are gay? are there other examples of religious traditions that we now know to be immoral? having failed to ask and answer these questions, the people you mention are not innocent victims of propaganda. they embraced the propaganda, invited it into their lives, and are just as responsible for the consequences as people who don't have religion as an excuse.
A question. Does the Salvation Army still have discriminatory policies toward gays? It's that time of year again when they are showing up at malls and asking for our support.
They also canceled a scheduled speech by Hillary Clinton at a SA gathering. They felt it was inappopriate for her to speak to their group because of her support for abortion rights and gay rights.
And to all those who have said, "But I thought civil union granted the same rights as marriage." Your bigotry is showing.
That's why i propose that we eliminate marriage as a legal construct. It would force people to consider whether they are willing to recognize marriage as an extra-legal, option. It would also force them to concede that legal unions are a civil right and must be available to 2 adults regardless of race, religion, nationality, or sexual orientation.
Silly, isn't it all? Some invisible dude in the sky with a beard told these people 'this' and those people 'that' and you all beat each other up (and us outside your bubble, but even more so) over it.
So you are holier than them for your actions and, yet, those who lined up, in their SUVs, outside Saddleback Church, this morning (blocking our passage as we bicycled to Irvine Lake) sure as hell believe they are right, too.
Sounds like children on the playground. Sticks-n-stones.
Homosexuality is biological.
Any zoologist trained outside Oklahoma will freely admit to 10-12% of like-sex coupling.
http://www.livescience.com/bestimg/index.php?ur...
Just another reason to remember religion really means "to bind, to tie".
Its sad to see you all in-fighting... the LDS are as "nuts" to me as Roman Catholics and now they got together to actively hate 10-12% of Americans. Wow.
Marriage is not for everyone in many so-called third world countries, it's only for the wealthy who can afford the show. Okay, fine. No marriage should cost less than 100k, that's the rule of thumb, isn't it? It should be. If that's too much, let it go, just live together or get a civil contract at city hall or the county office.
I swear, my skin crawls when some of these "gay" "spokespeople" say such ignorant things. Melissa Ethridges wife made an equally ignorant comment on the Oprah Winfrey show. I could just see Melissa looking at her like, " what the fuh???"
She said, "...my family is totally against gay marriage but they respect my relationship with Melissa AND CALL HER MY WIFE..."
Whaa? What an ignorant, oxymoronic statement.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/th...
How can he say "'Do we take discrimination against gays as seriously as bigotry against African Americans and Jews?' 'Of course we do.' And then go on to defend his pal's donation to Yes on 8???? If the guy had donated money to a campaign to strip civil rights from African Americans or Jews, Condon would be running the other way as fast as he could. The guy tendered his resignation after it was revealed he had given to Yes on 8 and Condon (and all the others on the board) actually voted to KEEP the bigot on!! With friends like Condon and Elton John flapping their gums...
Gack!