it's about time. nice work JA.. it's really obvious now, imo, that the folks in charge of no on 8 didn't really know what they were doing. what they were thinking and why should always be remembered.
B
· 1 year ago
In psychology, this is called one-trial learning. The California Supreme Court legalized same-sex marriage in May, and not long after, the ballot initiative that became Proposition 8 came into existence. "We" (defined as anyone supporting marriage equality) all had to act quickly, and think on our feet.
I thought many of the No on 8 ads were actually excellent (did you see the one narrated by Samuel L. Jackson? - look it up on YouTube). But the enemy -- as it was in Montgomery, Alabama in Rosa Parks' time -- was great, and had the backing of thousands of years of nasty human tradition and religious belief.
It's too easy to be a Monday-morning quarterback. I want to say to critics of "the folks in charge of no on 8" (I was not one, by the way -- I'm not even in Calif.): What did you do personally to help prevent 8 from passing? If you thought something wasn't being managed well, did you say or do something at the time? I have no personal connection to any gay rights organization in California or nationally, but this is really a pet peeve of mine. It's like saying to Clarence Darrow, "How dare you lose the Scopes trial!" (While this is fiction, Atticus Finch, in To Kill a Mockingbird lost his trial -- very realistically -- as well.) Sometimes, with perfectly good tactics, even brilliant tactics, the opposition is simply too great to overcome. Don't forget, they have money and passion of their own. They had backing from the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church, and other conservative churches. None of these forces is trifling. And, simply, homophobia in the culture still exists. It's been waning, but plenty of it still exists.
Imagine the Calif. Supreme Court legalized same sex marriage in 1984, not 2008. Imagine there was a Prop 8 in 1984 to overturn it. Imagine there were several organizations working for No on 8, and millions of dollars contributed to those organizations. But Prop 8 still loses. Do you then, say, "Oh the folks in charge didn't know what they were doing! They were so stupid!" How about, instead: In 1984, hatred of gay people was extremely popular, and very well accepted, and the odds were simply tough.
In 2008, hatred of gay people was less popular than it was in 1984, but there is still PUH-LENTY of it to go around. Apparently there was enough for Prop 8 to win by a small margin.
Is it smart to then go, "Oh, No on 8 didn't know what it was doing"? I seriously question the wisdom, or fairness, in doing so.
I have training in systems engineering, and simplistic or superficial thinking about causality really bugs me.
Anyway, I say: We have work to do; hearts and minds to change; laws to change.
Onward.
PeerOne
· 1 year ago
Excellent viewpoint and comments.
AdmNaismith
· 1 year ago
The Prop was in existanse long before the CA Supremes ruled. The Prop people even tried to get a stay on the ruling to prevent any marriages over the summer (and the creation of Gay goodwill) until after the election. This meant they had to lie that much harder inthe vampaign. the No on 8 people were not blindsided by anything- the No campaign was just too little, to slowly.
RainbowPhoenix
· 1 year ago
Except one of them said how shocked they were by the ads. Like I said, it raises questions.
RainbowPhoenix
· 1 year ago
You brought up excellent points, but there's really no excuse for being blindsided the way the were. For decades, the religious right has been using the same arguments that were used in their campaign. It raises legitimate questions about how our "leaders" didn't see it coming.
B
· 1 year ago
Yes. The game's over. Like it was, on that day, for Rosa Parks.
The 9/11 hijackers had private religious beliefs, acted on them, and thought they were doing something good and righteous.
Private religious beliefs are absolutely no justification for the heinousness of 9/11, just as they are no justification for the heinousness of ripping away a minority's civil rights.
Remember Rosa.
scytherius
· 1 year ago
Oh fuck their religious beliefs. We are done with religious tolerance.
Brad
· 1 year ago
Religion is not a "get out of personal/social responsibility free" card. Being religious, in itself, is no virtue, anymore than being retarded is.
unrepentant_expat
· 1 year ago
Slightly OT but I guess the thread can handle the traffic. Look at the contrast north of the border...
PRINCE ALBERT, Sask. - A marriage commissioner is suing the Saskatchewan government after being fined $2,500 for refusing to marry a gay couple.
A Saskatchewan human rights tribunal cited Orville Nichols for discrimination in May for refusing to perform the same-sex marriage. Nichols told the tribunal last year that he refused to marry the couple in 2005 because it went against his Baptist faith.
