AMERICAblog: New French government report declares Mormons a cult
mirth
· 6 months ago
To the Mormon trolls now crawling these threads all atwitter that we are not accurately describing their theology as written in their numerous religious texts...
Actions speak louder than words.
and
What IS is.
and
Pffffffffffft
and
Good on the French.
ctrandrm
· 6 months ago
Whatever mirth.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Uh? Please explicate. And stand completely on the first floor. No leaving one foot in the damp, dark basement with the statues of the naked yaks.....
Ugh.
Michael
· 6 months ago
I watched an anti-gay marriage commercial on msnbc in NYC last night. The haters are firing up the rhetoric in NY to fight the proposed legislation. Calling for people to call their state senators to signal their opposition to marriage equality. The commercial was full of lies about how gay marriage will have an effect on schooling and religious institutions. It's time to organize a fight in NY.
r
· 6 months ago
all religions are cults. singling out minority ones like scientology, mormonism, et. al. is bigotry and shouldnt be celebrated at all.
jixter
· 6 months ago
I'm sure that the Unitarians will be getting their share when they decide to attack gay people like the Mormons have, "r"; in fact, I'll guarantee it. Meanwhile, fair is fair and, as Don Rumsfeld once said: "you work with the bigoted, minority cult you have, not the bigoted, minority cult you want."
Or something like that.
Poor, poor Mormons; more sinned against than sinning.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
More sinned against? When has self-defense and equal force been a sin? And the Unitarians? They don't have a problem with anyone, so it seems. For them EVERYONE goes to heaven (if exist), even kitties and snakes.
Ugh.
jixter
· 6 months ago
It's called snark, UncleBucky!
Relax, will 'ya?
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
{en serio} True. I usually put snark in snark tags. You are right. Can we live in peace after I apologize? {/en serio} {snark} nada. {/snark}
Ugh.
jixter
· 6 months ago
We can live in peace anytime. No need to apologize, UncleBucky. Thank you for offering, though.
judybrowni
· 6 months ago
WARNING: Atheist with a chip on shoulder.
Really, you're not helping: cults can be more dangerous than other religions, both to the convert and the rest of us trying to keep our lives out of the control of the cult.
I'm not crazy about any organized religion, either, they all have their drawbacks, either now or more egregiously in the past.
However, I've seen the damage both Scientology and Mormonism has done first hand. (And Catholicism, too -- although that's not officially a cult, no matter what you aver.)
You ain't helping by equating all religions with cults, it's a false equivalency and gives the cults cover.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Exactly. What cultists like David Koresh, Jim Jones, Joey Smif, L. Ron, etc. want is to blend in with the rest.
They are parasites, chameleons, and killers.
Ugh.
Hermes
· 6 months ago
The 20th century was loaded with examples of white-knuckled authoritarian groups masquerading as religious sects. They caused much harm. Some continue to do so.
_Nobody_ gets a free pass because they anoint themselves a religion, regardless of whether the dubious notion that "all religions are cults" is accepted or not.
Those malefactors who seek cover under the guise of "religion" should be ready for endless scrutiny; if you can't handle it, the solution should be obvious.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
nice nick, r, but I thought it was taken.
But seriously not all faiths. If you take Jesus out of Christianity and focus mainly on the man, you have a businessman who realized that not everyone was privileged. It got so to him, after he read some of the contemporary documents in the commentaries that something was not "kosher" with the Jewish faith as it currently stood.
So he started to give parties, talk to people and find out where the common man was on all of this Pharisee nonsense (read Fundies, Mormons, Evangelicals, etc.). He established that something needed "righting" and he started the equivalent of a blog. There were thousands of subscribers, some of whom wrote their own "blogs" and held their own conversations.
But the Judean FauxNoise got the skinny on him and conspired to close him down. By the time of Constantine and Theodosius with their own version of Dobson/Fallwell+/Robertons, Athanasius, they shut down all the blogs, killed the subscribers and started the Catholic religion. And every century or so, there was a man bold enough to try it again. The 19th Century's golden boy was Joey Smif, 20th Century is L. Ron, and on and on... And dat's the truth!
Ugh.
DrWoody
· 6 months ago
We get Mormon missionaries in my neighborhood all the time. I tell 'em I'll listen to 'em, if they can explain the Mountain Meadow Massacre (circa 1865) to me.
They can't, so i don't...
Õ¿Õ
· 6 months ago
I've had them in my neighborhood before, we talked and I questioned them about the existence of a god before but after what they've done recently, I'll push them away from my front door.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Ask them how many Mormons were massacred. They will lie or obfuscate. Watch them squirm as you cite various passages from your 1830 facsimile of the BOM...
Hehe....
Ugh.
samiinh
· 6 months ago
Ironically, the Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred on Sept. 11, 1857, and was ordered and condoned by Brigham Young. The wagon train's cattle was just too tempting not to keep them.
Ben Dover
· 6 months ago
Someone should run endless info-commercials touting the Book of Mormon as the true, final word on all things xtian. Especially how they will baptize everyone's dead relatives into the Mormon "faith" to save them from the fiery flames of hell.
These info-commercials would be wonderfully received, especially in the South.
Ben Dover
· 6 months ago
The Mormon Cult is an extreme danger to decent, traditional American family values.
ctrandrm
· 6 months ago
What are your American family values Ben Dover, so I do not violate them by accident? Give me a break. It is the lack of morals in our society that is destroying American families, not Latter-day Saints. I think even other religions who think we are cult would disagree with you.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
"We" <--- Mormon blog minder!
Lack of morals? What did they cause? Katrina? WTC attacks? Divorces? Wife-beating? Child-beating? Embezzlement? Drunken one-night stands with prostitutes?
