AMERICAblog: In new video, Rick Warren accuses gays of "hateful attacks," "hate speech," "Christ-ophobia," and of being "evil"
Jay
· 11 months ago
What a pig.
IrishLib
· 11 months ago
The religious right and their hateful constituency are beginning a huge backlash against the small amount of progress that has been made in this country (see Gang Rape of lesbian in California--http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/22/lesbians-gang-rape-shocks_n_153014.html). What really kills me is that Obama's choice of Rick Warren is being hailed as "bringing all parties to the table." But, you can't bring people to the table who are patently malicious to others at the table and call that "unity."
I am all for everyone having a voice. We all know that the hatemongers have had their voices heard for the last eight years. Why, oh why are we giving them the pulpit AGAIN when what this country needs is someone who is going to actively work for equality, not pay lipservice to it? The GLBT community has every right to be offended by this decision. Now, I don't intend to walk out of the theatre before the show has started, but the overture is thusfar unimpressive...
Indigo
· 11 months ago
The Christian Reich has a pattern of taking the rhetoric of their critics and turning it around. Thus a hate speech advocate like the Rev. Rick Warren pretends that by naming his use of hate speech, we use hate speech. That's childish. You did it! No, you did it! You did it! No, you did it! That's all they have.
Well, we can move on and raise the tone. Now in the Rev. Rick Warren's use of the name of Christ to advance his political agenda is the will to set the Constitution aside and abolish the separation of church and state. Mr. Obama apparently supports that agenda and so we now have two presidents in a row who hold the Constitution to be "just a piece of paper."
Mr. Obama . . . put your shirt on.
dad
· 11 months ago
8-16 years of the religious right
this is change?
K
· 11 months ago
Obama's blunder has just gone from bad to very, very much worse:
Gay Americans were slighted by Obama when he picked Warren. Now, Obama's complicit in Warren's damning of us.
Ginger_FL
· 11 months ago
Progressives have been slighted as well.....
This is why I was very slow to come over to Obama...his voting record showed him to be anything BUT a progressive.....
and I worked my A$$ off helping him get elected here in Dumbstick-istan NW Florida !!!
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Yes, Obama has handed Warren a license and a platform to say ever more hateful things between now and the inauguration, and you can bet that's just what he's gonna do. Watch Rick take a hard right turn.
grandma
· 11 months ago
Mr Warren best get the log out of his own eye.
What a hypocrite.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....so says the good book.
ndtovent
· 11 months ago
"Merry Christmas from Rick Warren! You're all hateful, evil, and not even Christian!" REALLY?? Does that mean that I don't have to usher at my church For the Christmas eve service now?
Ginger_FL
· 11 months ago
I was listening to XM RAW comedy yesterday and my favorite comedian George Carlin was doing a rant about RAYGUN...and the advance of the Religious right in this country. Oddly enough, his entire rant could have been done today by just substituting a name here and there.
Funny how the "right to lifers" are the main supporters of: death squads in south america (insert Iraq/Afganistan) death penalty killing abortion doctors
Funny how little has changed since the days of RAYGUN in this country. What a shame..... What will it take for our government to move AWAY FROM THESE RW crazies????
dula
· 11 months ago
No worries, it seems that Rev. Warren has personally apologized to Melissa Etheridge...she's telling us to back down because he's a really good person...he bought her album too and is a big fan so just stop hating on him. She blogged this at HuffPost.
Greensburg
· 11 months ago
I hope someone sends this latest rant to Ms. Etheridge. Still have warm fuzzy feelings Melissa?
Bush Bites
· 11 months ago
Have to say, I was initially kind of rooting for her to find common ground and help everybody get past this.
But, then I was surprised when I read her HuffPo post and she said she never heard of Warren before this.
I mean, she must be pretty unaware of current events not to know who warren is--best selling author, host of the saddleback debate.
I'm not sure somebody that unaware is the best person to discuss this with him.
Gary SF
· 11 months ago
Wow, what an ego! If I criticize Rick Warren about some of the vile things he has said, I am being 'Christ-o-phobic' ! Does Obama want someone with a Messiah Complex giving the invocation? See the definition here:
I think that Rick is 'chock-full-o-nuts' and just full of himself. And maybe I am just being 'phobe-o-phobic.' But never 'Christ-o-phobic.' But I feel the love, Rick. Really, I do.
caphillprof
· 11 months ago
It's the Christian martyr complex. They need us to bolster their superstitions.
foxy
· 11 months ago
More "Foot-in-mouth" speak from him? HA! Let him go! Give him that rope he needs to hang himself. What an asshole.
JohnInTexas
· 11 months ago
How Christ-like...(NOT)....if any of Warren's followers are true Christians, they will realize what a fake he is and take their faith and $$$ elsewhere.
lupe
· 11 months ago
Christ-ophobia? Joseph Lowery is a Christian, and I haven't heard a word against him from the gay community. I've heard nothing but praise, and exclamations of pride that such a worthy individual is speaking. Keep projecting, Mr. Warren.
Gary SF
· 11 months ago
Somebody copy that video before they take it down.
RC
· 11 months ago
I'm done, John. This is too fucking much.
It's a fucking prayer, for Christ's sake, not the end of the republic.
You'd think that someone who said so many hateful, disgusting, and misogynistic things about Clinton not 8 months ago would perhaps realize that being an asshole is no preserve of the right. Perhaps you are right, however, and the language one uses is reflective of the entirety of his soul.
dula
· 11 months ago
I thought you PUMA'S left a long time ago.
brian
· 11 months ago
You all are reminding me of the way the Republicans have behaved for the past 8 years....lunatic fringe politics.
JohnInTexas
· 11 months ago
If Warren was saying all this shit about black people, I guess it'd be okay. We homos should just buck up and take it like a man. ?
Gary SF
· 11 months ago
Yeah, it's too fucking much. Go tell that to Matthew Shepard's mother. If you can't understand that hate speech - in this case saying that gays and lesbians have 'Christ-o-phobia' - leads 'less stable' people to justify violence, then you have should move on to another blog. And since the Bible is filled with violence, killing a fag for Jesus isn't a big stretch for many folks. Sorry, but we disagree about this.
RIPWAMU
· 11 months ago
You know what's too much? Hate. Divisiveness. Persecution. Jamming religious beliefs down everyone's throats. I am done with these religious wingnuts twisting words in the Bible around to suit their prejudices. It's his prayer - one that should be between he and his God. And if you think this is not the end of the Republic, you better be prepared to eat your words one day. These rantings are just the types of things that start revolutions and civil unrest.
Just like any written word, the Bible is INTERPRETED by everyone in their own way. Sorry, that is just the way the mind works. It is not always clear and that leads people like Warren to stand up on a pulpit and feel that their interpretation is the only interpretation. I guarantee you Ricky boy that my interpretation of it is far different than yours even though we read the same words. I also guarantee that I live my life in reality, not trying to decipher meanings of passages made thousands of years.
PeteWa
· 11 months ago
If you're really done, then leave. Just go away, no one gives a shit about your whining.
JimSmith
· 11 months ago
Here's something of interest:
"Black community invites Rick Warren to give keynote at annual MLK service "
Well the Blacks are very inclusive you know. I hear they invited the head of The Klan to speak also. They are all about forgiveness. I think that's a positive step in this new age of politics.
scottinsf
· 11 months ago
Knock it off. Sarcastic generalizations like that are bullshit and have no place in this debate. There are many, many black groups that are inclusive and fighting for us. You do know the NAACP is one of the lead plaintiffs in the current marriage equality cases in front of the California Supreme Court do you? This is one white gay male that is forever grateful and will always remember that.
One could pick and choose any group and find plenty of unenlightened people. Sweeping generalizations only divide us.
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
Are we supposed to be shocked by that?
When they invite a speaker that has actively worked (and continues to work to deny them their rights) and when they invite someone who compares them to the lowest form of criminals, THEN you have a story about a group "reaching out" to people they disagree with. For an African-American group to invite a homophobe, unfortunately at this point, is business as usual.
Franly I'm getting tired of people trying to minimize the importance of this by showing us how many OTHER minority friends this homophobe has. It's not hard to find homophobic friends in ANY minority group you choose. Hell, you can find homophobes in gay groups and you can even find gay groups that seem to be founded on their homophobia (check out gaypatriot.com).
It just too bad that the late Corretta Scott King (god rest her soul) is not here to add her words and wisdom to this situation.
Bush Bites
· 11 months ago
That's too bad.
I had hoped he realized the pain he caused and was at least trying to be civil in an "agree to disagree" sort of way.
But this makes him sound like some kind of Fox News lunatic.
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 11 months ago
In fact, he tell us his Xmas service will be broadcast on Fox News. Warren, Inc. is also plugged in directly to Reader's Digest, Inc.
Russell60
· 11 months ago
He keeps reminding me of Burt Lancaster as Elmer Gantry. At least, if Burt Lancaster was bloated and ugly.
Ben Dover
· 11 months ago
Did lil baby jesus approve Professional Xtian and paid agent for gawd Rick Warren's message?
Warren is as evil as they come and seems to take great joy in bastardizing and cherry picking his bible. He's an unrepentant charlatan just like all the others.
And may it lead to his speedy and total downfall. The sooner the better.
foxy
· 11 months ago
Matthew 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
or for that matter,
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.
Matthew 22:37-39 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Greensburg
· 11 months ago
Please keep showing what a pig he is John. Kudos to you.
ScottinBoston
· 11 months ago
Warren says his "church" has been under attack for 30 years. Obviously, he is doing something WRONG if his "church" is under attack. Most normal churches aren't attacked for doing good and being good. Heck, what religion is Saddlecrack anyway?
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 11 months ago
Good to notice. These hucksters' playbook have a basic rule: emphasize repeatedly how the church is "under attack." Gets the sheep to fear and hate those outside the cult. Intensifies group identity and commitment. Also opens up wallets and purses.
Laura_in_CC
· 11 months ago
Ya mean like Jim Jones?
scottinsf
· 11 months ago
...and mormons.
RIPWAMU
· 11 months ago
Never even heard of him or his church until this summer. Hey Rick "We're just not that into you" !
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
He should talk to people at the United Church of Christ or the Unitarian Universalists Church or the Metropolitan Community Church. I'm sure that they've been being attacked for being gay supportive in ways that Warren couldn't begin to imagine for FAR longer than his church has existed.
I know that my UCC church has been vandalized three times in the short THREE years that I've been there. EVERY attack came after we made a public statement in support of the gay community or a statement against the war in Iraq.
Strangely enough when liberal churches get attacked it seldom makes the news unless someone is actually killed (like in the Unitarian Church in TN). Oh, and by the way, (how many of Pastor Warren's flock have been murdered while worshipping at his sanctuary?
I've heard story after story about how the gays have vandalized and attacked this Mormon church or that Baptist church. The claims are made even when there is absolutely NO evidence to indicate that gay people had anything to do with the act (ie Wasilla Baptist Church and the white powder allegedly sent to a Mormon Temple). Yet churches that are gay supportive are vandalized, their worshippers harassed and even killed, and hardly anyone says a thing and when they do they go OUT OF THEIR WAY to NOT to mention the fact that the perpetrator was a FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN and "member" of the "fundamentalist Christian community" the way they go all out to tie NONEXISTENT suspects of anti-Christian vandalism to gay people and the "gay community".
This is just another example of how our society and our culture has a very tidy way of making the gay community always look like the villains and the religious community always look like victims.
I saw the same shameful tactics used against black people in my home state of MS in the 1960's.
It's despicable!!!
brian
· 11 months ago
I've had enough. You sound like a spoiled child with your tantrums. Your self-righteousness is astounding. Peace americablog...nice knowing you.
foxy
· 11 months ago
John 10:12 "He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.
dula
· 11 months ago
Never heard of you before.
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 11 months ago
Disqus reveals Brian as a troll who got on board Americablog 3 days ago.
foxy
· 11 months ago
Sounds like one of Warren's flock to me...
Topher
· 11 months ago
Personally, I liked the Mormon trolls better.
brian
· 11 months ago
y'all are a bunch of haters
RIPWAMU
· 11 months ago
Buh Bye don't let the page hit you in the ass when you close it
Al
· 11 months ago
Goodbye Brian. We don't like bigots. You should have been banned from this site a long time ago.
PeteWa
· 11 months ago
Buh bye.
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
Oh my G-d.
What a terrible loss for the Americablog community!
Shall we cover our mirrors, rend our black garments and sit shivah? And how long of a shivah sitting does a virtual death from a virtual community warrant?
So many questions in the internet age.
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 11 months ago
A huckster of this magnitude INEVITABLY falls because of his closeted "sins" (Swaggart, Bakker, Meth-head Ted) or reveals himself to be corrupt and venal (Robertson, Roberts). It is sickening that a man as intelligent as Obama has hitched his wagon to this monumental creep.
Obama said: "All of the statements that have been the subject of controversy are ones that I vehemently condemn. They in no way reflect my attitudes and directly contradict my profound love for this country."
But that was about Rev. Wright condemning American hate groups and the murder of civilians with aggressive war.
What does Obama's honor of Warren say to Women? Gays? Hippies? Hemp farmers? Rationalists? Brothers with baggy pants?:
"Fuck all y'all!"
Ben Dover
· 11 months ago
St. Ricky better have a "come-to-jesus" moment, and fast. To paraphrase; "Hell hath no fury like like gay people scorned." If Ricky thinks this-too-shall-pass, he's as delusional as he is dangerous. He and his Mormon Cult buddies started this fight and it's not going to go away.
Tim
· 11 months ago
Le the public lynching continue...
Here's the link to the video where he explains how he wants gay couples to have equal rights and all he's concerned about is the word marriage. He also explains about the incest and pedophilia comment, that claim by john a little outrageous. It's also irresponsible reporting not to point out this video as well.
It's also fair to point out, where he made those alleged "incest and pedophilia" comments - here http://www.beliefnet.com/Video/Beliefnet-Interv... - he also points out that divorce is far more a threat to traditional marriage than gay marriage in his eyes and that Christians are hypocrite's for always fawning over gay marriage - don't mention that though do you?
As for the incest and pedophilia comment - any logical person can realize he was just trying to come up with other relationships besides a heterosexual couple or a gay couple, and frankly try, it's not easy.
At least here, at this site, the Chrito-phobia comment seems apt to me.
I can't believe you have turned me into someone who has to defend a christian never mind a megachurch guy. See what you've done. Now imagine what actual religious people are doing.
Tom
· 11 months ago
Sure coming up with child rape as a comparison to our loving and devoted relationships is just another slip of the tongue in trying to make a comparison. Give us break!
Tim
· 11 months ago
Ahh the power of denial, or un intelligence. It wasn't a slip of the tongue, he was coming up with other relationships that would fall outside the definition of marriage. He wasn't morally equating them, and any logical person can see that.
Tom
· 11 months ago
Actually I believe an illogical person sees it your way. Probably because your relationship isn't being compared to evil.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
"and frankly try, it's not easy."
why would i want to try to come up with insults against a persecuted minority? somehow i don't think anybody here "turned you into" a defender of bigots. you do this as a hobby.
No Hope In Politics
· 11 months ago
Did Warren advocate making divorce illegal?
No?
So there's no comparison to his activism against gay marriage, is there?
Run along.
Gary SF
· 11 months ago
I feel much better being compared to a pedophile now that I know that Warren sees divorce as a problem. Much better. I feel the love, Rick.
Al
· 11 months ago
Tim = Obama lunatic, who is now re-writing history. You're nothing but the Left's George Bush fangurl.
Tim
· 11 months ago
That'll get you place you dolt. Grow up.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
By "public lynching," I guess you mean pointing out that we disagree with someone who has said very offensive things about our community. Isn't that part of the free speech that Warren gushes about in his video? O right, free speech is only for good Christians. You're right, the reaction to Warren is much worse than his support of Prop 8 and the denial of equality to LGBT couples. Last time I checked, no one in the LGBT community was trying to deny any rights to Christians.
RIPWAMU
· 11 months ago
Ok, Obama. Enough is enough. This man does not want to unite. He needs to removed from the ceremony with a swift kick in the ass.
This country has enough problems without some blowbag inciting more hate and division.
Stand up Obama, stand up and say we as a country will not stand for this anymore. Hate is hate, no matter who the target is.
Tim
· 11 months ago
did you even watch any of those videos? He talks explicitly about how he hates the divisoins and how he hates the hate.
Then goes on about how he doesn't hate anyone and how his followers need to be civil in the face of anything.
And then talks of his support for equality for gay couples.
Seriously, watch the videos.
Tampa
· 11 months ago
I think too many people are more interested in playing the victim and bitching just for the sake of bitching. I watched the video and it's clear Warren did not say one single word about gay people!
SHAME ON JOHN ARAVOSIS FOR CLEARLY LYING AND TRYING TO STIR UP MORE DIVISION!
Indigo
· 11 months ago
DON'T SHOUT!
RIPWAMU
· 11 months ago
Actually there were 3 parts and he did talk about gay people quite a bit. Oh, and of course the media. When cornered hypocrites will always go after the media. Funny, some of the worst things he has done or said have been posted in the past on his website. Wonder if media got in there.
Al
· 11 months ago
Tampa = gay hater.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Did you watch all 3 parts in sequence? In context, it is completely clear that he was talking about criticism of him by LGBT people.
RIPWAMU
· 11 months ago
Yes, I did watch them. It was hard, but I did. He talks out both sides his mouth. As long as people follow his beliefs then welcome. I'm sorry Tim but homosexuality is science, not choice (by the way I am straight). Times have changed, people have evolved from the early days. Many rules and such get updated as time dictates as should the legal definition of marriage. Marriage is more law than religion, for example read this: http://rainbowallianceopenfaith.homestead.com/g...
Tom
· 11 months ago
Go read Melissa Etheridge's puff piece on Warren at Huff Po. She drank his Kool Aid, hook line and sinker.
It really irks me when people like Melissa Etheridge and her girlfriend (can't call her wife anymore) don't bother to do the slightest bit of research on the man they are defending. Warren in his double speak Beliefnet interview opossed civil unions and domestic partnerships just last week.
Forgot to mention he said they should have all the rights that straight couples have.