Actually, the marriage commissioner took the job and swore to uphold the law, that is to marry people. Now, he is claiming that he can violate his oath because of his higher obligation to God's law. That's bullshit. If he cannot perform the duties of his office, then he should resign his office and allow someone who respects the law to occupy that office.
HillbillyTN
· 1 year ago
Privately held religious beliefs have nothing to do with my public civil rights.
cmoorehead
· 1 year ago
It's my privately-held religious belief that Mormonism is a cult, and should be stripped of any tax-exempt status they hold. Such things are the exclusive privilege of legitimate religions.
Actually, the above is simply a statement of fact. It's my privately-held religious belief that these assholes should have been exterminated by the US Army immediately after the Mountain Meadows Massacre...
Elbaba
· 1 year ago
you know, I had never heard of the Mountain Meadows masscre until just now. I have seen it pop up a few times here on Ablog since prop 8 but before actually reading about it online a few moments ago after reading your post above, I had no idea what it was about.
I am so insanely pissed off right now. This is exactly the type of corruption and deceit along with inherently evil nature that should be avoided in any religion or supposedly religious group. I think in order to fight back, we have to hit them where it would hurt the most and that is their pocket. How? Well, their success lies in their secrecy. I am not a mormon, I am a catholic by birth but a non-denominational by nature and I had never heard of this. I can imagine many people have not heard of this either (which is ironic because we live in the information age but are dumber than a heap of sticks - perhaps because of too much information? but we can talk about that another time). The point I'm trying to make is that the gay movement will prevail against religious oppression if we do what they do, mobilize to dissiminate information except use their dirty little secrets to sway people from ultimately joining or staying in their church. You take away their money, you take away their power... do it Jehova's witness style.. just hand out stuff that has info.. people will read it, will remember it.. look it up online like I did and hopefully think like I did/do.
Thank you for enlightening me... I will spreading this info to everyone I know.
Happy Thanksgiving to all!
pdxprobert
· 1 year ago
Don't forget about the various Inquisitions by other sects of Christianity... in particular, the Spanish Inquisition.. Organized religion has a dirty little side to it that has been responsible for hundreds of 1000's of deaths and often times in the most gruesome of manners...When people wear a crucifix around their neck, they are really wearing an instrument of death.. The Romans crucified 1000's of people annually... Roads were lined with crucified people to show what could happen to you...
When we see what politicians and world leaders enable under the guise of religion and faith, how can we claim to be civilized? And how in reality can we look at a world leader that says he's a Christian without a questioning and perplexed look on our face, fully well knowing that to call yourself a Christian means you believe in the Christ story.. Christ was born to a virgin named Mary.. Virgins by definition can't give birth... The Adam and Eve story promotes incest and so does the Noah and the Ark story... how can adults believe these myths.. I can understand children believing them, but how can adults that work in the sciences and make critical decisions of life and death like judges, doctors and lawyers not question the lunacy behind the archaic belief systems of our past... Why is science so frightening to believers? Because it proves they are wrong... If many of the people of faith can't be civil to other people without the thought of some vengeful god striking them dead, just realize what will be enabled if any sort of movement takes hold that really does show believers they were severely mistaken.. That Heaven and Hell are really places on Earth... Think about the experience that many people in Rhwanda had when they were hacked to death and what about the Jews in the Nazi death camps.. What kind of hell was that? And what about the origins of the word faggot and how it became associated with homosexuals... homosexuals were bound and placed in the kindling of fires set to burn suspected witches at the stake, another product of faith... fag is an old english term referring to a burning stick, hence how homosexuals came to be called faggots...
ps - I was born pure, baptized Catholic, made my first communion, attended catechism and was confirmed at age 13... I never understood how men could be born from virgins or the Adam and Eve story.. I mean, who did Cain, Abel and Seth have carnal relations with to further populate the world to where we are today? It only leaves Mary, their mother and any possible sisters that may have been produced... How do you feel about those beginnings?
I think those oogedy boogedy stories told in the bible are crap and the works of some very creative individuals who were probably bored and came up with a fun way to play around with people.