You say gay people caused this? Did you ever study the scientific method? Did you ever REALLY delve into logic?
Ugh.
Ruttle
· 6 months ago
This is great to hear. Now, if we can finally get people to acknowledge that christian beliefs are just as far out in left field, we will be well on the way to making some progress against religion. Scientologists believe in an intergalactic warlord and mormons have magic underwear. How are either of those claims more outlandish than transubstantiation or virgin birth, or the trinity, or raising the dead? Answer: They are all ridiculous.
woodroad34
· 6 months ago
Bill Maher refers to christianity as the cult of the jewish zombie.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Christian as cult, yes. Oh, yes. It started with the murder of about 5000 Arians in a sports arena in the 4th century. It continued with Innocent III killing innocents, the Holy (hah) Inquisition boiling kids in oil and the Crusaders impaling Muslims in Jerusalem.
Jesus, however, in the most elegant of summaries is NOT a cult. He is only, like many other prophets and poets, the teller of truth.
Ugh.
ann
· 6 months ago
More hate and anti-Mormon bigotry. For all the preaching about tolerance apparently anyone who disagrees with the gaystapo are not worthy of anything but lies and defamation. Your true colors are showing and there ain't no rainbow nowhere.
Chrissy
· 5 months ago
Sorry Ann, but telling the truth about your beliefs is not bigotry. Bigotry is deciding that rights gained by a certain segment of the population are against your religion and then funding a campaign to remove those rights.
Mormons used to have the luxury of just a few people being vocally against them. Now they have 2.5% of the population plus their allies and friends against them. The more people that tell others about your whacky beliefs, the less people will be inclined to join your church.
John, keep exposing the mormons whacky beliefs, they hate when their history that they work so hard to hide comes out into the light. Talk about the fact that Joseph Smith created polygamy to have sex with other men's wives. Or the fact that Joseph Smith in his 30s married girls as young as 14. Or the fact that Joseph Fielding Smith, another of their "prophets" said their were men living on the moon. Or the fact that every prophet since Joseph has said the mormons are going to takeover the government of the USA.
An_American_Karol
· 6 months ago
It won't be so easy to hide this cult's involvement with trying to stop civil rights for all Americans in California next time it comes up for vote. This cult thinks it got bad press after its involvement in passing prop 8. Wait until it sticks it's fancy pants into California's elections again. We'll be ready for it. Mainstream religion? I don't think so.
ctrandrm
· 6 months ago
Same-sex marriage advocates are fond of playing the homophobic card to demonize those who disagree with them, but saying if you do not support gay marriage then that makes you a bigot is as silly as saying that if you are pro-life and against prostitution, then you hate women. Mormons do not hate gays, I have a gay uncle and I do not hate him. This is about protecting the institution of marriage, not hate. Is it inequality when everyone can marry the opposite sex while no one can marry the same-sex and the same laws apply to all? I wonder if these same people would be willing to fight to legalize polygamy as well and remind people of the separation of church and state then, because I doubt it. Did it ever occur to people that maybe most Americans feel that same-sex marriage is wrong? No state has approved of same-sex marriage when the American public, instead of courts or legislators, have voted on the issue.
samiinh
· 6 months ago
Can you tell us what you are protecting marriage from? And why must it be based on sex organs? Oh, that's right, you all need three wives in order to get your own planet. It's all about you and your greed.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
WARNING. Above post by ctrankrm is from a Mormon blog minder. Note the mud in the water and the smoke and mirrors. Warning Will Robinson, Mormon bot on high gain.
Ugh.
An_American_Karol
· 6 months ago
There was a time when most Americans thought black shouldn't vote, or white and blacks should not marry, or Native Americans needed to be exterminated... What's your point?
judybrowni
· 6 months ago
"Wikipedia has banned the Church of Scientology from editing any articles. It’s a punishment for repeated and deceptive editing of articles related to the controversial religion. The landmark ruling comes from the inner circle of a site that prides itself on being open and inclusive."
"Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith's denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by "anti-Mormons" and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley's dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism's history seems replete with examples of lying."
"Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult."
"Lying for the lord" is part of Mormonism's larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators. "
samiinh
· 6 months ago
It's called, The Ends Justify the Means. They got this from their Masonic connections. I don't know if it happens today, but in Mormon history, they used this to rationalize the murder of many as acts of blood atonement. There were mercenaries who worked for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
ctrandrm
· 6 months ago
I see, so I am to believe that you are the possessor of absolute truth when it comes to Mormon doctrine and all Latter-day Saints are a bunch of liars. It has been my experience that those who shout liar, liar, liar are often liars themselves, because they assume that since they cannot tell the truth, then nobody can. Excommunicated members are often like this as well. They accuse the church of wrongdoing, when they themselves were guilty of it in the first place. Either someone offended them or they broke a serious commandment and remained unrepentant. So many times it was just too hard for them to leave their old lives behind and they go back to drinking, gambling, immorality, or whatever vices they gave up before they were baptized. In their anger, they then turn upon those whom they once loved. There is a simple reason for this. Once you enjoy the presence of the Holy Ghost and lose it because of sin, your heart becomes bitter and filled with spirit of the devil. If this happens, then you will seek the destruction of Latter-day Saints and be filled with hate for them. Perhaps you will not believe me. I see it all the time on blogs like these. Former members are not content to pick up their old lives and move on, they try to fill the emptiness in their heart with a purpose and seek to try to bring the their former church down rationalizing that they were wronged first. This was partially explained by Christ when he said in Luke 11:21-26. “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils. He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth. When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.”
