Funny how in these times "socialism" is suddenly not such a dirty word, isn't it?
ProgressiveTroll
· 1 year ago
Never has been with me, I was born a Socialist and been damn proud of it my whole 42 years.
MNUSA
· 1 year ago
I think Congress should give the Big 3 a bridge loan with strings attached until Obama's team can come up with a plan. The union members don't make too much and they've given a lot up. Obviously management doesn't want to give up their over sized salaries, exorbitant perks or excess benefits. But we can't let them fail.
vkobaya
· 1 year ago
My plan is that we rescue the auto industry but break them up into smaller companies so that we eliminate the "too big to fail" syndrome. More competition will be good for us. Also need to reform healthcare with universal healthcare which not only will benefit the auto industry but almost all the corporations. They are too stupidly doctrinaire to realize how foolish their opposition to one payer, universal healthcare is. Realy demonstrates how stupid corporate executives are. They think it is a slippery slope and if they allow that, soon we will be a Communist nation. Too stupid to comprehend that socialism and Communism are destinct. Also too stupid to see that every other nation in the world functions well with one-payer, universal healthcare without becoming Communist. Frankly, even Russia will admit that Communism was better than rampant, unrestrained capitalism which essentially uses workers as grist for their mills.
ProgressiveTroll
· 1 year ago
i only have an associate's degree but I know I could run any company better than those three clowns.
Steve
· 1 year ago
Lets face it, when an employer has too much power he abuses it to the detriment of the employees. Same too with a union such as the Auto Workers. In this case the employees will need to give up unreasonable benefits if they hope to maintain the industry that provides them jobs. I do not support a bailout without reasonable gives on both sides.
sukabi1
· 1 year ago
ummm, the employees have been giving up benefits over the last decade or so.... it's the executive management teams that have been rewarded excessively for sinking their companies.
Verchiel
· 1 year ago
Well, it's going to have to get worse, asking for this big of a hand out.
UAW head Gettelfinger getting up there and saying "we're here because of the economy, not because of anything the auto industry did" is patently offensive.
Statements like that are ready-made material for the union bashers.
The economy is in serious trouble, but so were those companies, due to the combined actions of management and labor.
ProgressiveTroll
· 1 year ago
At my husband's plant they call Gettelfinger, Middlefinger, he is totally bought and paid for by the Big 3. He sat there like a total clueless idiot thru those hearings. He's #1 one at giving us at the UAW a bad name and he isn't the only one. If they make management clean house, they need to clear out the union too. I think it should be mandatory for both sides and I liked the idea up above of the workers owing the whole thing, that's been my idea for years. This whole situation has been a long time coming. We've really tried at my husband's Chrysler plant to re-do the union and have stood up to management time and again, which is one of the main reasons they closed the plant just few weeks ago I'm sure.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
I'll bet "Middlefinger" makes a pretty good "executive" salary as well. A good union would not allow that. I remember when union execs in the IBEW only made slightly more than union members and that was only because they had to take more shit from mgmt. Ah, the good old days of unionism!
sukabi1
· 1 year ago
This isn't a problem with these companies that has suddenly happened... a couple of years ago Fords' stock was down rated to "Junk" status as was GM's they got a bunch of taxpayer money at that time to help stabilize them and they proceeded to take the money and do exactly the same thing they've always done... make bigger cars & trucks ... and this was at a time when gas prices were going up and honda & toyota were starting to put out their hybrids...
Moore's right, the management of those companies needs to be replaced and the company managed from a perspective of what's right for the country... that's the only way that there is going to be any meaningful innovation / change in that industry.
It should also be noted that ALL 3 of those companies are quite capable of producing fuel efficient smaller cars -- they can be found all over Europe and other countries -- the management team CHOSE to not produce them for the US.
ProgressiveTroll
· 1 year ago
The unions have given up a lot, last year in their new contract. So I guess it's ok with you that my family's salary gets cut in half and we lose our house and vehicle and our kids no longer have health insurance and we give up the pension that my husband gave his body for? My husband is now disabled from injuries he received on the line. When you give your body and health and your house and retirement and your wages are cut in half, then we'll talk, a-hole.
