AMERICAblog: Mormons started planning for Prop 8 eleven years ago
Butch1
· 1 year ago
It is my wish that they lose their tax exempt status. They have meddled enough in politics. How novel would it be for religions to actually preach love, peace, treat your fellow man with kindness, and to stop forcing their will on others through laws. Religion has gotten totally out of hand in this country and needs to be pushed back to where it belongs. I want nothing to do with organized religion and I shouldn't be forced to have to follow their edicts. This is not a Theocracy and I shouldn't be forced to have to follow their silly, hateful laws.
Nick_the_Dog
· 1 year ago
What Butch said!
CalifHelix
· 1 year ago
A friend from Fresno, CA mentioned that many IRS employees are mormons. The Fresno office opened after the Salt Lake office had to expand. A noticeable amount of mormons moved to Fresno to go to work for the IRS.
gwyneth
· 1 year ago
I'm not worried in the long term. I am a bit of history buff and one thing I've learned in my studies is that our government doesn't power share very well. Or money share for that matter! I don't know I wouldn't put it past Uncle Sam to take a big wet bite out of religions at some point in time. America needs money right now. I'm just sorry that people's rights got removed in the process. :( I'm almost positive that the Church's left unchecked will eventually run into problems with our government.
I don't think friends at the IRS are going to be able to help them if the US decides they want it. I know the message has been heard. We can also hope that even if they don't do anything this time, that they'll start looking into it and being aware of loopholes and possibly close those up for future use!
UncleGlenny
· 1 year ago
I would also like them to lose their tax status; while I consider that difficult and unlikely, they should be reminded that it wasn't all that long ago that they might have been considered, in today's terms, a dangerous, brainwashing cult, but they did survive, minus the polygamy (splilnter groups excepted). Because of the tight hierarchical nature of the church, the requests for volunteers and money were done under the direction of the church.
One part of this I find offensive is how much money had to have come from out of state.
And a couple whiny of whiny commenters made arguments in an earlier post that boiled down to "nyah, nyah, we voted, if you don't like it you can leave."
I wonder they would feel if the situation were reversed; I'm not going to try to hypothesize anything specific, given my relative lack of knowledge of the history of LDS in this country (including persecution).
UncleGlenny
· 1 year ago
By the way, there's I guess what could be considered a branch office of the religious right (AFA funded, at least in part, I believe) ihere n Massachusetts called Mass Resistance. Anti-gay-marriage, fought efforts to reduce bullying and discrimination in schools, the usual.
I noticed just last week that the Southern Poverty Law Center lists them as a hate group.
You know what they would have been saying about the fires if prop8 had failed.
cosanostradamus
· 1 year ago
. I say it's Gawd's will that Utah has no water. If you really want to hurt them, get the surrounding States to cut them off, or drain them dry. .
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
Just got up this am and CNN is showing a retrospective on Jonestown. How timely. If they can't retain you, they kill you...
Isn't that a lesson for our time? Except the fundies and other cults have adherents that Jim Jones would have positively envied.
Fireblazes(CheetohsandCatfood)
· 1 year ago
Sure we can blame them, but lets not give the Catholics a pass. I am not sure who is more self-righteous.
vkobaya
· 1 year ago
Personally biased, but I still will say that I think the Mormons are staging the attacks on themselves. Everywhere I've read, the gays are being exhorted to practice Ghandi and Martin Luther King's practice of non-violence, but we know the morality of these extremists. And, the anthrax attacks after 9/11 are now certain to have come from the Bush administration given the very phony charges brought against one of the anthrax scientists. My guess is with that example, it was nothing for the Mormons to send envelopes with white powder in them to themselves. Oh yes, they lie and commit other evil for God who is the ultimate good. Between you and me, I think God will surprise them when their turn comes for judgment.
gwyneth
· 1 year ago
It's the oldest trick in the book for a political strategy. There are documented incidents of armies throwing a grenade or some such thing in their own camps so that the UN will then return fire on their enemies. I'm sure it could work in the media as well. These people are pretty slippery but we can only speculate where these attacks orginated.
fl79tr
· 1 year ago
wouldn't it be nice if religion passed away in America.... Imagine. Really though, why is America such a hill billy wonderland of superstitious religious nonsense??
boloboffin
· 1 year ago
A little shoutout for Wanda Sykes who got up and said out loud in front of a camera on purpose that she's proud to be gay.
Maggie Knowles
· 1 year ago
I live in the San Fernando Valley area in California. When I saw the Yes on 8 ads on television about teaching homosexuality in schools, I knew this wouldn't fly with lots of heteros and I wondered what the response would be from the No on 8 folks. There wasn't any as far as I could see and I figured there was a chance it would pass (come to think of it, I do remember seeing an ad that said gay marriage wouldn't be taught in schools, but I don't think it was effective). During the last days of the Obama campaign, I was delivering door hangers for the Democrats and I saw many Yes on 8 signs and no signs for No on 8 in middle class single family home neighborhoods.