Tom
· 11 months ago
He limited it to hospital visitation and healthcare,
Tom
· 11 months ago
You skipped his calrification he made about that statement.
Clarification from Pastor Warren 12/15: I now see you asked about civil UNIONS -and I responded by talking about civil RIGHTS. Sorry. They are two different issues. No American should ever be discriminated against because of their beliefs. Period. But a civil union is not a civil right. Nowhere in the constitution can you find the "right" to claim that any loving relationship identical to marriage. It's just not there. ]
RIPWAMU
· 11 months ago
This jerk changes his "view" everyday. He is just trying to save face. Won't be long and his speaking engagements will be limited to Family Values Organizations.
Tom
· 11 months ago
What's really dumb about his statement against civil unions is that marriage rights aren't in the constitution either. It's a lame argument from a dull mind.
Tim
· 11 months ago
I will agree he's a dull mind, that's a personal belief I hold about anybody that beliefs in an invisible man in the sky though.
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
Funny how you get you back up and scream, "THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SAID, THAT'S NOT WHAT HE SAID!, YOU'RE ALL A BUNCH OF ILLITERATE, ILLOGICAL HATERS" right up until the point that someone pulls out the actual VIDEO that proves you wrong and then, without a peep you move on without so much as an acknowledgement that you were wrong.
You have spent literally hours and hundreds, if not thousands, of words doing this. Just bumping off video evidence and valid points left and right and continuing with your defense of Warren crusade.
Really bubba, what's up with that? What in it for you to be so passionate even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Are you on the Saddleback payroll?
Tim
· 11 months ago
No he didn't limit it. Those are the only ones he spoke of, never once did he say he limits it to them. He said everyone American should have the same rights as all americans. Watch the damn videos before spouting off.
Steve
· 11 months ago
Jews - how would you feel if Obama had picked a pastor to speak that in the past had called Jews inferior, not welcome in his church unless they repent, etc? Blacks - how would you feel if a McCain President chose a pastor to speak that called blacks inferior, akin to pedaphiles, and not welcome in his church?
Why is it still ok to hate and trash gays? Why, as gays, DO WE PUT UP WITH THIS?
RIPWAMU
· 11 months ago
How about having a non-denominatonal pastor give it? Or how about Maya Angelou?
David Liao
· 11 months ago
I'm gay and atheist. Both of these minority groups are marginalized in American culture, but in somewhat different ways. On AmericaBlog, one can ignite threads of complaints about invocations by anti-LGBT fundamentalists. Relatively few (there's another post I see below this) people here complain, beyond the fact that Rick Warren is anti-LGBT, that Rick Warren is a fundamentalist of any flavor giving an invocation.
There are a lot of people groups who are in bad shape in regards to civil rights or cultural acceptance. Some people identify as polyamorous, and while I don't know what this is like as it is not my identity, I can entertain the hypothesis that at least some of these people are sincere and can best be happy and productive members of society and parents through polyamorous relationships, maybe deserving of government and social recognition. However, when I speak about gay marriage with conservative people, I always have to bite my tongue and assure the conservatives that "it's wrong to fear that gay marriage could lead to polygamous marriage," rather than step outside of their fears to make them ask a broader civil and moral question, "is it really wrong to fear polygamy per se in the first place?" I understand that people are concerned about examples where polygamy is used coercively, for instance in cults, but that doesn't mean that _every_ single group of people who ever identify as polyamorous enter into coercive and destructive relationships. I'm not talking merely about a hypothesis. I have friends for whom polyamory is a blessing, and it sucks that we can't give this aspect of their sexuality respect and embrace. As far as civil rights and social acceptance go, polyamory is in _some_ ways a worse place than gay rights--in the public lay person's (casual TV watching of 10-second sound bites) gay rights debate, rarely do people question whether it's ok to demonize polyamory; when the subject arises the two sides usually disagree on how likely gay marriage is to lead to plural marriage. I don't like being the object of a civil rights debate, but I don't think I would like being the "foil" whose rights are not even being debated, only used as a threat in someone else's civil rights debate.
> Why is it still ok to hate and trash gays? Why, as gays, DO WE PUT UP WITH THIS?
I guess we put up with this because we're busy, and we have other things to do in the day, so we can't go out and protest every day. Protesting every day sounds like one way to guarantee that I have lost my life to the gay rights conflict.
I'm not sure exactly how to answer the question, "Why is it still ok to hate and trash gays?" Though I'd say in the context of the post, it's not _just_ gays. Gay people are not _the last and only_ hated minority. I don't know that that makes people feel any better. :(
Tampa
· 11 months ago
I reluctantly watched the video and the assertion that "Warren accuses gays of "hate speech," of launching "hateful attacks" against him, and he then says that gay and lesbian Americans have "Christ-ophobia," a clear effort to mock the term "homophobia." He goes on to explain that gays are "afraid of any Christian," suggesting that gay and lesbian Americans - gay and lesbian Obama voters - are not Christians" is clearly FALSE!
Not one time did he accuse or single out gay people.
Why fan the flames of hate and discourse by posting outright lies? Does this make us no better than the people who would oppress us?
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
It is utterly clear from the context that what he is talking about when he speaks of "hateful attacks" and "Christophobia" is the criticism from the LGBT community.
wearing out my F key
· 11 months ago
i scrolled through the old posts, and figured yall had finally gotten over this. WRONG! its like a modern day hanukkah story- "the rick warren invocation was such a small issue, it seemed as if there was only enough to bitch about for a day or two. but miraculously, the bitching lasted for 8 days and nights."
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
what are you bitching about today?
afafkd
· 11 months ago
...say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us...
afafkd
· 11 months ago
had but it never been begun
Steve
· 11 months ago
I wonder if he lets in unrepentant obese people into his church, too? The bible is clear that gluttony is a sin and your body is a "temple" to God. Oh wait, Rick is pretty fat himself.
protogenes
· 11 months ago
The man is a dangerous liar, who seems to be unaware he is contradicted by other video evidence.
Ben Dover
· 11 months ago
I wonder why St. Ricky, being gawds paid agent her on Earth, doesn't embrace all of Levitical law? Too inconvenient? Too harsh? Too many variations? Just easier to condemn gay people? Or is it because Rick Warren is nothing but a loud mouthed bible-thumping hypocrite? I would vote for the latter.
JayR
· 11 months ago
Hm. Like when Rev. Wright spazzed out and the Barack dumped him.
wearing out my F key
· 11 months ago
"Barack Obama's good buddy Rick Warren (talked) about the outcry over his being chosen to given the invocation at Obama's swearing in. And it's a doozie."
he talked for 30 seconds about the "outcry", said more or less there are no hard feelings, and ends it with a hearty "god loves everybody... then goes on about other matters for 7 minutes. way to get under his skin americablog!
Tom
· 11 months ago
We don't have Christophobia, most of us gays from the US were born from Christian parents as it is the predomiant religion. We don't irrational fear our families.
What we rationally fear is False Christians like Rick Warren who demonize us for power and money. He's more interested in profits then prophets. In his video he's bragging about $$$. Charity is supposed to be a practice for the humble.
Tim
· 11 months ago
Facts: I am a liberal, pro marriage equality, agnostic, religionless, Obama supporter who really distrusts religious types Facts: Rick Warren is a christian pastor Facts: Rick Warren thinks the term Marriage is a religious term that should not be redefined. Facts: Rick Warren supports giving equal rights to gay couples - watch the videos, i have yet to see a video where he doesn't actually say this Facts: Rick Warren is against Gay marriage because he thinks marriage is a religious term that should remain as it has been defined. Facts: This is no different than almost all churches and pastors in the country Facts: This is a basic idea of Christianity Facts: By calling this hateful you are in essence calling the beliefs of a wide majority of Christians hateful Facts: This falls into his "Christo-phobia" category as you are calling basically all if not most Christians hateful Facts: Rick Warren never said gay couples were the equivalent to "incest and pedophilia" in that they are morally equal - he said they are equal in that they, if allowed, would all redefine marriage. Facts: I, if given the chance, would end all organized religion if I could, and you force me to defend them because I hate lying. Facts: Rick Warren will not make a single policy decision Facts: Barack Obama supports equality for gay couples, repealing DOMA and "don't ask don't tell" Facts: Barack Obama, also being a Christian, believes marriage is a religious term Facts: Rick Warren will be saying a prayer - with the same held beliefs as all the religious men and women who swore in a president in the past Facts: The pastor who swore in Clinton Facts: I bet nobody here remember off the top of their head who Bill Clinton used for this very purpose Facts: Unless you read about it recently you're still thinking Facts: It was Billy Graham - did Clinton using Billy Graham shoot Graham's beliefs for the forefront of american policy? No. Facts: Does anybody associate Bill Clinton with Billy Graham, No. Facts: Did Billy Graham have any effect on Bill Clinton at all, No. Facts: This is an overblown non story filled with lies, exaggeration and divisive irresponsible reporting - at least on this site - one I usually like. Facts: You will all now attempt to make your own list of "Facts" in opposition of mine.
Tom
· 11 months ago
Fact- There is no religious litmus test nor statement in the marriage contract that one files with their state.
Fact- A marriage in Las Vegas is just as valid as one in Saddleback Church, because the law separates religion from the marriage contract.
Fact: Warren says Civil Unions are not a Civil Rights issue. They are exactly that.
Tim
· 11 months ago
Despite what's in the civil contract, it is considered a religious act by a wide majority of people, denying that is simply escaping from reality (keep in mind I hate religion and once married it will be done by someone unassociated with a church, so it is NOT a religious ceremony to me) - I am all for calling everything the gov't gives out a civil union and letting churches do marriages if they want, that's the best compromise, that way all legal documents have to refer to civil unions not marriages and everyone gets the same rights.
Tom
· 11 months ago
So you actually think the religious right is going to allow civil unions for everyone. Not a chance
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
why don't you tell that to your bff rick warren? no really. instead of defending this ghoul here at A-blog day after day, tell Rick Warren what you think he should do.
Tim
· 11 months ago
Well, Rick Warren can't do anything, which is part of the point, he's a pastor not a law maker. And now, you attack with my "bff rick warren" - the absense of civility is amazing. I happen to be a marriage equality person who actually thinks about things and because it doesn't agree with exactly your personal feelings about a douchebag pastor I get attacked. Real grown up, that'll get you far.
I guess everyone is ok with dishonestly as long as it attacks your "enemy".
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
if you have ideas for promoting marriage equality or any other gay civil rights issue and consider rick warren to be receptive and rational, send him your ideas. the anti-gay movement is concentrated in america's churches not in government. most readers here don't believe the man is receptive or rational but you seem to, so send him your ideas.
Tim
· 11 months ago
I don't recall saying he was receptive or rational. I in fact expressed my doubt that anyone who believes in an invisible man in the sky is rational or receptive. Umm, "the anti-gay movement is concentrate in America's churches not government" Yes I agree, anybody who is anti gay is likely in a church, and likely can't have their minds changed by anyone. However, most of the government is anti gay marriage. Most senators and congress are in fact against gay marriage - not equality - gay marriage. And they also have the power to do something, so dealing with them is probably far better.
And you're right. I think I will send an e-mail or something to where ever you can do that sort of thing with Warren.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
sigh. once again, this is not just about gay marriage.
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
Tim, I've been reading through this discussion and have noticed a disturbing trend. YOU continually talk of civility (just as Warren does), you continually accuse those who are disagreeing with you of being uncivil (just as Warren does) but over and over, and seemingly without your notice, you have told people who are making perfectly valid points (that differ from your opinion) that they are "illogical" (dula); "you are simply incapable of reading (steve-in-CNJ)(rude and condescending); "You clearly don't remember Graham” (steve-in CNJ)(presumptuous and dismissive); and by the way Billy Graham was a homophobe regardless of how tame he appeared or how beloved he might have been. YOU should try reading HIS words on the subject sometime. Then you go on to praise the one person who agrees with you as "logical" inferring that everyone else in Illogical.
And for good measure you end with this little bit of Warren-like victimhood, "I guess everyone is ok with dishonestly as long as it attacks your "enemy", seemingly blissfully unaware of your own penchant for attacking those who disagree with you.
It's clear to me why you are so passionate in your defense of Warren. You're cut from the same pious, self-righteous, hypocritical cloth as he. You both attack and then play wounded, innocent victim when people fire back.
I think it's time that you took a moment for interspection before you continue this discussion in the same hypocritical way that you have conducted it thus far.
An_American_Karol
· 11 months ago
Well, said
Tom
· 11 months ago
Sadly, that needed to be said to Tim.
PeteWa
· 11 months ago
Tim, don't look now, but you just got DOMINATED.
timncguy
· 11 months ago
But, Is Rick Warren all in favor of having civil unions for straight and gay couples? And, then allowing the United Church Of Christ to perform marriages of gay couples?
I DON'T THINK SO
wearing out my F key
· 11 months ago
fact- you're right, on every point. good post.
Ben Dover
· 11 months ago
Tom, this is what St. Ricky preaches and teaches about us:
MORE THAN WORDS conferences are being scheduled for 2007; if your church would like to host this event, contact us.
What is MORE THAN WORDS?
MORE THAN WORDS is a compelling 1-day conference geared to help you better understand homosexuality so you can minister to a friend or family member. You will learn how to respond to "gay theology", what the research really shows, and what your church can do.
MORE THAN WORDS goes beyond "talk" to walking people out of homosexuality. The complexity of homosexuality will crumble as you discover the root issues, explore the biblical record and witness the dynamic truths that lead to freedom from homosexuality.
Our churches, our schools and our culture are being bombarded with misinformation in order to legitimize homosexuality. Christians know that homosexuality is wrong, but many lack the knowledge and ability to refute the clever homosexual agenda. Millions of parents suffer silently with a homosexual son or daughter. Many pastors and counselors are ill-equipped to tackle the issue.
MORE THAN WORDS will get you to the "bottom line" where you can make a difference by witnessing the grace, love, and power of Jesus Christ who makes "all things new."
What Topics does MORE THAN WORDS Address? If a Friend Says "I'm gay" Loving and Reaching the Gay Community The Pivotal Parent Debunking the "Gay Gene" "What's a Parent to Do?" Untwisting "Gay Theology" "They didn't teach me this in Seminary!" Counseling the Homosexual Preventing Homosexuality A Biblical Bridge Out of Homosexuality The Church: "Walking by Faith, not by Fright" Demystifying Homosexuality If you are interested in hosting a MORE THAN WORDS Conference at your church- contact us!
Crozier
· 11 months ago
No, this Christian clergyman has one response. Marriage in this secular pluralistic nation is a civil contract with a state license that provides you with both federal and state rights and privileges. Matrimony, or the marriage optional ceremony is dependent upon whether your brand of theism provides it.
Here is an example. Christmas Day is a holiday in the United States. Are we saying that a Christian feast is being legalized to the exclusion of say Chanukkah or Ramadan or any other religious ceremonial feast?
No, the "Christmas Day" that is a NATIONAL HOLIDAY is a secular holiday that is recognized and observed by ALL AMERICANS.,,. DO YOU GET IT !! CHRISTIANS DO NOT OWN THE TERM " MARRIAGE". THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DOES, AND IT IS A CIVIL AND SECULAR TERM. STOP THE SPIRITUAL VIOLENCE. FOR GOD'S SAKE.....HIS " CHRIST -OPHOBIA COMMENT OFFENDS ME...A RECTOR.....
Tim
· 11 months ago
Well, I really do wish your view, which I happen to agree with, was held by the majority of Christians. I really do. Kudos for thinking about it like a logical person.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
it's impossible to figure out your motive with these defensive posts. whom are you defending?
lots of people remember billy graham. the comparison only highlights how starkly different a "pastor" warren is. it's already well understood that warren is not in government making policy directly. your facts are not telling any particular story. if warren believes marriage is a religious term he should be trying to strike it from existing california statutes. that's clearly not his intent, is it? you were almost rational yesterday but you have slipped back into your earlier muddle. can you actually say something coherent?
Tim
· 11 months ago
Well I think you are simly incapable of reading, everything I said up there makes perfect sense to anybody with a logical mind. People remember Bill Graham of course, but I doubt many people remember he did Clinton's invocation. So you are saying Billy Graham is worse that Rick Warren? Wow. You clearly don't remember Graham.
I agree it should be taken out of the statutes, that's my solution. And yes he should do that. I'm not defending him and his role in Prop 8 or anything he does. And this leads to my motivation, I hate how A - this non story is blown up B - this blow up will likely hurt the marriage equality movement C - lies and exaggerations are being spread D - civil discourse is evaporating (if they don't act civil, that doesn't mean you shouldn't) - and now i'm sure this, the most unimportant thing listed, will be attacked.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
it's possible that you are actually of a mind with with Mr. Warren and don't really care about marriage equality, which, by the way, is a small part of the problem with Rick Warren. Seriously, who would spend this much energy expressing high-minded concern that warren is getting a bum rap? the reference to billy graham kinda blows your cover. who would mention those two people as comparable?
Tim
· 11 months ago
Huh? that made no sense. I just googled who said the prayer at the 97 inauguration to find out who it was, since I didn't remember. Graham was an anti-semite. that's pretty bad. He also said AIDS was a judgment from god.....I think he's pretty bad...at least in my opinion.
Right now I'm actually laid up with a bad back and can't really get out of bed...so I have a lot of time on my hands. And this blog gets the most comments. And I like debate.
And I don't acutally care of Warren gets a bum wrap...I don't like dishonesty on any side - also I don't like how people hate on Obama for something he shouldn't, which actually was my original "outrage" - but i'm sure i'll get ripped for that right now.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
mr. obama fucked up very badly. if this were an anti-white pastor like Wright instead of merely an anti-gay one, mr. obama would be on teevee "denouncing" and "repudiating" him, not inviting him to give the national blessing.
btw, mr. Wright is a buffoon but his views are at least understandable given the unremitting persecution of blacks in this country. is mr. warren understandable? not so much.
Tim
· 11 months ago
I happen to agree comletely with your assessment of Rev. Wright's comments (and his buffoonery). I think Obama was forced to denouce Rev. Wright due to political pressures even though he doesn't personally believe it - I wish it were possible for him to be that brave to continue to support (which he orginally tried to do) and still get elected.