Dave of the Jungle
· 1 year ago
My Toyota has 177,000 miles on it and still runs great. I expect to get 250,000. Any Chevy owners out there with comparable expectations?
ProgressiveTroll
· 1 year ago
My 2001 Dodge that my husband helped build has 193,000 miles on it. My dad had a 1977 Chevy Impala that had over 200,000 when he sold it about six years ago.
Dave of the Jungle
· 1 year ago
Who would have thunk?
ProgressiveTroll
· 1 year ago
No one that listens to the corporate media that is for sure.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
Well, I have a GM Saturn (made in TN, I'm sure) that has 217,000+ on it. Having a hard time getting it inspected this year, though...5 sp 4 banger that still runs ok, though using some oil.
Dave of the Jungle
· 1 year ago
OK.
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
my old chev 'berretta' model from the 90's got 325 or so, before some pistons lost compression and it had to be junked. I think the 'reliability' issue is not the whole picture. not so much these days, imo.
Dave of the Jungle
· 1 year ago
Well, there you go.
lilybart
· 1 year ago
WE drive a 1994 eclass Mercedes, doesn't even have drink cups, but it is safe and runs GREAT.
ProgressiveTroll
· 1 year ago
Yeah, I've been saying for years now, when everyone is making poverty level wages, no one's going to be buying anything. New hire auto workers make $14 per hour, they can't afford to buy what they are making, if they live very far away, they can barely afford to drive their clunker to get to the plant. And most of those new hires don't even make back after their lunch break either. Some don't even come back after the first break.
Zorba
· 1 year ago
Ironically, it was Henry Ford himself who earned the anger of other company owners and Wall Street by doubling his workers' wages and reducing their work week in 1914. He figured that it would lead to better retention of employees and save on training costs (it did) and attract more highly qualified mechanics and engineers (it did that, too). He also wanted to make sure that workers could afford to buy the products they made, and figured that a decent wage (for that time) would be good for the economy as a whole, not just Ford. Ford wasn't a saint- he was very much opposed to unions, and he was quite paternalistic. But he had the right idea on wages.
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
open interest on gm stock is 1.7 billion - can the us buy controlling interest for, like 11 billion? if so, buy it, and lend it to the workers, let them run it. also loan them some $, and pass new cafe standards - that should do it. eventually break them up - nobody needs 'too big to fail'. Or have the gov't just own it - I could possibly go for that.
barts
· 1 year ago
And the big 3 CEO's flew in on their (tax-payer paid) Learjets like Kings on White horses asking for bailout. Capitalism, my ASS.
lilybart
· 1 year ago
God forbid those uppity workers get a living wage and good benefits. Who do they think they are? Management, they guys who make the bad decisions and push the paper, THEY should get all the real money.
that is the GOP mindset the only reason they oppose the bailout is the Union
Verchiel
· 1 year ago
It *is* funny how corporate trickle down is the answer...UNTIL it trickles down to unionized employees.
(Well, unless it's a possible club to use against a Democrat, a la the GOoPers sudden concern for the coal miners union in the waning days of the election campaign).
lilybart
· 1 year ago
Detroit used to complain that health benefits was killing their ability to be competitive. So why didn't they lead the charge to get universal healthcare? Because they might see an increase in their taxes???
So they crash an entire industry instead.
ProgressiveTroll
· 1 year ago
The last two contracts with Chrysler, the UAW had a provision that Chrysler pay millions to push for universal health care, but they never did it and the union never made them do it.
lilybart
· 1 year ago
No one's hands are clean! The union liked their health benefits from the auto maker, so why make them push it? ugh
Ed Drone
· 1 year ago
They say Chapter 11 is not an option because no one will invest in them while they 'get it together.' So make the bridge loans contingent on going, if you will, 'special' chapter 11, with the US government as the creditor-in-possession or whatever it's called. Then the companies get it together -- for real -- or get taken over by the government. Someone else here has suggested buying the company (GM, I think), but that's harder to do, since there's little in the makeup of the govt. to actually own such an enterprise (and the Rethuglicans would yell 'Socialism' even louder. Yeah, I know, they're going to do it anyway, but if we really buy the company, it makes it look more like REAL socialism, so best to do it through the creditor route.
