DISQUS

MNPundit · 1 year ago

Hmm I'd say those people who view gays as effeminate wimps will be getting a rude awakening. Changing hearts and minds is hard but it is the only real way.

DavidinPS · 1 year ago

We sometimes forget that changing hearts and minds is not always a soft and gooey kumbaya thing.

Sometimes it requires a slap across the face.

Or worse.

Raymond T. Anderson · 1 year ago

I agree. And I too am troubled by lack of leadership. After Prop 8, I am one pissed off non-Californian straight guy eager to do something that would make a difference. But there's no bandwagon to get on.

Laura_in_CC · 1 year ago

I am not entirely certain that the proper term for the motive of the proponents of Proposition 8 is “hate.” Hate is such a strong word and connotes an emotional involvement.

Gridlock · 1 year ago

*turns the spotlight on Mr. Aravosis, decked out in the very latest in fashionable militant homosexualist political attire*

The Tim Channel · 1 year ago

Hey John, I 'tagged' you. It's a little difficult to explain in this short post, but it is a requirement of myself being tagged by PZ Myers (noted evolutionary biologist and outspoken atheist) on his website that I am honoring you with the same status by "tagging" you in the following post:

http://thetimchannel.com/?p=263

Have some fun with it.

Enjoy.

scottinsf · 1 year ago

As far as the national GLBT advocacy groups go, I think Lambda Legal has done an exceptional job in their role here in California. HRC should probably keep focussed on pushing congress on national issues. California will take care of this Prop 8 bullcrap one way or another. If a national leader comes out of this, either from California or elsewhere, great. If not we'll get by.

Yvonne · 1 year ago

I heard that people have only hardened in their positions since the vote. No one is being persuaded on either side and hostility is rising. I don't know what the answer is but I fear that this current tact is not going to produce the desired results. I hope that there will be some favorable outcome in the courts. One shouldn't be denied the constitutional rights through a ballot initiative.

DavidinPS · 1 year ago

Not true. A recent survey noted that about 8% of the people who voted Yes on 8 had their midns changed by the protests.

That is enough to have changed the results of the election.

Of course the headline in USA Today would have you believe something quite the opposite.

Topher · 1 year ago

Plus, I suspect there are way more people out there who would have opposed Prop 8 but didn't vote than the other way around.

DavidinPS · 1 year ago

John-
No, HRC is not supposed to "parachute in." But they donated only $3.4 million to No on 8. It is estimated that 90 percent of that number was from online donations specifically targeted to No on 8. So only about 8% of that amount was from the HRC budget. Yet HRC sucks about $6MILLION A YEAR out of California!!

What's wrong with that picture?

I suppose it might not be so shocking if HRC could point to some other important piece of legislature they were pouring their resources in to.

Face it. They are the "business as usual" "go along to get along" crowd in a world that is desperate for something--anything-- else.

midasbob · 1 year ago

I'm confused. In the same sentence, you say California got "us" into this mess, then turn around and say it's California's own business. Turns out it's every gay person in the US's business. I know you obviously disagree with Prop 8, and have championed action against its passage. Shouldn't we all be working to overturn this travesty, including the HRC? They would seem to be the ones with the know-how, and I'd welcome their help.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

John, you are forgetting that many groups were decisive for the results on the ballots. But of course, it is easier to target the lds faith that it is always been misunderstood by the mainstream American culture and that is a small minority with little leverage power. Yes, John show your-true-self: hit the weak, foster hate and prejudice...hmmm.. it is like a deja-vu! What's next? Burn their books on a public square? and after that what else?

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Of course the LDSers are our target - they were the single largest group of donors to the Yes on 8 campaign. This lead to endless TV ads full of lies that convinced many that if 8 failed, their churches would lose their tax-exempt status and the gays were going to recruit their children. Consider our attack on the LDS a preemptive strike for the next time. You all aren't going to have any money to donate to hateful causes.

midasbob · 1 year ago

Oh come on. Mainstream America fully understands the LDS faith... they understand it's a crock. And though they may be a religious minority, with Prop 8 they proved they have massive leverage power. It they didn't, the Catholic church wouldn't have asked for their help in passing prop 8.

shanobama · 1 year ago

The laws in America protect your minority status. The Constitution protects your right to worship your religion as you wish as long as you do not infringe on the rights of others.

You decided to infringe on the rights of the GLBT community by making a big push to take away their established rights. You were wrong, you should repent and stop fostering hate, prejudice and bigotry against your gay brothers and sisters.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

What should we do? We need to keep the 'heat' up until a cohesive campaign surfaces. I propose targeting Mormon-own businesses for 'spot' pickets - the SF Marriott one night, a LA Marriott another night, a Cinemark cinema in San Diego another night. These pickets only need to be 30 minutes or so - just long enough to dissuade some customers and also to get media coverage.

Jack · 1 year ago

Targetted regional flash mobs at major events are the way to get attention.

Show up with a thousand people and circle the establishments - fill the sidewalks on all sides. If you can't be overwhelmingly large and restrained, be small, loud, outraged, and obnoxious.

Examine how Anonymous has targetted the Church of Scientology. A bunch of young ADD otaku emerged from their basements and waged war on a well-funded group with a history of intimidation and assassination of critics. With a shoestring budget (Our group has collected around $10k over 10 months), they have thrown hours-long 200+ person protest rallies/parties a dozen times, and hundreds of smaller events.

Freddie · 1 year ago

Why, given all the complaints about the Mormon church and their fiscal role in Prop 8, and encouragement to make Mormon donors pay for what they did, why don't I hear any similar proposal regarding the good Archbishop of San Francisco, formerly Bishop of Salt Lake, who initially invited the Mormons to join his and his church's fight against gay rights.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Actually, this started in 1987 as an LDS effort. But regarding why we are not targeting Catholics, they didn't give as much money; there is a huge divide in the beliefs of many Catholics - a good percentage of them actually do support same-sex marriages. Finally, the just aren't as smug or creepy as you all. You can be gay and a Catholic (but God only knows why someone would want to do that) but to be gay and Mormon means 'excommunication' Oh, did I mention that you have one of the creepiest religions on on earth and most people would be repulsed at your beliefs? And then there is the irony of your tradition of polygamy and incest, while you are claiming to preserve 'traditional' marriage. In short, it is easy and fun to watch you all squirm. Go listen to a King Family CD or something.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

You cannot be gay and Catholic. Try to get your communion when everybody knows that your a gay in a Catholic Parrish.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Wrong. You need to study a little before you post here.