And this is debatable of course, but I think having Warren there in the long run will help marriage equality, in the long run that is. I don't have the patience to explain that now as I have to go heal my back and eat, but it's in my blog, two warren posts ago. So I don't think it's a fuckup at all.
dula
· 11 months ago
If he were for Equal Rights he would not have helped pass Prop. 8. PERIOD.
Tim
· 11 months ago
See, now any logical person can see that's not true. He's for equal rights, he just doesn't want the word Marriage used to describe legal gay relationships. Prob 8 was making it so Marriage couldn't be applied to legal gay relationship - whatever they call them in CA.
Tom
· 11 months ago
He opposes Civil Unions because he thinks they are not a civil rights issue. Which is purpose driven ignorance.
dula
· 11 months ago
Separate is not equal...read a history book.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
"Separate is inherently unequal."
-- Brown v. Board of Education
timncguy
· 11 months ago
if you believe that Warren believes in equal rights for gays (other than marriage) can you please supply the links where he states his support for:
Civil Unions and all state and ferderal benefits that go with them which would require the repeal of DOMA
Repeal of DADT
Enactment of ENDA
The inclusion of sexual preference and gender identity into civil rights legislation and hate crimes legislation.
Gay Adoption rights.
Because, honestly I don't believe your claim that his only opposition is to gay marriage. Warren has made statements in recent days that he doesn't even believe gays should have ANY sexual relations at all. He believes they should remain celibate. He said this even applies if science proves that being gay is biological and not a choice.
timncguy
· 11 months ago
if you want to talk about your "literal" opinion of the comparison that Warren did or didn't make to incest and pedophilia,
then you should also use a "literal" definition of Christo-phobia, that would be a fear of Christ and not a fear of Christians.
Story filled with "LIES", I guess you mean the "LIES" that Warren used in his support of Prop 8 by claiming that lagalizing gay marriage in CA would allow for pastors to be sued for hate speech if they spoke their beliefs, right?
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
FACT; Barack Obama's denomination, The United Church of Christ (a mainline denomination) supports FULL spiritual AND LEGAL marriage equality for gay and lesbian couples. ("almost all" churches is one of those "lies" you talk about).
--And for the record I sincerely doubt that Obama "believes" that marriage is a religious term. After twenty years in the UCC I'm sure he knows better than to say what he really believes on the subject if he had any hope of getting elected president. This would be no different than Dean or Gore, who BOTH SAID they opposed gay marriage when running for president but who later came out and said that they really supported marriage equality.
FACT; The church doesn't have the right to "define" CIVIL RIGHTS and institutions any more than the state has the right to regulate RELIGIOUS RITES and traditions.
FACT: We don't let churches write or control our laws for very good reason. Which religion would be in control? Which religion wins out when there is a difference of opinion? Let's just assume that we always go with the Christians (since so many people "believe" that we were founded to be a Christian nation and since "so many people believe" seems to be the threshold for you as to when we should or should not follow something. /Do we go with the Catholics? Protestants? Mormons? Let's just say "Protestant" for sake of argument. Then which DENOMINATION wins out when there is a disagreement? Which branch of which sect of which denomination gets the final say? See where I'm going with this?
Now go ahead and tell me, as you tell everyone else who dares to disagree with you, just how "illogical" and ignorant I am.
cool blue reason
· 11 months ago
You forgot to mention Warren's "Cure Same-Sex Attraction" program:)
Here's the background for those who have not been reading about this particulary angle. Saddleback operates a program called Celebrate Recovery:
"All of life's hurts, habits, and hang-ups are addressed through this one curriculum. Celebrate Recovery is designed to help with numerous recovery areas, such as Adult Children of Alcoholics, Anger Groups, Chemically Addicted, Codependents, Eating Disorders, Financial Recovery, Love & Relationship Addiction, and Sexual Addiction, Women in Relationship with a Sexually Addicted Man, Food Addiction, Same Sex Attraction, Sexual/Physical/Emotional Abuse and Grupo De Hombres En Espanol. "
Indigo
· 11 months ago
An Aside:
A few days ago, one of those fund-raising letters from one of the Obama mailing lists came my way. I replied with a fairly polite but clear letter expressing my concern about Mr. Obama's failure to reject anti-gay hate speech. I've not received so much as one fund-raising letter from the Obama mailing lists since then. I'm off the lists. I bet I'm on some other list now.
What's that grinding sound . . . ? Oh, reich! The gates of Dachau!
Tim
· 11 months ago
Ahh yes, not being able to marry is clearly the equivalent of millions of jews being murdered. Keep making those comparisons, that'll get the support on the side of equality real fast.
Indigo
· 11 months ago
There's lots more to it than that. Pay close attention and you'll see.
Tom
· 11 months ago
Hey Tim, Do you know anything about the history of the Pink Triangle?
Was it ok for Warren to compare abortion rights to millions of people killed by Nazis?
Tim
· 11 months ago
Yes I believe it has to do with Gays being killed during the Holocaust....you'd think Gay people would be put off by comparing something like denying gay marriage to the murdering of gay people simply for being gay, neither is good, one is far far worse.
No it wasn't ok for Warren to do that. So are you saying it's ok to stoop to his level of idiocy?
Tom
· 11 months ago
You have to remember the history in order not to repeat it. The Pink Triangle was the result of Paragraph 175. The Modern US refuses to sign a UN proposal to end all modern day Paragraph 175s across the world in 2008.
Rick Warren has compared our love to beatiality and pedophilia
Tim
· 11 months ago
No he hasn't. Watch the videos. He didn't equate them. He was merely thinking of other relationships that fall outside of the current religious definition of marriage. These are the lies I'm talking about.
"The issue to me, I'm not opposed to that as much as I'm opposed to redefinition of a 5,000 year definition of marriage. I'm opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I'm opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I'm opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
BELIEFNET: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
Oh , I do. For 5,000 years, marriage has been defined by every single culture and every single religion - this is not a Christian issue. Buddhist, Muslims, Jews - historically, marriage is a man and a woman. And the reason I supported Proposition 8, is really a free speech issue. Because first the court overrode the will of the people, but second there were all kinds of threats that if that did not pass then any pastor could be considered doing hate speech if he shared his views that he didn't think homosexuality was the most natural way for relationships, and that would be hate speech. We should have freedom of speech, ok? And you should be able to have freedom of speech to make your position and I should be able to have freedom of speech to make my position, and can't we do this in a civil way.
Most people know I have many gay friends. I've eaten dinner in gay homes. No church has probably done more for people with AIDS than Saddleback Church. Kay and I have given millions of dollars out of Purpose Driven Life helping people who got AIDS through gay relationships. So they can't accuse me of homophobia. I just don't believe in the redefinition of marriage.
[Clarification/addition from Pastor Warren 12:15: "
Tim
· 11 months ago
If you look at the following paragraph, and his later explanations where he says I understand how you could have misunderstood me, you can see what he meant. He thinks they are the same in the fact that they fall outside that 5,000 year old definition of marriage (which in and of itself isn't true). Notice right after he says Oh I do, he explains about it falling outside the definition of marriage. Nowhere did he say they were morally similar, in fact everything he said lends itself to my interpretation. He probably could have clarified it better, as he later tried to do.
Tom
· 11 months ago
Wow, his answer to their equivalency is right there and you refuse to see it.
Tim
· 11 months ago
Emotions are blinding.
Tom
· 11 months ago
So stop trying to emote for Warren.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
You can't be serious. What would be the point of comparing gay marriage to incest and pedophilia if one were not trying to draw a moral comparison? Isn't his objection to gay marriage, incestuous marriage and marriage to a minor based on a notion of morality? If not, what is it based on?
gary
· 11 months ago
Ummmm, Tim . . You're the one who should watch the videos. Warren confirms that he does equate with a resounding "YES" when asked.
Tim
· 11 months ago
And I assume that modern day US not signing is the work of Bush. no surprise there.
Tom
· 11 months ago
Bush is not the US, the US is the United States.
timncguy
· 11 months ago
You seem to believe that gay rights are about marriage and marriage only. There is much more involved than just marriage. What about not being fired for being LGBT? What about adding sexual preference and gender identity to civil rights legislation since it already includes religion which is a "lifestyle choice"? What about repealing DADT since the same "unit cohesion" arguments used against gays were used against inegrating blacks and women into the military. What about adoption laws? What about ENDA or hate crimes legislation?
How many more gays have to be beaten and/or killed just for being gay before you are willing to compare ALL equality for gays to that of other minorities who already have equality? How many more have to be fired from their jobs or denied advancement in their careers? How many more have to be denied rental housing based on their sexuality? Yes, it happens. I just read a story this morning about real estate agents who would not show a one bedroom apartment to two men.
Public opinion didn't support civil rights legislation when it was enacted. Public opinion didn't support legalzing inter-racial marriage when the Supreme Court decided Loving v Virgina. Why are gays REQUIRED to convince a majority of voters that we deserve to be treated equally before gaining rights even to you, someone who has claimed to support equal rights.
Eyeball_Kid
· 11 months ago
Ok, John. We get it. They guy's a jerk and BHO probably erred in signing him on to a role that will have nothing to do with governing. Is it time to move on yet? When will you be finished with demonizing Warren? The moving puff-ball won't be going away; rather, he'll only take on a slightly different form and continue to rake in millions. That's the way that sociopaths work. But I'm getting the sense that the more you and others point to Warren as "Hell Boy", the more powerful he becomes, and the more enriched he'll be.
Try a strategic approach, eh?
No Hope In Politics
· 11 months ago
Pointing out unconscionable hypocrisy is "demonizing"?
Really?
Well, et the "demonizing" continue.
Eyeball_Kid
· 11 months ago
It IS unconscionable hypocrisy. But repeating that statement is not helping to attain a desirable goal. What can instead be done to decrease Warren's financial base, from where he draws his power and influence? Since Warren is a capitalist above all, and is deceiving the public and the government for his financial gain, what can be done to weaken his financial base?
Crozier
· 11 months ago
And what, pray tell Eyeball Kid would that more "strategic approach" be specifically? Your reading public is dying to know....literally and figuratively.
Eyeball_Kid
· 11 months ago
No, "my reading public" is NOT dying to know. And your sarcasm isn't hidden enough to goad me into a discussion in which you likely don't have an interest. Anyway, you can figure out the answer(s) anyway by contrasting the functional uses of tactics and strategies. You seem intelligent. Give it a try.
McE
· 11 months ago
I'm glad Martin Luther King didn't think the same way you do. We'd still have anti-miscegenation laws and school segregation.
Al
· 11 months ago
No, Eyeball_Kid. You're a bigoted loser yourself. F-off!
Eyeball_Kid
· 11 months ago
Really? Warren's an ass and likely a sociopath. Plain and simple. How does are apparent agreement with you lead you to the conclusion that I'm a bigot? If you want to make enemies, choose another target. I'm not agreeing with the tactical approach that Jon is using. Demonizing Warren is a tactic. That's only going to make him more powerful. He's in the business of drawing the contrast between himself and those he considers less holy and he's doing it for the profit motive. He can now continue to place blame on the "gay" and/or progressive community for victimizing him, which will prod his followers into kicking in yet more riches for Ricky. If you really don't want him around, what can you do to maximize that probability?
McE
· 11 months ago
Bonus Points!
He's a creationist, too (scroll until you see "What about dinosaurs?"
No, but should Obama embolden the Pope's rancid point of view by honoring him at a national event, for all Americans.. No
jcgraham77
· 11 months ago
He should ask him where he buys his snazzy shoes and hats.
Al
· 11 months ago
Invite Iran to speak. See how that goes over in America.
JayR
· 11 months ago
The POTUS always honors the Pope when he visits IIRC and sometimes it's all over the big TV thing as the guy travels around the country. Should his visa be refused because he's persecuting someone because of their social group? (that's a possible ground of inadmissibility to the US)
nicho
· 11 months ago
Not even close comparison. The Pope is a head of state. Obama is required by protocol to treat him the same as any other head of state.
JayR
· 11 months ago
So if he's powerful it doesn't matter what he says?
JayR
· 11 months ago
BTW hiding behind protocol is pretty lame don't you think?
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
He should meet, and talk with whom ever he wants. That is how we change hearts and minds. However, he should not be given the highly symbolic honor of the invocation at the inaguration. This only legitimizes the abject ignorance that Warren has spewed over his career, thus giving a taceted 'OK' to further alienate, marginalize and physically harm the estimated 20 million adult gay Americans that gave disproportionately large sums of money to Obama's campaign.
I am sure David Duke goes to church, pays his taxes and stops at read lights. This does not make him a good person, and it does not allow him to have a place of honor at an inaguration.
Think outside of the box, scratch the surface. This is not rocket science.
jcgraham77
· 11 months ago
Characteristics of Christianity as outlined by Christ: Humility Modesty Forgiving Passive Without worldly possessions (A fox has a hole, Christ didn't have a rock to lay his head on) Generous Without hate or malice Loving Joyful Apolitical (give unto Ceasar)
Sound familiar? No...but this does:
Modern American Characteristics of Christianity: Political Grand/royal/regal ($20 million mega churches) Propaganda Profitible Hateful Pious Self Righteous Self Serving Self Indulging Shiny Rich (preaches now make more than most of us) Calculating (even with children dying of AIDS in Africa) Afluent Suspect Paranoid Judgemental (haha...the Good Samartian would be ticketed these days)
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
YUP......precisely. Jesus would certainly not be a republican, this I know.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
Your list would make such a wonderful liturgical litany!
w/ Politicians...... r/ pray for us.
w/ Propagandists...... r/ pray for us.
w/ Profitseekers...... r/ pray for us.
w/ Hateful...... r/ pray for us.
w/ Pious...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Self Righteous...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Self Serving....... r/ pray for us.
v/ Self Indulgent...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Shiny...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Wealthy...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Calculating...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Affluent...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Suspect...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Paranoids...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Judgmental...... r/ pray for us.
v/ All who are grand, royal and regal...... r/ pray for us.
It would be even better in Latin!!
v/ Politicicabis...... r/ ora pro nobis.
et cetera, et cetera ad infinitum.......
Rob Mule
· 11 months ago
Now, let me understand...Is this Rick Palin or Warren? Old fat Rick has the Rovian dissembling chaff cloud down to a fair thee well and in plenty 'o time for 2nd Breakfast, Elevenses and Luncheon. Is it really rude, rather than a good debate technique, to suggest, to a posturing fundie lard butt, that his excessive eating habits might be as sinful as the alleged sin he rails against? While my own prayers and the miracles I've witnessed in my own life suggest God might disagree with Rick's narrow, historically unsupported positions regarding homosexuality, Rick seems disinclined to provide supporting evidence for his claim of "5,000 years of exclusive heterosexual marriage". Can't Rick and his PR people just accept their own unnatural love affair with America's corporate media and cafeteria politicians while leaving the rest of us alone?
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
....and his love affair with the cafeteria. Period. :-)
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
Eating shrimp and pork is as sinful as the alleged sin he rails against, if he would just read all of Leviticus. And is that a cotton/poly blend shirt he is wearing? Forbidden!
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
After reading Mellissa Ethridges comments about her meeting w/ Warren I have to say the man is a true sociopath. He talks out of both sides of his mouth. It's an interesting education in psychology to watch this guy. A true nutcase. To be so vehiment about how he really feels about millions of Americans (namely LGBT people) On his website, in sermons and in interviews. Then to hear him in Ethridges meeting. Then to hear him on that video with the "martyr" complex. It's become quite clear to me that this man is in business for himself. PERIOD.
Under the guise of helping the poor, and sick etc, they FIRST and foremost convert the people prior to or along with care, and food. Rick Warren pays himself first. Make no mistake, he is running a business, a very big business. The man is the CEO, and Obama has facillitated thrusting Warren even further to legitimate status.
I am still horrified and disgusted w/ both Warren and Obama at this point. Keep it coming John. I personally will not let this one go until we get some answers. I am like a dog with a chew toy.
We are in the right on this one. This guy is a text book sociopath. Psychology 101. And Ethridge and Obama have been duped.
PS: Isn't Gluttony an abomination?
postdamnit
· 11 months ago
Not to be rude, but wasn't this apparent from the beginning?
Ben Dover
· 11 months ago
Top story over at Pam's about how St. Ricky's shunning and ill treatment of a group that wanted to meet with him.
It seems I'm left to ponder... Why is there even a prayer in the first place? And why is it Christian? I guess I'm simple.
Tim
· 11 months ago
That is an excellent point.
I would love to see the rights reaction if Obama has a muslim prayer read. He'd never get elected again, but it might be worth it just for the reaction.
coolcatdaddy
· 11 months ago
If I remember correctly, Jefferson didn't want a prayer at his inauguration.
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
But. but, but Melissa Ethridge said that he said he wished he hadn't said those things. Melissa Ethridge said he didn't mean those nasty things. Melissa Ethridge said we should reach out and be a wonderful to him as he is to us.
There again he stroked Melissa Ethridges ego in his first few sentences and she fell for his con job like the easiest of marks.
I said this in a number of comments here and on other blogs yesterday and was roundly attacked.
My point was, if he had said all the things that Melissa Ethridge said he said then whey did he only say them in a PRIVATE conversation with her rather than mentioning them, even once, in any of the numerous interviews and press releases he has done on the subject over the last few days?
I think Melissa got totally punked but I don't think her ego will ever allow her to admit it.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Completely duped. Yes she did.
coolcatdaddy
· 11 months ago
You know, some of my best friends, family members and co-workers are Christians. I don't really hold it against them - I still love them for who they are. And they respect me enough not to try and tell me what I should believe or how I should live my life.
Is that concept really so difficult for this wretched man to understand? Is it really that difficult for Obama and the members of his administration to understand that Warren doesn't exhibit polite, humane, or tolerant behavior and that he's really not a model for creating dialogue about faith in the public sphere?
Eghads, what a can of disgusting worms Obama's opened on this one.
Tim
· 11 months ago
thats the difference, and I'm not agreeing with this position. Warren and his religious buddies think by adding Marriage to gay couples legal relationships, you are telling them how to live there lives. It's seemingly illogical, but it's what they believe...since they consider "marriage" to be theirs.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
You have to understand the typical anti-intellectual dolt that make up his flock. Martyrdom is part the psychology of these people. They are un able to do the personal homework necessary to move to a higher spiritual level. So they need someone like Warren to spell it out. To interpret. To tell them what to think and how to vote.
