DISQUS

Indigo · 4 months ago

"All animals are equal but pigs are more equal."
-George Orwell

Judas Peckerwood · 4 months ago

Yup. The NAACP is as out of step and obsolete as their name. Seriously, when was the last time they actually accomplished something -- as opposed to blowing hot air and claiming the accomplishments of others as their own?

Bill_Perdue · 4 months ago

Several commenters are taking the wrong approach to this question. Their 'fuck you' attitude towards all African Americans plays into the hands of christian homohaters led by Obama and abandons the field to them.

I think it's based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what's at work here.

There's nothing wrong with criticizing misleaders in Obama’s inner circle of christian homohaters. Nor do I have a problem criticizing misleaders in the NAACP and SCLC when they dismiss our struggle, especially around the question of same sex marriage.

The growth of widespread focused homohatred among rightwing religious cult figures in all sectors of the populace, including African Americans, is a fairly new development and the direct result of pandering by Democrats and Republicans alike. It began in a big way over a decade ago when Bill Clinton championed the passage of DOMA, signing it within hours of its passage and immediately running radio ads boasting about it on redneck christer radio stations. It worked. Clinton was reelected in spite of losing union voters because of their anger at NAFTA.

Karl Rove took a page from “Bill Clintons Big Book of Bigotry” and cultivated links with catholic and protestant cult leaders, particularly southern baptists. He created a network of pulpit pimps who traded ‘faith based’ federal bribes for political support for Republicans using same sex marriage as a wedge issue.

In 2008 Joshua Dubois in the Obama campaign and Leah Daughtry in the DNC made a major effort to ‘reach out’ to bigots in ’08 elections. Homohatred became one of the keys to Democratic success beginning with Rev. Donnie McClurkin and culminating with Obama’s treacherous words “gawd’s in the mix”. Obama won a big chunk of the cult vote back from the Republicans and torpedoed efforts to defend SSM in California.

The divisiveness between African Americans and some Euroamerican LGBT folks was sharpened by their hysterically racist attempt to blame African Americans for Prop 8.

Divisions between the two communities are largely artificial and based on cult membership or racism, both right wing responses to social questions. We can offset the work of Karl Rove, Leah Daughtry and Josh Dubois by using every opportunity to support the actions of potential allies in unions, minority communities, the antiwar movement and among environmentalists.

If we have criticisms they should be specifically directed at homohaters not whole communities.

fetter1 · 4 months ago

I would caution you to avoid looking at this problem as white vs. black. There are plenty of individuals in Latino communities (of which I also happen to belong) who have absolutely no fondness for blacks and vice versa. Race and racism are so much more complex than the black-white binary.

Bill_Perdue · 4 months ago

Well gosh, fetter1, I certainly wasn't trying to deny that racism exists across the board in the US.

I lived in LA for 25 years and I know all about artificial tensions between communities. They’re used to divide working people and bust unions. So don’t forget the racism against Asians and Pacific Islanders, native Americans, immigrant and imported workers, misogyny and antiunion sentiment.

The US is a cesspool of artificially created and maintained bigotries between ethnicities, genders and of course between us and straight people. The question raised here was about the artificial divisions between GLBT forks and Africans Americans so that was the thrust of my comments but the same applies to other groups affected by the bipartisan pandering of Democrats and Republicans.

In future please keep that in mind if my comments are centered on the specific question of the original post.

fetter1 · 4 months ago

Understood. Keep in mind not all gay and lesbian folk are white. And not all of them are who are non-white are free from racism.

Bill_Perdue · 4 months ago

Exactly fetter1. It's what I said. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Gridlock · 4 months ago

How quick they forget. He needs to open a history book. His ignorance makes me want to puke.

It's always this "gays are riding black coattails" excuse, when the reality is it's just homophobic bigotry and revulsion at being lumped in with the icky faggots.

mtiffany · 4 months ago

So much for "the content of one's character..."

FFups · 4 months ago

I saw that interview yesterday and had some of the same thoughts. I was particularly offended by his suggestion that Black civil rights and gay civil rights are not the same because gay folks supposedly can hide their orientation. First, it’s offensive to even bring that up (why should we hide who we are?). Second, in many cases it’s not even true (people are actually pretty good in figuring out sexual orientation. Plus, some LGBTs are simply gender non-conforming - no matter how hard they "try"...). Third, I really found it ironic that this came from a man who could easily “pass” as white. He’d probably (and rightly) be offended if somebody suggested that Black civil rights shouldn’t all be that important to him, because … hey, he could easily pass as White! So, why does he bring it up for gay people??

Butch1 · 4 months ago

His reasons were ignorant. For an intelligent man, it was disappointing to hear him give those excuses for diminishing the plight of gays and lesbians in achieving equal rights.

ndtovent · 4 months ago

exaCTLY! There were a lot of african-americans back then who could "pass" for white as well, but it didn't make things any better for civil rights equality, did it?

davidinchelseama · 4 months ago

Exactly how do two gay people HIDE their sexual orientation from city hall when they apply for a marriage license?

They certainly can't hide it there.

Benjamin Todd Jealous is a disingenuous ass.

Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas · 4 months ago

Mmmm...well this is one nasty faggot who worked for civil rights in his youth...took a fairly horrid beating one day during desegregation in a Florida junior high school and called "Ni**er Lover"...marched in college at great risk in front of pig cops. This is one nasty faggot who will now turn his back on the black movement...it's quid pro quo, kiddies. Fuck you.

PeteWa · 4 months ago

it's important to remember that your previously held beliefs and convictions had nothing to do with this guy, or the NAACP, or anything else.
Doing the right thing is doing the right thing, even when you take a beating for it, or when someone you helped spits on you.

or as the mock-latin aphorism relates, "Don't let the bastards grind you down."

Mike_in_the_Tundra · 4 months ago

Excellent point. Many of us faggots worked hard for them (many people in my southern town really hated me for that). Sometimes it seems that Coretta Scott King was the only one who remembered that.

mtiffany · 4 months ago

I think you meant, "it's quid pro quo, bro..."

SouthernYankee · 4 months ago

I know this doesn't have anything to do with this topic but I tell you when you hear this kind of stuff of people wanting not to help groups it makes me sick to think about it. I am beginning to think that all these famous people who have died lately must be better off then the rest of us. They don't have to put up with this kind of cramp. They don't have to put up with all the drama about climate change, health care and politics. You know am sick and tired of it.

John Aravosis · 4 months ago

And I was often mistaken for Jewish in college (and since then too), and remember the first time someone yelled anti-semitic epithets at me. I also got them a lot when I wrote about About.com - if I wrote a pro-Israeli article I'd get lots of emails talking about my curly hair and how it was obvious I was a Jew. Then there was the time I first moved out to the east coast, and in NYC I'd get coyly asked what my last name - when I answered Aravosis, I'd get "oh" - sigh or relief - "I thought you were Jewish." (It used to always happen, doesn't much any more.) It was very weird. Definitely opened my eyes. The discrimination is very similar among all the groups - each has its own unique manifestation, and each group has gone through its own unique trials. But I think folks are on very thin ice when they start the play the "my group suffered/suffers more than yours" game. I mean, are we really going to weigh the relative merits of slavery and the Holocaust, for example?

TheOriginalLiz · 4 months ago

Wouldn't it be nice if, instead of focusing piecemeal on black rights, gay rights or women's rights, we focused on the rights of everyone who isn't a middle-aged, straight or seriously closeted white men?

daarchitek · 4 months ago

I will agree to disagree. I am not really trying to argue with you. I actaully agree with most of what your saying. I just think there are some major differences that makes both struggles not the same. The color of your Skin in this world defines you alot more than your life style, for better or worst.

dula · 4 months ago

Gay is not a "life style". You are born with your sexuality. When did you choose to be Straight? These are old, tired, cliched justifications for homophobia.

daarchitek · 4 months ago

I am not trying to say that gays don't have rights or to not respect there wishes to live "normal".. All I am saying is that its not the same as being being black, that is all.