Ben Dover
· 6 months ago
This will at least protect French civil liberties from being destroyed by the Mormon Cult, as the Cult has done here.
Now THAT'S national security!
aratina
· 6 months ago
It's always fun to make fun of Scientology, but is it really any crazier than any of the various Christian denominations? No, it isn't. In that respect, I think the French government got it completely wrong and are doing nothing more than bullying a different religion based on the privilege Christianity has enjoyed for millennia in Europe. If Scientology is a cult, so is Roman Catholicism.
Robster
· 6 months ago
All religious are pretty much equally ridiculous, but that isn't what makes them cults. Cults have several defining characteristics that separate them from religion. One is a deceptive nature. Second is rigid control over members. Third is separation from non members. Fourth, mandated financial support from members.
Scientology fits all of these. Mormonism fits all of these at the start, but now three is gone and two is weakening.
nicho
· 6 months ago
Not to mention secret ceremonies. Catholics and other Christians don't have secret ceremonies. But the Mormons do. Not even all Mormons can take part. You have to be specially tagged by your local bishop to go through the exceedingly weird temple ceremonies -- where you have to take a secrecy oath and agree to be murdered if you reveal the secret oath, secret hand signals or the secret mumbo jumbo like "Pay-Lay-Ale."
That is one of the main things that sets Mormons apart as a cult -- and a rather bizarre cult at that.
In fact, Mormon temples should be taxed because they are not open to all members of the faith and, as such, are not a church.
samiinh
· 6 months ago
Secret ceremonies stolen from the Masons.
aratina
· 6 months ago
And Roman Catholicism? It fits all four of them, too. There is no way France would declare Roman Catholicism to be a cult.
nicho
· 6 months ago
Roman Catholicism doesn't fit any of them, but thanks for playing.
Robster
· 6 months ago
Not quite. All of RC's beliefs are up front and out in the open, but they have lied a lot about abuse. RCs are not rigidly controlled. Ask any random RC about birth control, and most will admit to not following the leadership. If you leave the church, you can continue to spend time with your RC family. You don't have to donate, but it is strongly suggested.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Great distinctions. Also, if you happen to come out to your RC relatives, the Church is not at the door giving your relatives instructions about how to shun you. True, many RC's are still following the Holy Inquisition, and there is a growing cult of Opus Dei, but most RC people would be welcome at one of Jesus's parties. And they would bring the GOOD wine, not some stale grape juice. ;-)
Ugh.
ctrandrm
· 6 months ago
As a Latter-day Saint, I would strongly disagree with you. We are not forced to do anything and there is no deception. Yes, we have temple ceremonies that are not openly discussed because they are considered sacred, but do you think everything important should be openly discussed in the public and nothing kept confidential, because if you do you can go ahead and type your personal info anytime you want to. To prove my point that they are not discussed because they are sacred, not secret, I would point out that the cat is already out of the bag. You can find it all on the internet where like-minded critics and bigots mock our beliefs just for being different from them. We still do not openly discuss the ceremonies outside of the temple, not even among ourselves, because they did not stop being sacred when they were plastered all over the internet. Ever heard of the expression, there is nothing sacred anymore? That is the world we live in today.
samiinh
· 6 months ago
Aren't you forced to wear your secret underwear at all times? Even during sex?
samiinh
· 6 months ago
There was nothing ever scared about Mormonism from the start...it was all a big con by a low-life con-man named Joseph Smith, for his own greed, sexual desires, and ego. YOU were lied to and you won't admit it.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Oh look the Mormon Blog Minders are coming out of the basements...
Uh-huh. Please publish, if you will, your personal experiences in doing "temple work". Talk to us about magic underwear and the power it gives you.
Folks, this will not happen, because he is forbidden by his authorities to say a word. For IF a Mormon with a good recommend does that, he never stays a good Mormon for long, and he is discredited, mocked and intimidated. Furthermore, he will never see his family again. So what our little Mormon blog minder is saying here is pretty much pure rubbish.
Ugh.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
"there is nothing sacred..."
No, these cult practices are not sacred. They are a weird blend of Joey Smif's personality cult and science fiction.
Although I must say, I HAVE read some science fiction that has approached the sacred in how it deals with man's relationship with the Divine.
Golub is a joke, however. And I have read the original corpus cover to cover. Nice of that missionary to reach in his backpack for it lo those many years. But I never EVER read that certain passage out loud. I ain't no fool.
Ugh.
judybrowni
· 6 months ago
Unfortunately, Scientology is "crazier", and more cult-like, at least these days, than Christian sects.
Don't have time to go into it here, but a simple google search will bring up plenty.
aratina
· 6 months ago
For some reason I missed the headline about the Mormons being a new cult, not Scientology. That is even more hypocritical than saying Scientology is a cult while pretending that Christianity is just fine. But I don't disagree about Scientology or the LDS Church being crazy, it's just that there are a multitude of Christian denominations out there that operate similarly as businesses targeting the gullible, as institutions of miseducation and blind ignorance, or as highly exclusionary hate groups that cause just as much trouble in society and yet get protected status from more moderate and even liberal religious organizations worldwide.