I also think that you missed my point entirely and fixated on my comment about being born to a catholic family but perhaps I was not clear enough so I will try again. I am non-denominational by nature but not a non-denominational christian; I am a non-denominational individual as in not aligning with anyone particular religion, period. I don't doubt that religion has been the root of so many worldly problems and that is why I champion none. I do, however, think that some people of true faith are often lumped in with the religious extremists. My mother, for instance... she is catholic and prays to god every night, she prays for hope, for health, for strength, for guidance and for peace. She is the most selfless woman I have ever met in my life and does not judge people by who they are, what color they are, what they have or lack, or any of those things. She measures people based on their actions. She believes that you should always be a good person to everyone, not because it is what the bible says but it is what she feels in her heart and gives her peace and happiness. She is a faithful person who doesn't see color, gender, sexual orientation or anything of the sort... she sees people and helps them whenever she can. Do I agree with her on God? no.. but I cannot take away the positive effect her god has had on her.
I was born and grew up in a "3rd world" country... borderline poor then came to the US where we were then a nickle and two pennies away from homeless. A priest in a church my mother attended here helped me by teaching me to speak English, gave me a job to do on weekends so I wouldn't get in trouble while my mother worked, scolded me when I got in trouble in school, helped me study for my final exams in high school and even helped me cope with coming out to my parents. Never once pushing his beliefs or the church on me, only helping me because he felt I needed his help.
Faith and spirituality are very different from religiosity... there are a lot of people, like myself, who are faithful and spiritual without being religious... and there are quite a few of those in churches (of any religion) as well.
I understand
pdxprobert
· 1 year ago
i just fixated on the fact that the mountain meadows story was just one of 1000s of massacres done in the name of religion and a my god is better than your god belief system.... the other stuff was just me pontificating...
I just related to you about my Catholic upbringing because of how you said you were born Catholic.. my understanding of catholicism is we are born with the burden of the original sin and we are baptized into the Catholic faith to be absolved of that disposition... its all hocus pocus though... I may not attend church or believe in the doctrine any longer, but i cant deny it was how i was brought up and its influence on me as an adult.. of all the religions to be indoctrinated into, if I had to do it again I would still choose catholicism... i liked the pagentry of the mass as i grew older as well as the ornateness of some of the churches..... its just as we grow more knowledgable and the myths don't make sense, its hold doesnt stick...i think thats why so many people claim to be ex-catholics.... when i meet another catholic, its like we have a shared bond.. maybe thats why religion has a great control on the people.. its that bonding thing...
Elbaba
· 1 year ago
ah! sorry...kinda late and understanding is difficult when my brain is tired. for the record, i agree w/ what you've said, just didn't want you to thinki was defending catholicism.
happy thanksgiving!! :)
Steve_in_CNJ
· 1 year ago
savage is saying it is now okay to reject the religious pretext for homophobia. i'm not sure who he is talking about. when was it not okay? does he expect edwards and obama (for example) to suddenly realize they were wrong to invoke religion to oppose gay marriage? is this a diagnosis of the national mindset or just a personal manifesto?
Dave Porter
· 1 year ago
It is certainly interesting to see how "deeply held religious beliefs" melt away when the person justifying his or her bigotry has to actually pay any sort of price. Bullies - just bullies, looking for someone to pick on. Ram it back down their throats and they run home, crying all the way.
skeptic
· 1 year ago
It takes a lot of work and a lot of time to get over "religion", but it is well worth the effort to divest ourselves of the shackles of religiosity.
I always marvel at the tenacity of God belief that I still encounter within myself. This is due to a number of formative years under the nuns regime. Conditioning is difficult to let go of.
AdrianBrowne
· 1 year ago
"That's my personal religious belief."
Like Dick Cheney said, "So?"
Butch1
· 1 year ago
Bravo, Dan Savage!
AdmNaismith
· 1 year ago
Can we formally make Dan Savage the Patron Saint of Gay, He's about the only one talking straight, as it were, about all of this and can actually get time on CNN and the like.
Freddie
· 1 year ago
Plus- his voice is clear and strong enough that he overpowers the jerks who are usually trying to drown him out.
shanobama
· 1 year ago
John and Dan should go on the Huckabee Show.
Respectfully tell him the history of gay civil unrest, make him defend the Mormons.
sherifffruitfly
· 1 year ago
It seems that hate and cowardice always go hand in hand.