When Obama was campaigning, he knew he had to have a team in place that could respond immediately to anything the Republicans threw at him and he did.
That's what was missing from the No on 8 folks, a team of people to anticipate the arguments and have a ready and hopefully effective response that would help diminish the fears planted by their opponents.
FatRat
· 1 year ago
Wow! I used to think that the Mormons were just a simple polygamy cult; that just weren't exactly fond of black people. (In 1978 God forgave the blacks, for the Mark of Cain.)
It's interesting to know that the LDS has '5 years plans' like the USSR used to have. This is not just intolerance with long term planning, this is "master plan" to diffuse the blame. (unless the document is a forgery.)
---"But President Hinckley apparently urged caution as the memo makes clear, "he (President Hinckley) also said the (LDS) Church should be in a coalition and not out front by itself." ---
If the Mormon cult was to be a group of hate mongers, is one thing; but to actively try to subvert the civil rights of another, is something else altogether. They need to have their tax exempt status revoked. The KKK doesn't have tax exempt status, why should the LDS?
Demo_Dave
· 1 year ago
You don't think the Mormon religion is ridiculous....If a gay Mormon leaves the Church and goes to Connecticut and gets married to a man he is disowned by the Church and his family. BUT...when his husband dies the Mormons gets hold of his death records and postmortem baptizes the dead husband and makes him a Mormon...but he couldn't be one when he was alive. And we could have elected one of these whack jobs with his magic underwear to be President.
mirth
· 1 year ago
What I find amazing about this info is not the fact of it, but that it has become known. In this extremely secretive religion, something that does not paint the General Authority and/or the Quorum of the Twelve in a heavenly light does not get leaked and they are too precise to handle their private communications sloppily.
Mole in the midst?
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
It's even uglier when seen in the cold detachment of their initial planning talks. That they have succeeded so well is infuriating. That these churches have so many skeletons in their closets makes their hypocrisy even more disgusting. One gratifying thing is to see how much the Mormons wanted not to be seen as being in the forefront of the attack on gays, and to now see how badly they failed in that objective. With each peaceful protest staged by their victims in front of their temples - with each reminder of how they bore false witness against their neighbors by financing television ads that contained ugly lies - with each call for the Mormons to lose their tax-exempt status - with each reference to the Mormon's hypocrisy of pushing "traditional marriage" despite their history of polygamy - with each reference to their arrogant practice of involuntary posthumous baptism of the dead of other faiths - with each mention of the Mormon's transformation from oppressed to oppressors - with each reminder of how they attempt to force their faith on others - with each revelation of their hypocritical secret collusion with the Roman Catholic Church that they officially condemn - with each gay boycott of Mormon businesses - with each reminder of their historic treatment of blacks and other minorities - with each reminder of Joseph Smith's underage wives (plural) - with each reminder that their attacks on gays have always gone far beyond the simplistic concept of "defense of marriage" - they discover to what extent the gun they thought they were pointing at us was actually aimed at their own feet.
frizbeesf
· 1 year ago
Ok, *deep breath* It’s time for some tough love.
I know this will not be the most popular view in the room but it needs to be said. - The "No On 8" campaign was the Dukakis Campaign of the Gay Rights Movement, - inept, mismanaged, and overwhelmed by our opponents with their first TV. Ad.
The No On 8 team was slow to adapt, slow to respond and relied on focus group data that had no connection to the reality on the ground in this fight. I donated money, I phone banked and I stood on street corners and waved signs. I emailed, called and texted friends worldwide asking them to go and donate money. The result? Ads that talked in soft fuzzy undefined terms about equality. Phone bank scripts that were sanitized to avoid any direct references to anything "Gay" because apparently No On 8's all-knowing all-seeing "focus group" was turned off by references to anything homosexual.
One of the great lessons from this defeat is how our OWN homophobia played as much of a role in our defeat as did the homophobia and bigotry of our enemies. Consequently the No On 8 efforts were scared to talk about the issue in real, honest terms. Terms like:
- If you support prop 8 , you think Gays and Lesbians should be 2nd Class citizens with less rights than you - If you support prop 8, you hate Gay people - If you support prop 8 you share the same views as the brown shirts of Krystalnacht and the Klansmen on the Edmund Pettis Bridge Bridge - If you support prop 8 you Do NOT share the same views as our nation’s founding fathers . You think the Constitution is a flawed document. - If you support Prop 8 you think the Mormon Church should write the Laws of the State of CA, instead of the CA Legislature.
That was and STILL is the REAL debate. No On 8 allowed the proponents of Prop 8 to define the issue with ONE ad. (The Gavin Newsom "Whether you like or not!" Ad.) It was not until the very end of the race did No On 8 seem to grasp that we were losing. The final ad showing two Mormon elders invading the home of a Lesbian couple to take away their rings and Marriage certificate should have been the FIRST ad out of the gate. Not pathetic "Mac vs. PC" rip off ads that proved to be a JOKE. A sad expensive joke at that.