I guess I'm trying to say, so what if Mormons are a cult? Does that make Christians in France feel better about themselves for believing the things they believe? Does it make them feel better when they shell out money to their church? Does it make them feel better when they bring in a new convert? Does it make them feel better when they choose to believe in angels, Jesus, or heaven? Where does the bigotry end?
nicho
· 6 months ago
A lot of nonsense here, except for the distinction you make between Mormons and Christians. Mormons are not Christians -- not even close -- which is something that needs to be driven home with Christians who want to snuggle up to the Mormons. They are a weird polytheistic cult with bizarre cosmological beliefs -- not far from the Heaven's Gate people.
ctrandrm
· 6 months ago
Critics often say that “Mormons” are a cult, but members of the church are honestly baffled by this. The church itself is named after Christ and its members worship Him as well as follow His teachings contained in the Bible. Are there doctrinal differences between Latter-day Saints and other churches? Of course there are. All Christian churches disagree on some points of doctrine; otherwise, there wouldn’t be so many different churches. Yet this is reason enough for the critics who feel that if Latter-day Saints do not believe exactly as they do, then they cannot be Christians
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
WARNING. Above post from ctrankrm is from a Mormon blog minder. Note the mud in the water and the smoke in front of the mirrors?
Ugh.
judybrowni
· 6 months ago
Once warned is twice shy.
If just one person hesitates joining the Mormon cult, over, say, the Methodists (if they have Methodists in France), at least that one person's life has less a chance of being ruined in the ways the Mormon cult has for ruining lives.
Also one less salary being use to fund to hate crimes.
I doubt the French proclaiming the Mormons a cult are doing it simply to stroke their egos -- yes, we get your point that you think all religion is silly and troublesome -- but the French government is performing a public service in warning French citizens away from a religion which acts much more like dangerous cult, than other religions, at this time.
Erzulie la flambeau
· 6 months ago
Religious Toleration
Õ¿Õ
· 6 months ago
I don't understand how people glom on to a religion or a politician like their life depended on it. Like the Obamabots and Hillarybots before. Like Bush, when he was Dear Leader to the wingnuts or their wingnut ideology. I think it shows a weakness and character flaw with some people. I mean, Obama's cool as shit and I dig the democratic ideals which are obviously far better to the people and the planet but I don't fixate over it.
DrWoody
· 6 months ago
Religion exists to provide people with purpose they cannot find in their own lives
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Bingo. And all the religious leaders, such as Koresh, Joey Smif, and L. Ron, and on into the future had/have/will have a fundamental failure of self-image that requires them to have a coterie of fauning idiots with electrodes in their necks.
Ugh.
OKBlue
· 6 months ago
You know, I just can't get worked up over their "forcibly baptizing" anybody. It's not as if it actually does something to the souls of the dead, except in their minds. If it makes them feel better, I don't care. Sure, it isn't too respectful of the religious views of the deceased, but it also doesn't impact or change those views in the slightest. It's like when radical fundamentalist Christians say, "I'll pray for you" when they disagree with you on something. Fine. Their view of God is not mine, and so it doesn't even seem real.
judybrowni
· 6 months ago
The point is, it's of a piece with the Mormon attempt to control state governments, and their fight to deny gay civil rights (and 30 years ago, to deny women civil rights.)
And lying about it all, one way or another.
it may not be important to me or you that Mormons "baptize the dead" of other religions, but it is certainly an affront to those who worship differently.
But again, it's part of the chain of evidence of Mormons attempting to force their religious beliefs on others.
Hermes
· 6 months ago
Agreed, sane people place no value in the posthumous import of mormon baptism for the dead (or anything else mormon for that matter).
But the utility of mormon baptism for the dead is actually found among the living membership: wherein a naive, credulous mindset is convinced that he/she has found "the one true church" and must extend membership to all of humanity, living or dead.
Some find it obnoxious that the names of deceased family members are used as a faith-enmeshment tool (applied to the living) by a cult.
Mormon arrogance is immune to self-reflection & criticism, hence mormons will give no consideration to the feelings of family members. Mormon faith demands constant, continuous reinforcement - and using harvested names and idiotic postmortem "baptisms" is just part of the toolkit.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Well, I do not object for my part, but for the part of others who are shocked and saddened that this cult could speak the name of their relative, Aunty Bernice or Uncle Chester, as they are dressed in some odd semi-revealing nightshirt in a dark, dank basement next to some monument with naked yaks supporting a baptismal font.
Gives me the creepies. Ick ICK I C K !!!!
Ugh.
RitornaVincitor
· 6 months ago
When the Mormons got behind prop 8 it struck me as a move that could backfire. Apparently it struck them the same way, because we read that way back in the planning stages the higher-ups in the LDS church decided to approach the Catholic Church to "spearhead" the drive to protect marriage because they didn't want the LDS to be seen as spearheading the movement. They have always been very sensitive to criticism of being "cultish" as well as discussion of their polygamist past and accusations of hypocrisy on marriage.
It seems to me that the Prop 8 did backfire for the Mormons, despite its narrow win. Far more than the Catholics, the Mormons were seen as being the force behind the mean-spirited Prop 8. And new we read of an agency of the French government calling Mormonism a cult.
It should be really interesting to see how much the Mormons want to push the fight against the California ballot measure next year to repeal Prop 8. How much more exposure do they want? How much more attention the more bizarre tenets of their beliefs do they want? How much more exposure does their membership want now that they are aware that contributions to political campaigns are public record?
Õ¿Õ
· 6 months ago
They seem like they have a longterm agenda here in the US and the rest of the world.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Seem?
No. It is cut in marble (they don't use sandstone fer anything, they go for the best).
The current plan is Mitzie. When he flops again, they will find another handsome robot boy.
Remember, the goal is to have a chip implanted in every neck so that you can NEVER EVER be an apostate to their cruel cult. Once you are in, the mere thought of going over the wall will produce severe pains and artificial feelings of regret immediately.
We now have the technology. And since Cheney was president, we had the will.
Ugh.
shell
· 6 months ago
"discussion of their polygamist past"
I had a friend -- a coworker -- years ago, who was a Mormon. She became a Mormon at age 17. Her husband was born one. Because of this, maybe she isn't QUITE as "Mormon" as he is, but she is definitely a Mormon in Good Standing. Married in the temple, etc.