Not all Christains or religious people are like this certainly. But Warren is running a business and a cult. When you delve into how they opperate it is easy to draw this conclusion.
Tim
· 11 months ago
AGREED!
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
I think they are very afraid of being left behind by society.
EmGD
· 11 months ago
It's nice to see the lengths with which Warren will flash the double birds, twist the knife deeper, tell you to eat shit and dare Obama to do something about it. Of which Barack-star will do nothing. I do bet there will be a nice letter from him mentioning Warren's AIDS work in Africa and the ways in which you completely misconstrued Warren's screed against you. It's your own fault for being so hatevil and not being able to watch videos without completely misunderstanding them. Apparently when you choose to be gay you also subconsciously choose not to process video messages properly. It was on Rick Warren's site...wait it got taken down.
I think the double birds are a reflex in response to his financial interests being threatened. He is likely concerned about his income, and shrinkage of his market.
Personally speaking, I'm not Christ-phobic at all. But I *am* phobic of -> empire-building pastors -> ignorant people -> hypocrites.
I'm afraid Warren is 3 for 3 there.
Ray in Ark.
· 11 months ago
Also: This reminds me of how Scientologists got all double-birded when a year or two ago their statements, beliefs, and practices started getting scrutiny, questioning, and protests to which they were not accustomed.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
And Warren is not even that good at Christian passive aggression. He practically put his "we're going to love, love, love" remark in the same sentence with the hit-back attacks. Among all the Christian "lights of the world" I'd say he's not the brightest bulb.
Scott
· 11 months ago
"He goes on to explain that gays are "afraid of any Christian" *************
Whatever, Pastor Lardass.
I'm not AFRAID of so-called "christians".
I just steer clear of them, like the crazy man at the bus stop who's slapping himself and trying to bite his own ear off.
coolcatdaddy
· 11 months ago
Unfortunately, many hardcore evangelicals base all of their beliefs on fear - fear of being overcome by "temptation", fear of their own sexuality, fear of God's wrath and judgment, fear of anyone that doesn't believe the same things they do.
It's not surprising that, in his world view, everyone is "afraid" of him and that enemies are out to "get him".
Sad and pathetic. Fundamentalists like Warren give a bad name to devout people who are Christian Jewish, or Islamic and approach their faith and relationship with a higher power with reason, love, understanding, and good overall mental health.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
And above all, fear of sex.
Older_Wiser
· 11 months ago
I know someone of humble birth, someone who is so generous with everything that there sometimes seems very little left for that person; someone who teaches children to love, to learn, to share, to protect others and the earth; someone who works wonders every day with very little; someone who tries to rectify wrongs, who sees justice and equality for all, not just for the few; someone whose feet are planted firmly on the ground and has no use for royalty or the self-appointed elite or those who would undo the positive good that person would bring to their own life and to others.
That person didn't live 2,000 years ago as one who for some obscure reason is worshipped today as a deity. That person isn't a figment of the imagination of people over thousands of years of ignorance and confusion about the natural process of humanity and the planet.
That person lives today and is in many countries, of many races and nationalities, people who don't seek fame, fortune or influence because their own sphere is small and most often restricted.
If we look to ourselves, to those we love, and remember that our own humanity is what will save us, that we only need to "do no harm", we'll be all right as a species. If we permit others to control us, through whatever means they employ to do so, we are doomed. To let others plant doubt and guilt about ourselves through religious "rules" and metaphysical meanderings, to stunt our growth as human beings, and to prevent our learning about ourselves and our only home because of appeals to our emotions or fears is an affront to our humanity. To paraphrase, the road to extinction is paved with good intentions disguised simply as ploys to wage aggression against the fullfilment of the life we live on earth. After all, there is no other life except that which we practice here on earth. If we are doing no harm, there should never be any judgment of any kind. Yet everyday we are inflicted with the myth of "perfection" through pie in the sky schemes which obviously don't work--the history of humanity confirms it.
Control disgused in religious form is always judgment, always harm, although it may not be seen that way because people sometimes prefer to wear blinders of ignorance. Time to take those blinders off.
Ray in Ark.
· 11 months ago
Beautiful post.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
well said. :-)
Josh
· 11 months ago
GLAAD has vids of interviews that the Warrens did last year where they admitt that they didn't care about HIV/AIDS when they thought it was just a "gay disease"...
12.20.07 09:00 pm - Pastor Rick and Kay Warren talk about their work with AIDS and Kay says, "I thought it was a gay disease. And for me I thought that meant I didn?t have to care. And I was so wrong."
ABC: Nightline - Kay Warren on AIDS
12.14.07 11:42 pm - Kay Warren, wife of pastor Rick Warren, admits she did not respond to the AIDS crisis immediately because it "was tied with homosexuality," but now says all people with HIV/AIDS should be treated with compassion.
Ray in Ark.
· 11 months ago
That's my idea of evil.
coolcatdaddy
· 11 months ago
How many years has it been since AIDS wasn't just "the gay disease"?
What kind of bubble do these people live in?
scottinsf
· 11 months ago
No shit. That Kay woman sounds like a foul human being. Even if you set teh gays aside, her comments show a striking lack of compassion. Then look at the way she adds gays to the mix and she sounds downright evil in my book.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
AIDS didn't even start as the gay disease. It started in Africa as a cross-over virus from monkeys, probably as a result of humans butchering and eating monkeys. It then started spreading through heterosexual transmission. It's just a virus. A lethal and very ugly virus that has caused horrible suffering. But for some of our Christian friends it became an expression of their "loving" God. What kind of bubble indeed.
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 11 months ago
For the Warrens AIDS was just a gay disease until 2002. Then it became a disease affecting innocent people. Overnight, just like that. Amazing.
They didn't know about Ryan White, Elizabeth Glaser, or millions of Africans, Haitians, European and American IV users and transfusion patients, among other non-gay categories.
Must have been too busy bilking their flock since 1980 to pay attention.
tlsintx
· 11 months ago
i love how Ricky talks about Christianity as if he knows what it is...
that's laughable. he's just another Christofascist, making a buck off fear and hatred.
tsuki
· 11 months ago
By focusing on LGBT, Warren is trying to tie the controversy to the Gay Community ONLY. As a woman, I am equally outraged.
Warren has asserted that I am a second class citizen. I am spiritually inferior, in need of constant (male) supervision and should be submissive.
Eight years of this BS from the present administration and their love of Fundies, and I thought we had all walked into the light.
The more things change; the more they remain the same.
Ray in Ark.
· 11 months ago
LGBT people, women, scientists, scientific technicians, and science educators should all be outraged.
People in the health care and health insurance industries should also be unhappy at the presentation of Rick Warren as some kind of role model.
Ohio_Dem
· 11 months ago
Don't forget the Jewish woman who was told by Warren that she would "burn in hell" unless she converted to Christianity
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
PRECISELY. Warren is just so wrong on many, many levels.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
You are correct. Find out what warren believes about the role of women in society and the family. I am guessing you will be horrified by the answer.
AND the man believes in creationism. I want to ask him how old he thinks the earth is? I imagine he believes somewhere in the relm of several thousands of years.
You need not go any further than the grand canyon to understand what a big lie creationism is. A seventh grader can understand the simple concept of : If we can measure the speed of light, and we can measure the distance to the nearest star, and we understand how long stars live, then we can draw the conclusion that we are seeing stars that have died out billions of years ago and are only now are we able to see them. This is how far away they are.
creationist are anti science ignorant fools who cannot wrap their minds around much of anything......and this has been given the high honor of the invocation.
FINE, take out the gay issue....and what have we got. Still a bad move by Obama.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
Absolutely true. Plus he is anti-choice.
Merlin
· 11 months ago
"Does Obama agree with Rick Warren that gay and lesbian Americans have been "evil" and "hateful" in this affair?
Does Obama agree that gay Americans are not Christians?
Does Obama agree that gays have "Christ-ophobia"?"
John, your example is tragic!!!
Have a joyful Christ-Mass!!!
]
Thomas Taylor
· 11 months ago
This is why I don't read this blog any more. Aravosis lies too much. His mischaracterization of what Warren says in the video is completely dishonest and is designed to advance his argument at the expense of honest reporting and discourse. He completely stoops far below the opposition with this crap of calling out specific accusations that Warren makes against his detractors, or in some cases a specific subset of his detractors, and saying that he leveled those claims at all gay and lesbian people . It is shameful, dishonest, and harmful to the movement for marriage equality. I am disgusted. Serves me right for following Twitter retweet links.
wearing out my F key
· 11 months ago
he only lied about the content of the video because he never thought anyone would watch it.
Ohio_Dem
· 11 months ago
Well here is what Rick Warren says in his own words. Is THAT good enough for you? well I tried to post a link and/or youtube of rick warren speaking but html doesnt work here. so copy/paste http://www.youtube.com/v/ce1ILmS5yMo&hl=en&fs=1
Thomas Taylor
· 11 months ago
Did you watch the video? Warren addresses this topic at length in the first section. I don't agree with his views on gay marriage or sex at all. But I also completely reject the notion that Warren has *equated* homosexuality with incest & pedophilia. Compared them? Yes. Used them in the same paragraph? Yes. Equated? Only in the eyes/ears of a reader/listener completely lacking in critical thinking skills.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Thomas-
To even mention these issues in the same sentence is creating a connection in peoples minds. It is the art of taking two completely un-related events, and by repetition making them connect. It's called 'truthiness'.
Pedophelia, gay people and incest are mutually exclusive events. Most pedophiles are straight. That does not mean that if you are straight you are a pedophile. So why even speak of it in the same breath? Warren does this specifially to create doubt and draw conclusions.
These issues are no more related than potted plants and circus clowns.
tlsintx
· 11 months ago
keep reading the blog, Thomas.
Ohio_Dem
· 11 months ago
And if Pastor Warren had compared african american marriages to incest and pedophilia you would think THAT was just something you don't agree with. How about some of the other things he has said:
1. There's the polygamy, pedophilia, incest comparison. 2. Then there is the little fact that Rick Warren's church has an explicit policy that bans gays from membership.
3. Also, let's not forget the revelation that his church supports an "ex-gay" program
4. Oh, and in the Ann Curry interview, there was that little matter of Rick Warren saying that gays should not be active homos, even if our sexual orientations are proven to be biological
5. There are also the lies Warren has told about marriage equality targeting pastors' free speech.
6. -And THEN there's gay marriage. And it's not that he's just against giving gays that word it's that he AGGRESSIVELY campaigned for Prop 8 injecting a major religious force into this civil matter.
7. And let’s not forget on December 3, Rick Warren agreed with Sean Hannity’s assertion that “we need to take him [Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad] out,”
8. Then there's that time that Pastor Warren compared abortion to the Jewish Holocaust
9. And that time he told a Jewish woman that she was going to burn in Hell.
10 Let's not forget Rick Warren is a male chauvinist who belives and teaches that women must defer to their husband’s “leadership” even when he's wrong.
11. And who can forget that he doesn’t believe in evolution. "dinosaurs and man lived together on the earth, an earth that was filled with vegetation and beauty."
and BTW - I never said "equate" I said "compare."
Thomas Taylor
· 11 months ago
Rick Warren's exclusion of gays from his church, his aggressive and patently dishonest campaigning for Proposition 8, his opposition to full and unfettered access to healthcare by women, and many other failings all conspire to make him a completely unsuitable choice to give the invocation at Obama's inauguration. Those factors do not, however, conspire to give John Aravosis license to intentionally mis-report facts. Warren uses all the words that Aravosis says he did. He just doesn't say them about all gay and lesbian Americans, as Aravosis says he does.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
No, just the LGBT Americans who quite legitimately criticize him for his well documented views and political activity. If they agree to be celibate or try to change their sexual orientation, he is just fine with them.
Thomas Taylor
· 11 months ago
Indeed. A few judicious insertions of qualifying words like "detractors" and "opponents" next to "gays" and "Americans" in the post above would have made a world of difference.
Whatever. If you're all happy railing against Aravosis's straw opponents, that's fine. I'm outta here so that I can go oppose some flesh-and-blood bigots and call them out for stuff that they actually say.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
Don't forget to go after Rick Warren and the people who supported canceling my marriage because I am gay. I think they would qualify as flesh-and-blood bigots.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
How silly, Thomas.
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 11 months ago
Thomas is revealed by Disqus to be a troll who has only entered the fray on this day to bitch out Aravosis and the rest of us. (Only two previous postings in the last year).
This blog has been invaded by Warren's little stooges (and will continue to be, since Maddow publicized it last night).
Thomas Taylor
· 11 months ago
So, my original comment outed me as someone who doesn't read the blog regularly. If someone who doesn't post comments here regularly and then does so when he finds one post to be odiously dishonest makes me a troll, then I guess I am one.
However, drawing from that the conclusion that I am one of "Warren's little stooges" requires skills in dishonest reporting of data as finely honed as those that Aravosis displays above.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
How silly, Thomas.
FunMe
· 11 months ago
Hey, if it pisses off little Thomasita, even better.
When you have Warren cult members here, then John is doing something.
Living it and loving it!
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
"I have been accused of equating gay partnerships with incest and pedophilia. Now of course as members of Saddleback Church, you know I believe no such thing. I never have. You've never once heard me in 30 years talk that way about that."
-- Rick Warren, December 21, 2008
I think my critical thinking skills are pretty good, for what it's worth. "Two lovers living together is a not a marriage. Incest is not marriage. A domestic partnership or even a civil union is still not marriage."
-- Rick Warren, December 15, 2008 (six days earlier)
"I’m opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
Q: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
Everything that John said in the lead up to the video matched perfectly by what Warren said. You have chosen to not see the connection. But it is there. This time John got it spot on. Take another look. Warren does not allow LGBT people in his church. It's right on his website. I wonder how you would feel if you re-watched the video and instead of the references to gay people, replace it with the word 'black people'. ....then perhaps you will see the absurdity and back tracking of Warrens words.
John's assesement is precisely correct. The problem is, we have been so used to being the object of ridicule, we don't see it anymore.....and it's right in front of your eyes.
Watch it again.
wearing out my F key
· 11 months ago
"(warren suggests) that gay and lesbian Americans - gay and lesbian Obama voters - are not Christians. He then goes on to call gays criticizing him "evil."
"bloggers are "rude" and "need to get a life."
warren says nothing of the sort. these accusations made by john are nowhere in this video.
Thomas Taylor
· 11 months ago
John was a bit lazy in his linking, but those quotes do exist. The link in the post goes directly to the third of three sections of the "News and Views" video, without obvious links to the other sections (they're under the "recent posts" header in the right sidebar). The quotes about bloggers appear in section 1; I believe the other quotes are in section 2.
wearing out my F key
· 11 months ago
oh, well. that's a relief. i'll check out the whole thing before pontificating further.
wearing out my F key
· 11 months ago
"I wonder how you would feel if you re-watched the video and instead of the references to gay people, replace it with the word 'black people'." ### for the sake of arguement, i tried this as well. but since warren never says "gay people" anywhere in the video, it wasn't as effective as i had hoped it would be.
but warren did mention "people"... so maybe if just ignore what he said and replace "people" with "gay people"... then replace "gay people" with "black people" .... UGH! WHAT AN ALMOST OUTRAGE! I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT HE ALMOST SAID, BUT DIDN'T REALLY!
postdamnit
· 11 months ago
Well apparently you are reading this blog!
Ohio_Dem
· 11 months ago
LOL!
Thomas Taylor
· 11 months ago
Ha Ha! You caught me! You're absolutely right - if I'm going to call for honesty in language, I should exhibit some myself. "This is why I don't read this blog *regularly* anymore."
Adding, I very occasionally follow a link to AmericaBlog, but mostly avoid them when I see them. It's too bad - Chris and others here are quite good, and Aravosis is mostly good, but occasionally prone to fits of excess, like this, or his occasional geographic bigotry. But when I went to pare down my RSS feeds so that I could get some time back those shortcomings made AmericaBlog an easy call.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
"I have been accused of equating gay partnerships with incest and pedophilia. Now of course as members of Saddleback Church, you know I believe no such thing. I never have. You've never once heard me in 30 years talk that way about that."
-- Rick Warren, December 21, 2008
"Two lovers living together is a not a marriage. Incest is not marriage. A domestic partnership or even a civil union is still not marriage."
-- Rick Warren, December 15, 2008 (six days earlier)
"I’m opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
Q: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
Dear, your flock just scurried back to the ministries....now run along,,,you can catch up...----you and your gang are just as transparent as your leader----
davidkc
· 11 months ago
So much for disagreeing without being disagreeable.
Ohio_Dem
· 11 months ago
I consider having someone's marriage compared to incest disagreeable, don't you?
PJ
· 11 months ago
Truthfully, in reading the comments in this thread, I'd have to say there might be some truth in what John says Pastor Warren said. It's sad.
Merry Christmas
Ohio_Dem
· 11 months ago
And you have no problem at all with what Pastor Warren has said?
tlsintx
· 11 months ago
see how it goes? Ricky can link gays to pedophilia and bestiality all day long, but if gays take issue with that, it's hateful hatey hate speech....
and Ricky pointing that out in his sweet video is just returning love and caring to all those hateful, hateful evil horrible gays...amen.
KISSman
· 11 months ago
Get back under your bridge, troll.
Clearly, this is one of those issues that doesn't affect your life and because of that, the people who are upset are all kooks. If I were gay, I don't think I'd much appreciate being compared to a pedophile as Warren has done. I don't think I'd appreciate many of Warren's characterizations of gay people.
If gay people are hateful towards Christians, it hate only came after Christians decided to do everything in their power to paint them as the lowest form of person on Earth (all the while, they have a wide-spread problem of priests diddling children).
IMO, that hate is well-deserved.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
How passive aggressive of you. Where did you learn to do that?
chowderSF
· 11 months ago
I must say, the troll invasion came early this year. Like locusts, only less attractive.
woodka
· 11 months ago
Hey Rick Warren, I'm not gay, and you're a fucking hateful bigot, ok?