Also to the comment of comparing jews to blacks. there were black jews. and there were many more blacks/ Africans killed, they just wasn't important enough in many histories to be documented of the true number.

but back to the reason of commenting. The Naccp doesn't have a stance, because its built to try and speak for all blacks, which is really not possible on this topic. It might be seen as an excuse, but I am sure that its the reason why they are not taking a stance. That's why they pick dumb topics like, killing the word nigga. It's why churches try rather fight gays than talk bout all the unhealthy people in there membership. another topic sorry.

dula · 4 months ago

Since your keeping score, Far more GLBTs were killed by the Nazis than Blacks...so by your logic, they have suffered more than Blacks.
You are hung up on the superficial differences of the Gay struggle vs. Black. In PRINCIPAL they are the SAME. I defer to Coretta Scott King.

makatak · 4 months ago

There is a crucial difference between racial civil rights and gay civil rights. As a dark-skinned black person I CANNOT change the pigmentation of my skin. My brother, as a light-skinned black person has and can “pass” for white. As a gay person I CAN change the manner in which I present myself to others. My sister, as a conservative gay person has and can “pass” for straight. This may be considered an "in the closet mentality” or "living a lie;" however the fact remains ... as a gay person I have a choice. Having said that ... the discrimination, the brutality, the lunacy, the ignorance, the inhumanity IS THE SAME! Our Constitution grants that "all men are created equal” and the right of "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." There is an argument to be made that is not founded in emotion or precedent. Whether you are faithful or not, gay or not, rich or not, educated or not, old or not, American or not, political or not, male or not, civilian or not, Black or not ... we are all human. HUMANITY DEMANDS CIVILITY AND EQUALITY … IMMEDIATELY … EVERY TIME!

dula · 4 months ago

The crucial difference between Gay Civil Rights and Black Civil Rights is that Blacks were hung from trees for being Black while Gays are merely tied to fences and beaten to death for being Gay.
BTW, some Gay people do NOT have a choice of whether or not to "pass". Do not sit there and pretend that you never met a Gay person that, at an early age, was clearly gonna be Gay. You may think you are passing but I suspect your attempts to butch it up are met with a chuckle.

Manamongst_Hussein · 4 months ago

Dude that's pretty ignorant to think that gays actively make the "choice" to be gay. To me this is the slippery out that many men use to absolve their soul of guilt. I haven't seen too many women...outside of the Bachmann wignut cult who believe this. You can't be that ignorant? That would be like me being your wife and blaming you for snoring on purpose. I can not bring myself to believe that you believe that. I'm straight, and not a genius...but I would gather if you are straight, and like slim women...or better yet really do not like fat women, there's nothing I can say or do that would get you turned-on by a fat woman. Not a hard concept this empathy stuff....

Ferdiad · 4 months ago

This is very serious problem that most liberals do not want to address. I applaud this site for talking about it. The reality is that a large portion of the black male population are homophobic. Yes, I am specifically limiting this to the black males. Also, before you send me nasty emails, I didn't say all, but am saying a large portion. I have personally witnessed it on many occasions. Finally, do not interpret my comments to mean that only black males are homophobic. I would argue that most patriarchal cultures are the very similar. It seems to be a trend in cultures where ones status is achieved by being "manly" or "strength" that homophobia rages. The problem when comes to discussing the NAACP is that it is difficult to rally others around ones cause when you discriminate (or at least won't endorse the cause) against another group. This will not be an easy discussion, but it is a necessary one.

leftypower · 4 months ago

Of course these civil rights struggles are not the same, but I wonder if a representative of the NAACP can explain to me how the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution should apply to black families, but not gay families.

daarchitek · 4 months ago

Being Gay/Lesbian and being Black are not the same thing. That maybe the reason they don't have a clear stance on the issue. I get sick of the comparisons. I am a black man and it is not the same. As A black person you are see soon as you walk threw the door what color your skin is, yes you can tell sometimes if a man or women is gay, but at the end of the day it basically boils down to what bedroom activities they want, which is really not my business. They are still and a man and still a woman. You have the option of trying to change what sex you prefer if you want or feel the pressure (not meaning you can "cure" yourself as some would say.), but you never have the option to change you color

Blueflash · 4 months ago

You obviously don't have a clue regarding the dehumanization gay people have been and continue to be subjected to. Like so many heterosexuals you fail to see what a fundamental and profound part a person's sexual orientation plays in life (it's not just what people do in bed) because, as a heterosexual, it never poses any problems for you. At any rate, it's a lie that this bigotry has anything to do, ultimately, with "what we do". It's about what we ARE, just like race. No bigot ever asked the celibate gay person (and there is such a thing, whether by choice or circumstances) if they were sexually active before bashing them. Take my word for it, for us gays it's a constant accompaniment to our interactions with other people. You haven't the faintest idea of the extent to which a closeted gay person must live a life of constant lies and deception and the emotional and psychological toll that that carries. You have no idea what it's like to be rejected by family and friends because you have the ethical integrity NOT to live a lie (and then get slammed for "immorality" for having that courage and integrity). You have no idea what it's like to have your religious leaders tell you (and your family) that "God hates you". I wish that every homosexual and bisexual bore some kind of physical sign of it. We wouldn't even be having this debate - same-sex orientation would have long ago been accepted as a normal part of human variation. By the way, I feel confident that African American homophobia will eventually hurt the black community (it already does in preventing the necessary steps to control AIDS) more than it hurts gays (of all races) - you're gradually losing the sympathy of many people who expected that, of all people, you'd be able to walk a mile in the shoes of others who have also been dehumanized.

daarchitek · 4 months ago

I am not trying to challenge what a gay person goes through because I know its hard. But what I am saying is that being gay is not the same as being a person of color. There maybe be some similarities but its not the same. The struggle of a black man in America does not equal the struggle of a gay man, unless hes black or Hispanic. when one is a Black African American, or Hispanic American, they have usually been sterotyped in negative ways far more than any other, on a daily bases.

Also there's a lot more things that will hurt the African American far worst than homophobia, African Americans are very aware of the growth of gay men, and even gay women in the community. I would say health in general will hurt the community far more.

dula · 4 months ago

By your reasoning then the Jews suffered more than the Blacks because the Blacks were merely enslaved while the Jews were extinguished. Petty.

Ferdiad · 4 months ago

In addition, the comments in this post exemplify the problem. It is still socially acceptable to discriminate against gays, one of the last groups it is still acceptable to discriminate against. I'm not saying discrimination doesn't happen to others, but it isn't "socially acceptable." What do I mean by that? I mean that it isn't acceptable anymore to debate at cocktail parties whether bi-racial marriage is acceptable or whether we should enforce Jim Crow. It is, however, acceptable to debate whether gays are "really discriminated" against or whether they should have full equal protection under the law.

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

For many blacks, it's not discrimination. Blacks don't HATE gays. They're just indifferent to them. They look at it as "that's them." It's not a pressing issue. It's seen more as an emotional issue instead of a "civil rights" issue. Gays can still work...get a job wherever they chose....aren't limited in education or discriminated against for housing, etc. and I'm saying this on a whole. Yes there are individual pockets of discrimination...but it is not seen by the broader minority view as 3 alarm fire preventing one from carrying on their daily activities and advancing.

dula · 4 months ago

If Blacks are so "indifferent" to Gays then why are so many voting against Gay Equality? Since Prop. 8 in California I have heard so much ignorance and hatred coming out of the mouths of Black people. What you are saying is that you don't give a fuck about Gay Rights because some Gays have better jobs than some Blacks. Petty. Btw, some Gays and especially Transgendered people ARE denied Jobs and housing based on their appearance...even in *gasp* San Francisco (where a Lesbian was beaten and gang raped last year because she was Gay...but you go ahead and tell her she hasn't suffered enough in her "daily activities").

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

You're really serious aren't you? lol The two of us....I see can never have an open dialogue.

All these *gasps* and exasperations and exaggerations do nothing for open communication. Your intent is to prove my "ignorance" of which I've acknowledge and further make me seem/feel stupid for my lack of understanding.