Of course, this is not going to be put together in a few days and passed by THIS congress, you can count on that. But the Dems should put together a logical program such as this and make the GOP vote against it, if only to leave a marker for the voters in the auto-making states.
The GOP is trying to use the crisis to totally bust unionism, and make the whole country a 'right to work state' -- soon only Walmart will be the employer of choice. Just watch. Actually, don't 'just watch.' Fight!
Ed
ProgressiveTroll
· 1 year ago
Thanks Ed. I'm so glad there are so many people here on A-blog that understand and aren't trashing the unions like they are so many other "progressive" blogs. The media and the Rethugs sure have done a good job with their union busting meme.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
I had a 77 Opel Kadett that got better gas mileage than most American cars made now, even the 4 bangers. But I want a car that's either electric or gets 70 mpg on gas. Even the Japanese started making larger vehicles in the late 80s, didn't anyone notice? Even the Yaris is only guaranteed to get 35 mpg (hwy/city) or something like that, and it's supposed to be Toyota's most gas efficient vehicle. Do Americans really need all that extra stuff, like a plug in for an MP3 player, TVs and such?
All those extras to keep you busy doing everything but really driving...all those wrecks...all that money...all that waste.
unrepentant_expat
· 1 year ago
"I don't always agree with him but think that he makes some valid points. " Other than wardrobe choice, what is there not to agree with?
sukabi1
· 1 year ago
LOL.... but I agree.
brian
· 1 year ago
My FIAT Panda gets the equiv of 55 mpg. Of course, hitting a big SUV would be deadly for me.
I agree, the US auto makers could care less about what people wanted and they became greedy.
I also agree about Moore's statement about capitalism. Good riddance to the over the top capitalism we have seen in the last 20+ years. We need a balance and balls to the wall capitalism wrecked the country.
vkobaya
· 1 year ago
The American auto industry claims Toyota has lost money on the Prius ever since Toyata introduced it. Yeah, right! American auto industry would tell us the truth about something like that. Toyota has been unable to produce enough to meet demand. Dealers are selling them for massive markups. I'm sure Toyota is loosing their shirt on the Prius. Yeah, right!
ChrisM70
· 1 year ago
Believe it or not, I like the idea that Aston Kutcher had on Bill Maher's show the other night:
Have the oil companies bail out Detroit.
They are the ones that need the cars so bad, and the car companies have done everything they can to kiss up to Big Oil, so let Exxon, BP and the others dish out a little cash to help their partners in crime.
Skye
· 1 year ago
Now I like that idea. Exxon has more than enough money to do that .
ProgressiveTroll
· 1 year ago
I think a big part of the Rethugs being against the auto bailout along with finally busting the unions is they want to make things as bad as possible for Obama, Druggie Limpballs is already calling it the "Obama Recession". They know if Obama turns this massive travesty around they will be out of power for decades, if they do nothing and let everything collapse to the point where there is nothing Obama and the Dems can do to fix it, they can blame him and us for years. The battle is just getting started, getting Obama and the Dems elected was the easy part.
lilybart
· 1 year ago
Calling it the Obama recession is absolutely comical, it is such a bald-faced lie. It might even be a big enough lie for Palin to repeat.
eclecticbrotha
· 1 year ago
Chris, you hit it out of the park on this one.
The people who love to cite Toyota as the model to aspire to need to read this.
I just got an email saying a deal has been reached in the Senate but they still aren't sure if they have the votes. Don't know much of the details yet.
cowboyneok
· 1 year ago
Day of Remembrance for our Transgender Brothers/Sisters!