Steve_in_CNJ · 1 year ago

as the saying goes, communion is for sinners not saints. catholics welcome gays to communion as long as they are ashamed. fucked up i know. but catholics have paid a price already in places like massachusetts. now it's your turn. enjoy.

Freddie · 1 year ago

You make a curious assumption that I am Mormon. I am not, never have been, never could be, am a total nonbeliever of Christian mythology, am gay, have lived for 28 years in SF. Are you so defensive that you thought you detected something in my comment that threatened you?

Freddie · 1 year ago

Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that I donated $100 bucks to the 'No on 8' campaign. Got that? The NO on 8 campaign. Ease up a little on your paranoia and you'll be more effective.

Freddie · 1 year ago

I don't believe "smug or creepy" is an expression you should toss about so lightly. From looking at your various comments on this and other threads, I could see how someone, somewhere, who doesn't know the sweet you personally, could make that same claim about you, that it is a psychological projection. Or are you one of those guys who is just so angry that he's flailing around wildly at everyone around him, friend and foe alike, who just needs to be hugged for awhile till he calms down and takes a deep breath.

Freddie · 1 year ago

Oh, Gary, and one last thing -- I personally would like to see the demonstrations and boycotts continue endlessly or until gays are grated FULL civil rights in all parts of this country.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Oh and why hasn't a cohesive plan surfaced? Well, we are in the California Supreme Court. 4 different suits, two dealing with process, two dealing with constitutionality. Some are preparing for the 2010 election. And most of us are still 'digesting' the election results. Not to mention how the Bush Legacy Economy is weighing upon many.

Steve_in_CNJ · 1 year ago

the HRC is not in a position to benefit from a surge in activism. they are mostly political insiders and people with the resources to buy their way out of discrimination. Lambda Legal is doing about all it can do behind the scenes (send them money). many of the LGTFs have lost credibility by taking on extraneous issues like women's rights and 'free mumia' stuff. There's GLAAD and PFLAG, but are they structurally able to galvanize all the outrage? doubtful. on the government side, obama is not going to be visible on our issues for at least a couple of years (he wants to move cautiously on DADT even though there is 75% support to abolish it). likewise, michelle obama won't touch it. nor can we look for leadership from the US civil rights commission, since we basically don't exist under federal law. the political climate is right for a governor or maybe an obama appointee to lead, but i can't think of anyone, can you? maybe the Dem mayors from SF and SLC team up. that would make a splash. as far as private citizens, if 99.9% of the public don't know who judy shepard is, i have little hope there either. so it looks like we wait. drip drip drip and gradually things evolve.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

Let me get this right, you people are trying to affirm that Mormons are the main cultural and financial power in California?
Even if they have contributed, and they have the right to do so in America, they are not the most powerful force in California. Do you agree?
But certainly is easier to bash them: it is even accepted by the mainstream. Protest against other groups in this country and you'll will lose all the support from the mainstream culture: attack the black community in the same way you did with Mormons. Attack the Catholics, Attack the conservative Jews. Attack the baptists and tell me if the LGBT will lose or not their support by Mr. and Ms. middle America. But who cares about the Mormons? SO let crush them. No?

Steve_in_CNJ · 1 year ago

you don't need baptists in california. you just need 2%. mormons placed themselves in the cross hairs. pull the trigger and send them slithering back under their rock.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Mormons were the primary donors to the Yes on 8 campaign - somewhere between 40% and 70% of the total funds collected. Nobody is challenging your right to make such donations. We also have the right to boycott Mormon-owned businesses, Utah and whatever else we want and that is what we are doing AND THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. You all chose to exploit children in the ads to pass proposition 8. We are now exploiting you by letting people know just how creepy your religion is to ensure that we get our rights. If you can't take the heat, stay out of politics. We are playing by the rules you established in this election. Stop acting like a victim - it was my rights that you helped remove.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

Don't worry Gary, by the way society is going you will get your "rights" anytime soon. It is not a law that will change the world but is the heart of the people.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Well, let me tell you how you all screwed up: If you had spent $30 million and thousands of hours of volunteered time working to elimnate the effects of poverty in a major part of a poor state or gone in an used your great organizational talents to clean up the Katrina mess - your church's membership would have doubled and you all would be held in high esteem by the general public. But instead you chose to get involves with 'Caesar's Laws' and here you are. Pity. It is going to be a generation before you all recover from all of the bad press you are going to get in the coming months.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

Again, a spread of wrong data. The church has helped in New Orleans ask the Governor of that state about his words of thanks to the LDS church for their help after Katrina passed. The Church considering its size is one of the most philanthropic organization in America and in the World. The Mormon church did not give valuable financial support to the prop 8 campaign were the members (most of them Californian) who sustained the effort. And what about the money that you have spent for your "no campaign": could not have you given it to the poor as well?

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Don't fucking turn this on me - I wasn't trying to take away your rights, although I am guessing that is what is going to eventually happen. Get some help - your belief system is based upon a pack of lies by your 'leader' Smith. Part of my family are ex-Mormons who all left the church over its hypocrisy. Oh, and I supported folks that did go the the hurricane zone from here.

shell · 1 year ago

In America, 2008, MONEY trumps everything. Especially with the Mormons. Have you heard they used to have bigamy be in their religion? Oh yes -- all the way up until right before Utah became a state. Funny thing! When the U.S. wouldn't allow Utah to be a state, the leader (Brigham Young at that time?) suddenly had a vision from God, saying bigamy was no longer God's word! Funny timing, wasn't it? The same thing happened with allowing African Americans to be Mormons. They change their religion based on $$$$.

Just boycott Utah -- and all other businesses Mormons have. I guarantee you that will cause another VISION to the current leader. I am really POed at the Sundance Festival -- and I hope 100% of gays will boycott it, because it is in Utah.

The same goes for the Catholics. Take away their money, and they fold like a cheap -- whatever. In fact, most religions are like this. And all this time, I thought money was the root of all evil. The older I get, the more I believe this.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

Shell you got wrong most of the facts about the Mormons: read a little more on the subject before spreading your "culture" around.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Yes, Shell - I recommend that you read "Under the Banner of Heaven" by Jon Krakaur - it is an 'eye-opener.' There still are 40,000 Mormon Fundamentalists who still practice polygamy. While they are somewhat out of the LDS mainstream, they certainly are tolerated - otherwise the LDS-controlled government of Utah could have had them all arrested by now. It is easy to see from these fundamentalists how easy it is for a typical Mormon to move from being delusional in their beliefs but harmless to innocent people outside of their religion to a mob of people, trying to take away another group's rights or even murder. It's a great book.

shell · 1 year ago

Thanks. I will find that book!