You've done your job well Dula. You're right....my "ignorance" is BLISS. I'll remain that way when it comes to you. Enjoy your day.....and keep fighting! Keep Hope Alive! lol

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

Also...the opposite of love is not necessarily HATE....it can be indifference. There is a solid distinction. I wanted to understand...but you're right...Now I don't give a dayum when it comes to Your opinion. Now who's petty??? LOL

Signed...
Bissfully f*kkin ignorant. lol

dula · 4 months ago

It's only indifference if you don't vote AGAINST my Rights... you can't quite seem to grasp the concept.
C ya wouldn't wanna B ya.

Ferdiad · 4 months ago

You mean kind of how most "whites" feel about black issues and get attacked for it? Most white people don't believe that blacks actually are limited in education or housing. They think is more just "that's them." In other words, they are indifferent, rather than purposely or intentionally discriminatory. They believe that a black person can likewise carry out their daily lives and advance (and millions do).

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

You're absolutely correct....I don't have a clue! But I thank you for your honesty. I actually felt your words. I don't understand homosexuality. I'm just grateful it's another cross I DID NOT have to bare along w/the color of my skin.

You're often seen as immoral but NEVER seen as CREATED less than by your Creator. As a person of color we have been systematically taught that we are "less than" in intelligence, in ability, etc. We're always told we "don't quite measure up" or...."they just don't get it." We STILL LIVE this DAILY.....thought to be akin to monkeys swinging in trees, etc. Our color is a "stigma" attached to us at BIRTH. The history of the NAACP was to fight that stigma. It's a weight around our necks from the time we enter school and start test taking until we settle into a mindless job w/all of the other mindless minions.
Our physical features were ridiculed....our hair...even our manner of speaking.

Perhaps for some of us we will never see a meeting of the two....but all we can do is try to keep dialogue open w/o condemning one another because one hasn't evolved to a position we think they should have.

I sincerely appreciate your post. It has enlightened me. I still do not equate civil rights w/gay rights....but perhaps because I'm old skool and from a differen generation. Pain is the common denominator that binds us all....but not all pain rises to the level of the attention or intensity that those who've struggled w/it's effects for centuries can coalesce <sp> around.

Often I've read posts on here and they seemed "snarky gays". I guess it could be equated to the Angry Black Man that we've been accused of being because we were tired of being 2nd class citizens. I see the differences in our fights as well as the similarities. However....I still cannot (as far as my fight and my families' fight...along w/countless others who have paid w/blood, sweat, tears and their lives) equate this to gay rights. I however, appreciate your post because it has opened my mind on several areas. TY

dula · 4 months ago

Once ignorant Straight people realize Gays were born that way I'm sure the next step will be to view them as "created less than by the Creator". Already we are told we "don't quite measure up, and just don't get it". WE STILL LIVE THIS DAILY. Being Gay is a STIGMA attached to us from a very very early age (once it's clear that many of us are "too sensitive, or effeminate, or weak, or too butch(Lesbians)". It's a weight around our necks from the moment we enter school...our physical appearances are ridiculed along with our manner of speaking. I don't give a fuck that you are so petty as to try and keep score of who has suffered more. Just don't vote against my Rights and we'll be fine. You owe us at least that much even if you haven't learned the lessons of discrimination. I defer to Coretta Scott king on this issue.

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

You keep deferring to CSK...well enough. She does not speak for ALL blacks as I'm sure your posts have not spoken for ALL gays.

You have definitely made your point w/me regarding "ignorant straight people." You like to name call just as you've been called names. You like to attack instead of sharing content and understanding. Your mentality demonstrates why doors close.

My post to Bluefish was acknowledging my "ignorance" on Many issues in the gay community. Your posts continue to erect walls. Good going.

dula · 4 months ago

Yes it's clear CSK does not speak for all Blacks unfortunately, since it's obvious she was quite enlightened, wise, and learned the lessons of discrimination. You came here from a place of smugness. You have all your legal Civil Rights so it's very easy for you to debate a topic that you said earlier was not your problem. Once I have all my Rights I won't care what you think of me and will be willing to agree to disagree...and that's what your afraid of. I have observed that many Blacks are getting off on the idea that they have the power to deny another minority their Rights...it makes 'em feel real big. But I'm not the one.

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

I have not come from a place of smugness. You shouldn't be so quick to assume.

I marched in Selma....was the first bussed in an all white school.....beaten....actually stoned w/bones being broken. It's not about putting one's foot on another's neck to keep them subjected to something we would not want to be subjected to. As I've stated all along it's a lack of understanding. But YOU seem intent on placing this hand of blame on anyone who does not understand or agree w/YOU. You gotta learn to fight smarter....not harder and angrier. We had to do it as well back in the day.

My opinion of YOU means nothing. I'm merely pixels on a screen who was attempting to gain an understanding. YOU have allowed me to see you're more interested in anger instead of attempting to dialogue.

I have admitted, I know very little of the homosexual life although I've been exposed to it for a large part of my adult life in a very personal way.

Rid yourself of some of the anger Dula. Everybody who doesn't agree w/you is NOT your enemy.

Keith & Dustin · 4 months ago

Well, I think it's nice of you to come to a blog to get a better understanding of our struggle. If more people would try to understand us we probably wouldn't be where we are. African American's are still discriminated against to this day but that will never change, just like us homos, when we finally get our legal rights, it will not stop the discrimination. Our country is full of intolerant people and my theory is it's because our government condones discrimination which in turn leads the society to agree with it. Blacks were persecuted by their government for a long time and are just now coming into their own over the past 20 years. Having a black man elected as president was therapeutic and enlightening and will open doors and tear down more walls as the years go by. Having an openly gay president some day might be a reality also. But first our government must stop persecuting us and we must continue to demand it.

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

Keith & Dustin, I agree. There's so much that goes into this intolerance of gays and lesbians. A lot past my understanding. But I know religion does play a Huge part. Especially in the black community. If we've been taught one thing it's that God is against homosexuality. Whether He truly is or not....I don't know. If we could get a reconciliation w/what we've read in our bibles from childhood up with what we know is right (not to discriminate) that would be a major step.

All I know is I'm supposed to love my brother as I would want to be loved (treated) and that is what I will do...regardless of sexual orientation. The end...I'll leave to God to sort out. I would like to know how that is reconciled in the minds of gays. Is it something you fight w/internally?

My finite mind teaches me live and let live. I have no heaven nor hell to place people in....but religion seems to be at the crux of many of these issues.

Keith & Dustin · 4 months ago

One thing I've seen with the black community is how religious they are and that doesn't help our cause because many religious leaders aren't tolerant of gays. It's my hope that people start thinking for themselves, especially our brothers and sisters of color who know what discrimination tastes like. Courage is standing up to these moral leaders and letting them know you will not tolerate discrimination of any kind. The bible is not a device for people to reference as justification for their bigotry or discriminating acts. If anything, God is the only one who should be judging us.

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

It's not just about "religion" it's what we honestly believe the bible teaches. What we've read. That's where the true contradictions come in. I have enjoyed this exchange and look forward to more. I really am interested in this, contrary to the belief of dula lol. Thank you.

Keith & Dustin · 4 months ago

No one told that to Michael Jackson. He was a cute black kid who turned into a scary looking white woman lol.

Keith & Dustin · 4 months ago

Discrimination has many forms but I feel that no matter what discrimination you endured, you still know what it feels like to be treated differently. Our struggles are different but we were all still discriminated against. And since you know what that feels like I would expect you not to discriminate against someone else so easily. America is filled with too many intolerant assholes so it's my hope that we all join hands against them.

rmthunter · 4 months ago

You obviously have no idea what being gay is like. It is not merely "bedroom activities", and you're only furthering the dehumanization of gays when you say so. Sexual orientation is something that permeates your life and affects all of your relationships -- it's just that straight people never think about it because they've never had to fight for the right to behave naturally.

Get a clue, would you?

Manamongst_Hussein · 4 months ago

You're right, I'm a straight black man and I would say it is harder for gays. Being discriminated and hated for something you can not change sounds an apt enough comparison.

Rafe · 4 months ago

John,

What is your problem? You have some serious issues with black people that always seem to bubble up in the most asinine ways.

Here you are attacking the NAACP even though the NAACP filed a brief opposing Prop 8!

http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid73682.asp

The Chairman of NAACP, Julian Bond, has strongly come out for gay rights. Why did you fail to note that?