Now shut up.
foxy
· 11 months ago
And Rick's blog trolls like-wise. ie. fucking hateful bigot's
Ben
· 11 months ago
bla bla bla their are much bigger issues than the idiot Rick Warrenso stop complaining about him. I thought he was a bad pick also but I am not going to focus on it him. Because frankly with the economy the way it iand us being in two wars gay marriage just seem pretty low down on the list.
Ohio_Dem
· 11 months ago
We're just getting warmed up. Deal with it.
Ohio_Dem
· 11 months ago
BTW - since there are much bigger issues such as the economy and two wars, why arent you telling Rick Warren to shut up and sit down. He's out running his mouth against the LGBT community to anyone with a camera.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
Ooooo! Very good point!
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
It tends to get bumped a bit higher on the list if your marriage is one of the ones Mr. Warren has attempted to invalidate.
chowderSF
· 11 months ago
grammar check - it's 'there are' - and if you want bigger issues, why are post here? get on over to Foreign Affairs website....dive in.
redemption
· 11 months ago
Um, John is acting psycho and is not accurately reporting. More over, who CARES? You guys are acting selfish and awfully mean. Warren US right. Better to be a bigot than a flame thrower!
foxy
· 11 months ago
Better to be a flamer than a bigot.
foxy
· 11 months ago
BTW, your false prophet Warren will burn in hell.
tlsintx
· 11 months ago
yes. we're horrible horrible people. always wanting to be treated as human beings. that is just so mean.
troll off please.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
Yet again I'm struck by Rick Warren's lack of intelligence. Not that he's stupid. Just that he isn't very bright. He makes these standard defenses of his actions and isn't able to see through them despite the fact that they are very transparent. After lowering himself to making childlike responses to the backlash against him, he says that he and his church are going to respond by continue to "love, love, love". That would be "love", as in name calling, condemning to hell and revoking marriages. He mentions that his church has sent more people overseas to help the poor than any church. I would guess that the Catholic Church dwarfs that number. And when it comes to money and world wide charities, the Catholics have it hands down, despite Warren's claim that his church is the most generous in America. But mostly I'm struck by his response of name calling followed by saying that their response will be to continue to love, love, love. One can't be very introspective and still do something that obvious. But the self-righteous generally see themselves as righteous rather than as being at fault. Of course Warren's kind of love is both a defense against attack, and a weapon. And as we have seen with Pastor Rick, when it comes to gay people, his "love" is most definitely a weapon.
tlsintx
· 11 months ago
i wonder what Ricky's downfall will be? you know it's just a matter of time...
FunMe
· 11 months ago
Can you imagine if he's another Ted Haggard? Too funny!
desert bat
· 11 months ago
This snake oil salesman makes a-theism attractive.
Marc
· 11 months ago
I am a gay jew and I am grateful that the majority of my fellow Jews had the good sense to vote against Prop 8. We were all in the concentration camps together after all.
Warren's choice is pure politics. We are the group of choice in this era to be sacrificed on the altar of political expediency. I was hopeful after years of being relentlessly attacked by the most phobic admin in history we might have a change. But no, our community is a political football to be exploited and tossed back and forth by both sides. At least the Republicans are authentic in their discrimination against us.
Melissa Etheridge is a tool and a disgrace. Warren likes her music and said nice things to her so that means he is a wonderful guy and the gay community should make him our best friend. Egotistical idiot.She needs to get a clue or just stick with music and leave the struggle to people who are not fools that fall for con jobs.
scottinsf
· 11 months ago
One of the exit polls I saw that measured voter preference by religious affiliation showed that Jews voted against prop 8 at significantly higher numbers than any other religion. I don't remember the numbers and can't find the poll but remember seeing it.
percol8r
· 11 months ago
I don't have Christ-phobia. I just have Rick Warren-phobia. Unfortunately, he thinks they are one and the same.
outwithbenjiboi
· 11 months ago
I do agree that there are benefits to listening respectfully to those who are different from me -- IF (and this is a big IF) -- the two parties hold equal power in whatever arena in which they debating, and recognize their own equality on a human level.
Would Jesus have told the woman being stoned to death to "listen respectfully" to the views of those who based their condemnation of her on thousands of years of "the way it's always been" law?
God weeps for the politically and criminally oppressed, and I presume that he would ask more of us than to "listen respectfully" to the sinful justifications of oppressors.
As a life-long Presbyterian queer who will begin a Masters in Christian Education in the Spring, I understand all too well the views of my oppressor.
Rick Warren and his kind are WRONG about gays -- but that doesn't matter one bit. Because the bigger issue is that they hold power, and gays are still subordinate to that majority power.
Before anyone can "listen respectfully" -- before the eyes and ears of people like Rick Warren can truly be opened -- the balance of political and social power must be equalized.
Calling for mutual respect now -- during a time of ACTIVE oppression and crimes against LGBT people -- only panders to and serves the needs of those with power.
When Rick Warren sees me as his spiritual and moral -- and my love for my wife as worthy of respect as his own for his -- I'll be happy to "listen respectfully" to him. In the meantime, I'll keep working on elevating my power in the differential.
Jen Russell Washington DC
Topher
· 11 months ago
Great post, and you are totally right. The venue to have a discussion where "all sides" come together and "listen respectfully" to each other is within each individual church community regarding their own faith's definition of marraige. The Episcopalians, for example, have been coming together to dissucss equality for gays in their own membership for quite some time (as have the Presbyterians, I believe). The fact that apparently we in the gay community are somehow required to have this "respectful conversation" in the public sphere regarding our secular civil rights is completely absurd, especially in light of the continued physical, mental and societal attacks against the gay community. What I think is interesting is that in the end, if there were gay equality, RW and the like would be able to more freely practice their brand of anti-gay "christianity" because I suspect that gays who are into religion wouldn't be rushing into Saddleback Church to have this "congenial discussion" on the role of gays in religion. Rather, I'd venture to guess that they would migrate to religious communities where this respectful conversation is already taking place.
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
Hear, hear!
Amen and Amen!
My vote for best comment of the day!
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Amen. Plus, to have a dialogue with someone assumes that the dialogue can potentially create change. Rick Warren thinks his views are the word of God, so there is no possibility of change there. Might as well talk to your dog or a brick wall.
NGLTF
· 11 months ago
What is so stunning is that Rick Warren and the pro-Prop 8 people are currently trying to annul all the existing gay marriages in California and break up families with adopted children. What could be more hateful than that? Why doesn't the media ask Rick Warren to respond to that? The effect of his assaults on gay families are as hateful as you can get.
Shawn
· 11 months ago
I thought Melissa Etheridge told me to calm down because he was nice to her. What do I know? I guess I need a celebrity to help lead me.
Peaches
· 11 months ago
Maybe if we were all rock stars with many albums, Rick Warren would love us all. How fucking self-involved is Melissa Etheridge that all a bigot has to say to her is "I love your music and have all your albums" and she decides that he's "no gay hater."
AngelaChanning
· 11 months ago
Christianists love to invoke that they are the ones being persecuted.
FunMe
· 11 months ago
Their typical MO is to discriminate against gays/lesbians and when you fight back they say they are being "persecuted". Yeah right. THEY are the ones who are doing the persecuting.
It's like the homophobes saying they are not homophobes when you know they are.
The big clue: when they say "homosexual lifestyle". Yeah right, whatever. They only confirm that they are doing the persecuting even more.
I don't think of them as Christians at all. More like "religious" fanatics.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Yes, it reminds them of those greatly exaggerated stories about Romans and gladiators and being fed to lions and such.
Truthseeker
· 11 months ago
Why do we, as GLBT people, give ANYBODY our votes or our money? I'm really beginning to wonder.
scottinsf
· 11 months ago
I agree with those that've made the observation that the mormon trolls were generally a funner bunch than these dour saddleback trolls.
Topher
· 11 months ago
And I'm no fool, but it almost seemed like some of the Mormons were actually educated along the way. These trolls are completly uncreative and just flat out Homers.
scottinsf
· 11 months ago
I think you're right. Remember the central argument with some of them was that we weren't going after anyone else. That we were singling them out. Well...here we go.
One difference is that not only did Warren attack gay Californians through the ballot box, he verbally attacked all LGBT people very recently with the incest and pedophile comparisons. The mormon church is a bit more careful with their tone now that the election is over.
NGLTF
· 11 months ago
Notice Rick says "We have NO intention of changing." So much for those pushing the strategy of dialogue and building bridges.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Amen. Rick Warren's idea of dialogue is a one-way street.
Doug
· 11 months ago
I feel good about this debate. Rick Warren isn't a man of hatred, he's just ignorant to the real hopes and dreams we have as gay people. He cant see that he could be wrong and if you cant see something how can you remedy it? He and his fellow christians like him have blinders on that prevent them from seeing our struggle. They are ignorant to us but that doesn't mean they all hate us! some do, but we need to show them our best and help take those blinders off. By being hateful and spiteful we are no better than the Rick Warrens of the world... Peace to you all and don't hate me for trying to be thoughtful and open minded to those I don't agree with...
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
As someone whose marriage is on the legal chopping block as a result of Rick Warren and his Christian ilk, I have to say that their love comes across exactly like hatred. It may or may not be true hatred, but the result is exactly the same.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
What is hateful about pointing out that someone you disagree with is wrong and has said terribly offensive things? You are right about one thing, though, he cannot see that he could be wrong and he never, ever will. When you are on record as saying that your opinion is the word of God, then it becomes impossible to change. Rick Warren accept gay marriage or non-celibate gay people as an acceptable, non-sinful way of living, or even just as one that should be treated equally to heterosexual unions in all respects by the government? Ain't gonna happen. So what dialogue can we have with him?
mirth
· 11 months ago
Two other things Warren says jump out at me.
Stating what he will continue to do, giving lie to Obama's philosophy of inclusion to reach consensus:
"We have no intention of changing."
And (chillingly, now that he is to be included in Obama policy discussions), perhaps telling his true intent and suggesting he does not grasp the concept of secular government, he will continue to "equip servant leaders."
The only comfort I take from Warren's words is his pissed off tone. We're getting to him.
Pour it on.
Obama: NO!
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
It wasn't exactly a brilliant move on the part of Warren to further fan the flames of controversy with this Christmas message, considering the inauguration is less than a month away. The man is no genius.
mirth
· 11 months ago
You correctly state Warren's lack of acuity.
What is most distressing is that I now question Obama's.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
That is really troubling, mirth. Where does he find these people? Why does he honor them? What is it with these ministers he chooses to honor? Obama didn't get the message after the Donnie McClurkin flap, nor the Jeremiah Wright flap. What is going on?
Lolly
· 11 months ago
True. He apparently hasn't gotten to the part in the Bible about "turning the other cheek," has he?
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
Nor casting stones.
waye t
· 11 months ago
and what kind of pastor gets into the restaurant business - there's some hard core emotional eating going on - i wonder what problem he is trying so hard to eat his way out of? http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/blogs/newsandvi...
foxy
· 11 months ago
Gluttony is sin. He's going to burn in hell....with that amount of fat for a very long time.
Observer
· 11 months ago
Obama only wants to deny us marriage & Warren only thinks we're going to Hell.
Both of them want to throw me -- a recreational cannabis user -- in prison.
To those saying, "Warren isn't being given a position in the Adminstration!" I say: BUT ERIC 'Mandatory Minimums' HOLDER HAS BEEN GIVEN A VERY POWERFUL ONE!
Will you help me to liberate the non-violent cannabis users of America?
Will you help me fight the bigoted ignorance of Obama, Warren & Holder?
Thank you.
FunMe
· 11 months ago
Can you send a message to Rick Warren?
Merry Christmas, you are a still a fat cow and hateful little man. Christian? I don't think so!
Topher
· 11 months ago
OT: Does RW earn appearance fees? Did he proplerly disclose the amount of support he provided to the Proposition 8 campaign? If he had violated election law, would the endorsement change?
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
"We're the best!", "NO-ONE has EVER done more!", "NO church has done as much, loved as much, given as much as we have!"
Not only are some of those statements absolutlely untrue, they are UNBELIEVABLY ARROGANT, self-agrandizing and pompous. There is NO humility in his words. Their is NO meekness in his words.
This man REALLY needs to read the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes.
He also failed to elaborate on the "education" that the brags about having fostered, will continue to foster, and "WILL NOT CHANGE" which includes their sexual reorientation "education" ministry.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
Of all the Christian "lights of the world", clearly Rick Warren is not the brightest bulb.
RobertSanDimas
· 11 months ago
No matter how fast this phoney baloney guy tries to backtrack, seem contrite, "repent" about his bigoted teachings, I don't want him anywhere near my President's inauguration. This is the most important inauguration in my lifetime (prior to this it was JFK's - the first inauguration I can remember was Ike's - I know, YIKES!!!). Warren will taint it. Too bad he's not doing the benediction instead. That way we could turn it off quickly while we're still smiling and giddy before he starts spewing. OK, now who will be the first to say, "Chill, Robert!?"
jerryCA
· 11 months ago
So Melissa Etheridge... still think Ricky Warren is NOT gay-hater. You can't talk with hard-core fundies. Ain't no way you can reason with them. I read Melissa's message on DailyKos about her talk with Ricky Warren. Send the video to Melissa and tell her what a patsy and a fool she is.
Antinous
· 11 months ago
After listening to Melissa on "The View", I came to this conclusion, she is not the brightest bulb on the string. She does not have an in depth understanding of the issues and is very easily swayed.
PippaPasses
· 11 months ago
Obamanation:
Warren scuffle is like being asked to make nice with one's abuser. The answer is still "No" -- but that's not anti-Xian.
"Rick Warren Syndrome" - Getting all of one's information from a highly-debatable source, but never from the population actually affected. Saying anything that comes into their heads, but never taking responsibility for what it does to others. Also known as "cursing."
"We'll pray about it." = Accountability is for heathens.
"Give it to God" = We're not responsible.
"You're evil" = Intellectual honesty is for 'secularists.'
Mark
· 11 months ago
Gee, I wonder what Melissa "Mouth" Etheridge thinks about this, after her offensive and mortifying editorial yeserday at HuffPo.
whomod
· 11 months ago
Not even others gays are safe from the wrath of the Anti-Inauguration Ceremony brigade.
mark
· 11 months ago
My heart is broken that Obama has chosen Warren to play any part. In doing so, he's giving some legitimacy to Warren, a month after he helped pass Prop 8, which took away a state granted right -- oh and one Obama doesn't support, either.
You cannot say you support us and deny us rights. Support isn't a question of degree. It isn't conditional. Unless you're my parents.
Sorry, but I'm not settling.
Obama wants to repeal DADT. Great. Now I can die for the country that doesn't support me.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
I think Melissa got punked by Warren. He is not our friend, and ain't ever gonna be. When you think your opinions are the word of God, there's not much room for change.
Mark
· 11 months ago
I agree. Warren punked her good. She actually thinks that Warren has bought her albums and is a fan. If he was a fan, he would understand gays a little more than he's shown so far as Melissa's songs in large part reflect the pain of being gay in a straight world. Her songs are poetry which reveal her struggles and triumphs as a lesbian. I guess Warren doesn't get poetry sicne he doesn't get the bible either.
IAmATVJunkie
· 11 months ago
He's right about one thing, I am not a Christian.
Really never have been. Sure, I was raised in the Catholic Church and confirmed but I certainly do not identify as such.
And I certainly don't fear or dislike Christ, I just have a believability issue.
((( Does Obama agree with Rick Warren that gay and lesbian Americans have been "evil" and "hateful" in this affair? Does Obama agree that gay Americans are not Christians? Does Obama agree that gays have "Christ-ophobia"? )))
No.
This has been another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
whomod
· 11 months ago
[Applause]
THANK YOU!
[/Applause]
Any more dumb questions to try to drag obama down based on whatever Warren thinks?
:Let's see....
Does Obama like pleated khaki's?
whomod
· 11 months ago
Yes, because devoting an entire blog entry to point out that Warren is fat isn't hateful nor is it rude.
And all the instant knee-jerk type devoted to attacking the Christian religion whenever it is brought up (either here or in any progressive blog) sure as shit doesn't sound like "Christophobia" to me. Sure it's a silly moniker, but as someone who has long advocated reaching out to Christians (90+% of the population don'tcha know) instead of alienating them, I sure as shit get weary of reading the same usual attacks on faith in general whenever it comes up.
It may look like victory but really if there is any victory happening here, it's only a Pyrrhic one. You're alienating moderates, you're alienating Christians, you're alienating Obama supporters. And not because of any policy positions or legislation passed by obama. It's because he invites someone to speak for 10 minutes at some even that will be soon forgotten by everyone (well most everyone at least I still don't know about John).
And it's amazing that you continue to try to drag Obama down because of Warren's beliefs or conduct. Get over yourselves already. It's starting to look like if Warren is just an excuse, just gauging the venom hurled incessantly at ANYTHING obama does now.
Antinous
· 11 months ago
Are you really that shallow..........
dave
· 11 months ago
John. Why didn't you just say obama's palling around with warren? I can't seem to find the post on the other preacher at the Inauguration.
Ben Dover
· 11 months ago
Oh no! In all the bro-ha-ha we have forgotten that
TODAY IS FESTIVUS!
Hope yours is as big of an occasion as our will be.
A toast to you all on this most magical day of the year, FESTIVUS!
Stuart Kaufman
· 11 months ago
John,
By way of introduction, I'm a gay man, living in California, and probably as hurt and angry over Prop. 8 as you are. By inviting Warren to deliver the benediction at his inauguration, I don't think that Obama was consciously Sistah Souljah-ing us, but I do think that he failed to appreciate how that invitation would feel to those who believe in full equality, and especially now. I also think that Obama isn't the only one who's being a little tone deaf here, and the person I'd propose adding to that list is you.
I ask you to consider who Obama is and his personal history, and then tell me, if you can, that he hasn't had to make nice to racists any number of times by now, and overcome sometimes intense personal discomfort to do that. I would suppose that, to him, that kind of experience comes with the territory for minority group members in public life, and it wouldn't surprise me if his having had to overcome his own strong feelings to reach out to some pretty repellent types, himself, would have made him less sensitive to the feelings of those of us who are hurt and insulted by the Warren invitation.