There is much more I could have said to "Barbaricino" but it would have fallen on deaf ears. When religion blinds you, most times it is permanent.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

I am a Mormon. So let me get straight some of your facts. Mormons officially practiced polygamy for 40 years between 1852 to 1890. So did Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, and most of the people that you can remember in the old testament times. This form of marriage was an exceptional one. In the Book of Mormon (Jacob 2:27-29) is stated that God from time to time have allowed this form of marriage. Thus, polygamy is an exception to the normal monogamous style of matrimony . The leader at that time was Wilford Woodroff and he did not not have a sudden dream. Mormons were persecuted for years by the federal government. Yes of course it is a matter of faith to believe that God speaks to men, but why God can speak to Peter or Paul and not to other of his children. Money was not the factor that changed the policy on polygamy but a sacred revelation from God, why he did it? Well that will takes us to a speculative ground but certainly was not the money. And BTW during that time all small percentage of Mormons practiced polygamy the vast majority had only one wife and they were not forced to get more. Funny enough, Mormons in missouri were persecuted because among other things were against slavery. Mormons did not have two separate churches for the black and whites like many other in America, this even in South Africa when there was the apartheid. Many blacks were members of the church even before they could hold the priesthood and i have many black Mormon friends. Why? Because even if we don t know why the priesthood was for a while restrained from the African-American, they know that the church has treated them better the other denominations in the past.

SecretBYUBottomBoy · 1 year ago

Um we DO know why... I'll tell you "why" blacks weren't allowed to have the priesthood, Barbaricino. RACIST MORMON THEOLOGY AND LEADERS. Why are you defending the church's shameful history of racism? [And before you start, I'm an RM and former Mormon myself, so yes, i do know what i'm talking about]. The exclusion of blacks was no mystery. Check out these quotes from Apostle Mark E. Petersen:

“Is there reason then why the type of birth we receive in this life is not a reflection of our WORTHINESS OR LACK OF IT in the pre-existent life?...can we account in any other of way for the birth of some of the children of God in darkest AFRICA, or in flood-ridden CHINA, or among the starving hordes of INDIA, while some of the rest of us are born here in the United States? We cannot escape the conclusion that because of performance in our pre-existence some of us are born as Chinese, some as Japanese, some as Indians, some as Negroes, some as Americans, some as Latter-day Saints. THESE ARE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS, fully in harmony with His established policy in dealing with SINNERS AND SAINTS, rewarding all according to their deeds....

http://www.mormoncurtain.com/topic_markepeterso...

SecretBYUBottomBoy · 1 year ago

Here's a nother choice quote from Elder Petersen from the 50s. Gee-- does it sounds familiar?

"I think I have read enough to give you an idea of what the negro is after. He is not just seeking the opportunity of sitting down in a cafe where white people eat. He isn't just trying to ride on the same streetcar or the same Pullman car with white people. It isn't that he just desires to go to the same theater as the white people. From this, and other interviews I have read, it appears that the negro seeks absorbtion with the white race. He will not be satisfied until he achieves it by intermarriage.That is his objective and we must face it. We must not allow our feeling to carry us away, nor must we feel so sorry for negroes that we will open our arms and embrace them with everything we have. Remember the little statement that we used to say about sin, 'First we pity, then endure, then embrace.'..."

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

Petersen have expressed an idea very common in the '50s in America. Petersen ideas on society were not the doctrine. African- American have understood this and are joining the Church here and in Africa and In Europe. I have black Mormon friends and they have understood that those statements were typical of white America at that time and nothing had to do with the Gospel. Not everything that petersen or other Mormons say is "bible". The source of truth in Church works in a different way.

shell · 1 year ago

But if the BIGGEST leader of the LDS church supposedly converses with God, why would he think differently from 1850 to 1900 to 1950 to today? Does God change his mind that often?

What a weak explanation!

I have had enough! I can't see one person who has agreed with you, so, unless you're getting some Brownie Points for doing this, you're wasting your time.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

Not looking for points I have just some spare time. I am ok with people having a different idea from mine, I just can't stand when I hear a bunch of inexact info about the Church. Well, if you read and believe you'll find that Jesus changed the law of Moses even though he maintained the same principles. Peter, and Paul added more teachings on the one from Jesus. If you do not believe well I cannot make a case on that on this blog. But you can always pray God and ask him to give you faith.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

Some leaders of the church have tried to explain why the priesthood was withhold from the african americans using the doctrine of preexistence: the truth is that God as not revealed the true reasons. I would like just to remind you that in Ancient Israel only few members of a tribe held the Aaronic priesthood: the levites and among them only the children of Levi could actually be priest. Was that racism against the other families and tribes? Yes? Not? I leave it to you. At the beginning of Christianity was discussed in the early church if gentiles should be baptized and/or circumcised Peter had a revelation and te policy changed so what is so abnormal about Mormons in respect of the other revealed faiths? Things can change when God make its will know ot his people. I do not pretend to covert here it is a matter of faith so I am trying only to explain few details.

shell · 1 year ago

How convenient! Everything weird (or grossly racist/homophobic), the answer is: "God has not revealed that to us." Truer words were ever spoken. Mark my words, when the publicity gets too strong, the Mormon leader will have another VISION, saying homosexual is OK. Just like they did with blacks.

And you seem to THINK I have many things about Mormons wrong, although I was told them BY a Mormon.

Answer this for me then: Do Mormons believe Jesus walked in North America?

And why are WOMEN second class citizens in the Mormon faith? And don't give me any BS about "They aren't 2nd class citizens! They have their place, too!" Yeah, some place. (And I don't hold Mormons to any standard higher than Catholics or Baptists (or any fundamental religion for that matter) on this.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

In the Church women hold leadership positions and Mormon priesthood is "shared" with the wives. The highest blessings are reached only through marriage. A man is saved with is wife and vice versa and God will held both of them responsible by the way they treat each other. The African-Americans before 1978 were members of the church and could go to the temple together with white members. The ban on the priesthood was a temporary one like it was for the gentiles at the time of the bible. Gay marriage will never be sanctioned by the church it would be like say that the man and women do not need to be faithful to their spouses or that the bible was a joke.
Jesus walked in America (north or south) like he walked in Jerusalem or on the waters of Galilee. He die and three days later was resurrected.

shanobama · 1 year ago

How do you KNOW that GOD will not come out with another 'revelation' and say to your Mormon Church that gays should absolutely have the right to marry? Because God changed his mind about polygamy, right?

