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Of course, what they would accomplish would be antithetical to whatever movement they represented, but they would have an effect.
Ed Drone
The problem with the gay rights organizations is that we tried to do everything from Washington and the state capitals and real politics is door to door. Marches don't change the minds of people who think of us as "other" and not as their neighbors and fellow citizens. This was the problem with Prop 8 as well I think. This has to be personal and not in the abstract.
And it's not like some activists haven't been saying this for over a decade. The religious right was organized in every town in the country while we fought back with a few paid lobbyists. No wonder we kept getting our asses kicked. We are everywhere and not all that scary one you get to know (most of) us.
I am not hearing anything about this. All I am hearing is put ending the ban back on the ballot next time or going to the Supreme Court (which is NOT ready to rule on this). Who knows? This fight for gay marriage rights could be the matter that saves California on MANY fronts. The state needs a new Constitution and it's at least a decade overdue.
Yes, it would require a vote.
What Will Work?
Group of pissed off queens with pointy shoes overtaking congress and having a faggoty sit in = cheap and potentially fun?
:P
:)
Nevermind.
;)
PS: I hope you aren't seriously ill or injured.
Do you really think Martin Luther King's marches had no impact on the fight for civil rights?
In fact, I want them to stop flaunting their lifestyle at me altogether. Tv, movies, media, billboards, music.. everywhere i go it's constantly shoved in my face.
Yes, I think I've seen enough of "girls gone wild" with all the titty flashing and the "sticking of one's butt in front of the camera and wiggling it or placing it in the crotch of a male partner, simulating a sex act and gyrating for the camera. Speak about constantly shoving it in our faces.
I guess if you haven't puked yet, ya haven't had enough fun at these events. It makes a gay pride event seem rather tame.
Before, when we had the Dislike feature I was like -600.
More than for your commenting name, I assumed you were female because you write so clearly and deadon about female issues.
Now I have some serious mind adjustment to do :(
"Please tailor your lives to how other people feel you should live. Make yourselves less different. Stop being so queer. Conform. Conform. Assimilate. Don't give any hint that you're not like us. Anything different is scary."
ie: go back in the closet and stay there so I don't have to feel uncomfortable because of my own prejudices.
If you wish to change an acceptable norm, do so in a manor that gives you the best opportunity for success.
Ridiculous.
Straight people aren't apart of motivation at all.
Who gets to decide what is considered "acceptable norm," the church? In that case it would get a wee bit dark and lonely in that closet.
Yes, being inoffensive and playing nice has worked so well so far.
Been there, done that, got prop 8, DOMA and DADT. Simply assuming because we're tried integrating, not rocking the boat, and being nice that we'll win based upon the good graces of THE NORMALS is how we got our asses handed to us.
No more Mister Nice Faggot. I'm tired of people telling how to run my life based on what THEY find uncomfortable.
Unless you can enact laws yourself, you will have to obey them. Perception is everything.
We're successfully altering the parameters from "biblical sexual deviants" to "legitimate oppressed minority that crosses all ethnicities".
Let them fight that perception. The more it gains traction, the more bigoted they look, and the more their little boat is rocked.
Numerous states have come out in favor of it.
10 years ago it wasn't even close. The data defies your baseless ideology.
Righteous fury at blatant injustice is the best motivator humanity has ever devised and has always, eventually won the day.
Back to the drawing board with you.
Sexual orientation is not decided upon or a choice. If it is, give me the exact date and time you decided to be be attracted to the opposite sex. Give me the pros and cons you weighed in deciding that attraction.
How the fuck do you decide attraction? LOL If it was a choice or decision, why the hell would so many gays and lesbians live lives of perscution?
Ridiculous nonsense that's been trotted out time and again by wilfully ignorant buffoons in defense of patently stupid others.
I'm sorry, the evidence thus far points to genetic and physiological differences inherent in the makeup. There are even visible differences in brain structure. We are not responsible for your, or anybody elses ignorance.