Would someone who knows what they are talking about please speak up? The entire notion of "millions" of jobs being lost is complete garbage. Bankruptcy would simply mean a reorganization of the business structure (and oh yeah, the inability to pay huge bonuses). Detroit NEEDS to restructure, that IS the problem. Throwing money at the problem will not help. GM WILL NOT file Chapter 7, that is a fact. They will file Chapter 11 and life will go on as normal. Has not anyone ever heard of Delta, Northwest, US Air, Delphi, Dana - the list goes on and on. This entire argument is a sham, plain and simple. Every person that gets up and repeats this claim instantly loses all credibility because I know they know better. When I hear Barney Frank or Rick Wagoner talk about Chapter 7 liquidation I am shell shocked. They KNOW that will NEVER happen. Question is then: why are they lying to us? Answer: fear tactics work. They work the same whether it is regarding terrorism or corporate or union welfare. In the end, the regular guy gets screwed.
rextrek1
· 1 year ago
Well ALL I know is my 72yr old Brother-n-law who used to be an mid-level exec. for GM..his Heatlh Ins. ends in Feb. and he's had 3 heart-attacks,and suffers from Macular Degeneration (going blind)...my sister who is 53 (his wife) wrks for a comapnys that makes ALOT of Car parts...she's been there 20yrs..and may wind up being laid off..? So - what are people liek this going to do>?
Ferdiad
· 1 year ago
well in that case, give Detroit $50 billion. You see, that is a very unethical argument. It doesn't address the issue at all, but rather attempts to personalize so as to guilt someone into taking a position. One of my neighbors recently had a stroke and is self employed as a contractor, where is his bailout?
voicewithin
· 1 year ago
Wagoner, Ford and LaSorda brainless bunglers if someone comes to a dealership to purchase a vehicle they have to have a plan to pay for it! You arrogant swindlers! What makes you better than the American public you are supposed to serve? Where is your plan? You incompetent blunders! EACH OF YOU SHOULD BE FIRED! None of you are worth your salt...
American dollars to build American cars with American workers.
Nancy Kotting
· 1 year ago
Only those who have lived Detroit can give accurate analysis on this bail out. Even the current CEO's do not have the historical context at this point in time...I blogged this: How the Kings of Built in Obsolescence became Obsolete read this and understand HOW we have come to this...
All Comments
UAW head Gettelfinger getting up there and saying "we're here because of the economy, not because of anything the auto industry did" is patently offensive.
Statements like that are ready-made material for the union bashers.
The economy is in serious trouble, but so were those companies, due to the combined actions of management and labor.
Moore's right, the management of those companies needs to be replaced and the company managed from a perspective of what's right for the country... that's the only way that there is going to be any meaningful innovation / change in that industry.
It should also be noted that ALL 3 of those companies are quite capable of producing fuel efficient smaller cars -- they can be found all over Europe and other countries -- the management team CHOSE to not produce them for the US.
that is the GOP mindset
the only reason they oppose the bailout is the Union
(Well, unless it's a possible club to use against a Democrat, a la the GOoPers sudden concern for the coal miners union in the waning days of the election campaign).
So they crash an entire industry instead.
Of course, this is not going to be put together in a few days and passed by THIS congress, you can count on that. But the Dems should put together a logical program such as this and make the GOP vote against it, if only to leave a marker for the voters in the auto-making states.
The GOP is trying to use the crisis to totally bust unionism, and make the whole country a 'right to work state' -- soon only Walmart will be the employer of choice. Just watch. Actually, don't 'just watch.' Fight!
Ed
All those extras to keep you busy doing everything but really driving...all those wrecks...all that money...all that waste.
Other than wardrobe choice, what is there not to agree with?
I agree, the US auto makers could care less about what people wanted and they became greedy.
I also agree about Moore's statement about capitalism. Good riddance to the over the top capitalism we have seen in the last 20+ years. We need a balance and balls to the wall capitalism wrecked the country.
Have the oil companies bail out Detroit.
They are the ones that need the cars so bad, and the car companies have done everything they can to kiss up to Big Oil, so let Exxon, BP and the others dish out a little cash to help their partners in crime.
The people who love to cite Toyota as the model to aspire to need to read this.
"The Toyota you DON'T Know"
http://www.nlcnet.org/article.php?id=562
http://www.hrc.org/transgender
http://www.ibelievethis.us
Tell GM, Ford and Chrysler that they must sell off their foreign operations to qualify for a loan of American dollars:
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10448831/1/solar...
American dollars to build American cars with American workers.
How the Kings of Built in Obsolescence became Obsolete
read this and understand HOW we have come to this...