This is why religion has no place in developing civil law.

I for one am sick of my tax dollars supporting the Mormon towns, like Colorado City, who still practice polygamy. Each 'wife' is viewed as a 'single mother' and collects a welfare check. Get 10 wives under one roof and those checks add up to some cash. But our tax dollars are supporting this 'religion' and ENABLING them to live their religious fantasy. Wonder why the Mormon Church does not find a way to shut them down, because they are ripping off all of us.

red_dwarf · 1 year ago

"God from time to time have allowed this form of marriage.."

I'm sold.

shell · 1 year ago

I actually got nothing wrong. I am not a Mormon-hater. I know it sounds trite, but one of my best friends is a Mormon. And she told me everything I say or write. And, having converted to Mormonism as a teenager, 35 years ago, she told me more than she should have, according to her husband.

So don't you DARE say I don't know what I'm talking about. If you are a Mormon, you know I am being honest -- and, according to my friend, LYING is a huge no-no in the Mormon faith. And if you aren't a Mormon, how is it you say *I* am wrong?

There is much to love about the Mormon faith, but homophobia -- and butting into others' beliefs -- are not some of them.

shell · 1 year ago

I actually got nothing wrong. I am not a Mormon-hater. I know it sounds
trite, but one of my best friends is a Mormon. And she told me everything I
say or write. And, having converted to Mormonism as a teenager, 35 years ago,
she told me more than she should have, according to her husband.

So don't you DARE say I don't know what I'm talking about. If you are a
Mormon, you know I am being honest -- and, according to my friend, LYING is a
huge no-no in the Mormon faith. And if you aren't a Mormon, how is it you say
*I* am wrong?

There is much to love about the Mormon faith, but homophobia -- and butting
into others' beliefs -- are not some of them.


In a message dated 11/24/2008 10:41:13 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
writes:

Gary SF · 1 year ago

I love the smell of Mormons imploding in the morning. . .

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

....the quintessential reaction of a frustrated person: nonsense!

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Me frustrated? I'm not the one, visiting 'enemy' sites and making a fool out of myself. Don't soil your magic underwear while you are here.

shell · 1 year ago

hahaha Magic underwear. That is one of the things my friend told me about (20 years ago), when her husband (a Mormon from birth) told her she shouldn't have. I believe his words were "You are casting your pearls before swine." Did that insult me? Hell no! I just laughed at him!

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

So if we don't discuss with LGBT we are bigots if we do discuss we them we are fool: you are never satisfied. We just need to say yes we agree with you not to be fool or bigots. Well in America you can still disagree and communicate with respect.
Any religion has is way to express their faith I don't make fun of catholic who were golden crosses or Jews who were their hats. I did not make fun of gay or lesbians for their habits as much as I disagree with them. I have some gay friends and we have shared our opinions with respect of each other feelings and we still keep our friendship

shell · 1 year ago

What do you mean "discuss with LGBT?" One of the things I (thought) I liked about Mormons was that they did not inflict their religion on others, unless asked. At least in America. IF a LGBT asks for your input, by all means, do it. But with Prop. 8, the Mormon church worked against them, without their permission, and LIED. Yes, you LIED. The one lie that really frosts me is that commercial said children in 1st grade would be "taught gay sex." A LIE. Yes, I have 3 children. I know this is a lie. Do they teach AGE-APPROPRIATE info. about sexual matters? Yes -- that if you are TOUCHED in an inappropriate place, tell someone. That's it. And your commercials hinted that they were teaching 1st graders how to have gay sex.

That is a LIE and you (and your religion) should be ashamed of yourselves. And you wonder why the Mormon church is reviled by many?

As for Catholics and golden crosses or Jews and hats -- that doesn't affect you! Why would you care? And disagreeing with gays? I don't give a rat's ass if you disagree -- disagree all you want -- but don't take their rights away. THAT is the rub.

And you pretend not to understand the difference. Shame on you. No one is trying to tell you you can't marry who you want to -- why would you do that to others?

The dirty little secret is that all the nutty religions have found something they can agree on -- gays! With blacks, too many were religious, so that was in their favor. Same with Jews. Same with others. But religion? The last acceptable bigotry left -- homosexuals. And the religious nuts are lapping it up. Just mind your own business! The funniest part of this whole argument is that the religious nuts swear that letting gays marry will ruin THEIR marriages! If this is true, what a sorry, weak excuse for a marriage YOU have.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

Well, if a society accepts same sex marriage it is obvious that they will teach about gay marriage. When I was in first grade at my times they used to teach me that we have a Father and a Mother and that they love me. If, or I should say when California will have a legal gay marriage they will teach the kids about gay marriage as well. I think that is what LGBTs want to happen:full equality in society like in school. It is a pretty logical dynamic.

shell · 1 year ago

Do you live in Utah? And how old are you????? How bizarre to tell children
their father and mother love them. What about children from broken
families? (Yes, even Mormons have been known to divorce.) What about children with
only one parent, due to one parent dying? Even in Mormon households, some
parents die, don't they?

What a cruel and heartless thing to say to young children! But, as with
many things, I suspect you are LYING! Naughty Naughty!

And, if CA gets gay marriage, it will be exactly like it was for several
months, when it was legal in CA. Or, as in Massachusettes, where it has been
legal for years. As always, they will never teach them "about gay marriage."
That is a strange obsession with you. Methinks you imagine way too much!

You, my dear, are a liar. And you know where you go for lying? Not the top
level of heaven!


In a message dated 11/25/2008 12:41:26 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
writes:

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

I grew up in south Europe and I was in first grade in 1980.
If I were gay in a society with same sex marriage I would sue the school that teaches that marriage is between a man and a woman and does not mention gay marriage. And, you know what, I'd win the litigation.
Of course divorce like other bad thing happen in a marriage, that does not mean that we need to stop to believe in this fundamental form of unit.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

I was in public schools all my life and never did anyone teach me about marriage.

shanobama · 1 year ago

And if the Jews succeeded in passing a 'law' denying your right to baptize the dead? Or if they got a law passed making Saturday a day of rest? Or if the Catholics passed a law making your religion 'illegal' in a state? They would be a majority, right? And you would just have to obey.

If you really have some 'gay' friends, why would you not want them to form lasting and happy relationships, in love, and get the same rights and legal protections as everyone else?

FNReedie · 1 year ago

What comes next? Well, one possibilities is that we finally unleash the best resource we have ... ourselves. We know from experience that when we share our stories, we are able to help people understand the need for LGBT equality.