Shove it in people's faces? What, simply existing openly and without fear, walking down the street holding hands, or doing any of the 1000 other things straight people do in the course of their day?
No thank you. I'm not going back in the closet because THAT ruffles the sensibilities of you or anybody else. Frankly, up yours.
Fuck you. Why do you have an opinion?
It's not as if I'm going to convince you of this, but time and time again, study after study has shown that attempting to force a change in sexual orientation on a person, whether gay or straight, results in permanent, severe psychological damage. If people could "become" gay or lesbian, and vice versa, with ease, surely such damage would not occur.
Enough with the discredited, extremist canards. Let's start talking about the guarantees of equality laid out for us in our nation's founding documents instead.
This isn't a culture war. It is having the legislation mirror our rights. It doesn't matter what culture/s we are talking about.
If heterosexuals have a problem that is a separate issue, and fortunately not my problem.
http://gaybookguide.blogspot.com/2009/05/gaycli...
Another very significant example of the effectiveness of popular movements is the Stonehill Riots in New York. While the effects weren’t instantaneous, the effects are still changing things today, including the current shift in the nation on Gay Marriage. Politicians don’t listen to polite talk, or read the letters from common folk, they roundfile our letters. It takes shows of force, power, mass demonstrations before they are aware that the common people matter at all. Mass marches, civil disobedience do catch their attention regardless of the lack of concrete, immediate changes.
Ah yes! Another example is that of the School of the America’s. Due to protests and marches, the government changed the name of that filthy school and is far more careful to conceal the nature of that school.
A march on Washington would be a colossal waste of time.
Lots of people, lots of bright colors, lots of speeches and absolutely no effect. The city will be empty, the government will under-report the turnout, the media will show pictures of the most flamboyant queens, the opposition will be given equal time and the whole thing will result in one brief, potentially unflattering news cycle. (Unless of course Obama needs to announce another Supreme Court nominee, in which case we lose even that.)
Conservatives have an edge in that regard. For example-- I live in an extremely conservative part of the nation that voted 2 to 1 in favor of McCain (the state, New Mexico, still went to Obama, yeah!). Democrats organized a ground force of bused-in volunteers from California and elsewhere to engage in a door-to-door campaign to try to get people to vote for Obama. This was labor-intensive, costly, difficult, and not very effective. In fact, such door-to-door face-to-face meetings are often viewed as annoying to anyone of any political persuasion.
The conservatives and Republicans didn't need to do any of that. Instead, small groups of writers and graphics designers, far away from here, designed vile propaganda flyers and shipped carton loads of them around the country, cheaply, to be processed by just a few people and bulk-mailed for cut-rate postage directly to peoples homes all over this region. These awful flyers reached a whole lot more people than the door-to-door real live people, and had a much greater effect for a tiny fraction of the cost and time.
Liberals, progressives and Democrats need to learn a few lessons from their adversaries about most bang for the buck. ;-)
I totally agree with John and Joe here that marches do no good. I've participated in two of them - the one in 1993 where I was a volunteer counter, and also the one in 2000 - I marched with my state of residence at the time (MD) - They're both correct in that they don't work anymore. They do nothing to influence legislation.. The only influence on legislation I saw that came out of any of them was the first 'hands around the White House' civil action at the 1993 march (which I participated in) - that one was instrumental in obtaining more funding for the Ryan White foundation, but other than that - zilch - I've seen no tangible results from them in recent history. Even most of the leaders of our largest national GLBT groups who were 'activist seasoned' expressed the same opinions after the 2000 march - that they have lost their influential power to get legislation passed. They're just not worth the time, money, and effort spent nowadays. I think Harry Hay was the only dissenter in that group.
That said, however, if we somehow organized a multiple cause march with ALL the groups for ALL the most pressing issues now --- i.e. civil rights for GLBT's, universal healthcare for all, the economy/better regulation for the banks/Wall St., ending this senseless war in iraq, political campaign reform, voting rights, etc. --- and I mean EVEry group supporting all these issues converging on Washington at once - in the same week - might (and there's a major doubt factor in that 'might') have some affect.