Obama has unequivocally reaffirmed his personal commitment to full equality for gays and lesbians, such as it was (i.e., without the right to marry) before the Warren invitation was issued, and I'd say that if that was good enough for a man in his position before, then let's decide that it's good enough now, and stop the bitter recrimination, which isn't going to do any of us any good. The lesson here is that we've got to keep our eye on Obama, as we would anyone in his office, maintain effective forms of pressure on him to do the right thing. Anything further we have to say about Warren, or any issue that may arise down the road, should serve that strategy. Insulting Obama -- and accusing him of pulling a Sistah Souljah is insulting -- isn't the way to do that.
NGLTF
· 11 months ago
Can you please name just one single instance in which Obama reached out to build bridges and dialogue with either the KKK, White Aryan Resistance, or some other racist group?
Carlton
· 11 months ago
It is the way we FEEL about the issue right now - we got knocked around on Prop 8 and then we get sucker punched by the incoming President we helped elect. It sucks.
Mark
· 11 months ago
I have also defended Obama on this blog and others but there's one thing that doesn't sit well with me since I remembered it last week. You causally refer to it in parenthesis "...(i.e., without the right to marry)" but this deserves a lot more attention especially given WHY he said he didn't believe in marriage for Gays. He said and you may remember it: "..because God is in the mix". I personally am not religious but I know a lot Gay Christians who were deeply offended when Obama said this. Does Obama mean that God does not aprove of Gay people and therefore they should not be married "under God"? Is this the common ground he and Warren share? And why has Obama not been called out for this by Gay Christians (or Jews, or Hundu's or Muslims etc?). I know most of us are secular and could give a sh*t about this but should we not stand by Gay People of Faith? and where are they that they are not standing up for themselves? I will keep my eye on Obama as well but my enthusiasm for him has been diminished.
xcitizen
· 11 months ago
I don't believe Obama would make a statement that would discriminate against us vis a vis God. I think his comment "..because God is in the mix" could quite possibly indicate he believes that the rights won by gays must be won on a secular level - because ideally there would be a separation of church and state, and marriage is (unfortunately) at this point still merged with the churches. It is a complex statement and could be open to interpretation, but I don't believe Obama would be politically naive enough to suggest that gays are somehow Godless. Still, this statement is a little disturbing.
Sean Chapin
· 11 months ago
I'll take this one step further and ask Rick Warren if he is "trying to build bridges" and reach out to all groups, instead of creating division through accusatory dialog, whether warranted or not. We need symbols of unification, not symbols of division, and I think Barack Obama now needs to look at Rick Warren and see if Warren truly embodies the ideals of inclusion that Obama harbors and if that would enhance or tarnish the themes behind Obama's inauguration.
Antinous
· 11 months ago
If we must be sent away in stocks and chains, let us not go silently, let our screams of protest ring in the ears of our tormentors forevermore. There is no dignity in submissive silence.
whomod
· 11 months ago
Obama is sending you out in stocks and chains ????
I must've missed that press conference.
Personal Failure
· 11 months ago
trust me, the religious right would be ecstatic if they could take the gays away in chains, and then the gays' friends, family members, supporters . . .
whomod
· 11 months ago
Yes. And the religious right would be exstatic if all TV shows were canceled and replaced by the 700 club.
So what?
PeerOne
· 11 months ago
GEEZ, will the second coming just COME already? I can't take this much more!
Jonathan_Justice
· 11 months ago
Since our little hermitage has only dial-up access to the Internet, I will take your word for the content of Warren's video. I would, however like to suggest a somewhat different take on the President Elect's intentions in the matter. It looks to me as if he rather expected much of this and is watching it all play out the way one might watch a baking cake.
Warren abused Barak Obama twice in the election cycle. First, there was the disingenuous business in his "discussions" with the presidential candidates, and then there was the misrepresentation of the candidate's position on Proposition 8. Some ancient references are translated to indicate that this is false witness. More recent references suggest that it should be understood as being like an unwelcome sexual interaction. I doubt that Senator Obama felt all that positive about it. I do not doubt that the experiences gave him a pretty good opportunity to measure Warren's weaknesses.
The President Elect would seem to have given Rick Warren a make or break opportunity. Had he done the "make" aide of the opportunity, Warren would have gone for the low profile, done an innoffensive invocation, and been installed as the defacto Pope of the Religious Right, with the appearance of White House access and his reputation more or less intact. That did not happen, so lets look at the "break" side. The "break" arm is potentially of some importance: Warren is indeed the heir apparent as Dobson and Robertson shuffle off to join Kennedy and Falwell in whatever afterlife you care to imagine. By demonstrating that he lacks the finesse that previous Evangelical leaders used to snuggle up to Presidents while preaching looniness, Warren knocks himself down, hard. Precisely because so many Evangelical/Fundamentalist Americans are authoritarians whose worship of God gets seriously conflated with a hardly covert worship of Country and the correct performance of certain public rituals, making even a Black and Democratic President look bad as the Inauguration approaches tends to undercut one's authority. The Inauguration is the President's show. That an invited participant would choose to buy into the attention being focused on himself instead of deferring to the President Elect is bad form. Appropriately framed criticism, delivered after the honeymoon, is expected, but hissy fits at this stage are a problematical distraction that tend to indicate that the guy does not understand the situation he finds himself in and thus will not be able to deliver the desired clout. As someone else has suggested this tends to suggest that he is "not ready for prime time."
Are the slights to Candidate Obama avenged? Is that really the question? Is the Religious Right leadership stuck with even more confusion and political weakness than the Bush Administration brought it to? That is a much more interesting question. My Magic 8 Ball says, "Yes."
How then does this impact the new Administration and the hopes and interests that GLBT & Friends bring to the national political process? While it does suggest that John and his friends should have tea with Miss Manners every Monday for the next six months, the more important consideration is that the political reactor which powers the Religious Right is falling below critical mass and running low on money. Warren has blown his opportunity here in a big way, and Obama hardly had to lift a finger. Perhaps we will not see Congresses as effective as say 1861 or 1933 but it is a good bet that we will come close. So, get the facts out, play by the rules. win big, but call it a Restoration.
I would personally prefer that Rick Warren had set himself down with Katherine Schori Jeffords, Jeremiah Wright, and Gene Robertson and had himself a bit of an epiphany, sometime early in January, but that does seem increasingly unlikely.
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
Sorry, but I just don't buy the concept that Obama elevated Warren to the level of "defacto Pope of the Religious Right" as a form of political retribution, or as a way to expose, weaken or humiliate him. But I do love the phrase, "Pope of the Religious Right".
Jonathan_Justice
· 11 months ago
Thanks for your kind words about my words.
Perhaps I do read overmuch into what I see. Over the last week, I read David McCullough's John Adams biography so I am particularly conscious of the kind of scheming even the good guys do in Presidential politics. Sandburg and Vidal suggest that Lincoln did a bit of this sort of political judo as well.
Obama did not have the power to elevate Warren from moderate somethingness to preeminence. It was not hard to see that Warren's campaign for the papal recliner was well under way. What Obama was offering him was a way to seal the deal, or break it. Whine is the wrong response, especially for aspiring hierarchs. I am suggesting that Obama's analysis was that various forms of failure were far more likely outcomes and that success was an outcome that would also enhance his position. All that is not to suggest that I think Obama wanted Warren to fail. I did not either. Unfortunately for Rick Warren, my version of success is where RW goes on an extended tour with Religious Righters Anonymous making restitution to all the folks he has injured over the years (and sorts out the issues that drive his weight gain).
If my guesses hold up, however, our role is still problematical in that we get to be the cat's paw that does the messy work of helping Warren to eviscerate himself in public. While this beats being thrown under the bus, it leaves us with a lot of washing up to do before we go to the soiree with polite society. That is why I was suggesting a bit of a graduate seminar with Judith Martin (if she is still available).
RitornaVincitor
· 11 months ago
Jon Carroll has written a very good article in his San Francisco Chronicle column.
He strikes me as a closet case. countdown to toe-tapping in a men's restroom 5...............4.............3........2...............
paulbe
· 11 months ago
Given the way American christians have chosen to define themselves, then Warren is a christian. This is what American christians are about. More of that freedom we foreigners apparently hate you for. BTW anyone heard from the Pope lately? Seems we're ecologically bad news as well as everything else.
Chuck Swanson
· 11 months ago
I am not a gay person, but I FULLY support your right to marry, adopt children, and do ANYTHING ELSE that heterosexuals may do LEGALLY.
Hang in there, and it will happen. It may take some time, but it will occur.
We are ALL God's children, despite what the right-wing religious BIGOTS say.
.
mommadona
· 11 months ago
I"m having an Anita Bryant/Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell Tinky Winky moment here.....
Can't Rick and his Pals play nice in the sandbox? No?
Then, they need their 501c3 RELIGIOUS NONPROFIT status pulled and put into a corner for a bit to contemplate that ample navel.
gymnjim
· 11 months ago
Christophobia, is it really even possible in the US.
If you take the definition of the suffix to be extreme and irrational fear. And christo to be Christians.
Given that past few centuries of western history; is any fear of Christians irrational? If you are an Atheist, Jew, Muslim or gay; I would have to say fear of Christians is rational and possibly health.
Examples
Fear that gays will destroy your heterosexual marriage - irrational.
Fear that Christians will destroy your gay marriage- quite rational.
All Comments
I am all for everyone having a voice. We all know that the hatemongers have had their voices heard for the last eight years. Why, oh why are we giving them the pulpit AGAIN when what this country needs is someone who is going to actively work for equality, not pay lipservice to it? The GLBT community has every right to be offended by this decision. Now, I don't intend to walk out of the theatre before the show has started, but the overture is thusfar unimpressive...
Well, we can move on and raise the tone. Now in the Rev. Rick Warren's use of the name of Christ to advance his political agenda is the will to set the Constitution aside and abolish the separation of church and state. Mr. Obama apparently supports that agenda and so we now have two presidents in a row who hold the Constitution to be "just a piece of paper."
Mr. Obama . . . put your shirt on.
this is change?
Gay Americans were slighted by Obama when he picked Warren. Now, Obama's complicit in Warren's damning of us.
This is why I was very slow to come over to Obama...his voting record showed him to be anything BUT a progressive.....
and I worked my A$$ off helping him get elected here in Dumbstick-istan NW Florida !!!
What a hypocrite.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone....so says the good book.
Oddly enough, his entire rant could have been done today by just substituting a name here and there.
Funny how the "right to lifers" are the main supporters of:
death squads in south america (insert Iraq/Afganistan)
death penalty
killing abortion doctors
Funny how little has changed since the days of RAYGUN in this country. What a shame.....
What will it take for our government to move AWAY FROM THESE RW crazies????
But, then I was surprised when I read her HuffPo post and she said she never heard of Warren before this.
I mean, she must be pretty unaware of current events not to know who warren is--best selling author, host of the saddleback debate.
I'm not sure somebody that unaware is the best person to discuss this with him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_complex
I think that Rick is 'chock-full-o-nuts' and just full of himself. And maybe I am just being 'phobe-o-phobic.' But never 'Christ-o-phobic.' But I feel the love, Rick. Really, I do.
It's a fucking prayer, for Christ's sake, not the end of the republic.
You'd think that someone who said so many hateful, disgusting, and misogynistic things about Clinton not 8 months ago would perhaps realize that being an asshole is no preserve of the right. Perhaps you are right, however, and the language one uses is reflective of the entirety of his soul.
Just like any written word, the Bible is INTERPRETED by everyone in their own way. Sorry, that is just the way the mind works. It is not always clear and that leads people like Warren to stand up on a pulpit and feel that their interpretation is the only interpretation. I guarantee you Ricky boy that my interpretation of it is far different than yours even though we read the same words. I also guarantee that I live my life in reality, not trying to decipher meanings of passages made thousands of years.
Just go away, no one gives a shit about your whining.
"Black community invites Rick Warren to give
keynote at annual MLK service "
http://www.hinessight.com
One could pick and choose any group and find plenty of unenlightened people. Sweeping generalizations only divide us.
When they invite a speaker that has actively worked (and continues to work to deny them their rights) and when they invite someone who compares them to the lowest form of criminals, THEN you have a story about a group "reaching out" to people they disagree with. For an African-American group to invite a homophobe, unfortunately at this point, is business as usual.
Franly I'm getting tired of people trying to minimize the importance of this by showing us how many OTHER minority friends this homophobe has. It's not hard to find homophobic friends in ANY minority group you choose. Hell, you can find homophobes in gay groups and you can even find gay groups that seem to be founded on their homophobia (check out gaypatriot.com).
It just too bad that the late Corretta Scott King (god rest her soul) is not here to add her words and wisdom to this situation.
I had hoped he realized the pain he caused and was at least trying to be civil in an "agree to disagree" sort of way.
But this makes him sound like some kind of Fox News lunatic.
Warren is as evil as they come and seems to take great joy in bastardizing and cherry picking his bible. He's an unrepentant charlatan just like all the others.
And may it lead to his speedy and total downfall. The sooner the better.
2 Peter 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them.
Matthew 22:37-39 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
I know that my UCC church has been vandalized three times in the short THREE years that I've been there. EVERY attack came after we made a public statement in support of the gay community or a statement against the war in Iraq.
Strangely enough when liberal churches get attacked it seldom makes the news unless someone is actually killed (like in the Unitarian Church in TN). Oh, and by the way, (how many of Pastor Warren's flock have been murdered while worshipping at his sanctuary?
I've heard story after story about how the gays have vandalized and attacked this Mormon church or that Baptist church. The claims are made even when there is absolutely NO evidence to indicate that gay people had anything to do with the act (ie Wasilla Baptist Church and the white powder allegedly sent to a Mormon Temple). Yet churches that are gay supportive are vandalized, their worshippers harassed and even killed, and hardly anyone says a thing and when they do they go OUT OF THEIR WAY to NOT to mention the fact that the perpetrator was a FUNDAMENTALIST CHRISTIAN and "member" of the "fundamentalist Christian community" the way they go all out to tie NONEXISTENT suspects of anti-Christian vandalism to gay people and the "gay community".
This is just another example of how our society and our culture has a very tidy way of making the gay community always look like the villains and the religious community always look like victims.
I saw the same shameful tactics used against black people in my home state of MS in the 1960's.
It's despicable!!!
What a terrible loss for the Americablog community!
Shall we cover our mirrors, rend our black garments and sit shivah? And how long of a shivah sitting does a virtual death from a virtual community warrant?
So many questions in the internet age.
But that was about Rev. Wright condemning American hate groups and the murder of civilians with aggressive war.
What does Obama's honor of Warren say to Women? Gays? Hippies? Hemp farmers? Rationalists? Brothers with baggy pants?:
"Fuck all y'all!"
If Ricky thinks this-too-shall-pass, he's as delusional as he is dangerous.
He and his Mormon Cult buddies started this fight and it's not going to go away.
Here's the link to the video where he explains how he wants gay couples to have equal rights and all he's concerned about is the word marriage. He also explains about the incest and pedophilia comment, that claim by john a little outrageous. It's also irresponsible reporting not to point out this video as well.
It's also fair to point out, where he made those alleged "incest and pedophilia" comments - here http://www.beliefnet.com/Video/Beliefnet-Interv... - he also points out that divorce is far more a threat to traditional marriage than gay marriage in his eyes and that Christians are hypocrite's for always fawning over gay marriage - don't mention that though do you?
As for the incest and pedophilia comment - any logical person can realize he was just trying to come up with other relationships besides a heterosexual couple or a gay couple, and frankly try, it's not easy.
At least here, at this site, the Chrito-phobia comment seems apt to me.
I can't believe you have turned me into someone who has to defend a christian never mind a megachurch guy. See what you've done. Now imagine what actual religious people are doing.
why would i want to try to come up with insults against a persecuted minority? somehow i don't think anybody here "turned you into" a defender of bigots. you do this as a hobby.
No?
So there's no comparison to his activism against gay marriage, is there?
Run along.
This country has enough problems without some blowbag inciting more hate and division.
Stand up Obama, stand up and say we as a country will not stand for this anymore. Hate is hate, no matter who the target is.
Then goes on about how he doesn't hate anyone and how his followers need to be civil in the face of anything.
And then talks of his support for equality for gay couples.
Seriously, watch the videos.
SHAME ON JOHN ARAVOSIS FOR CLEARLY LYING AND TRYING TO STIR UP MORE DIVISION!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/melissa-etheridge...
It really irks me when people like Melissa Etheridge and her girlfriend (can't call her wife anymore) don't bother to do the slightest bit of research on the man they are defending. Warren in his double speak Beliefnet interview opossed civil unions and domestic partnerships just last week.
http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/12...
Clarification from Pastor Warren 12/15: I now see you asked about civil UNIONS -and I responded by talking about civil RIGHTS. Sorry. They are two different issues. No American should ever be discriminated against because of their beliefs. Period. But a civil union is not a civil right. Nowhere in the constitution can you find the "right" to claim that any loving relationship identical to marriage. It's just not there. ]
You have spent literally hours and hundreds, if not thousands, of words doing this. Just bumping off video evidence and valid points left and right and continuing with your defense of Warren crusade.
Really bubba, what's up with that? What in it for you to be so passionate even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary? Are you on the Saddleback payroll?
Why is it still ok to hate and trash gays? Why, as gays, DO WE PUT UP WITH THIS?
There are a lot of people groups who are in bad shape in regards to civil rights or cultural acceptance. Some people identify as polyamorous, and while I don't know what this is like as it is not my identity, I can entertain the hypothesis that at least some of these people are sincere and can best be happy and productive members of society and parents through polyamorous relationships, maybe deserving of government and social recognition. However, when I speak about gay marriage with conservative people, I always have to bite my tongue and assure the conservatives that "it's wrong to fear that gay marriage could lead to polygamous marriage," rather than step outside of their fears to make them ask a broader civil and moral question, "is it really wrong to fear polygamy per se in the first place?" I understand that people are concerned about examples where polygamy is used coercively, for instance in cults, but that doesn't mean that _every_ single group of people who ever identify as polyamorous enter into coercive and destructive relationships. I'm not talking merely about a hypothesis. I have friends for whom polyamory is a blessing, and it sucks that we can't give this aspect of their sexuality respect and embrace. As far as civil rights and social acceptance go, polyamory is in _some_ ways a worse place than gay rights--in the public lay person's (casual TV watching of 10-second sound bites) gay rights debate, rarely do people question whether it's ok to demonize polyamory; when the subject arises the two sides usually disagree on how likely gay marriage is to lead to plural marriage. I don't like being the object of a civil rights debate, but I don't think I would like being the "foil" whose rights are not even being debated, only used as a threat in someone else's civil rights debate.