For that reason, two video production companies have come together to create and release online the Unlearning Homophobia Series. Our videos "Straight from the Heart", "All God’s Children", and "De Colores" have begun thousands of discussions that have ended with LGBTs helping straight folks understand the very personal impact of these discriminatory measures .The documentaries directly and specifically address issues of religion and homosexuality. The videos specifically target 3 distinct church-going communities: White, African American, and Latino. Take these videos home, start a conversation, change the world!!

To view the films, please visit: http://startaconversation.wetpaint.com

Paul William Tenny · 1 year ago

Posted here and sent via email:

Dig into historical data for the past four elections and find competitive races where a truly progressive candidate was defeated either in the primary, or in the general. Find out how many gay people live in the state or district for that state -- rough statistics will do just fine for the time being -- and if possible (and really this is critical) see if you can find out how many people *didn't* vote amongst the gay population.

If that number exceeds the margin of loss for the progressive, then you've got your answer.

If the netroots have proven anything, it's that you don't need to be the movement, you just have to be big enough to tip the balance. Lessons on the effectiveness of grass roots power are everywhere from Dean's 50-state-strategy to Obama's invigorating the black vote. Nothing is going to be as effective as maximizing your efficiency.

And if you want to go a step beyond that, I've always found it funny how conservatives get away with the craziest things by abusing definitions. It's hard to argue against something that *sounds* good so why can't two sides play at that game? Maybe people should forget about fighting against "traditional marriage" and gender definition amendments that are passing now. Maybe the thing to do is go out there and start passing some amendments of our own, using language and messages that *sound good* so that they are equally as hard to stop.

I don't know how that fight would turn out or how the language would read, but I'm sure that given some direction there are plenty of people with those types of skills that can carry the ball into the end zone.

Even if we can just induce a stalemate in the "war", for the time being, that's better than constantly losing all these battles.

SecretBYUBottomBoy · 1 year ago

I agree new leadership is needed. Why were Jeff Kors and Lori Jean taking multi-week VACATIONS during the summer of the campaign? Can we have new leaders? Puleeeze??

Forty2 · 1 year ago

We have leaders? Who are these people? I don't remember voting for Queen Bee.

If you mean the HRC, enough said. What a useless bunch of tools.

Topher · 1 year ago

I vote for Regina George.

red_dwarf · 1 year ago

A note for wandering Mormoms.

Live and let live brothers and sisters. Who are you to say that bigotry and homophobia are embraced by God? What rubish.

Of all the religions that will be quelched by Science over the next century Mormonism will be one of the first. Practice your religion, but leave us (non-Mormoms) alone. Thank you. And one other question, who in the hell asked you?

With regards to Prop 8 - NEVER in the history of America, nor is it sanctioned in the Constitution, that the majority through simple elections has the right to take away fundamental inalienable rights of the minority. That is why we have courts - they will decide what is constitutional or not - let's wait for next March when the Supreme Ct of California reaches a decision (anyone with any sense already knows the outcome).

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

Red dwarf, I am just saying that for the LGBT either we agree with you or we are just bigots. That is like to say you cannot have a different opinion from mine. I am confident that the Supreme Court will respect the rule of law.
It happens in all the democracies that when courts take some controversial decisions the legislature, or the people with a referendum, pass a bill to redefine and clarify some aspects of the law.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Yeah, its not like when we boycott you all that you claim 'blacklist' or start whining about how we are bigots or hateful or anything. Oh, I forgot, that is exactly what you all are doing. So I guess you have constitutional rights but we don't. I wonder why we are so pissed-off at your attitude?

shanobama · 1 year ago

My opinion is that the Mormons have acted as a political funding block and should lose their tax exempt status.

I want this to be the law of the land. Would you like this bill to pass?

therepguy · 1 year ago

It time to take the fight to the strange community... if they will not give us marriage then why should they have it either?

Its time to repeal the marriage license for all in favor of universal based civil union document for all!

After all the history of the marriage license show that its purpose in government was to first prove an additional revenue source and later severed as a public health control device. In other words leave the marriage issue to the church where it belongs and give everyone the right to love who we want...

Just a through or two

therepguy · 1 year ago

It's also time that the Mormons and other mega-churches loose their tax free status!

Older_Wiser · 1 year ago

This is why the US is not a simple democracy. With all their faults (esp. the issues of slavery and the lack of voting rights for every single person), the Founders knew the dangers of mob rule. It's the reason we have a Constitution with its Bill of Rights that must be a living document to ensure the rights of every individual, no matter how "different" from the majority.

Religion, in spite of itself, has no such guarantees, and it should never be allowed to overrule the laws we have established under the Constitution and which we amend whenever necessary to ensure the rights of all.

Barbaricino · 1 year ago

Laws and the rights provided by them always change, there is nothing extraordinary in that. However, you made some good points in your comment. Anyway, the case in California is whether marry somebody of your own sex is a "right". Not even the UN declaration on Human rights says that gay marriage is a right. Even in highly tolerant society like in ancient Greece or during the Roman empire, where gays held important positions, same sex marriage was permitted.It is society that decide what is a "right" or not and the "ultimate way" to do this is the law. We are not talking about if gay should be allowed to go to the same restaurant of the straights. Most people in the black community actually doesn't like the association between the 60 human right movement and the protests on same sex marriage. Since a right is decide by the community, it is acceptable that a law settles the case. Of course judges interpret the law...but at the end the real battleground is not in a court or in a poll but in the mass media. However, a man made law will never change God's law about marriage, what is in the bible stays.

Older_Wiser · 1 year ago

Go away. Not everyone answers to a "god." I'm a realist who will never allow pie in the sky rhetoric to shake my own thinking that we are simply animals capable of thought who are earth based, and are born, live and die on our only mother, Earth (unless, of course, you're an astronaut). We are here for a short time and should make the best of it since it's all we have. Do you have enough imagination to wonder if we all thought this, it would be a better life for everyone? Probably not, since all religions believe in some form of "redemption" and "afterlife" and some, like your own, believe in a "previous life." What utterly delusional bullshit.

Milli · 1 year ago

So are we allowed an opinion on who you chose, or choose, to marry? Instead of merely applying for a marriage license and receiving one, you should have to fill out an application and have it approved by the voters in the next election. Personally, I don't like tall people marrying short people. So you better be the same height or I'm coming for ya.