Many of us would love to see some suggestions from you about what you think might be effective.
There's lots of energy, anger, determination but we all need a focus.
Please share/suggest.
If you want to make a difference. Go out and raise $50,000 in individual contributions bundled. Then go to you elected officials office with the bundle. Place it on the desk and say, "I have $50,000 in political contributions here. This is what I want."
That's politics in America today.
If you don't like it, tough. You get the politician you pay for.
If you can get 100,000 people to show up on the mall, get them all to give you $10 and you have a $1,000,000 kitty to buy your votes.
And whom do we appoint as the "spokesperson". In my 40+ years of activism I have seen very very few who were appropriate candidates.
Is that the best way to spend gay dollars ...to fund Right Wing Companies?
This is the age of Youtube. And all the other tubes that make up the interweb. This is the decade more folk are actually caring and paying attention and angry. Do NOT underestimate the value of a good march!
What does it accomplish? March and find out. Could it be just a giant feel-good waste-of-resources on a party instead of 'actual work?' Maybe. However, a properly organized, properly run march can serve to energize and connect people together, it is more than just preaching to the choir - it can be more than that - and it can be truly inspirational.
I went to the one in 1987 when there was a lot more anger and energy than in the two major ones subsequent, it was AWESOME and I met people and groups I otherwise would not have met nor would have been concerned with so soon. There were some kick-ass speeches, as well as Jesse Jackson making a grandstand 'all-about-me' play that went over like the proverbial lead zepplin that the documentary footage I have seen does not show properly.
I was at the one in 1993, which Clinton just so conveniently chose to miss, and I thought that it was such a shame, as an American he really missed something. As it so happened he did miss a lot. [Though not at that march per-se.]
Seeing Pussy Tourette perform with the capital dome behind her all I could think is "what a great show" and knew that all my internalized gender-shame based homophobia was truly gone.
Of course all the 'media' showed were the guys in the assless chaps and the Dykes On Bikes cruising with their painted boobs. Whoo hoo.
Then there was the march in 2000, which most of my friends warned me not to bother with but I had to go and see. I am glad I did but my friends were right. Demonstrating the WORST aspects of the WORST traits of the HRC, teamed up with the MCC preaching it was doubly (or triply) loathsome as it was the only march of the three that had great weather, wasted. There were some really nice people who attended and whom I met, dedicated folk who thought they could connect and get active and show their political feelings, and they were abused to find the good stuff mixed with the commercial stuff cordoned off in areas with unbelievable lines, a huge fee and "security" so hostile you can't imagine. Where did the money go? How much was involved?? To this day no one can be sure.
If ANYONE involved in the 2000 march is involved at decision making level of the next one - there will be trouble and they had better hire accountants and lawyer(s) and private investigators immediately. It is a great example of what NOT to do. I think we may have learned. The 1987 march - that had much going for it - if we could do something like that - with the eyes of the nation and the world and the internets upon us - I think it could be mightily effective and worth participating in. None of this rules out any peaceful civil disobedience either - after all it;s our RIGHTS we are DEMANDING, and anyone demanding rights - not mewling for acceptance - should be willing to protest properly.
If Obama shows up - which he really could do - would that be worth it?? I daresay it would, no matter what the cost. And if he pulls a Clinton then that's worth it too, in that we would know just how much work we'd have to do with / to him.
Marching is an American thing. One that never makes sense nor can be properly measured using dollars and cents. So "I [you] don't know a single effective political organizer or advocate who thinks that marching on Washington accomplishes anything other than wasting millions of dollars, creating a big donor list for ineffective groups to milk later on, and making the marchers feel like they've done something when they haven't." - um, it's not FOR the professional activist. It's for the rest of us and it's to demonstrate our grievances and issues for others to see. A large angry presence on the nation's front yard should be frightening. Can be. Can be a podium for some real leadership to be shown, and like the '87 and '93 march, can pay for themselves if not end up with a surplus. I think us gays and gay rights active straight folk can both walk and chew gum at the same time eh?