Brandon Flowers is an annoying blowhard who likes to bore us with sanctimonious lectures on the brilliance of musicians (Springsteen, Joy Division, etc) that many of us were listening to when he was in diapers. I do wish he'd get himself a copy of Iggy Pop's "The Idiot" and Werner Herzog's "Stroszek"...
All Comments
I thought many of the No on 8 ads were actually excellent (did you see the one narrated by Samuel L. Jackson? - look it up on YouTube). But the enemy -- as it was in Montgomery, Alabama in Rosa Parks' time -- was great, and had the backing of thousands of years of nasty human tradition and religious belief.
It's too easy to be a Monday-morning quarterback. I want to say to critics of "the folks in charge of no on 8" (I was not one, by the way -- I'm not even in Calif.): What did you do personally to help prevent 8 from passing? If you thought something wasn't being managed well, did you say or do something at the time? I have no personal connection to any gay rights organization in California or nationally, but this is really a pet peeve of mine. It's like saying to Clarence Darrow, "How dare you lose the Scopes trial!" (While this is fiction, Atticus Finch, in To Kill a Mockingbird lost his trial -- very realistically -- as well.) Sometimes, with perfectly good tactics, even brilliant tactics, the opposition is simply too great to overcome. Don't forget, they have money and passion of their own. They had backing from the Mormon Church, the Catholic Church, and other conservative churches. None of these forces is trifling. And, simply, homophobia in the culture still exists. It's been waning, but plenty of it still exists.
Imagine the Calif. Supreme Court legalized same sex marriage in 1984, not 2008. Imagine there was a Prop 8 in 1984 to overturn it. Imagine there were several organizations working for No on 8, and millions of dollars contributed to those organizations. But Prop 8 still loses. Do you then, say, "Oh the folks in charge didn't know what they were doing! They were so stupid!" How about, instead: In 1984, hatred of gay people was extremely popular, and very well accepted, and the odds were simply tough.
In 2008, hatred of gay people was less popular than it was in 1984, but there is still PUH-LENTY of it to go around. Apparently there was enough for Prop 8 to win by a small margin.
Is it smart to then go, "Oh, No on 8 didn't know what it was doing"? I seriously question the wisdom, or fairness, in doing so.
I have training in systems engineering, and simplistic or superficial thinking about causality really bugs me.
Anyway, I say: We have work to do; hearts and minds to change; laws to change.
Onward.
This meant they had to lie that much harder inthe vampaign. the No on 8 people were not blindsided by anything- the No campaign was just too little, to slowly.
The 9/11 hijackers had private religious beliefs, acted on them, and thought they were doing something good and righteous.
Private religious beliefs are absolutely no justification for the heinousness of 9/11, just as they are no justification for the heinousness of ripping away a minority's civil rights.
Remember Rosa.
Being religious, in itself, is no virtue, anymore than being retarded is.
PRINCE ALBERT, Sask. - A marriage commissioner is suing the Saskatchewan government after being fined $2,500 for refusing to marry a gay couple.
A Saskatchewan human rights tribunal cited Orville Nichols for discrimination in May for refusing to perform the same-sex marriage. Nichols told the tribunal last year that he refused to marry the couple in 2005 because it went against his Baptist faith.
http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/sask_same_se...
Actually, the above is simply a statement of fact. It's my privately-held religious belief that these assholes should have been exterminated by the US Army immediately after the Mountain Meadows Massacre...
I am so insanely pissed off right now. This is exactly the type of corruption and deceit along with inherently evil nature that should be avoided in any religion or supposedly religious group. I think in order to fight back, we have to hit them where it would hurt the most and that is their pocket. How? Well, their success lies in their secrecy. I am not a mormon, I am a catholic by birth but a non-denominational by nature and I had never heard of this. I can imagine many people have not heard of this either (which is ironic because we live in the information age but are dumber than a heap of sticks - perhaps because of too much information? but we can talk about that another time). The point I'm trying to make is that the gay movement will prevail against religious oppression if we do what they do, mobilize to dissiminate information except use their dirty little secrets to sway people from ultimately joining or staying in their church. You take away their money, you take away their power... do it Jehova's witness style.. just hand out stuff that has info.. people will read it, will remember it.. look it up online like I did and hopefully think like I did/do.
Thank you for enlightening me... I will spreading this info to everyone I know.
Happy Thanksgiving to all!