Hey, John, once again you do your part to pee all over African-Americans needlessly, giving the supposedly liberal racists (who were happy to make their bigotry known vociferously during the campaign) another excuse to "justify" their racism.


John,

Not too long ago when Hillary Clinton was nominated by Obama, you dismissively said that people who had issues with Clinton because of her race baiting campaign should get over it. We should all come together as one party.

You don't seem to enjoy second class treatment or expect to be told to shut up and sit down, but you are willing to tell others to do so.

As a long time reader of your site, it's just sad that you are still so racially tone deaf. I've read many reports about gays of color feeling rejected by the supposed white gay elite.

Reading your blog, I understand why they would feel that way. You just don't seem to get it. You just picked a needless fight.

Rafe · 4 months ago

Hasta Luego!

As a long time reader who always tries to click on your ads, John, I think it's time for me to take a break from Americablog.

I appreciate your fight for civil for gays. I applaud your efforts and the fire you possess to help people.

I'm tired of your crass, inconsiderate racial insensitivity. You just don't seem to get it. You always jump to worst conclusions about African-Americans. You ignore nuance. You ignore facts.

In effect, you become, at times, the liberal racist Republicans describe cynically but accurately.

Jesus, John, look at the ugliness you've unleashed in your comments section. It's just a lesser form of the bigotry Hillary Clinton unleashed with her race baiting that allowed supposedly liberal Democrats to give voice to their inner bigot.

adrian_bklyn · 4 months ago

See ya. John just posted the video and Ben did the talking.

What kind of premier, national civil rights organization remains silent while another minority group is blatantly discriminated against?

AND Hillary did make the point that it took a leader within government (LBJ) to take the unpopular position and enact change for an oppressed minority. How's that race baiting? Where's Obama's leadership on gay civil rights?

Ferdiad · 4 months ago

Isn't this the blog that went after Hillary for her race baiting and supported Obama? The real issue is that you can't seem to allow anyone to criticize your protected ideals in any manner. What are you afraid of?

psychodrew · 4 months ago

Just remember that turning this into a black vs. gay thing helps ONLY the right-wing.

bmore_mjc · 4 months ago

You're right. Gay people should just shut up and quit pestering people to treat us as equals and quit expecting the president to keep his promises. There we go again!

psychodrew · 4 months ago

That's not at all what I mean. I have been PISSED at Obama for the way he has treated the gay community. What I mean is that we shouldn't make this a black vs gay thing. We should criticize the NAACP, but not allow this to influence our attitudes toward the African American community in general. As I wrote downthread, many other African-American leaders are enthusiastic supporters of marriage equality and other gay rights issues. These actions speak only to the leadership of this civil rights organization and NOTHING more.

RobertSanDimas · 4 months ago

Psycho: just read your profile. Good for you! Partner and I feel the same. Hope others take a look too.

Moncusa · 4 months ago

It doesn't have to be "turned" into a black versus gay thing. It already is. And it has nothing to do with the Right Wing. To think they enjoy some kind of divide-and-conquer thing with these arguments is a false Left Wing fantasy.

Upland_Oddball · 4 months ago

Looks like the political intent of the Faith-Based Community Grants program worked beautifully. That program was always about weaning community-orientated black and Latino churches away from the progressive cause through blatant bribery. It was clear that to receive the grants and to keep receiving them, the applicants had to pass a right-wing litmus test.

I don't think that the NAACP itself applied for or received such grant money from the Bush administration, but I wouldn't bet against a large number of member congregations applying and getting some of that loot.

And by embracing a hard, inflexible line on social issues such as gay equality, it is obvious that many NAACP member churches and their money-chasing ministers passed the litmus test with flying colors.

What can we do? One thing to do is to not donate any of our gay money to the NAACP itself, and to stop giving to any United Way or similar outfit that funds it. If money made it easy for an outfit originally founded by W.E. B. DuBois to fight bigotry, to become an agent of bigotry then let the lack of money bring it back to its roots.

Not a penny more to the NAACP and also to the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. If a local chapter is still fighting the good fight, give generously to it provided that it doesn't forward a cent to the national headquarters.

PeteWa · 4 months ago

James Baldwin, Langston Hughes, Angela Davis, Alice Walker, John Amaechi, Ma Rainey, Douglas Spearman, Johnny Mathis, Darryl Stephens, Felicia Pearson, E. Lynn Harris, Andre Leon Talley, Jermaine Stuart, Sheryl Swoopes, Meshell Ndegeocello, Octavia Butler, Bill T Jones, Tracy Chapman, Alvin Ailey, Paris Barclay, RuPaul, Keith Boykin, Alain Locke, Richard Bruce Nugent, Wanda Sykes, Lawrence Webb, Bayard Rustin, Barbara Jordan, Josephine Baker, Lee Daniels, Sakia Gunn, Audre Lorde, and millions of others...

None of these people exist in Benjamin Todd's world.

Butch1 · 4 months ago

This is what happens when a group refuses to think any one else's equal rights are "equal" to their own. They do not want to share the stage with anyone when it comes to equal rights. This type of trash talk only makes them look small and bigoted. Bigotry can only happen to them. I wonder how they feel about a person who has three strikes against them? A black, lesbian, woman . . .

It is embarrassing and very sad that this still goes on today and in this century. NAACP, get over yourselves.

hillcrestdenizen · 4 months ago

I've just about lost all sympathy for the African-American community. I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's every man/woman (gay) for themselves. Any effort I put into life is going to be for my benefit and those of my people.

John Aravosis · 4 months ago

Well, a lot of gays are black, so don't write everyone off. And there are plenty of black people who are pro-gay. Let's not do what others do to us - lumping us all in together with a stereotype.

DutchButch · 4 months ago

Too true. Here in Oakland people overwhelmingly voted AGAINST Prop 8. Oakland! Oaktown!
The city so many people are so afraid of because of 'all the crime (read: 47% black, therefore crime)
My neighbor told me that in her (primarily black) Catholic church in West-Oakland, the preacher basically told people to vote FOR EQUALITY.
Is there homophobia in the black community? Absolutely.
Is there homophobia in the white/asian/indian communities?
Absolutely.

Bruno · 4 months ago

I recall a woman from the NAACP (perhaps the leader of the bay area or California chapter?) did a radio spot for "No on 8" that ran in the weeks before the election. And she got raked over the coals for it in at least one instance that I recall.

Dateline_Molly · 4 months ago

True. Here in CA, the statistics seemed to bear out that Prop. 8 votes broke along AGE and RELIGIOUS lines, not across color lines.

e.g, young black voters were against Prop. 8, older voters of any ethnicity voted FOR it.

Keith & Dustin · 4 months ago

I read that 70% of African Americans voted for prop 8 at the polls. That blew my mind. I just don't understand how a class of people, who were persecuted for so long themselves, could vote for the persecution of others. It was sickening. I saw them waving their yes on 8 flags on the corners and I couldn't help but think what was compelling them to hold up a sign that verified their blatant discrimination of others? And to this day, I still can't wrap my mind around the fact that millions of Californian's voted to eliminate a basic right of others (that a court of law had granted). It's still mind boggling to me.

SD_Dave · 4 months ago

K&D - that was the CNN exit polls that came out the night of Nov. 4th. Further studies debunked this 70% number. Here is the study performed by the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force did
( http://www.thetaskforce.org/reports_and_researc... ) which showed that no more than 59% actually voted for Prop 8.

One thing that I think everyone really needs to remember, that even if every African-American voted against Prop 8 it would have still passed. Granted, not by as large a margin as it did, but it still would have passed nonetheless.

psychodrew · 4 months ago

It's not the community. It's the leaders. Their leaders are just as spineless as many of ours.

Don't forget that Rev. Al Sharpton and Sen. Carol Moseley Braun (both African-Americans) were the ONLY Democratic presidential candidates in 2004 to support gay marriage. Rev. Sharpton has been a very strong ally of the gay community.