I will never forget what she told me once. I asked her about polygamy and she said it BOTHERED HER. I asked why, since that seemed to be in the past. She told me she asked her husband what would happen if an elder (or whatever they're called -- church leader) told him to take multiple wives. He said he probably would. She was floored.
And they aren't ignorant rednecks. He is a lawyer and she has a bachelor degree -- they have plenty of money -- that they earned themselves, by the way -- it wasn't inherited.
How can this NOT be a cult if he would actually do this -- or even THINK about it? Family values, my ass.
Richard Packham
· 6 months ago
Calm down, folks!
I just read the 200-page report (well, I skimmed it and searched for "mormon" I do read French, not well, but pretty well).
First of all it is the 2008 annual report, not new.
It does NOT declare any movement as a "cult."
It mentions "Mormon" only three times:
Page 88-89: A Finnish support group for cult members in Finland lists Mormons as a cult.
Page 89: It refers to a private and anonymous website by an Ex-Mormon as providiing information. It does not give a link, but probably refers to the Finnish website at www.mormonismi.net
Page 93: It summarizes the list of cults acknowledged to be present in Cyprus by the government of Cyprus, and Mormons is among them.
THAT'S ALL!
John Aravosis
· 6 months ago
Nice try. If you looked at the footnotes, you'd see that the report includes articles published in March of 2009. That would be two months ago. So the report was just published. (As an aside, yes the report is dated 2008. That's because it's the report for what happened in 2008. Per se it can't be published until 2009, since 2008 didn't end until December 31, 2008.)
Second, it's a report about cults in Europe. A report by a French governmental body. It includes the Mormons, along with Satanists, Scientologists and Moonies. It doesn't include Catholics, Baptists, Greek Orthodox, Jews or any other religion. So what we know is that a French governmental report is treating the Mormons as a cult, and the report is at most 2 months old. That's exactly what I reported.
Lying for the Lord are we?
Hermes
· 6 months ago
"Lying for the Lord are we?"
Pretty humorous, if you know Mr. Packham.
He may have produced a flawed translation/interpretation, but this is not a man who lies [period], let alone lies for a cult.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
know what sockpupplets are? ;-) One never knows. I don't trust anyone even appearing to be a Mormon apologist. He had better have self-identified at the head of his post, and been darn sure to mention his site.
Perhaps this Mr. Packham is authentic. I would prefer to have my housemate check the french. Not only does he know french, but he knows about french-kissing. And I know that no Mormon sockpupplet could authentically give witness to that little joy of life.
Ugh.
Hermes
· 6 months ago
Sounds like a novel concept, UncleBucky: let's get someone who actually _speaks_ French to read the document.
Had I been a more attentive student, it coulda been me :(
Richard Packham
· 6 months ago
Thanks for the correction. I did not look at the footnotes.
Whether the report is only two months old is not relevant to my main objection: the report mentions Mormons ONLY in connection with their being labeled as "cults" in other countries. I think it is misleading to say that the French government, by reporting that fact, is endorsing that label.
For the record, I do consider Mormonism to be a cult.
I also am uncomfortable with any government that presumes to approve or disapprove of any religion or non-religion. The next group to be banned or demonized might be yours (or mine).
Õ¿Õ
· 6 months ago
You're a cult member. That's all.
Measure
· 6 months ago
Richard Packham is no cult member. He is one of the more famous critics of the Mormon church. I think he's just calling for a realistic interpretation of the source documents here...
Robster
· 6 months ago
What assurance do we have that this is the real Packham?
Measure
· 6 months ago
That is a fair point. I have emailed Packham to check, but no response yet.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Then in the original post, he oughta cite and give his credentials. Not doing so, he is a fool. But as written below, how do we KNOW he is the real mccoy?
Ugh.
Richard Packham
· 6 months ago
I am an ex-Mormon, founder and past president of the Exmormon Foundation. I found this item because it was reported with this link on the "Recovery From Mormonism" discussion board, where I regularly post. I made this identical post there, where my e-mail address is also given. Or Google me or "Recovery From Mormonism"
Combatting the effects of Mormonism is not helped by misrepresenting news items such as this French report.
If you want separate confirmation of my identity, e-mail me: packham@teleport.com
Measure
· 6 months ago
And that's what I get for not being on RFM 24/7. I could have linked to that as confirmation. Oh well.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
"Nothing going on here folks. Nothing to see..."
This one reads a little French because s/he was badly trained in the Mormon language school. Thing is, if you don't recognize the words, you can't read them. "Cult" is not in the Mormon French glossary. Hah.
Ugh.
Õ¿Õ
· 6 months ago
Why does there have to be a religious belief system and an afterlife? Why can't when you die, that's it? You lived a good productive life, had fun and then your time is over. That's how it's worked for billions of years on this planet.
Mr.
· 6 months ago
There is absolutely nothing new about this report, I served a mission there during the mid nineties and the French government was still saying the same thing. Everybody knows how the French feel about religions in general and I know from personal experience that they think Americans are a bunch of religious nuts to begin with, so what is the big deal about this report? Bigots are fond of playing the cult card to justify their hate towards Mormons but their copy and paste arguments are as old as dirt and just as lame.
shell
· 6 months ago
"...Americans are a bunch of religious nuts..."
Viva la France!
I just love that country.
Now Mr., you can have your idea of whatever happens after you die, but the point is: STAY OUT OF EVERYONE ELSE'S LIFE!