Then there's the whole issue of how you have sex while in the throes of wedlock. We all, as a society, need to make sure that all heterosexual couples aren't having sex in a way that offends the authors of the Old Testament (cameras in every bedroom?), even though this country supposedly grants us the right to live free from its influences.

shanobama · 1 year ago

You can believe the Bible, and adhere to its 'law', but to force your beliefs on others would create a Theocracy. This is a civil rights issue, not a Biblical philosophical issue. In the United States, all people are equal under the law.

Denying GLBT people the right to marry is inequality. You have no business telling people who they can fall in love with. And you are denying the sciences and biology. A certain percentage of humans are born 'gay', you might say God made them that way. 'Twas ever thus.

The compassionate Christian act would be to recognize their equal rights under the civil law of the land to have the same right to marry and mange their private lives as everyone else does in this nation. To do otherwise is bigotry.

Aman-About-Town.com · 1 year ago

My favorite sign at the rallies thus far: "If you didn't want your kids to learn about gay marriage... You should have left us alone!"

icruise · 1 year ago

"We need a real campaign, a real war, real strategies - mean, nasty, vicious and, above all else, effective strategies targeted at achieving a concrete goal that moves our movement, moves our rights, forward."

I don't claim to have any answers, but thinking back on the civil rights movement, the three words that I would NOT use to describe it are "mean, nasty, and vicious." Is that really the best way to win people over?

Jamesin Canada · 1 year ago

Just from the first comment I see I can tell I'm not alone in this.. but it bears repeating... If the past 100 years have taught us anything, John, it's that mean, nasty and vicious eventually fail. Gandhi and King did not win with bombs or guns, we all know, but more importantly they also didn't win with disrespect. As for a leader stepping up, we need someone who can quell this madness... protesting churches? boycotting private individuals? We need someone who will speak to the rational and just part of our collective conscious. The community is hurting, prop 8 was a setback and an insult, but people like you, John, aren't helping us find a solution with nasty rhetoric. Your republican party wonk roots are showing, and its not attractive.

APsychGuy · 1 year ago

When did our country forget that the intention of separation of church and state was to protect religion, not to bring it down? Here's a letter from a pretty smart guy you may have heard of, his name is Thomas Jefferson.

-----------------

Mr. President

To messers Nehemiah Dodge, Ephraim Robbins, & Stephen S. Nelson a committee of the Danbury Baptist association in the state of Connecticut.

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.

-----------------------

Call it hate, call it what you want, but mormons and other churches have the constitutional right to believe what they want. And in no way did they go beyond their rights. Also, I find it completely amusing that you choose mormons to scream at, when they total what, 1% of the population of CA? I'm thinking you just wanted to find an easy target - it's probably not easy to target blacks or catholics, is it?

Milli · 1 year ago

The Mormons paid for this witchhunt. Yeah, they deserve this. They have the Constitutional right to believe what they want but they don't have the right to force their views on others. I have a constitutional right to believe that organized religion is a bunch of cultish bullshit but I can't and shouldn't have the right to go and dismantle them. They helped take away certain people's civil rights. They have broken up families that once had the legal protections to ensure that they can stay a family, and for what? So they could sleep easier at night? The price that gay couples are now paying for their "religious freedom" is appalling. A lifelong partner falls ill and they don't have a say in that partners medical care. A surviving partner may lose all contact with the deceased person's biological child without argument. All of this so the Mormons can claim some false sense of validation from an invisible diety? Fuck them. They deserve this. And yes, Catholicism plays a part in this too. As for your comment on blacks - they didn't organize this. Minority groups were targeted by the Prop 8 people - extensively. Their campaigns were sleazy and nasty - telling voters that Obama himself didn't want legal protections for gay couples (which is untrue). They ran commercials about how innocent schoolchildren were going to be indoctrinated with the evil gay agenda. I don't blame voters for this, I blame the people who concocted this whole thing. Religious freedom my ass. They are bullies, hypocrites, and an insult to the very man they claim to worship. This isn't even an issue that should have been put up for public vote (the tyranny of the majority). Thats where they system failed us and it needs to be changed.

No one is asking the Mormons to give up their religious beliefs. All we are asking is for them to stop fucking up strangers PERSONAL lives.

APsychGuy · 1 year ago

"No one is asking the Mormons to give up their religious beliefs."

That's where you're wrong. Sure, maybe in the short term no one is asking for that, but how long before gay couples start demanding to be married by mormon bishops? In mormon temples?

You miss the entire issue. This was never about mormons trying to beat down gays, this was about mormons defending their own right to practice their religion as they please without the government forcing them to perform actions that go against their beliefs. And don't give me the argument that 'no one will force them to do anything'. That's a load of BS, it's already happening around the world and in Massachusetts.

Milli · 1 year ago

Bullshit. You are missing the issue entirely. The Mormons didn't defend themselves from anything. They invaded the private lives of other people, in another state, who they never met or know nothing about. NO ONE is asking the Mormon Church or any other church to perform gay marriages. NO ONE. If thats where you think this gay marriage issue is going you are WRONG. The Mormons inserted themselves into an issue that should have been left to the government and its citizens period. No pastor or priest should have a say in what goes on in the secular realm of this country. Our Constitution, ideally, is supposed to protect people from the religious will of others. Contrary to what you and they claim, marriage IS an issue separate from religion. Marriages don't have to be done with the blessing of a particular religion in order to be legal does it? Well no one is asking the Mormon Church to bless these marriages!! Gay couples just want to live their lives together with the full legal protections that heterosexual couples have. They want to raise families together with the full legal protections that heterosexual couples have. There is no conspiracy to force churches to marry gays as these churches proclaim. If gay members of a particular church want to challenge their religious leaders on this issue thats something to be dealt within the confines of that church hierarchy, but thats and entirely separate issue than what we're discussing here. This issue has nothing to do with the getting the stamp of approval from any church, it has to do with whether ALL U.S. citizens have the Constitutional right to marry who they wish. Period. Organized religion has no say in this.

And I'm sorry, if gays have to fight to be married, then its only fair that heterosexuals should have to fight to be married as well. Let your community vote on who you can fall in love with and build a life with. Put your engagement right on the ballot and let your neighbors vote on it. If they don't like the particular person you chose, too bad. You lose. That's constitutional isn't it?