RobertSanDimas · 4 months ago

Thanks for reminding us of those two. Sharpton draws a lot of criticism (and ridicule - from the right). But, as you say, he is very clear about his support of GLBT equal rights. I have been an admirer of his since his eloquent speech at the '04 Democratic Convention.

psychodrew · 4 months ago

Al Sharpton is a fierce, unapologetic advocate for social justice. Those that benefit from social INequality have worked hard to marginalize him, but he keeps going.

PeteWa · 4 months ago

It is indeed a sad day when a person allows the bigotry of others to induce bigotry in oneself...

evietoo · 4 months ago

Pitiful. What's NOW's position?

psychodrew · 4 months ago

The National Organization for Women supports marriage equality.

JohnnyG · 4 months ago

Well NOW refused to side with gays when we objected to Elizabeth Vargas getting briefly bumped up to ABC's evening news host position. On 20/20, Vargas had done a piece exonerating Mathew Shepard's killers. They deny that homophobia was the motivation, and the only "proof" they have is their word. Vargas' 20/20 piece took the killers' word over sworn testimony by their girlfriends in the trial. Not to mention they had changed their story from the "gay panic" defense they used during the trial. But a changed story that contradicts sworn testimony was still perfectly credible to Vargas and crew.

When Vargas pulled low ratings on the evening news and they were threatening to can her, NOW cried sexism while gays tried to get them to realize they shouldn't be siding with her. But NOW continued to defend her as their heroine, completely unconcerned about homophobic actions.

Govind Acharya · 4 months ago

I happen to know Jealous personally through work at a previous organization that we both were affiliated. I think he did such a poor job here is that his personal views are very strongly pro-gay rights and pro-marriage equality, but I'm guessing that the organization he heads doesn't want to go there-- he said "that's a very tense debate..." which implies that he disagrees with the "no opinion" that the organization has adopted.

Gridlock · 4 months ago

"Jealous is strongly for gay rights and marriage equality, he just doesn't have the cojones to actually say it and instead falls back on the old excuses."

Bully for him. Really.

Let me know when he finds his sack and actually disagrees instead of tacitly endorsing bullshit.

Butch1 · 4 months ago

If this is true, he's no better than Obama's "fierce advocate" and then condoning with that homophobic brief.

ibankerbob · 4 months ago

Kudos to Boston_Queer_in_Dallas for his comments. I couldn't agree more.

The LGBT community - and its major organizations - should view the NAACP as having the moral equivalence of the government of aparthied South Africa.

Who are the board members of the NAACP? They should all be sent letters. They should all be telephoned.

What other boards do these NAACP board members sit on? Do these other organizations tolerate discrimination against the LBGT community? If the answer is no, then those NAACP board members need to be removed from their other board positions.

No respectable member of the LBGT community should serve on the board of the NAACP. No respectable member of the LGBT community should be included on its donor list.

Respectable members of the LGBT community - off all colors - should aggressively condemn Jealous' comments.

Jealous' should be removed as head of the NAACP as quickly as possible.

judybrowni · 4 months ago

This issue is by no means new, which means the black community should have developed a more fairminded plan by now.

James Baldwin, black and gay, was one of the foremost activist writers during the Civil Rights battles.

I read all of his books stocked in our local library when I was a (precocious) child, although Giovanni's Room, his big gay novel was notably missing.

A sign of the prejudice Baldwin would encounter on one hand or the other, and which would drive him to become an expatriate.

"Giovanni's Room is James Baldwin's second novel, first published in 1956 . . . noteworthy for bringing complex representations of homosexuality to a reading public with empathy and artistry, thereby fostering a broader public discourse of issues regarding same-sex desire...

Baldwin admitted that his publisher first told him to "burn" the book because the theme of homosexuality would alienate him from his Negro readership."

"In 1948, disillusioned by American prejudice against blacks and homosexuals, Baldwin left the United States and departed to Paris, France, where he would live as an expatriate for most of his later life."

"Baldwin's lengthy essay Down at the Cross (frequently called The Fire Next Time after the title of the book in which it was published)[13] similarly showed the seething discontent of the 1960s in novel form.

The essay was originally published in two oversized issues of The New Yorker and landed Baldwin on the cover of Time magazine in 1963 while Baldwin was touring the South speaking about the restive Civil Rights movement...

The assassinations of black leaders in the 1960s, Eldridge Cleaver's vicious homophobic attack on Baldwin in Soul on Ice, [lead to] Baldwin's return to southern France."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Baldwin_(writer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni%27s_Room

Webster · 4 months ago

Someone should send him a copy of Bayard Rustin's biography.

How easily they forget.

shell · 4 months ago

MLK is spinning in his grave.

God, I am SO SICK of cowards!

therepguy · 4 months ago

NAACP NEED TO REVIEW THERE HISTORIC RECORDS... THEY WILL FIND A NUMBER OF REFERENCES TO GAY MEN AND WOMEN RUNNING THE FREEDOM BUS AND WALKING IN THE MANY MARCHES!

iT TAKES ONE MINORITY TO UNDERSTAND AND SUPPORT AN OTHER MINORITY!

AND YES JUST AS BLACK ARE MINORITIES SO ARE GAYS!

DutchButch · 4 months ago

Writing in all CAPS does not help get your point across....

davidinchelseama · 4 months ago

Seriously, who gives a crap whether or not someone types in caps. It's silly to worry about such things, really.

There is nothing wrong with typing in caps.

Gridlock · 4 months ago

Netiquette says otherwise. It's the online equivalent to screaming.

davidinchelseama · 4 months ago

Yes, Gridlock. I am fully aware that it is the equivalent of screaming.

MAYBE HE FRIGGING FELT LIKE SCREAMING.

And who CARES what netiquette says, anyway? Are the caps police coming to arrest the guy?

Enough already, really. There are plenty of things to be anal about. TYPING IN CAPS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT ONE OF THEM.

Gridlock · 4 months ago

Your opinion is not a universal fact. Plenty of people find it stupid and whether or not you want to accept it, it DOES denigrate the argument of the person typing as such.

That's reality. Welcome to it.

davidinchelseama · 4 months ago

I am also fully aware that plenty of people find it stupid. I am merely expressing my OPINION that finding it stupid is, itself, STUPID.

Yikes.

Keith & Dustin · 4 months ago

I feel ya lol. I could care less if someone types in caps but some people really get annoyed with it. I'm more interested in the message rather than the format of it.

threadmonitor · 4 months ago

No ALL CAPS, please.

zircon · 4 months ago

i miss TWEAK! F***, CAN'T A GUY WRITE IT NOT ALL IN CAPS?

stldem · 4 months ago

Bayard Rustin was a significant figure in the Civil Rights movement AND he was gay. He was a devotee of Gandhi's, worked closely with Dr. King and was an organizing force in the March on Washington.
Interesting documentary
http://www.pbs.org/pov/brotheroutsider/

offspring · 4 months ago

yes and they threw him under the bus before and during the march.

editht · 4 months ago

The oppressed become the oppressor.

offspring · 4 months ago

This to me isnt about race and shouldnt be, I know i have been called racist on here several times which i found hillarious, as you never hear it applied to sharpton, or any other outspoken american that is black, but this is more of an issue of taught theology. Their are many, many records of white gay and lesbians riding the bus's, being beaten, some dying, many putting their lives and careers on the line for the civil rights movement, as they knew if one of my people has no rights, noone does. That time was washed away after civil rights where attained, the church's grew more powerful and corrupt. This religon that was forcefully taught to the slave's, and beaten into them suddenly became theirs. Now it is a powerful force, and they join with other church's that believe a human being is nothing without their beliefs, if you view a person or people through any religon's eyes as them and us, and we have god, because we follow this way and they don't, you will never ever see that person or group as a real human being, that will never happen. We have been saying things like why is obama catering to the right, they are not going to vote for him, they will never see his side of things, they will always view him as the enemy, that will never change, well we should take the same advice, the religous black and white and latino community will never like us, see us as people, no matter what we have done for their rights or not, no matter what we are never going to be equal to them, they view human trash, and will never change so stop being surprised when they dont like you or say something mean, to bad the choice of religion has more power in this country than any tax paying group, following an imaginary being, that base's its beliefs that this life is just a test, and that there is a separate "hell" for the bad people, and when bad happens it is the imaginary beings testing you, or satan, this is what we are up against, seriously not joking, the year 2009 and we are fighting with people that believe in exorcist, in hebrew zombie's, in a book full of incest, rape, murder, torture, genocide, oh and a bit about love, but it they live in a fear based reward system world, you can't argue or fight with them, the NAACP which to me has become just as racist as any organization that is white only, has their agenda and anything that takes the attention of of their agenda to another group that is legally discriminated against, will just not do. They have lost their meaning. Oh before you all do it i figure i would knock it out of the way, you can call me a racist, one there is no difference in human race genetically, so it would be a specist? hmm, well I am neither, I am ignorant on many things but willing to learn without the name calling and assumptions, also just because i see it different than you doesnt mean i am evil it means maybe that i have completely different view of things than you because of location and area makeup, and enviorment, just as some of you see the world as a pretty place maybe I don't. Oh and I know i do not spell correctly my grammar and punctuation is horrid, i am handicap and try to do my best, but i do sometimes come off sounding stupid, but for those that make the personal attacks, what is your excuse, for being stupid?