> Why is it still ok to hate and trash gays? Why, as gays, DO WE PUT UP WITH THIS?
I guess we put up with this because we're busy, and we have other things to do in the day, so we can't go out and protest every day. Protesting every day sounds like one way to guarantee that I have lost my life to the gay rights conflict.
I'm not sure exactly how to answer the question, "Why is it still ok to hate and trash gays?" Though I'd say in the context of the post, it's not _just_ gays. Gay people are not _the last and only_ hated minority. I don't know that that makes people feel any better. :(
Not one time did he accuse or single out gay people.
Why fan the flames of hate and discourse by posting outright lies? Does this make us no better than the people who would oppress us?
Or is it because Rick Warren is nothing but a loud mouthed bible-thumping hypocrite?
I would vote for the latter.
he talked for 30 seconds about the "outcry", said more or less there are no hard feelings, and ends it with a hearty "god loves everybody... then goes on about other matters for 7 minutes. way to get under his skin americablog!
What we rationally fear is False Christians like Rick Warren who demonize us for power and money. He's more interested in profits then prophets. In his video he's bragging about $$$. Charity is supposed to be a practice for the humble.
Facts: Rick Warren is a christian pastor
Facts: Rick Warren thinks the term Marriage is a religious term that should not be redefined.
Facts: Rick Warren supports giving equal rights to gay couples - watch the videos, i have yet to see a video where he doesn't actually say this
Facts: Rick Warren is against Gay marriage because he thinks marriage is a religious term that should remain as it has been defined.
Facts: This is no different than almost all churches and pastors in the country
Facts: This is a basic idea of Christianity
Facts: By calling this hateful you are in essence calling the beliefs of a wide majority of Christians hateful
Facts: This falls into his "Christo-phobia" category as you are calling basically all if not most Christians hateful
Facts: Rick Warren never said gay couples were the equivalent to "incest and pedophilia" in that they are morally equal - he said they are equal in that they, if allowed, would all redefine marriage.
Facts: I, if given the chance, would end all organized religion if I could, and you force me to defend them because I hate lying.
Facts: Rick Warren will not make a single policy decision
Facts: Barack Obama supports equality for gay couples, repealing DOMA and "don't ask don't tell"
Facts: Barack Obama, also being a Christian, believes marriage is a religious term
Facts: Rick Warren will be saying a prayer - with the same held beliefs as all the religious men and women who swore in a president in the past
Facts: The pastor who swore in Clinton
Facts: I bet nobody here remember off the top of their head who Bill Clinton used for this very purpose
Facts: Unless you read about it recently you're still thinking
Facts: It was Billy Graham - did Clinton using Billy Graham shoot Graham's beliefs for the forefront of american policy? No.
Facts: Does anybody associate Bill Clinton with Billy Graham, No.
Facts: Did Billy Graham have any effect on Bill Clinton at all, No.
Facts: This is an overblown non story filled with lies, exaggeration and divisive irresponsible reporting - at least on this
site - one I usually like.
Facts: You will all now attempt to make your own list of "Facts" in opposition of mine.
Fact- A marriage in Las Vegas is just as valid as one in Saddleback Church, because the law separates religion from the marriage contract.
Fact: Warren says Civil Unions are not a Civil Rights issue. They are exactly that.
I guess everyone is ok with dishonestly as long as it attacks your "enemy".
And you're right. I think I will send an e-mail or something to where ever you can do that sort of thing with Warren.
And for good measure you end with this little bit of Warren-like victimhood, "I guess everyone is ok with dishonestly as long as it attacks your "enemy", seemingly blissfully unaware of your own penchant for attacking those who disagree with you.
It's clear to me why you are so passionate in your defense of Warren. You're cut from the same pious, self-righteous, hypocritical cloth as he. You both attack and then play wounded, innocent victim when people fire back.
I think it's time that you took a moment for interspection before you continue this discussion in the same hypocritical way that you have conducted it thus far.
I DON'T THINK SO
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Here is an example. Christmas Day is a holiday in the United States. Are we saying that a Christian feast is being legalized to the exclusion of say Chanukkah or Ramadan or any other religious ceremonial feast?
No, the "Christmas Day" that is a NATIONAL HOLIDAY is a secular holiday that is recognized and observed by ALL AMERICANS.,,. DO YOU GET IT !! CHRISTIANS DO NOT OWN THE TERM " MARRIAGE". THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA DOES, AND IT IS A CIVIL AND SECULAR TERM. STOP THE SPIRITUAL VIOLENCE. FOR GOD'S SAKE.....HIS " CHRIST -OPHOBIA COMMENT OFFENDS ME...A RECTOR.....
lots of people remember billy graham. the comparison only highlights how starkly different a "pastor" warren is. it's already well understood that warren is not in government making policy directly. your facts are not telling any particular story. if warren believes marriage is a religious term he should be trying to strike it from existing california statutes. that's clearly not his intent, is it? you were almost rational yesterday but you have slipped back into your earlier muddle. can you actually say something coherent?
I agree it should be taken out of the statutes, that's my solution. And yes he should do that. I'm not defending him and his role in Prop 8 or anything he does. And this leads to my motivation, I hate how
A - this non story is blown up
B - this blow up will likely hurt the marriage equality movement
C - lies and exaggerations are being spread
D - civil discourse is evaporating (if they don't act civil, that doesn't mean you shouldn't) - and now i'm sure this, the most unimportant thing listed, will be attacked.
Right now I'm actually laid up with a bad back and can't really get out of bed...so I have a lot of time on my hands. And this blog gets the most comments. And I like debate.
And I don't acutally care of Warren gets a bum wrap...I don't like dishonesty on any side - also I don't like how people hate on Obama for something he shouldn't, which actually was my original "outrage" - but i'm sure i'll get ripped for that right now.
btw, mr. Wright is a buffoon but his views are at least understandable given the unremitting persecution of blacks in this country. is mr. warren understandable? not so much.
And this is debatable of course, but I think having Warren there in the long run will help marriage equality, in the long run that is. I don't have the patience to explain that now as I have to go heal my back and eat, but it's in my blog, two warren posts ago. So I don't think it's a fuckup at all.
-- Brown v. Board of Education
Civil Unions and all state and ferderal benefits that go with them which would require the repeal of DOMA
Repeal of DADT
Enactment of ENDA
The inclusion of sexual preference and gender identity into civil rights legislation and hate crimes legislation.
Gay Adoption rights.
Because, honestly I don't believe your claim that his only opposition is to gay marriage. Warren has made statements in recent days that he doesn't even believe gays should have ANY sexual relations at all. He believes they should remain celibate. He said this even applies if science proves that being gay is biological and not a choice.
then you should also use a "literal" definition of Christo-phobia, that would be a fear of Christ and not a fear of Christians.
Story filled with "LIES", I guess you mean the "LIES" that Warren used in his support of Prop 8 by claiming that lagalizing gay marriage in CA would allow for pastors to be sued for hate speech if they spoke their beliefs, right?
--And for the record I sincerely doubt that Obama "believes" that marriage is a religious term. After twenty years in the UCC I'm sure he knows better than to say what he really believes on the subject if he had any hope of getting elected president. This would be no different than Dean or Gore, who BOTH SAID they opposed gay marriage when running for president but who later came out and said that they really supported marriage equality.
FACT; The church doesn't have the right to "define" CIVIL RIGHTS and institutions any more than the state has the right to regulate RELIGIOUS RITES and traditions.
FACT: We don't let churches write or control our laws for very good reason. Which religion would be in control? Which religion wins out when there is a difference of opinion? Let's just assume that we always go with the Christians (since so many people "believe" that we were founded to be a Christian nation and since "so many people believe" seems to be the threshold for you as to when we should or should not follow something. /Do we go with the Catholics? Protestants? Mormons? Let's just say "Protestant" for sake of argument. Then which DENOMINATION wins out when there is a disagreement? Which branch of which sect of which denomination gets the final say? See where I'm going with this?
Now go ahead and tell me, as you tell everyone else who dares to disagree with you, just how "illogical" and ignorant I am.
Here's the background for those who have not been reading about this particulary angle. Saddleback operates a program called Celebrate Recovery:
http://www.celebraterecovery.com/?page_id=4
Same-Sex Attraction is a "Recovery Area," per the Celebrate Recovery site.
http://celebraterecoveryfbcruss.org/crhistoryv1...
"All of life's hurts, habits, and hang-ups are addressed through this one curriculum. Celebrate Recovery is designed to help with numerous recovery areas, such as Adult Children of Alcoholics, Anger Groups, Chemically Addicted, Codependents, Eating Disorders, Financial Recovery, Love & Relationship Addiction, and Sexual Addiction, Women in Relationship with a Sexually Addicted Man, Food Addiction, Same Sex Attraction, Sexual/Physical/Emotional Abuse and Grupo De Hombres En Espanol. "
A few days ago, one of those fund-raising letters from one of the Obama mailing lists came my way. I replied with a fairly polite but clear letter expressing my concern about Mr. Obama's failure to reject anti-gay hate speech. I've not received so much as one fund-raising letter from the Obama mailing lists since then. I'm off the lists. I bet I'm on some other list now.
What's that grinding sound . . . ? Oh, reich! The gates of Dachau!
Was it ok for Warren to compare abortion rights to millions of people killed by Nazis?
No it wasn't ok for Warren to do that. So are you saying it's ok to stoop to his level of idiocy?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph_175
Rick Warren has compared our love to beatiality and pedophilia
http://blog.beliefnet.com/stevenwaldman/2008/12...
"The issue to me, I'm not opposed to that as much as I'm opposed to redefinition of a 5,000 year definition of marriage. I'm opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I'm opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I'm opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
BELIEFNET: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
Oh , I do. For 5,000 years, marriage has been defined by every single culture and every single religion - this is not a Christian issue. Buddhist, Muslims, Jews - historically, marriage is a man and a woman. And the reason I supported Proposition 8, is really a free speech issue. Because first the court overrode the will of the people, but second there were all kinds of threats that if that did not pass then any pastor could be considered doing hate speech if he shared his views that he didn't think homosexuality was the most natural way for relationships, and that would be hate speech. We should have freedom of speech, ok? And you should be able to have freedom of speech to make your position and I should be able to have freedom of speech to make my position, and can't we do this in a civil way.
Most people know I have many gay friends. I've eaten dinner in gay homes. No church has probably done more for people with AIDS than Saddleback Church. Kay and I have given millions of dollars out of Purpose Driven Life helping people who got AIDS through gay relationships. So they can't accuse me of homophobia. I just don't believe in the redefinition of marriage.
[Clarification/addition from Pastor Warren 12:15: "
How many more gays have to be beaten and/or killed just for being gay before you are willing to compare ALL equality for gays to that of other minorities who already have equality? How many more have to be fired from their jobs or denied advancement in their careers? How many more have to be denied rental housing based on their sexuality? Yes, it happens. I just read a story this morning about real estate agents who would not show a one bedroom apartment to two men.
Public opinion didn't support civil rights legislation when it was enacted. Public opinion didn't support legalzing inter-racial marriage when the Supreme Court decided Loving v Virgina. Why are gays REQUIRED to convince a majority of voters that we deserve to be treated equally before gaining rights even to you, someone who has claimed to support equal rights.
Try a strategic approach, eh?
Really?
Well, et the "demonizing" continue.
He's a creationist, too (scroll until you see "What about dinosaurs?"
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:PXTZQFA_15k...
I am sure David Duke goes to church, pays his taxes and stops at read lights. This does not make him a good person, and it does not allow him to have a place of honor at an inaguration.
Think outside of the box, scratch the surface. This is not rocket science.
Humility
Modesty
Forgiving
Passive
Without worldly possessions (A fox has a hole, Christ didn't have a rock to lay his head on)
Generous
Without hate or malice
Loving
Joyful
Apolitical (give unto Ceasar)
Sound familiar? No...but this does:
Modern American Characteristics of Christianity:
Political
Grand/royal/regal ($20 million mega churches)
Propaganda
Profitible
Hateful
Pious
Self Righteous
Self Serving
Self Indulging
Shiny
Rich (preaches now make more than most of us)
Calculating (even with children dying of AIDS in Africa)
Afluent
Suspect
Paranoid
Judgemental (haha...the Good Samartian would be ticketed these days)
w/ Politicians...... r/ pray for us.
w/ Propagandists...... r/ pray for us.
w/ Profitseekers...... r/ pray for us.
w/ Hateful...... r/ pray for us.
w/ Pious...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Self Righteous...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Self Serving....... r/ pray for us.
v/ Self Indulgent...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Shiny...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Wealthy...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Calculating...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Affluent...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Suspect...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Paranoids...... r/ pray for us.
v/ Judgmental...... r/ pray for us.
v/ All who are grand, royal and regal...... r/ pray for us.
It would be even better in Latin!!
v/ Politicicabis...... r/ ora pro nobis.
et cetera, et cetera ad infinitum.......
Old fat Rick has the Rovian dissembling chaff cloud down to a fair thee well and in plenty 'o time for 2nd Breakfast, Elevenses and Luncheon.
Is it really rude, rather than a good debate technique, to suggest, to a posturing fundie lard butt, that his excessive eating habits might be as sinful as the alleged sin he rails against?
While my own prayers and the miracles I've witnessed in my own life suggest God might disagree with Rick's narrow, historically unsupported positions regarding homosexuality, Rick seems disinclined to provide supporting evidence for his claim of "5,000 years of exclusive heterosexual marriage".
Can't Rick and his PR people just accept their own unnatural love affair with America's corporate media and cafeteria politicians while leaving the rest of us alone?
Under the guise of helping the poor, and sick etc, they FIRST and foremost convert the people prior to or along with care, and food. Rick Warren pays himself first. Make no mistake, he is running a business, a very big business. The man is the CEO, and Obama has facillitated thrusting Warren even further to legitimate status.
I am still horrified and disgusted w/ both Warren and Obama at this point. Keep it coming John. I personally will not let this one go until we get some answers. I am like a dog with a chew toy.
We are in the right on this one. This guy is a text book sociopath. Psychology 101. And Ethridge and Obama have been duped.
PS: Isn't Gluttony an abomination?
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/showDiary.do?diar...
I would love to see the rights reaction if Obama has a muslim prayer read. He'd never get elected again, but it might be worth it just for the reaction.
There again he stroked Melissa Ethridges ego in his first few sentences and she fell for his con job like the easiest of marks.
I said this in a number of comments here and on other blogs yesterday and was roundly attacked.
My point was, if he had said all the things that Melissa Ethridge said he said then whey did he only say them in a PRIVATE conversation with her rather than mentioning them, even once, in any of the numerous interviews and press releases he has done on the subject over the last few days?
I think Melissa got totally punked but I don't think her ego will ever allow her to admit it.
Is that concept really so difficult for this wretched man to understand? Is it really that difficult for Obama and the members of his administration to understand that Warren doesn't exhibit polite, humane, or tolerant behavior and that he's really not a model for creating dialogue about faith in the public sphere?
Eghads, what a can of disgusting worms Obama's opened on this one.
Not all Christains or religious people are like this certainly. But Warren is running a business and a cult. When you delve into how they opperate it is easy to draw this conclusion.
http://thesebastards.blogspot.com/
Personally speaking, I'm not Christ-phobic at all. But I *am* phobic of
-> empire-building pastors
-> ignorant people
-> hypocrites.
I'm afraid Warren is 3 for 3 there.
*************
Whatever, Pastor Lardass.
I'm not AFRAID of so-called "christians".
I just steer clear of them, like the crazy man at the bus stop who's slapping himself and trying to bite his own ear off.
It's not surprising that, in his world view, everyone is "afraid" of him and that enemies are out to "get him".
Sad and pathetic. Fundamentalists like Warren give a bad name to devout people who are Christian Jewish, or Islamic and approach their faith and relationship with a higher power with reason, love, understanding, and good overall mental health.
That person didn't live 2,000 years ago as one who for some obscure reason is worshipped today as a deity. That person isn't a figment of the imagination of people over thousands of years of ignorance and confusion about the natural process of humanity and the planet.
That person lives today and is in many countries, of many races and nationalities, people who don't seek fame, fortune or influence because their own sphere is small and most often restricted.
If we look to ourselves, to those we love, and remember that our own humanity is what will save us, that we only need to "do no harm", we'll be all right as a species. If we permit others to control us, through whatever means they employ to do so, we are doomed. To let others plant doubt and guilt about ourselves through religious "rules" and metaphysical meanderings, to stunt our growth as human beings, and to prevent our learning about ourselves and our only home because of appeals to our emotions or fears is an affront to our humanity. To paraphrase, the road to extinction is paved with good intentions disguised simply as ploys to wage aggression against the fullfilment of the life we live on earth. After all, there is no other life except that which we practice here on earth. If we are doing no harm, there should never be any judgment of any kind. Yet everyday we are inflicted with the myth of "perfection" through pie in the sky schemes which obviously don't work--the history of humanity confirms it.
Control disgused in religious form is always judgment, always harm, although it may not be seen that way because people sometimes prefer to wear blinders of ignorance. Time to take those blinders off.
http://glaadblog.org/2008/12/18/past-media-cove...
Fox News: Hannity & Colmes - Warrens Address AIDS
12.20.07 09:00 pm - Pastor Rick and Kay Warren talk about their work with AIDS and Kay says, "I thought it was a gay disease. And for me I thought that meant I didn?t have to care. And I was so wrong."
ABC: Nightline - Kay Warren on AIDS
12.14.07 11:42 pm - Kay Warren, wife of pastor Rick Warren, admits she did not respond to the AIDS crisis immediately because it "was tied with homosexuality," but now says all people with HIV/AIDS should be treated with compassion.
What kind of bubble do these people live in?
They didn't know about Ryan White, Elizabeth Glaser, or millions of Africans, Haitians, European and American IV users and transfusion patients, among other non-gay categories.