And now the joke is on all of us. Going forward the question is not "do you believe all Californians should have equal rights?" That question is only half of the issue. This debate is NOT JUST about equality it is about BIGOTRY and HATRED.
Do the people of California believe that Gays & Lesbians are less of human beings than Straight Californians? And who governs the State of California? The people of CA or the Mormon Church?
The sanitized and frankly homophobic approach suggested by No On 8's focus group data FAILED. It's time to fight this in the open.
All Comments
I don't think friends at the IRS are going to be able to help them if the US decides they want it. I know the message has been heard. We can also hope that even if they don't do anything this time, that they'll start looking into it and being aware of loopholes and possibly close those up for future use!
One part of this I find offensive is how much money had to have come from out of state.
And a couple whiny of whiny commenters made arguments in an earlier post that boiled down to "nyah, nyah, we voted, if you don't like it you can leave."
I wonder they would feel if the situation were reversed; I'm not going to try to hypothesize anything specific, given my relative lack of knowledge of the history of LDS in this country (including persecution).
I noticed just last week that the Southern Poverty Law Center lists them as a hate group.
Maybe it's karma, but California's burning.
.
I say it's Gawd's will that Utah has no water. If you really want to hurt them, get the surrounding States to cut them off, or drain them dry.
.
Isn't that a lesson for our time? Except the fundies and other cults have adherents that Jim Jones would have positively envied.
When Obama was campaigning, he knew he had to have a team in place that could respond immediately to anything the Republicans threw at him and he did.
That's what was missing from the No on 8 folks, a team of people to anticipate the arguments and have a ready and hopefully effective response that would help diminish the fears planted by their opponents.
It's interesting to know that the LDS has '5 years plans' like the USSR used to have. This is not just intolerance with long term planning, this is "master plan" to diffuse the blame. (unless the document is a forgery.)
---"But President Hinckley apparently urged caution as the memo makes clear, "he (President Hinckley) also said the (LDS) Church should be in a coalition and not out front by itself." ---
If the Mormon cult was to be a group of hate mongers, is one thing; but to actively try to subvert the civil rights of another, is something else altogether. They need to have their tax exempt status revoked. The KKK doesn't have tax exempt status, why should the LDS?
Mole in the midst?
I know this will not be the most popular view in the room but it needs to be said. - The "No On 8" campaign was the Dukakis Campaign of the Gay Rights Movement, - inept, mismanaged, and overwhelmed by our opponents with their first TV. Ad.
The No On 8 team was slow to adapt, slow to respond and relied on focus group data that had no connection to the reality on the ground in this fight. I donated money, I phone banked and I stood on street corners and waved signs. I emailed, called and texted friends worldwide asking them to go and donate money. The result? Ads that talked in soft fuzzy undefined terms about equality. Phone bank scripts that were sanitized to avoid any direct references to anything "Gay" because apparently No On 8's all-knowing all-seeing "focus group" was turned off by references to anything homosexual.
One of the great lessons from this defeat is how our OWN homophobia played as much of a role in our defeat as did the homophobia and bigotry of our enemies. Consequently the No On 8 efforts were scared to talk about the issue in real, honest terms. Terms like:
- If you support prop 8 , you think Gays and Lesbians should be 2nd Class citizens with less rights than you
- If you support prop 8, you hate Gay people
- If you support prop 8 you share the same views as the brown shirts of Krystalnacht and the Klansmen on the Edmund Pettis Bridge Bridge
- If you support prop 8 you Do NOT share the same views as our nation’s founding fathers . You think the Constitution is a flawed document.
- If you support Prop 8 you think the Mormon Church should write the Laws of the State of CA, instead of the CA Legislature.
That was and STILL is the REAL debate. No On 8 allowed the proponents of Prop 8 to define the issue with ONE ad. (The Gavin Newsom "Whether you like or not!" Ad.) It was not until the very end of the race did No On 8 seem to grasp that we were losing. The final ad showing two Mormon elders invading the home of a Lesbian couple to take away their rings and Marriage certificate should have been the FIRST ad out of the gate. Not pathetic "Mac vs. PC" rip off ads that proved to be a JOKE. A sad expensive joke at that.
And now the joke is on all of us. Going forward the question is not "do you believe all Californians should have equal rights?" That question is only half of the issue. This debate is NOT JUST about equality it is about BIGOTRY and HATRED.
Do the people of California believe that Gays & Lesbians are less of human beings than Straight Californians? And who governs the State of California? The people of CA or the Mormon Church?
The sanitized and frankly homophobic approach suggested by No On 8's focus group data FAILED. It's time to fight this in the open.