Rafe · 4 months ago

"NAACP which to me has become just as racist as any organization that is white only.."

Does the ignorance never stop? The NAACP has always been a multi-racial organization! It was founded by both blacks and whites. It's leaders have always been of all races. Ben Jealous, if you bothered to listen to video, is BIRACIAL!

You are too lazy to even read anything about NACCP, right? You have no idea what it has accomplished.

moran · 4 months ago

This is a red herring. John, you should really stop fanning the flames & promoting this "Black people are the most homophobic people in America" business. I've spoken with many a white gay man who recognize that asking the NAACP to take a position on this issue is ludicrous and only meant to divide. Don't fall for the okeydoke. All the classy commenters who are showing their true colors talking about how they no longer like Black people are falling for it hook line & sinker. People really need to be and should be smarter than that.

Name · 4 months ago

You know what, NO! These People are doing the same thing that was done to us. They need to be picketed, demonstrated against, disrupted, whatever it takes to end their Bigotry. They've left Black People in shambles, too - sold, completely, out, for a few measly dollars off their Corporate Master's table. They must be confronted just like any other homophobe would be.

Rafe · 4 months ago

John,

Next time, John, do your frakkin' homework:

From the Advocate:

February 25, 2009

NAACP Calls for Overturning of Prop. 8

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People announced support on Monday for California's supreme court to invalidate Proposition 8, the November ballot initiative that constitutionally banned same-sex marriage in California.

The civil rights group not only wants the court to overturn Prop. 8 -- they want California's legislature to go on record against Prop. 8 as well.

"The NAACP's mission is to help create a society where all Americans have equal protection and opportunity under the law," wrote NAACP CEO Benjamin Todd Jealous (pictured) in a letter to legislative leaders. "Our mission statement calls for the 'quality of rights of all persons.' Prop. 8 strips same-sex couples of a fundamental freedom, as defined by the California state supreme court. In so doing, it poses a serious threat to all Americans. Prop. 8 is a discriminatory, unprecedented change to the California constitution that, if allowed to stand, would undermine the very purpose of a constitution and courts -- assuring equal protection and opportunity for all and safeguarding minorities from the tyranny of the majority."

The California state conference of the NAACP has already filed briefs with the California supreme court in the legal challenge against the ballot initiative, which squeaked by with 52% of the vote. California's state court will begin hearing oral arguments to Prop. 8 on March 5.

"The NAACP has long opposed any proposal that would alter the federal or state constitutions for the purpose of excluding any groups or individuals from guarantees of equal protections," said NAACP chairman Julian Bond in a press release. "We urge the legislature to declare that Proposition 8 did not follow the proper protective process and should be overturned as an invalid alteration that vitiated crucial constitutional safeguards and fundamental American values, threatening civil rights and all vulnerable minorities."

Alexander Robinson, executive director of the National Black Justice Coalition, an LGBT rights organization, said that the letter represented forward movement for the NAACP. "It's consistent in that they have always opposed constitutional bans," he observed, "but I think that weighing in so clearly on an action that would have the effect of reinstituting marriage given that they still have not taken a position on gay marriage is a significant step forward." Robinson also anticipated that the national organization might get some pushback on the letter from local NAACP chapters. (Neal Broverman, Advocate.com)

dula · 4 months ago

The NAACP just added to the division of an already dysfunctional society. The Working Class will never be able to stand together to fight corporate injustice because half of them are Republicans who think any agenda that includes labor Rights is Socialist. Blacks and Latinos and Asians don't get along, and now the NAACP along with many others in the Black Community have made it clear that the GLBT Community cannot count on their support in our fight for Equal Rights...divided we fall.

Rafe · 4 months ago

Dula,

You don't even know what you're talking about.

This crap about "Blacks and Latinos and Asians don't get along" is based on what facts?

You obviously don't know anything about the NAACP. Instead of even doing a basic Google search, you blindly accept John's spiel without researching the NAACP or the positions of many of its leaders.

dula · 4 months ago

The NAACP is divided on this issue. Jesse Jackson said he hated that the Gay Community was "riding on the coattails of the Civil Rights Movement". Coretta Scott King had respect for the GLBT struggle but her own homophobic preacher daugher perpetuates hate against Gays in her own Church. So obviously there is a divide amongst the Black Community about Civil Rights for all...but you go ahead and pass the buck.

Rafe · 4 months ago

Nuance, John, nuance.

From Towleroad (you know, the most popular gay blog):

http://www.towleroad.com/2009/03/naacp-chair-ju...

NAACP Chairman Julian Bond: Gay Rights are Civil Rights:

The Human Rights Campaign posted National NAACP Chairman Julian Bond's speech from their fundraising dinner in Los Angeles over the weekend. It's quite powerful.

Said Bond: "When someone asks me, 'are gay rights civil rights?' my answer is always, 'Of course, they are.' Civil rights are positive legal prerogatives: the right to equal treatment before the law. These are the rights shared by everyone. There is no one in the United States who does not, or should not, enjoy or share in enjoying these rights. Gay and lesbian rights are not special rights in any way. It isn’t 'special' to be free from discrimination. It is an ordinary, universal entitlement of citizenship."

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq1MN1FYa4M&feat...

dula · 4 months ago

In regards to Michael Jackson:

It is strange how the Black Community laments the loss their shining star when he would still be alive today if he didn't have to make himself sick hiding the fact that he was Gay from their homophobia. Learn this lesson before you finish murdering another great Black Artist for her Gayness: Whitney Houston.

Rafe · 4 months ago

Dula,

You really are racist? Michael Jackson had issues because he was an abused child who suffered physical, emotional and psychological abuse from his father. That coupled with the overwhelming racism in our society greatly damaged him.

Newsflash! Jackson did not have his face carved and skin bleached because of supposed black homophobia. That was because of white racism!

As for Michael Jackson's supposed homosexuality, trying pass off homophobia amongst some African-Americans as being more harmful or impacting on Jackson than that he experienced from whites is ridiculous.

dula · 4 months ago

When your own father says he doesn't believe in homosexuals and is sickened whenever he sees them, what do you think that does to a Gay child? I wasn't referring to his plastic surgery when I said he made himself sick. I was referring to the fact that he pumped himself full of drugs so he didn't have to feel any emotional pain. Addicts are sensitive people...especially Gay ones who hate who they because of a homophobic society. All Communities have homophobia but I think it's a bit more pervasive in the Black and Latino Comm.

Butch1 · 4 months ago

Listen. Because someone disagrees with you doesn't make them a racist. That doesn't work anymore. If you can't debate without having to pull the race card out, you shouldn't debate a all. It's sounding more like it is you that has a problem with race, not John or Dula for that matter.

Bill_Perdue · 4 months ago

It appears that a lot of Jackson's need for pain relief, cosmetic surgeries and associated treatments were likely related to lupus and vitiglio.

http://www.bilerico.com/2009/07/the_questions_a...