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Ditto what Milli said - NO CHURCH HAS BEEN FORCED TO PERFORM A MARRIAGE THAT IT DOES NOT CONDONE, INCLUDING MARRIAGE BETWEEN HETEROSEXUALS. For example, if one leaves the Catholic church, one cannot marry in the Catholic church. Oh, and 99% of us would not want to marry in a church that has issues with us. Fucking Mormon piece of shit idiot. Go have sex with your wife-nieces and leave us alone.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

And we have the constitutional right to boycott all Mormon-owned businesses because you all were donated the most money to Yes on 8. That you are an 'easy target' because of your creepy beliefs is irrelevant, except it makes going after you all fun. Buh bye, Mormons.

APsychGuy · 1 year ago

If boycotting mormon-owned businesses was all you were doing that'd be just fine.

eclare · 1 year ago

"When did our country forget that the intention of separation of church and state was to protect religion, not to bring it down?"

You are sort of correct, but miss a crucial point: namely that the only way to protect all religious freedom is to prevent any and all religious entanglements in government. The establishment clause prohibits the government from establishing a national religion. This includes showing any preference for one religion over the other. The Mormon Church has the right to BELIEVE whatever they want, but they (along with the Catholic Church and other Fundamentalists Sects - yeah, I said it) have effectively used the government to force their own religious beliefs onto the rest of the state. To quote the letter your so thoughtfully included "the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions." Not only has Proposition 8 forced the government to deny a completely secular right to American citiziens, it has also denied many more inclusive churches the right to marry gay and lesbian couples. Seems like a clear preference of one or more religions over others.

APsychGuy · 1 year ago

You conveniently forget again and again that the church itself funded nothing. The members were the contributers, not the church itself. The church went as far as to urge its members to take action, that is all.

As for denying other churches the 'right' to marry gay and lesbian couples, that's perfectly fine when they believe that the non-passage of 8 would lead to a loss of their own rights - I'm guessing you've read the Yes on 8's 'six consequences if Prop 8 doesn't pass'. Whether you believe the six consequences or not, the church does, and since they do, then it's well within their right to defend prop 8, out of defense of their beliefs.

Indigo · 1 year ago

Gay people want change. But politics, like war, best achieves its goals when someone with experience and vision is at the helm. And for whatever reason, no one is stepping up."
I'm not so sure, John. The gay people want to talk about change but not much change is happening. Why is that? Because we've got good jobs and we're comfortable and HRC is more of a social club that discusses current events than it is an acitivist group working for change. As for the need for leaders? The first thing we need to do is follow the example that has not yet been set by the Big Three Automotive boards and toss the current set of mooching leaders off the bus. Detroit's CEOs jet to D.C. to inform the Congress that they have to give the CEOs more cash. HRC throws a cocktail party to raise funds among the DuPont Circle Set. Oh, my! You want change? You want leaders? Get ornery! Get into the streets and rip them up! Stonewall was not a tea-dance, it was a street riot! I think your generalization is wrong, gay people today are not working for change, they are working for comfort and conformity. This isn't just the end of the decade. This is the end of the world as the guppies knew it.

JoAnn · 1 year ago

John - I wrote to you some time ago recommending a Al Giordano's blog. Because of him, I ordered and read Alinsky's book "Rules for Radicals." I would strongly advise anyone who is contemplating either a widespread or a targeted movement for change to study it carefully. There are probably more recent books on such movements, but this one is eye opening and seminal. It's tenets were probably the basis for Obama's early efforts in community organizing and more recent triumphs of organization on a national level.

ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith) · 1 year ago

Go mean and nasty and you will lose this fight, and the backlash will be pretty harsh. All those who are kind of moderate, or even ambivalent (who you really need for support), will be afraid and fall back to what most of us where taught growing up, that being gay is somehow bad. I'm not saying it's right, but it reflects the reality that a lot of the population grew up with.

The one thing this last campaign SHOULD have taught all the causeheads in this country is that you have two choices, you can win, or you can play to your side. Obama won not because he played to the far left, he won because he played to the internal desire for all Americans to get answers, to feel the America we have been taught to believe is possible. Arguably, McCain lost because he tried too hard to court the right and didn't do enough to court the nation. The fight for gay equality IS a fight for the same human rights as everyone else and part of the plan SHOULD be to get the rest of the population to see that, not through intimidation, but through education and advocacy.

While the visceral feeling of righteous anger is intoxicating, 10 years from now we'll be holding post-mortems about how the cause went so wrong so fast. Now is the time for discipline, control, and a cohesive unified message, not a bunch of people with pitchforks and torches ready to storm the proverbial gates.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Obama won because the economy tanked. He ran a great campaign but if the Dow was still at 14,000, the 'Hussein' ads would have been effective on our mostly ignorant electorate. Trying to convince 'people of faith' that their beliefs are not reasonable isn't going to work. We have to reduce the influence of 'faith' in politics and society. I isn't going to be easy, but if we give them enough rope, they'll do it for us.

NealB · 1 year ago

There are twenty states that still have anti-sodomy laws on the books: Alabama, Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, North Carolina, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Tennessee, Utah, Virginia. Most of these statutes target gays only.

Except for these places, I'm not persuaded that gays can't live married lives of their own making. I admit that I find heterosexual marriage to be a confounded, largely absurd thing; so it's hard for me to understand why so many gays want it for themselves. But, if we want it so badly (and I'm supportive of those of us that do), just do it. My partner and I have been sharing our lives together for the better part of twenty years. We own a house together, care for each other in sickness and in health and have no plans to part before we die. Granted, we live in Wisconsin, the first state to pass gay rights legislation (over twenty years ago), so we have that advantage. I don't honestly think we've got it worse than our married siblings and friends because we don't have a license. In many respects, I think we've got it better. If it's something the Mormons think they need to approve for me, I sure as hell don't want it. Fuck them and their out-dated definition of marriage. They, and heterosexuals of all creeds and colors can keep it.

eclare · 1 year ago

Neal, what happens if, god forbid, you or your partner becomes ill or incapicated. Have you set up a power of attorney so that the other can make health care decisions? What about hospital visits. Have you written your wills to ensure that you each will inherit in case the worst happens? Do you have any joint property? How will it be divided if you break up?

Legal marriage creates an automatic default answer to all these questions. An unmarried couple can certainly arrange all of these things by contract but it's complicated and EXPENSIVE, not to mention that these contracts are never airtight and can often be challenged by other family members.

Maybe there are no real emotional advantages to marriage, but the legal advantages are REAL.


ETA: Although 20 states may still have anti-sodomy laws on the books, those laws have all been invalidated by Lawrence v. Texas, and cannot be enforced.

SharonB · 1 year ago

Cannot be enforced....

...unless the Supreme Court reverses itself in a 5-4 the next time this comes up.