I have always been of the mindset "Live and let live." Whatever gets you through the night. Some are truly frightened all the time and NEED religion. So be it. But leave the rest of us non-scaredy-cats alone.
judybrowni
· 6 months ago
WARNING: Robo mormon bot troll.
judybrowni
· 6 months ago
But to answer your disengenuous post: the French government has consistently termed Mormonism a cult for a decade or more -- perhaps because Mormonism has acted like a cult for at least that period of time in France.
Every French citizen feels the same way about religion? Unlikely, but certainly likely that those you've encountered consider you a religious nut. Thanks for fucking up the French for the rest of non-nuts.
In this case, the bigot is calling the kettle black -- Mormons have actively acted as bigots against women, blacks and gays in recent memory.
(For instance, their lying campaigns against the ERA and for Prop H8. Also: Mormons refused to allow blacks to became church members until they were threatened with losing their tax-exempt status in the 1970s.)
By warning their citizens of the danger of your cult, the French are less bigots than sharp observers of Mormon practice.
Unfortunately, you can't take any posting from a Mormon at their word. See citations further down the thread about Lying for the Lord, the Mormon religious practice that encourages Mormons to break the commandment against bearing false witness.
That's right, a cult that encourages it's members to lie. Niiiiice.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
Perfect. Complete. Exact. :D
Cheers!
mark
· 6 months ago
Lets see no smoking, no drinking alcohol or coffee, and abstaining from sex outside marriage...and mormons are suprised they aren't a hit in France?
not the brightest cult...are ya?
shell
· 6 months ago
Oh! I forgot the Mormons and their no-caffeine law! When I first got out of college, I worked at a company that had a Mormon vice president. He worked hard -- about 15 hours a day. (Probably to get away from his 11 kids!) Anyway, he was swerving on the road one night, and was stopped by a cop. Of course, the blood-alcohol test was negative, but brought up the point -- which is more dangerous? Driving drunk, or driving-while-asleep?
Stupid Mormons.
jixter
· 6 months ago
Just a shout-out to you, judybrowni!
I've been enjoying your postings on this topic and want you to know that I think you're wonderful!
Keep up your good work - and thank you for it!
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
So, this is the pot calling the kettle black: "bigot"...
Another Mormon blog minder. They have a call center dedicated to the correcting of Progressive blogs. They get all their talking points, all their scripts and all their retorts like above through an electrode in the back of their necks which is always ON. Alá Sirens of Titan, a parallel story to the account of Golub.
Ugh.
mirth
· 6 months ago
Our mormon blog minders like to make blanket statements, such as mormons love Gays, as if there is only one kind of mormon and they think and act the same. Noooo. There are at least:
This isn't meant to be humorous, and as an ex-mormon I can vouch the truth of it.
EdA
· 6 months ago
Sorry, John, much as I wish I could agree with you, this report does not actually classify the Mormons as a "cult." It simply refers to them, and to Scientologists and Jehovah's Witnesses and various other groups as being "derives sectaire," which seems to get translated as "sectarian drift" (which doesn't seem to make a lot of sense) or perhaps (my judgement) "religious aberrations." The report does, however, provide significant information as to where Mormons can find recovery groups in various European countries.
I have no idea why some poster decided to pick on Unitarians. If there is one faith tradition involving Jesus that as opposite to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as possible, that is the Unitarian Universalist tradition.
Hermes
· 6 months ago
I wonder if a better translation might be "derived sect" - meaning a schismatic sect (or a "chip off the old orthodoxy")?
Mormons don't see themselves that way (they have the "Twoo" religion; everyone else having something other). How peculiar that no other belief system agrees with the LDS view that locates mormonism at the summit of authentic religion. ----------------
Fifi
· 6 months ago
No. "Dérives sectaires" means "cultish drift".
There's a funny semantic inversion between French and English on secte / sect vs. culte / cult. The neutral term in one language is the negative in the other.
UncleBucky
· 6 months ago
EdA, you could not be more correct about the Unitarians. They would admit that all creatures go to heaven, but they don't require there to be one. ;-)
All Comments
Actions speak louder than words.
and
What IS is.
and
Pffffffffffft
and
Good on the French.
Ugh.
Or something like that.
Poor, poor Mormons; more sinned against than sinning.
Ugh.
Relax, will 'ya?
True. I usually put snark in snark tags. You are right. Can we live in peace after I apologize?
{/en serio}
{snark}
nada.
{/snark}
Ugh.
Really, you're not helping: cults can be more dangerous than other religions, both to the convert and the rest of us trying to keep our lives out of the control of the cult.
I'm not crazy about any organized religion, either, they all have their drawbacks, either now or more egregiously in the past.
However, I've seen the damage both Scientology and Mormonism has done first hand. (And Catholicism, too -- although that's not officially a cult, no matter what you aver.)
You ain't helping by equating all religions with cults, it's a false equivalency and gives the cults cover.
They are parasites, chameleons, and killers.
Ugh.
_Nobody_ gets a free pass because they anoint themselves a religion, regardless of whether the dubious notion that "all religions are cults" is accepted or not.
Those malefactors who seek cover under the guise of "religion" should be ready for endless scrutiny; if you can't handle it, the solution should be obvious.
But seriously not all faiths. If you take Jesus out of Christianity and focus mainly on the man, you have a businessman who realized that not everyone was privileged. It got so to him, after he read some of the contemporary documents in the commentaries that something was not "kosher" with the Jewish faith as it currently stood.
So he started to give parties, talk to people and find out where the common man was on all of this Pharisee nonsense (read Fundies, Mormons, Evangelicals, etc.). He established that something needed "righting" and he started the equivalent of a blog. There were thousands of subscribers, some of whom wrote their own "blogs" and held their own conversations.