When we see what politicians and world leaders enable under the guise of religion and faith, how can we claim to be civilized? And how in reality can we look at a world leader that says he's a Christian without a questioning and perplexed look on our face, fully well knowing that to call yourself a Christian means you believe in the Christ story.. Christ was born to a virgin named Mary.. Virgins by definition can't give birth... The Adam and Eve story promotes incest and so does the Noah and the Ark story... how can adults believe these myths.. I can understand children believing them, but how can adults that work in the sciences and make critical decisions of life and death like judges, doctors and lawyers not question the lunacy behind the archaic belief systems of our past... Why is science so frightening to believers? Because it proves they are wrong... If many of the people of faith can't be civil to other people without the thought of some vengeful god striking them dead, just realize what will be enabled if any sort of movement takes hold that really does show believers they were severely mistaken.. That Heaven and Hell are really places on Earth... Think about the experience that many people in Rhwanda had when they were hacked to death and what about the Jews in the Nazi death camps.. What kind of hell was that? And what about the origins of the word faggot and how it became associated with homosexuals... homosexuals were bound and placed in the kindling of fires set to burn suspected witches at the stake, another product of faith... fag is an old english term referring to a burning stick, hence how homosexuals came to be called faggots...
ps - I was born pure, baptized Catholic, made my first communion, attended catechism and was confirmed at age 13... I never understood how men could be born from virgins or the Adam and Eve story.. I mean, who did Cain, Abel and Seth have carnal relations with to further populate the world to where we are today? It only leaves Mary, their mother and any possible sisters that may have been produced... How do you feel about those beginnings?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
I also think that you missed my point entirely and fixated on my comment about being born to a catholic family but perhaps I was not clear enough so I will try again. I am non-denominational by nature but not a non-denominational christian; I am a non-denominational individual as in not aligning with anyone particular religion, period. I don't doubt that religion has been the root of so many worldly problems and that is why I champion none. I do, however, think that some people of true faith are often lumped in with the religious extremists. My mother, for instance... she is catholic and prays to god every night, she prays for hope, for health, for strength, for guidance and for peace. She is the most selfless woman I have ever met in my life and does not judge people by who they are, what color they are, what they have or lack, or any of those things. She measures people based on their actions. She believes that you should always be a good person to everyone, not because it is what the bible says but it is what she feels in her heart and gives her peace and happiness. She is a faithful person who doesn't see color, gender, sexual orientation or anything of the sort... she sees people and helps them whenever she can. Do I agree with her on God? no.. but I cannot take away the positive effect her god has had on her.
I was born and grew up in a "3rd world" country... borderline poor then came to the US where we were then a nickle and two pennies away from homeless. A priest in a church my mother attended here helped me by teaching me to speak English, gave me a job to do on weekends so I wouldn't get in trouble while my mother worked, scolded me when I got in trouble in school, helped me study for my final exams in high school and even helped me cope with coming out to my parents. Never once pushing his beliefs or the church on me, only helping me because he felt I needed his help.
Faith and spirituality are very different from religiosity... there are a lot of people, like myself, who are faithful and spiritual without being religious... and there are quite a few of those in churches (of any religion) as well.
I understand
I just related to you about my Catholic upbringing because of how you said you were born Catholic.. my understanding of catholicism is we are born with the burden of the original sin and we are baptized into the Catholic faith to be absolved of that disposition... its all hocus pocus though... I may not attend church or believe in the doctrine any longer, but i cant deny it was how i was brought up and its influence on me as an adult.. of all the religions to be indoctrinated into, if I had to do it again I would still choose catholicism... i liked the pagentry of the mass as i grew older as well as the ornateness of some of the churches..... its just as we grow more knowledgable and the myths don't make sense, its hold doesnt stick...i think thats why so many people claim to be ex-catholics.... when i meet another catholic, its like we have a shared bond.. maybe thats why religion has a great control on the people.. its that bonding thing...
happy thanksgiving!! :)
Bullies - just bullies, looking for someone to pick on. Ram it back down their throats and they run home, crying all the way.
I always marvel at the tenacity of God belief that I still encounter within myself. This is due to a number of formative years under the nuns regime. Conditioning is difficult to let go of.
Like Dick Cheney said, "So?"
Respectfully tell him the history of gay civil unrest, make him defend the Mormons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Killers_(band)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Flowers