Jophus · 4 months ago

I'm sorry I think it is sick that you have declared his and her sexuality. Who cares? I can understand about a Republican's sexuality, but these are just normal people. Lay off. Appreciate their work and don't get involved with their personal issues unless you know them. Definitely don't speculate.

dula · 4 months ago

Get a clue.

Jophus · 4 months ago

My ex's godmother had to deal with this sort of shit, that wasn't even her fault, and it had a majorly negative impact on her life. I know what I'm saying.

Get a life and quit trying to live other peoples'. It is spreading rumors and negativity, gossip. This kind of 'analysis' belongs in a sewing circle.

dula · 4 months ago

Michael Jackson and Whitney Houston were/are GAY. When you know many people who work in the Music Industry and live in Los Angeles these things are common knowledge. I know the woman who dated Kelly McGillis after Kelly slept with Whitney in her honey wagon...but I digress.

ndtovent · 4 months ago

why don't any African-Americans, especially the LGBT ones - ever publicly address and speak out against these organizations when they take a position like this?? Yes, I'm talking to "YOU people." Jesus.. When you will you all get it through your heads that WE were born this way. It is NOT a choice, for Christ's sake! YOu lgbt African-American LBGT's, we need your voices more than ever. Let's hear you!

Jophus · 4 months ago

I suspect that you are not an activist - at least in an urban area. The majority of activists I've encountered are black and hispanic. You are mad at them because they are not on tv? They are mad about that too, but proportionally they are more active than whites.

ndtovent · 4 months ago

and anOTHER thing (I ain't done, yet)... There were a LOT of white people with you during the freedoms rides and other demonstrations/marches in the 1960's who put their lives in just as much danger as you did, and many of those were lesbians and gay men. You would do well to remember that.

eric · 4 months ago

The NAACP needs to be reminded of Dr. King Jr. and Bayard Rustin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayard_Rustin

SnapnTurtle85 · 4 months ago

Dude is a bigot. Plain and simple. I hope he goes back on Bill Maher's show and Bill calls him on it.

bille · 4 months ago

If I remember history correctly the women suffragettes helped the black males get to vote, who in turn refused to help all women vote. If anything the black male establishment of the time mirrored its white brethren in not wanting women voters.

Now fast forward to today and the same dynamic seems to be in place except replace women with teh gay.

Most black religious types agree whole heartedly with the positions of the white theocrats when it comes to teh gay.

bille

DAB · 4 months ago

As a gay, white man, I have to say: I don't think the civil rights issues are the same. I think they're both civil rights issues -- or, rather, since that's very sloppy thinking to begin with, I think that both GLBT folk and black folk have legitimate civil rights issues with which they have to contend, but that doesn't make them all the same. The civil rights issues of native Americans and African-Americans aren't the same. The civil rights issues of undocumented immigrants and native Americans aren't the same. It's actually a stupid question to ask. And it's almost as stupid to ask "but are they at least equally important?" It all depends on who's being asked and whose ox is being gored that particular day. At the moment, the evidence would show that gay and lesbian people face more official, sanctioned discrimination in our society than black people do. That may make GLBT equality a more urgent issue for many of us. That doesn't lessen the African American struggle for equality and justice. By the same token, being an organization that has primarily fought for its position on racial discrimination throughout its history doesn't automatically mean they should take positions on all other forms of discrimination. What's the NAACP position on the rights of smokers? On public breast feeding? Actually, who cares what their position is on these or any other issue besides the ones on which they have some experience and authority to speak?

Would I have preferred Jealous to point-blank make a well-reasoned argument for gay marriage? Of course. But his example of his denomination (which is the same as mine, so I know whereof he speaks) in wrestling over this and other civil rights issues in its past in a similar way as the NAACP is wrestling with it is a lot more honest than a lock-step advocacy. I'm not fine with just cutting off the bigots, and certainly not with looking for reasons to label yet more people as bigots, not while they're still reasoning and debating and coming to terms with things themselves. We've made too much progress as a society to stop the music suddenly and force the guy who doesn't get to a chair fast enough out of the game.

dula · 4 months ago

Then Whites shouldn't have bothered to march with Blacks during the Civil Rights Movement (for Blacks only) because it wasn't their fight?

DAB · 4 months ago

No, of course not. Such marches were admirable and we (white liberals) look back with pride on our forbears who marched with black Americans for civil and voting rights.

What I am NOT saying, however, to use your example, is that every white person who did not march was therefore obviously racist. That's the big logical error implied in your question.

dula · 4 months ago

Your big error is to assume that just because Blacks may not understand your struggle that they aren't VOTING AGAINST YOUR CIVIL RIGHTS.

Ferdiad · 4 months ago

You, and others, are missing the point. It isn't whether or not the two issues are "the same." Certainly, they are not. No two civil rights issues are "the same." The bigger point, however, is that fighting for the rights of gay and lesbian people is a fight for "civil rights." It doesn't matter if they are the "same" and framing the issue that way is merely an attempt to allow an escape hatch for those that don't want to support the rights of others.

DAB · 4 months ago

Um, that's essentially what I said.

Jophus · 4 months ago

Discrimination will always exist, at least until the races mix to the point where everyone is multiracial. Lets not get sucked into a race/sexuality war here. We are better than that.

The issue here is that, in this recent televised interview, the NAACP has prioritized gays beneath the rest of their agenda. Whether they mean it or not is the question, and where our anger should be focused.

Wade · 4 months ago

His answer was absolutely appropriate. He personally said that he is pro marriage equality but that his organization's board has not agreed on a positino for the organization. How does this make him a bigot??? If anything, the criticism of him exposes a miopic view at best or racial bias at worst by too many white gay men. Do major gay organizations have official position on racial affirmative action or other civil rights issues that don't directly affect our community?

dula · 4 months ago

Gay orgs should have an official position on the Civil Rights of ALL minorities because discrimination anywhere affects all communities who are struggling for equality. There are many GLBTs Blacks so our Rights do "directly affect" the Black Community. Racist White Gays should be just as ashamed as homophobic Blacks. The only thing worse than a bigot is a hypocritical bigot.

Mateo1970 · 4 months ago

I am totally shocked by the breathtaking ignorance of some of these comments. HRC, NGLTF, GLAAD, and *every* other goddamn gay civil rights organization has had policies in support of African-American civil rights since their inception. That people aren't aware of this is beyond belief.

dula · 4 months ago

I assumed as much... should have said: If Gay groups don't have an official position then they should...
I have never heard of any Gay Org. belittling or debating the Rights of other minorities or trying to decide who has suffered more, the way that Black groups do. Like I said, the only thing worse that a bigot is a hypocritical bigot.

Mateo1970 · 4 months ago

Wade, your comments are stunning. Of course other civil rights organizations support African-Americans. If the head of NOW said "Well, there is much personal debate among our member about the Black ghetto lifestyle and their propensity towards felony imprisonment. We don't take a position on that" - there would be a HUGE outcry from the NAACP. The Jealous guy is a total pig and hypocrite to the extreme.

Mateo1970 · 4 months ago

WTF, he says his best friend is transgender, then he instantly says "he's gay" - as if they are the same. There is something very bizarre about his remarks.

SD_Dave · 4 months ago

Perhaps cd/tv?

hoppyndc · 4 months ago

I listened carefully to Ben Jealous's responses in the interview and honestly hear a person trying to convey the internal struggle of an organization that does not fully equate marriage equality with the race-based civil rights this country has gone through. I dare say he is sharing the majority view of African Americans in the US when he states that he does not view the two struggles as quite the same. Your characterization of his statement as a refusal to take a position is unfortunate and does nothing to foster constructive dialogue between two constituencies that are important to each other with critical differences that must be debated and negotiated. And to one of your commenters: a transgendered person can in fact have a gay orientation. You cannot be so clear as to suggest that he has misspoken. He actually knows more about this issue than he chose to disclose in this interview.

Outspoken1 · 4 months ago

IT is so sad to see a formerly brave organization act weak and hypocritical. The NAACP was never that strong discussing the issues of sexism, either. Like always - vote with your money. No contributions or kind words of support to the NAACP. Send support to PFLAG or other active gay rights organizations. Send a note to the NAACP why they lost your contribution!