But the Judean FauxNoise got the skinny on him and conspired to close him down. By the time of Constantine and Theodosius with their own version of Dobson/Fallwell+/Robertons, Athanasius, they shut down all the blogs, killed the subscribers and started the Catholic religion. And every century or so, there was a man bold enough to try it again. The 19th Century's golden boy was Joey Smif, 20th Century is L. Ron, and on and on... And dat's the truth!
Ugh.
They can't, so i don't...
Hehe....
Ugh.
These info-commercials would be wonderfully received, especially in the South.
Lack of morals? What did they cause? Katrina? WTC attacks? Divorces? Wife-beating? Child-beating? Embezzlement? Drunken one-night stands with prostitutes?
You say gay people caused this? Did you ever study the scientific method? Did you ever REALLY delve into logic?
Ugh.
Jesus, however, in the most elegant of summaries is NOT a cult. He is only, like many other prophets and poets, the teller of truth.
Ugh.
Mormons used to have the luxury of just a few people being vocally against them. Now they have 2.5% of the population plus their allies and friends against them. The more people that tell others about your whacky beliefs, the less people will be inclined to join your church.
John, keep exposing the mormons whacky beliefs, they hate when their history that they work so hard to hide comes out into the light. Talk about the fact that Joseph Smith created polygamy to have sex with other men's wives. Or the fact that Joseph Smith in his 30s married girls as young as 14. Or the fact that Joseph Fielding Smith, another of their "prophets" said their were men living on the moon. Or the fact that every prophet since Joseph has said the mormons are going to takeover the government of the USA.
This cult thinks it got bad press after its involvement in passing prop 8. Wait until it sticks it's fancy pants into California's elections again. We'll be ready for it.
Mainstream religion? I don't think so.
Ugh.
What's your point?
http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2009/05/wikipedi...
Not a surprise, from a religion that includes lying as a religious precept.
Multiple sources citing Lying for the Lord, including from Church hierarchy and Mormon members:
http://www.google.com/search?q=lying+for+the+lo...
"Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith's denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by "anti-Mormons" and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley's dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism's history seems replete with examples of lying."
"Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult."
"Lying for the lord" is part of Mormonism's larger deceptive
mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators. "
Now THAT'S national security!
Scientology fits all of these. Mormonism fits all of these at the start, but now three is gone and two is weakening.
That is one of the main things that sets Mormons apart as a cult -- and a rather bizarre cult at that.
In fact, Mormon temples should be taxed because they are not open to all members of the faith and, as such, are not a church.
Ugh.
Uh-huh. Please publish, if you will, your personal experiences in doing "temple work". Talk to us about magic underwear and the power it gives you.
Folks, this will not happen, because he is forbidden by his authorities to say a word. For IF a Mormon with a good recommend does that, he never stays a good Mormon for long, and he is discredited, mocked and intimidated. Furthermore, he will never see his family again. So what our little Mormon blog minder is saying here is pretty much pure rubbish.
Ugh.
No, these cult practices are not sacred. They are a weird blend of Joey Smif's personality cult and science fiction.
Although I must say, I HAVE read some science fiction that has approached the sacred in how it deals with man's relationship with the Divine.
Golub is a joke, however. And I have read the original corpus cover to cover. Nice of that missionary to reach in his backpack for it lo those many years. But I never EVER read that certain passage out loud. I ain't no fool.
Ugh.
Don't have time to go into it here, but a simple google search will bring up plenty.
I guess I'm trying to say, so what if Mormons are a cult? Does that make Christians in France feel better about themselves for believing the things they believe? Does it make them feel better when they shell out money to their church? Does it make them feel better when they bring in a new convert? Does it make them feel better when they choose to believe in angels, Jesus, or heaven? Where does the bigotry end?
Ugh.
If just one person hesitates joining the Mormon cult, over, say, the Methodists (if they have Methodists in France), at least that one person's life has less a chance of being ruined in the ways the Mormon cult has for ruining lives.
Also one less salary being use to fund to hate crimes.
I doubt the French proclaiming the Mormons a cult are doing it simply to stroke their egos -- yes, we get your point that you think all religion is silly and troublesome -- but the French government is performing a public service in warning French citizens away from a religion which acts much more like dangerous cult, than other religions, at this time.
Ugh.
And lying about it all, one way or another.
it may not be important to me or you that Mormons "baptize the dead" of other religions, but it is certainly an affront to those who worship differently.
But again, it's part of the chain of evidence of Mormons attempting to force their religious beliefs on others.
But the utility of mormon baptism for the dead is actually found among the living membership: wherein a naive, credulous mindset is convinced that he/she has found "the one true church" and must extend membership to all of humanity, living or dead.
Some find it obnoxious that the names of deceased family members are used as a faith-enmeshment tool (applied to the living) by a cult.
Mormon arrogance is immune to self-reflection & criticism, hence mormons will give no consideration to the feelings of family members. Mormon faith demands constant, continuous reinforcement - and using harvested names and idiotic postmortem "baptisms" is just part of the toolkit.
Gives me the creepies. Ick ICK I C K !!!!
Ugh.
It seems to me that the Prop 8 did backfire for the Mormons, despite its narrow win. Far more than the Catholics, the Mormons were seen as being the force behind the mean-spirited Prop 8. And new we read of an agency of the French government calling Mormonism a cult.
It should be really interesting to see how much the Mormons want to push the fight against the California ballot measure next year to repeal Prop 8. How much more exposure do they want? How much more attention the more bizarre tenets of their beliefs do they want? How much more exposure does their membership want now that they are aware that contributions to political campaigns are public record?
No. It is cut in marble (they don't use sandstone fer anything, they go for the best).