And having lived in DC for most of that time, I should have known that. It is a HUGE waste of resources that are needed elsewhere. Folks can get empowered locally (and electronically) now.
So... What will?
The answer was found by, interestingly enough, by watching Fox News.
Back in April we saw conservatives holding "tax protest tea parties." These Fox News sponsored protests sought to invoke the spirit of the Boston Tea Party and early American
tax resistance. Well, ok. In the 1770's the issue was "Taxation Without representation"
Hmmm.. ok, so let me see if I understand this. Being TAXED as a full citizen of a country, while not having the full RIGHTS as other citizens of that country was considered tyranny. So much so that it was worthy of not only tax resistance but even armed rebellion.
Now let me be very clear. I AM NOT IN ANY WAY advocating armed rebellion against the government. (Besides, the Texas Republican Party has already taken that idea and ran with it.)
But the TAXATION question is an interesting one.
LGBT Americans are taxed as full citizens of our nation while being officially relegated to second-class citizenship. The Republican Party is quite happy with that arrangement, and the Democratic Party is too scared of being painted as being too "pro-gay" to do anything more than just talk about it while doing nothing.
In CA the answer is even more clear. The State of California is literally broke. The fiscal crisis that looms over our state is massive and overshadows nearly all other issues. If even a moderate percentage of LGBT Californians went and stopped our state tax payroll withholding, it would bring the state to a crashing grinding halt nearly overnight.
Dear CA Supreme Court - If you are determined to exclude me from the Equality Party, fine, But don't expect me to help pay the bill for it then. (Or your salaries for that matter...)
The answer in the fight for LGBT equality is to use the power of the Gay Tax Dollar. It's time to tell the rest of America that if LGBT Americans are not treated as full citizens, then we refuse to be taxed as such.
The steaming pile of self - appointed "Leadership" in the LGBT Community basically has embraced the taking point of "inevitable social change". We don't need to do anything drastic because young people are all hip to Gay rights, so we just need to sit and wait for all the old bigots to die off.
Sorry, no.... I deserve and demand the civil rights I am paying for every April 15th NOW Not five to ten years from now. HRC, and the DNC apparently are far more interested in fundraising for Change down the road, than fighting for it today.
David F.
San Francisco, CA
While I agree with you on this particular moment to march, I must strongly disagree that the prior marches accomplished little. The 1993 march was the one I attended at age 20 and it was a formative experience in my gay life. Thousands of people felt this incredible uplift and inspiration, many came out of the closet, many got involved in their local organizations when they went home. The value is immeasurable. Please don't forget what the gay life was like only that long ago -- it was still very isolating, we were invisible in the national popular culture, many of us had serious fears about our jobs, our families and our friends. Clinton was the first president to even speak about us in anything approaching respectful tones. He failed us, yes. But we probably needed to do a whole lot more work on ourselves, too, before we could effectively move national or even state and local policy. And he did provide important progress on HIV/AIDS funding; remember in 1993 we were just trying to stay alive and serve in the military, not marry.
I believe the marches before '93 were similarly empowering. I don't know about the others since then as I didn't attend. It is reasonable to argue that such an event now would be a waste of money and organizational talent. We don't need to encourage people to come out the way we used to, we have a trove of new civil rights and accomplishments, we're in the media incessantly. So you're probably right.
Our tactics, our motivations, our goals, our barriers are quite different now. But that's no reason to rewrite the history. I lived it. I came out to my parents days before the 1993 march specifically so I could walk the streets of DC out for the first time. It was glorious. And I wasn't the only one inspired, comforted, less alone after that weekend.
I skipped the 2000 march. Too corporate and too controlled by HRC. But if the demand for a march bubbles up from the grassroots, it is worth doing again. In '79 and '87, grassroots groups across the country worked on the marches and formulated demands from the ground up. It was messy, but the only way to do it effectively and to gain people's buy-in. We certainly don't need another top down march like 2000.