THE MAIN REASON I WILL NEVER VOTE REPUBLICAN, EVER!!!!!!

inlrar · 1 year ago

"real strategies - mean, nasty, vicious and, above all else, effective strategies targeted at achieving a concrete goal"

WOW! You're HOT! I just fell in love with you John.

Sparks · 1 year ago

In reading the comments posted so far I had a thought. I'm not a lawyer but can something be done along the lines of the Southern Poverty Law Center's work with the KKK and the other hate groups that they watch? I would support any effort that was organized to stop the money flow to the anti groups.

moonglum · 1 year ago

John, you are constently decryign the lack of leadership...hopeign that some heor will step up and take the rains, lead the movement forward....


Ask yourself, why haven't you. its the moment that makles the hero...step up john, sholder teh burden adn charge forwared...There is a need fo a leader, why not you.

Mike · 1 year ago

Here are some thoughts... and a place to carry the conversation further.

http://50statestrategy.blogspot.com/2008/11/new...

http://administrativia.blogspot.com/2008/11/con...

aravir · 1 year ago

John, I had the same thought, independently, that moonglum posted a bit over half an hour ago. I remember you from your days as a forum host for US Politics. You have the experience, you have the passion, and you have the status. In the words of Hillel:
“If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?”
Seize the moment.

bluemole · 1 year ago

FWIW, Go to http://www.utah.travel and order all their lits. Send them wherever, give a bogus email. It will cost them a few bucks, plus will skew their tourism projections.

Just a small thing, but real easy

I spent a year in SLC one week. Creepiest city in America

First Last · 1 year ago

Let's get a national movement going to pass a federal Anti-Discrimination law. Besides DADT we need to repeal DOMA. The Mormons are a good start but let's also take on the federal government and demand that we stop being legal second class citizens.

Boycottutah · 1 year ago

"Gay people want change. But politics, like war, best achieves its goals when someone with experience and vision is at the helm. And for whatever reason, no one is stepping up."

But those "experienced leaders" in the LGBT community failed us miserably. The power of the demonstrations came from a grassroots effort lead by average individuals who are sick and tired of being second class citizens. Perhaps we need to find new leaders. This movement galvanized itself and unified the LGBT community more than the HRC social club ever did. ACTUP was more like this grassroots movement we are now experiencing than HRC and the other soft around the middle established gay rights knitting circles.

JetSetter · 1 year ago

"We need a real campaign, a real war, real strategies - mean, nasty, vicious and, above all else, effective strategies targeted at achieving a concrete goal that moves our movement, moves our rights, forward."

I am sorry that we were all asleep at the wheel before Prop 8 was passed. The outcome could have been different. I think we I think we were all lulled into complacency thinking that because we live in areas where gays an lesbians are (for the most part) accepted and didn't understand that the hate was being paid for and imported from neighboring red states. A huge part of my displeasure about the outcome is that although my friends and neighbors may have voted incorrectly (having spoken to many of them, those who voted yes did so to protect their children, not to harm gays - which wa a failure of our side to allow the yes side to frame the debate)

I agree that a real campaign is necessary, but I don't believe mean, nasty, vicious strategies are wanted. I'd prefer smart, witty and devastatingly effective strategies. Ones that get more and more people on our side. I don't want to hurt these folks, they're my neighbors. I do want to educate them and change their minds.

Boycottutah · 1 year ago

"I agree that a real campaign is necessary, but I don't believe mean, nasty, vicious strategies are wanted. I'd prefer smart, witty and devastatingly effective strategies. Ones that get more and more people on our side. I don't want to hurt these folks, they're my neighbors. I do want to educate them and change their minds."

Well said. I also think that a boycott, used to dry out the funding of hatred along with education will be most effective. When the LGBT community sucessfully reduced consumption of Florida oranges after Anita Bryant waged war on us, we discovered the power our community has.
Boycotts allow a broad voice to be heard. One doesn't even need to "come out" to boycott.
Boycotts also put the fear of G- I mean money into those who make a living promoting the anti-gay industry.

homogenius · 1 year ago

It's time to set a deadline. Set a date by which LGBT people have full civil rights or we opt out. Get millions of LGBT people to sign a pledge. When the deadline is reached (Let's say five years from now), we all stop paying taxes. We all conduct civil disobedience. We all get in our cars at 5 am M-F and drive the rush-hour freeways endlessly, slowly, back and forth and bring rush hour to a standstill and again from 3pm until evening. We ride back and forth on subway trains in downtown clogging trains and stations. The same with buses. We circle the arrival and departure loop at airports. And we drive endlessly and slowly around neighborhoods with churches when worship services and weddings are scheduled (which I think we should already be doing). We stop all discretionary spending. We do everything we can to stop participating in society and get our friends and family to do the same. We refuse to serve anyone who does not wear a button or pin promoting LGBT freedom and equality.

Blacks boycotted the city buses. Women chained themselves to the White House fence. People with Disabilities have chained themselves to inaccessible buses. People of all causes for justice have held sit-ins and boycotts. It's time to get committed to LGBT freedom, justice, and equality. It's time to get serious. It's time to say "enough".

JetSetter · 1 year ago

I'm down with the others here when I say "John, it's time to put paid to all the hard work you've done."

"John Aravosis is a Washington DC-based writer and political expert, specializing in using the Internet for politics. He is also the editor of AMERICAblog, one of America's top political blogs with nearly 900,000 unique monthly visitors. John has a joint law degree and masters in foreign service from Georgetown, where he studied under former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. John's writing experience includes having worked as a stringer for the Economist magazine and RADAR, and his policy experience includes stints in the US Senate, the World Bank, and the Children's Defense Fund. John is also an occasional TV pundit, and has appeared on The O'Reilly Factor, Hardball with Chris Matthews, ABC News, CNN, Court TV, and more. John speaks five languages and has visited or worked in 28 countries."

Susan B. Anthony, Martin Luther King, John Aravosis...

If not now, when. If not you, who?

Let's start a Draft John movement.

Mike · 1 year ago

How come nobody has written a comprehensive piece on HRC and what a bogus piece of shit ill-run organization it is?

Rob · 1 year ago

I had an argument with an HRC "volunteer" last week when they wanted to put me on a payment donation schedule. He claimed they can manage their budget better if they know for sure how much will be coming in monthly from people. "The money," he explained goes for paying for phone call services and mailings. I told him that I was already aware of what HRC was doing and recently made 2 donations prior to the election. He didn't seem to understand that I was saying "I think this is a waste of money."

I agree with what "inlrar" said.... My boyfriend and I both think you're hot!!!