The current plan is Mitzie. When he flops again, they will find another handsome robot boy.
Remember, the goal is to have a chip implanted in every neck so that you can NEVER EVER be an apostate to their cruel cult. Once you are in, the mere thought of going over the wall will produce severe pains and artificial feelings of regret immediately.
We now have the technology. And since Cheney was president, we had the will.
Ugh.
I had a friend -- a coworker -- years ago, who was a Mormon. She became a Mormon at age 17. Her husband was born one. Because of this, maybe she isn't QUITE as "Mormon" as he is, but she is definitely a Mormon in Good Standing. Married in the temple, etc.
I will never forget what she told me once. I asked her about polygamy and she said it BOTHERED HER. I asked why, since that seemed to be in the past. She told me she asked her husband what would happen if an elder (or whatever they're called -- church leader) told him to take multiple wives. He said he probably would. She was floored.
And they aren't ignorant rednecks. He is a lawyer and she has a bachelor degree -- they have plenty of money -- that they earned themselves, by the way -- it wasn't inherited.
How can this NOT be a cult if he would actually do this -- or even THINK about it? Family values, my ass.
I just read the 200-page report (well, I skimmed it and searched for "mormon" I do read French, not well, but pretty well).
First of all it is the 2008 annual report, not new.
It does NOT declare any movement as a "cult."
It mentions "Mormon" only three times:
Page 88-89: A Finnish support group for cult members in Finland lists Mormons as a cult.
Page 89: It refers to a private and anonymous website by an Ex-Mormon as providiing information. It does not give a link, but probably refers to the Finnish website at www.mormonismi.net
Page 93: It summarizes the list of cults acknowledged to be present in Cyprus by the government of Cyprus, and Mormons is among them.
THAT'S ALL!
Second, it's a report about cults in Europe. A report by a French governmental body. It includes the Mormons, along with Satanists, Scientologists and Moonies. It doesn't include Catholics, Baptists, Greek Orthodox, Jews or any other religion. So what we know is that a French governmental report is treating the Mormons as a cult, and the report is at most 2 months old. That's exactly what I reported.
Lying for the Lord are we?
Pretty humorous, if you know Mr. Packham.
He may have produced a flawed translation/interpretation, but this is not a man who lies [period], let alone lies for a cult.
Perhaps this Mr. Packham is authentic. I would prefer to have my housemate check the french. Not only does he know french, but he knows about french-kissing. And I know that no Mormon sockpupplet could authentically give witness to that little joy of life.
Ugh.
Had I been a more attentive student, it coulda been me :(
Whether the report is only two months old is not relevant to my main objection: the report mentions Mormons ONLY in connection with their being labeled as "cults" in other countries. I think it is misleading to say that the French government, by reporting that fact, is endorsing that label.
For the record, I do consider Mormonism to be a cult.
I also am uncomfortable with any government that presumes to approve or disapprove of any religion or non-religion. The next group to be banned or demonized might be yours (or mine).
Ugh.
Combatting the effects of Mormonism is not helped by misrepresenting news items such as this French report.
If you want separate confirmation of my identity, e-mail me: packham@teleport.com
This one reads a little French because s/he was badly trained in the Mormon language school. Thing is, if you don't recognize the words, you can't read them. "Cult" is not in the Mormon French glossary. Hah.
Ugh.
Viva la France!
I just love that country.
Now Mr., you can have your idea of whatever happens after you die, but the point is: STAY OUT OF EVERYONE ELSE'S LIFE!
I have always been of the mindset "Live and let live." Whatever gets you through the night. Some are truly frightened all the time and NEED religion. So be it. But leave the rest of us non-scaredy-cats alone.
Every French citizen feels the same way about religion? Unlikely, but certainly likely that those you've encountered consider you a religious nut. Thanks for fucking up the French for the rest of non-nuts.
In this case, the bigot is calling the kettle black -- Mormons have actively acted as bigots against women, blacks and gays in recent memory.
(For instance, their lying campaigns against the ERA and for Prop H8. Also: Mormons refused to allow blacks to became church members until they were threatened with losing their tax-exempt status in the 1970s.)
By warning their citizens of the danger of your cult, the French are less bigots than sharp observers of Mormon practice.
Unfortunately, you can't take any posting from a Mormon at their word. See citations further down the thread about Lying for the Lord, the Mormon religious practice that encourages Mormons to break the commandment against bearing false witness.
That's right, a cult that encourages it's members to lie. Niiiiice.
Cheers!
no smoking, no drinking alcohol or coffee, and abstaining from sex outside marriage...and mormons are suprised they aren't a hit in France?
not the brightest cult...are ya?
Stupid Mormons.
I've been enjoying your postings on this topic and want you to know that I think you're wonderful!
Keep up your good work - and thank you for it!
Another Mormon blog minder. They have a call center dedicated to the correcting of Progressive blogs. They get all their talking points, all their scripts and all their retorts like above through an electrode in the back of their necks which is always ON. Alá Sirens of Titan, a parallel story to the account of Golub.
Ugh.
Five Kinds of Mormons:
http://www.mudrow.org/Herb/FKM1.html
This isn't meant to be humorous, and as an ex-mormon I can vouch the truth of it.
I have no idea why some poster decided to pick on Unitarians. If there is one faith tradition involving Jesus that as opposite to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as possible, that is the Unitarian Universalist tradition.
Mormons don't see themselves that way (they have the "Twoo" religion; everyone else having something other). How peculiar that no other belief system agrees with the LDS view that locates mormonism at the summit of authentic religion.
----------------
There's a funny semantic inversion between French and English on secte / sect vs. culte / cult. The neutral term in one language is the negative in the other.
Ugh.