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

On the contrary....he is more aligned w/historical civil rights than Coretta Scott King's thinking evolved into. The NAACP took it's cues from the church...as did most civil rights venues of the day.

I guarantee you....in the "early days" there were NO blacks who believed gay rights was akin to civil rights. And at the core of their belief is the religious identity. There were not mass beatings, lynchings, rapings and killings due to one's sexual orientation. There was not just suppression of rights...but oppression of even how one was to respond to whites--eyes cast down...cross the street if you're black and whites were on the sidewalk. There is not the "history" of denial w/gay rights as there was w/people of color.

It is the NAACP's prerogative to hold that stance. They may not wish to evolve in that area as much as GLAAD and other groups Specifically designed to stand up for gay rights as the NAACP was Specifically designed to stand up for "COLORED" oppression.

dula · 4 months ago

"There were not mass beatings, lynchings, rapings and killings due to one's sexual orientation"
Oh really? Then when did that start exactly? Your ignorance is stunning. You never saw a GLBT person "walk with eyes cast down" when faced with homophobic bullies? "History of denial", huh? Pathetic.

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

Wow...my ignorance? Perhaps this IS a reason why talks don't go further and there is a lack of understanding. Pathetic?

You're right. As much as I try to gain an understanding, perhaps it's best I remain "ignorant" and enjoy my life as a square peg in a round hole.

I saw no reason to attack YOU...but evidently you do not reciprocate. In another area further down you stated the NAACP was adding to the division....perhaps you should review your own posts. Mission Accomplished.

Amazing.

dula · 4 months ago

Ignorant: Not aware: uninformed, oblivious, unconscious.
What is offensive about the truth?

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

Your play on words is good. Been used against us for eons baby. Come again! This time...do it right.

dula · 4 months ago

Yeah Right, Blacks are only the victims of bigotry but never the perpetrators of it, huh?
Play on words? just looked up the word in the dictionary is all.

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

Wow...Blacks...Blacks....Blacks. Of course blacks can be bigots....just like any other ethnic group or any other person.

Manamongst_Hussein · 4 months ago

I'm sorry, but as a straight black man from the South, this disgusts me...these dumb, old-ass negros need to step aside. This s*&t should have been a no brainer 36 years ago. But what was I thinking, many of us African Americans have "issues" engrained mentally through generations...so trust me homophobia is hand in hand, with insecurities about hair quality and skin tone. You'll notice that some in the black community still have long discriminated on our own because of the latter two insecurities, and is currently still being done. You'll notice as well that all of our heads of the NAACP, including the current, and relatively new squirmy-ass Benjamin Todd Jealous is of extreme fairness of skin tone. And I don't know who does the nominating, but I do know it has been a concern in the past. So I feel for the gay dark skinned females out there the most...tis a sad day regardless.

It's ok to be physically fearful of one's health and well being. But to see pure political fear is disgusting...you'll never look at that person the same again.

daarchitek · 4 months ago

I think you are trying to find reasons to argue or think we are in a major disagreement. Maybe I should have said sexual preference rather than life style, sorry for that.

I don't know if this is similar but people are born with lots of differences but we don't create this mass "media culture" for it such as being gay, Don't attack what I say but try to see what I am trying to say rather than pick apart every word. people are born retarded, is that wrong, no its not, and its not bad, but we don't have this major "retarded driven lifestyle" they are still man and woman right. I do agree that the church has created a lot of problems in this issue, but I also think capitalism has all created a lot of complexities for the sake of money.

for example. a man dresses good, he wants to look good. he buys the nicest outfits he can find or afford, why is that a "gay thing" for a man to be concerned about his appearance? then we get force feed this marketing tool of metro sexual

don't attach but add to the conversation, if that's what you would like to have

dula · 4 months ago

People aren't voting to take Rights away from "retarded" individuals.

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

Daarchitek....I was told about the "lifestyle" comment myself. But Dula likes to be adversarial. He's not interested in a true dialogue.

Guess he's got "angry black man" snyndrome going on for gays. That's his right. But if you want to get understanding...he's not the one. Butch1 is good for gaining an insight. I always enjoy those posts as well as many others.

This one is a dead dialogue.

dula · 4 months ago

Pardon me for being so uppity.

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

LOL " uppity" is not the word I would use. More like condescening. But, do you baby.. It's your world...I'm here visiting.

dula · 4 months ago

Don't let LostHisMind deter you from debate. He was unable to get his homophobia justified here so he is lashing out.

LuZenMyMnd · 4 months ago

I'm a female Dula. There you go ASSuming. Also you ASSume I'm anti-gay because I do not understand.

I've been sitting back watching this communication issue If someone doesn't agree then you think they're AGAINST. It may be a lack of understanding. Or what about religious beliefs and convictions? You want to make it cut and dry....black and white...screaming that you should be understood....but not wishing to extend that same understanding to others.

As I've stated before....the absence of one emotion does not necessarily equate the opposite. Sometimes there is confusion....and sometimes people stand on what they believe is principal and/or godly convictions. Maybe the two won't meet in the middle. But there is a place for a dialogue that is not filled w/name calling, insinuations...ASSumptions and bullying.

I have enjoyed the discourse...although one I cannot take seriously by you.

dula · 4 months ago

What about religious beliefs or convictions? Using religion to justify your ignorance is tired and cliched. Racist Whites did the same thing to you(quoting Bible verses like: "be kind to your slaves" in order to justify racism). Personal religious beliefs should not dictate laws or the Rights of others in the US because we were not intended to be a Theocracy. What you don't have the insight to understand is that my impatience with you is based on the fact that someone of color, who marched in Selma no less, is doing to another minority what was done to you...at least legally. You may justify it in whatever ways that allow you to sleep at night, just like any racist would, but in the end, the suffering you've endured as a result of racism was not severe enough for you to wish to end the cycle of discrimination. Many in the Black Community are now the perpetrators of discrimination in regards to GLBTs...and are too cowardly to cop to it. The same can be said for Jewish Israelis who are doing to the Palestinians what Hitler did to them (forcing them to live in ghetto poverty). Apparently, Slavery/Jim Crow Laws and The Holocaust were not enough for human beings to finally "get it"...Sad.

Moncusa · 4 months ago

Whatever. The NAACP once had good purpose, but it's kind of an irrelevant group now. Look how unsuccessful they've been with curbing the murder rate amongst young African American males. Nobody listens to them.

Clarence Brown · 4 months ago

Over and over again the Democratic Party has insisted that in our society there can be no haven for discrimination. Is this not the same party which has championed the cause of every minority which has come before us? Is this not the same party which has sought to include women on an equal footing? Is this not the same party which has led the battle for civil rights for black Americans?

Would you ask me how I'd dare to compare the civil rights struggle with the struggle for lesbian and gay rights? I can compare, and I do compare them. I know what it means to be called a (n-word). I know what it means to be called a (f-word). And I can sum up the difference in one word: none.

Bigotry is bigotry. I have been booed before. Discrimination is discrimination. It hurts just as much. It dishonors our way of life just as much, and it betrays a common lack of understanding, fairness and compassion.

I know I am an American. I know not because of my birth certificate, but because when Old Glory is unfurled and the Anthem is played, my heart is warmed and my eyes are watered. I love this country as much as anyone in this hall. I am thankful in my prayers for the privilege of being a citizen of this nation.

I believe that there is no power on this earth that can defeat the American people as long as we remain true to the values which have made us great.

Equal justice, fair play and compassion are the true sources of our greatness. I shudder to contemplate how we waste the energy and devotion of more than 20 million lesbian and gay Americans who remain shackled by degradation and isolation. And I am astonished by the longing and pleading of my gay brothers and sisters whose faith in this Party, in this country, and the democratic process has not been defeated, and will not be defeated by the falsehoods and fears of all those who would oppress us.

Like them, I have faith in this nation and in its people, and in this Party. I believe that when the American people have heard the facts, when they have seen us as we truly are, then they will insist that we not be abandoned to the prejudices and the caprices of the ignorant.

Melvin Boozer (openly gay VP candidate 1980)
-Addressing the Democractic Convention

As a Black gay man, I couldnt have said it better myself