Must have been too busy bilking their flock since 1980 to pay attention.
that's laughable.
he's just another Christofascist, making a buck off fear and hatred.
Warren has asserted that I am a second class citizen. I am spiritually inferior, in need of constant (male) supervision and should be submissive.
Eight years of this BS from the present administration and their love of Fundies, and I thought we had all walked into the light.
The more things change; the more they remain the same.
People in the health care and health insurance industries should also be unhappy at the presentation of Rick Warren as some kind of role model.
AND the man believes in creationism. I want to ask him how old he thinks the earth is? I imagine he believes somewhere in the relm of several thousands of years.
You need not go any further than the grand canyon to understand what a big lie creationism is. A seventh grader can understand the simple concept of : If we can measure the speed of light, and we can measure the distance to the nearest star, and we understand how long stars live, then we can draw the conclusion that we are seeing stars that have died out billions of years ago and are only now are we able to see them. This is how far away they are.
creationist are anti science ignorant fools who cannot wrap their minds around much of anything......and this has been given the high honor of the invocation.
FINE, take out the gay issue....and what have we got. Still a bad move by Obama.
Does Obama agree that gay Americans are not Christians?
Does Obama agree that gays have "Christ-ophobia"?"
John, your example is tragic!!!
Have a joyful Christ-Mass!!!
]
well I tried to post a link and/or youtube of rick warren speaking but html doesnt work here.
so copy/paste
http://www.youtube.com/v/ce1ILmS5yMo&hl=en&fs=1
To even mention these issues in the same sentence is creating a connection in peoples minds. It is the art of taking two completely un-related events, and by repetition making them connect. It's called 'truthiness'.
Pedophelia, gay people and incest are mutually exclusive events. Most pedophiles are straight. That does not mean that if you are straight you are a pedophile. So why even speak of it in the same breath? Warren does this specifially to create doubt and draw conclusions.
These issues are no more related than potted plants and circus clowns.
1. There's the polygamy, pedophilia, incest comparison.
2. Then there is the little fact that Rick Warren's church has an explicit policy that bans gays from membership.
3. Also, let's not forget the revelation that his church supports an "ex-gay" program
4. Oh, and in the Ann Curry interview, there was that little matter of Rick Warren saying that gays should not be active homos, even if our sexual orientations are proven to be biological
5. There are also the lies Warren has told about marriage equality targeting pastors' free speech.
6. -And THEN there's gay marriage. And it's not that he's just against giving gays that word it's that he AGGRESSIVELY campaigned for Prop 8 injecting a major religious force into this civil matter.
7. And let’s not forget on December 3, Rick Warren agreed with Sean Hannity’s assertion that “we need to take him [Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad] out,”
8. Then there's that time that Pastor Warren compared abortion to the Jewish Holocaust
9. And that time he told a Jewish woman that she was going to burn in Hell.
10 Let's not forget Rick Warren is a male chauvinist who belives and teaches that women must defer to their husband’s “leadership” even when he's wrong.
11. And who can forget that he doesn’t believe in evolution. "dinosaurs and man lived together on the earth, an earth that was filled with vegetation and beauty."
and BTW - I never said "equate" I said "compare."
Whatever. If you're all happy railing against Aravosis's straw opponents, that's fine. I'm outta here so that I can go oppose some flesh-and-blood bigots and call them out for stuff that they actually say.
This blog has been invaded by Warren's little stooges (and will continue to be, since Maddow publicized it last night).
However, drawing from that the conclusion that I am one of "Warren's little stooges" requires skills in dishonest reporting of data as finely honed as those that Aravosis displays above.
When you have Warren cult members here, then John is doing something.
Living it and loving it!
-- Rick Warren, December 21, 2008
I think my critical thinking skills are pretty good, for what it's worth.
"Two lovers living together is a not a marriage. Incest is not marriage. A domestic partnership or even a civil union is still not marriage."
-- Rick Warren, December 15, 2008 (six days earlier)
Source: http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2008/12/Rick-Warr...
"I’m opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
Q: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
A: Oh , I do."
-- Rick Warren, December 19, 2008
Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122963324195319...
Warren is scarier than Dobbs or Phelps. At least with tthose people, there is no grey area.
this is what Rick Warren's brand of love and caring does for the gay community:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/22/lesbia...
John's assesement is precisely correct. The problem is, we have been so used to being the object of ridicule, we don't see it anymore.....and it's right in front of your eyes.
Watch it again.
"bloggers are "rude" and "need to get a life."
warren says nothing of the sort. these accusations made by john are nowhere in this video.
###
for the sake of arguement, i tried this as well. but since warren never says "gay people" anywhere in the video, it wasn't as effective as i had hoped it would be.
but warren did mention "people"... so maybe if just ignore what he said and replace "people" with "gay people"... then replace "gay people" with "black people" .... UGH! WHAT AN ALMOST OUTRAGE! I CAN'T BELIEVE WHAT HE ALMOST SAID, BUT DIDN'T REALLY!
Adding, I very occasionally follow a link to AmericaBlog, but mostly avoid them when I see them. It's too bad - Chris and others here are quite good, and Aravosis is mostly good, but occasionally prone to fits of excess, like this, or his occasional geographic bigotry. But when I went to pare down my RSS feeds so that I could get some time back those shortcomings made AmericaBlog an easy call.
-- Rick Warren, December 21, 2008
"Two lovers living together is a not a marriage. Incest is not marriage. A domestic partnership or even a civil union is still not marriage."
-- Rick Warren, December 15, 2008 (six days earlier)
Source: http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2008/12/Rick-Warr...
"I’m opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
Q: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
A: Oh , I do."
-- Rick Warren, December 19, 2008
Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122963324195319...
Merry Christmas
and Ricky pointing that out in his sweet video is just returning love and caring to all those hateful, hateful evil horrible gays...amen.
Clearly, this is one of those issues that doesn't affect your life and because of that, the people who are upset are all kooks. If I were gay, I don't think I'd much appreciate being compared to a pedophile as Warren has done. I don't think I'd appreciate many of Warren's characterizations of gay people.
If gay people are hateful towards Christians, it hate only came after Christians decided to do everything in their power to paint them as the lowest form of person on Earth (all the while, they have a wide-spread problem of priests diddling children).
IMO, that hate is well-deserved.
Now shut up.
and if you want bigger issues, why are post here? get on over to Foreign Affairs website....dive in.
troll off please.
you know it's just a matter of time...
Warren's choice is pure politics. We are the group of choice in this era to be sacrificed on the altar of political expediency. I was hopeful after years of being relentlessly attacked by the most phobic admin in history we might have a change. But no, our community is a political football to be exploited and tossed back and forth by both sides. At least the Republicans are authentic in their discrimination against us.
Melissa Etheridge is a tool and a disgrace. Warren likes her music and said nice things to her so that means he is a wonderful guy and the gay community should make him our best friend. Egotistical idiot.She needs to get a clue or just stick with music and leave the struggle to people who are not fools that fall for con jobs.
Would Jesus have told the woman being stoned to death to "listen respectfully" to the views of those who based their condemnation of her on thousands of years of "the way it's always been" law?
God weeps for the politically and criminally oppressed, and I presume that he would ask more of us than to "listen respectfully" to the sinful justifications of oppressors.
As a life-long Presbyterian queer who will begin a Masters in Christian Education in the Spring, I understand all too well the views of my oppressor.
Rick Warren and his kind are WRONG about gays -- but that doesn't matter one bit. Because the bigger issue is that they hold power, and gays are still subordinate to that majority power.
Before anyone can "listen respectfully" -- before the eyes and ears of people like Rick Warren can truly be opened -- the balance of political and social power must be equalized.
Calling for mutual respect now -- during a time of ACTIVE oppression and crimes against LGBT people -- only panders to and serves the needs of those with power.
When Rick Warren sees me as his spiritual and moral -- and my love for my wife as worthy of respect as his own for his -- I'll be happy to "listen respectfully" to him. In the meantime, I'll keep working on elevating my power in the differential.
Jen Russell
Washington DC
Amen and Amen!
My vote for best comment of the day!
It's like the homophobes saying they are not homophobes when you know they are.
The big clue: when they say "homosexual lifestyle". Yeah right, whatever. They only confirm that they are doing the persecuting even more.
I don't think of them as Christians at all. More like "religious" fanatics.
One difference is that not only did Warren attack gay Californians through the ballot box, he verbally attacked all LGBT people very recently with the incest and pedophile comparisons. The mormon church is a bit more careful with their tone now that the election is over.
Stating what he will continue to do, giving lie to Obama's philosophy of inclusion to reach consensus:
"We have no intention of changing."
And (chillingly, now that he is to be included in Obama policy discussions), perhaps telling his true intent and suggesting he does not grasp the concept of secular government, he will continue to "equip servant leaders."
The only comfort I take from Warren's words is his pissed off tone. We're getting to him.
Pour it on.
Obama: NO!
What is most distressing is that I now question Obama's.
there's some hard core emotional eating going on - i wonder what problem he is trying so hard to eat his way out of?
http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/blogs/newsandvi...
Both of them want to throw me -- a recreational cannabis user -- in prison.
To those saying, "Warren isn't being given a position in the Adminstration!" I say: BUT ERIC 'Mandatory Minimums' HOLDER HAS BEEN GIVEN A VERY POWERFUL ONE!
Will you help me to liberate the non-violent cannabis users of America?
Will you help me fight the bigoted ignorance of Obama, Warren & Holder?
Thank you.
Merry Christmas, you are a still a fat cow and hateful little man. Christian? I don't think so!
Not only are some of those statements absolutlely untrue, they are UNBELIEVABLY ARROGANT, self-agrandizing and pompous. There is NO humility in his words. Their is NO meekness in his words.
This man REALLY needs to read the Sermon on the Mount and the Beatitudes.
He also failed to elaborate on the "education" that the brags about having fostered, will continue to foster, and "WILL NOT CHANGE" which includes their sexual reorientation "education" ministry.
Warren scuffle is like being asked to make nice with one's abuser. The answer is still "No" -- but that's not anti-Xian.
"Rick Warren Syndrome" - Getting all of one's information from a highly-debatable source, but never from the population actually affected. Saying anything that comes into their heads, but never taking responsibility for what it does to others. Also known as "cursing."
"We'll pray about it." = Accountability is for heathens.
"Give it to God" = We're not responsible.
"You're evil" = Intellectual honesty is for 'secularists.'
You cannot say you support us and deny us rights. Support isn't a question of degree. It isn't conditional. Unless you're my parents.
Sorry, but I'm not settling.
Obama wants to repeal DADT. Great. Now I can die for the country that doesn't support me.
Really never have been. Sure, I was raised in the Catholic Church and confirmed but I certainly do not identify as such.
And I certainly don't fear or dislike Christ, I just have a believability issue.
I'm a more reasonable kind of guy. I like proof.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/photo.php?pid...
Does Obama agree that gay Americans are not Christians?
Does Obama agree that gays have "Christ-ophobia"? )))
No.
This has been another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
THANK YOU!
[/Applause]
Any more dumb questions to try to drag obama down based on whatever Warren thinks?
:Let's see....
Does Obama like pleated khaki's?
And all the instant knee-jerk type devoted to attacking the Christian religion whenever it is brought up (either here or in any progressive blog) sure as shit doesn't sound like "Christophobia" to me. Sure it's a silly moniker, but as someone who has long advocated reaching out to Christians (90+% of the population don'tcha know) instead of alienating them, I sure as shit get weary of reading the same usual attacks on faith in general whenever it comes up.
It may look like victory but really if there is any victory happening here, it's only a Pyrrhic one. You're alienating moderates, you're alienating Christians, you're alienating Obama supporters. And not because of any policy positions or legislation passed by obama. It's because he invites someone to speak for 10 minutes at some even that will be soon forgotten by everyone (well most everyone at least I still don't know about John).
And it's amazing that you continue to try to drag Obama down because of Warren's beliefs or conduct. Get over yourselves already. It's starting to look like if Warren is just an excuse, just gauging the venom hurled incessantly at ANYTHING obama does now.
TODAY IS FESTIVUS!
Hope yours is as big of an occasion as our will be.
A toast to you all on this most magical day of the year, FESTIVUS!
By way of introduction, I'm a gay man, living in California, and probably as hurt and angry over Prop. 8 as you are. By inviting Warren to deliver the benediction at his inauguration, I don't think that Obama was consciously Sistah Souljah-ing us, but I do think that he failed to appreciate how that invitation would feel to those who believe in full equality, and especially now. I also think that Obama isn't the only one who's being a little tone deaf here, and the person I'd propose adding to that list is you.
I ask you to consider who Obama is and his personal history, and then tell me, if you can, that he hasn't had to make nice to racists any number of times by now, and overcome sometimes intense personal discomfort to do that. I would suppose that, to him, that kind of experience comes with the territory for minority group members in public life, and it wouldn't surprise me if his having had to overcome his own strong feelings to reach out to some pretty repellent types, himself, would have made him less sensitive to the feelings of those of us who are hurt and insulted by the Warren invitation.
Obama has unequivocally reaffirmed his personal commitment to full equality for gays and lesbians, such as it was (i.e., without the right to marry) before the Warren invitation was issued, and I'd say that if that was good enough for a man in his position before, then let's decide that it's good enough now, and stop the bitter recrimination, which isn't going to do any of us any good. The lesson here is that we've got to keep our eye on Obama, as we would anyone in his office, maintain effective forms of pressure on him to do the right thing. Anything further we have to say about Warren, or any issue that may arise down the road, should serve that strategy. Insulting Obama -- and accusing him of pulling a Sistah Souljah is insulting -- isn't the way to do that.
I must've missed that press conference.
So what?
Warren abused Barak Obama twice in the election cycle. First, there was the disingenuous business in his "discussions" with the presidential candidates, and then there was the misrepresentation of the candidate's position on Proposition 8. Some ancient references are translated to indicate that this is false witness. More recent references suggest that it should be understood as being like an unwelcome sexual interaction. I doubt that Senator Obama felt all that positive about it. I do not doubt that the experiences gave him a pretty good opportunity to measure Warren's weaknesses.
The President Elect would seem to have given Rick Warren a make or break opportunity. Had he done the "make" aide of the opportunity, Warren would have gone for the low profile, done an innoffensive invocation, and been installed as the defacto Pope of the Religious Right, with the appearance of White House access and his reputation more or less intact. That did not happen, so lets look at the "break" side. The "break" arm is potentially of some importance: Warren is indeed the heir apparent as Dobson and Robertson shuffle off to join Kennedy and Falwell in whatever afterlife you care to imagine. By demonstrating that he lacks the finesse that previous Evangelical leaders used to snuggle up to Presidents while preaching looniness, Warren knocks himself down, hard. Precisely because so many Evangelical/Fundamentalist Americans are authoritarians whose worship of God gets seriously conflated with a hardly covert worship of Country and the correct performance of certain public rituals, making even a Black and Democratic President look bad as the Inauguration approaches tends to undercut one's authority. The Inauguration is the President's show. That an invited participant would choose to buy into the attention being focused on himself instead of deferring to the President Elect is bad form. Appropriately framed criticism, delivered after the honeymoon, is expected, but hissy fits at this stage are a problematical distraction that tend to indicate that the guy does not understand the situation he finds himself in and thus will not be able to deliver the desired clout. As someone else has suggested this tends to suggest that he is "not ready for prime time."
Are the slights to Candidate Obama avenged? Is that really the question? Is the Religious Right leadership stuck with even more confusion and political weakness than the Bush Administration brought it to? That is a much more interesting question. My Magic 8 Ball says, "Yes."
How then does this impact the new Administration and the hopes and interests that GLBT & Friends bring to the national political process? While it does suggest that John and his friends should have tea with Miss Manners every Monday for the next six months, the more important consideration is that the political reactor which powers the Religious Right is falling below critical mass and running low on money. Warren has blown his opportunity here in a big way, and Obama hardly had to lift a finger. Perhaps we will not see Congresses as effective as say 1861 or 1933 but it is a good bet that we will come close. So, get the facts out, play by the rules. win big, but call it a Restoration.
I would personally prefer that Rick Warren had set himself down with Katherine Schori Jeffords, Jeremiah Wright, and Gene Robertson and had himself a bit of an epiphany, sometime early in January, but that does seem increasingly unlikely.
Perhaps I do read overmuch into what I see. Over the last week, I read David McCullough's John Adams biography so I am particularly conscious of the kind of scheming even the good guys do in Presidential politics. Sandburg and Vidal suggest that Lincoln did a bit of this sort of political judo as well.
Obama did not have the power to elevate Warren from moderate somethingness to preeminence. It was not hard to see that
Warren's campaign for the papal recliner was well under way. What Obama was offering him was a way to seal the deal, or break it. Whine is the wrong response, especially for aspiring hierarchs. I am suggesting that Obama's analysis was that various forms of failure were far more likely outcomes and that success was an outcome that would also enhance his position. All that is not to suggest that I think Obama wanted Warren to fail. I did not either. Unfortunately for Rick Warren, my version of success is where RW goes on an extended tour with Religious Righters Anonymous making restitution to all the folks he has injured over the years (and sorts out the issues that drive his weight gain).
If my guesses hold up, however, our role is still problematical in that we get to be the cat's paw that does the messy work of helping Warren to eviscerate himself in public. While this beats being thrown under the bus, it leaves us with a lot of washing up to do before we go to the soiree with polite society. That is why I was suggesting a bit of a graduate seminar with Judith Martin (if she is still available).
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/...
countdown to toe-tapping in a men's restroom 5...............4.............3........2...............
Hang in there, and it will happen. It may take some time, but it will occur.
We are ALL God's children, despite what the right-wing religious BIGOTS say.
.
Can't Rick and his Pals play nice in the sandbox?
No?
Then, they need their 501c3 RELIGIOUS NONPROFIT status pulled and put into a corner for a bit to contemplate that ample navel.
If you take the definition of the suffix to be extreme and irrational fear. And christo to be Christians.
Given that past few centuries of western history; is any fear of Christians irrational? If you are an Atheist, Jew, Muslim or gay; I would have to say fear of Christians is rational and possibly health.
Examples
Fear that gays will destroy your heterosexual marriage - irrational.
Fear that Christians will destroy your gay marriage- quite rational.