For instance, if there is going to be a march on Washington, it should be organized from the ground up, and it shouldn't be the only march in the country--there should be marches in as many places across the U.S. as possible -- that way, you attract the attention of non-DC folks and out-of-town Reps. as suggested by Joe. You also increase impact -- a march on Washington is all fine and good, but people outside the Beltway generally scoff. But if there are marches in DC, Salt Lake, Milwaukee, Chicago, Peoria, Binghamton, Omaha, Kansas City, Tucson, Birmingham, Tampa, Cincinnati, and so on, well...that tends to mean a bit more symbolically.
However, even widespread, grassroots-driven marches on one day aren't enough. I think you'd have to have repeated marches, maybe as often as once every two weeks, which DON'T involve funneling massive amounts of resources -- again, all driven by the people, not the orgs that need the money and staff for other advocacy and organizing. Those marching also have to be ready and willing to engage in other things like citizen lobby days, attendance at Reps' and Senators' constituent listening sessions, citizen strategy sessions, door-to-door advocacy, lit drops, and more. Basically, you have to be ready to volunteer for and staff a full-blown campaign that involves citizens talking to each other and their elected officials on the local, state, and federal levels.
There is a lot of energy and anger out there right now, something that we should be tapping into. Marching is fine, but it's true that it doesn't accomplish much, especially if it's a big, expensive, multimedia "to-do" that sucks away essential nonprofit resources during a recession. Only by tapping that energy for other essential activities (legislative and regulatory advocacy, letter-writing/e-mail campaigns, face-to-face meetings with government officials/staff, citizens engaging with each other, and so on) at the same time can you ever hope to make change.
Please put that energy and money (that you would spend on hotels, plane tickets, etc) into organizations that will actually DO the work that needs doing! A DC-wide, weekend-long Party is fun, and you'll never forget it, but don't kid yourself that you're accomplishing anything by being a part of it.
No one can deny that the '63 march gave us a tidal wave of sweeping civil rights legislation. God knows that the LGBT community could use such a tidal wave, especially since we've yet see ANY such legislation ever pass Congress.
The real question should be, how can we duplicate the '63 success, and not duplicate the failures of most subsequent marches? Unfortunately, most Americans' knowledge of the '63 march is confined to superficial "I have a dream" soundbites, ignoring the core political narrative of that march.
Democratic Party myth-making aside, the march began as a series of DEMANDS put on the Democratic White House and Congress. Several times JFK tried to get Dr. King, Bayard Rustin, et al to call off the march, all while JFK's brother had the Justice Department spying on King and other key organizers. King, et al refused to call off the march, and basically made it clear that they weren't in either parties' back pocket, and that the failure of the Kennedy administration to support the civil rights program would mean that the march would become an anti-administration march.
They stuck to their guns and that's why JFK was reluctantly forced to buck his Dixiecrat allies and support many of the march's demands.
Fast-forward to the present, and any national march which fails to make demands of the Obama administration -- or fails to back up those demands with credible threats of retribution if Obama continues to diss LGBT demands -- will indeed be a failure.
We have to DEMAND that Obama fulfill his pledges on repealing DOMA, Don't Ask / Don't Tell, needle exchanges, etc., rather than continuing to run away from such promises. We need to demand that he drop the Bushite "failth-based" funding, return to his Illinois statehouse support for full equal marriage rights, and stop associating with anti-LGBT equality bigots any more than any politician should associate with open white supremacists.
We need to back these demands with the credible threat of sitting out the 2010 Congressional bi-elections if the congressional Democrats and Obama fail to get with the program. This is why those calling for a national march in the fall of 2009 are so missing the boat. Better to schedule a march for the spring or at latest, early fall of 2010, so that the threat of sitting out the bi-elections carries real muscle.
Soaring oratory has been common before and since the 1963 march. What made the 1963 march historic was its coupling of real demands with a credible threat of political retribution if those demands weren't swiftly met.