AMERICAblog: Nobel economist Stiglitz, key Senate Democrats, criticize Obama stimulus plan as wrong-headed, not enough
teresaInPa
· 10 months ago
it looks just lijke dubya's stimulus plan to me. Please tell me what the difference is between Dubya and Obama so far? One has darker skin? Where is the great CHANGE that is supposed to happen? We elected a black man and that is change enough I suppose.
hist0ryrepeats
· 10 months ago
Yep. Dubya redux. Useless as it was, emailed change.gov just to vent about this vapid waste. Gee, a month's rent? 1/20th of a New Car? I will donate my pointless refund to Oxfam or Human Rights Watch. Otherwise, it'd kinda feel like accepting a dirty political payoff.
Sad that it seems almost impossible to enact Thoreau's Civil Disobedience option. Refusing to pay taxes to fund Bush &co when they invaded Iraq, for instance... wouldn't it have been cool to really feel like your hands were clean?
Older_Wiser
· 10 months ago
Thanks for picking up on that, John. My sentiments exactly. For too many people, it will just mean another couple of lattes or a more expensive lunch because it leaves out tens of millions of people who could actually use an extra $50 a month. To many who would get it, it's just chump change. I'd much rather see it go to job creation which will be far more beneficial.
John Aravosis
· 10 months ago
Actually, I think I read that they're figuring out some kind of EITC fix, or something, so that even people who don't pay taxes will get money out of this - I think. And even so, I'm sorry, I don't care how poor you are, $19 is chump change.
ezpz
· 10 months ago
Nancy Pelosi was adamant too:
"..Pelosi noted that the Congressional Budget Office has determined that the tax cuts are the biggest contributor to the ballooning deficit. "Put me down as clearly as you possibly can as one who wants to have those tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans repealed," she said...."
In my opinion Pelosi is a traitor to this country. She alone, or so she says, made the decision to table the Impeachment of Bush. History will view that as a criminal act. Her opinion matters nothing to me. However, having said that, it does make sense to require the top 1% of Americans who hold 50% of the wealth to pay their share.
Oh, that's right. The thousands of American who died and worked their asses off for our freedoms did so because they wanted 50% of their effort/blood spilt for the rich.
Democracy? What a joke.
Bush_Bites
· 10 months ago
I'm ambivalent about it, frankly.
A handout here or there doesn't really bother me if it will help Obama pass the stimulus and assuage his sense of fairness.
I'm more concerned with getting the marginal rates back to what they were under Clinton.
But, I'll agree, 40 percent sounds high.
scottinsf
· 10 months ago
Including Krugman, that makes two Nobel winning economists in the past day that are criticizing Obama's stimulus plan.
dudeabides22
· 10 months ago
Admit it John, you made a huge mistake supporting Obama over Hillary. Now you have to live with the consequences. Hillary would have been an amazing President. Obama's going to be a colossal failure and doom the party in 2010 midterm election.
John Aravosis
· 10 months ago
Joe and I talked about this today. Hillary's people were as bad then as Obama's are now. We'd be just as concerned - we were just as concerned about hear long before.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
I think this plan is DOA for anyone serious about stimulus versus more of the same. Obama and crew wants to prove their "moderate" bona fides by enacting a shit plan that will not help the American people. The more I think about it, the more annoyed I am becoming. Its not where close to any plan that they a) were describing themselves (so its a capitulation before even fighting) and b) that any economist has said would work under these conditions. The later being the reason I am pissed off. Essentially they let the Republican minority, before the fight ha even started, hoodwink them into something that will lose Democratic support. Stupid. Stupid. Stupid. Negotiation 101. Don't lose the supportyou do have trying to obtain support that doesn't matter. One is symbolict, and the other (democratic leadership is critical). Again. just plain stupid. On a strategic level- I just dont get what they were thinking. But then After Warren I am really starting to see the cracks in Obama's leadership style. It's like they are sitll in campaign mode versus governing mode.
Bush Bites
· 10 months ago
Agree.
They came out promising too much tax relief.
Should have cut it in half so they'd have bargaining room to go up if necessary.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
I had this conversation with an Obamabot in the primaries. I did not support Obama until after the primaries for exactly this sort of fucked up negotiation style.
I gave him a simple analogy about why obama's process for negotiation is fucked up.
This was my thesis as to my problem with Obama:
If you are looking in ordinary business for the price point (the point where a deal can be made) to be $5, but the opposing party wants it closer to zero, you don't start with $5. You start with $10.00. If you start with $10, you are more likely to get five. His negotiating style starts at $5.
My friend got mad. started yelling at me, and did the normal liberal democrat thing of saying "that's stupid. No one is going to give you $10, and if you start at such a stupid negotiation point, you aren't going to get anything at all." That's the Obamabot's mentality in a nutshell. They assume they aren't going to get anything and thus low ball the negotiation. They don't fight for it at all.
Of course, what will happen now is that the GOP will still fight Obama on this. Say that they have a problem with the plan, and require more concessions. This crappy plan will get worse, not better, unless Congressional Dems are willing to fight the new party leader on this. The GOP will obstruct, and hope to keep the economy bad through the mid terms of next year so that they can run on the economy against Obama and the Democrats.
They , like me, probably have seen that economists have said that this recession /depression could last anywhere from 1 to 5 years depending on the steps taken under Kensian type spending to stop it. That's the context.
So, we start at 5 rather than 10, and thus, we will not get even 5. That's the reason democrats are failures.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 10 months ago
the campaign was 90% smart. post campaign has been 90% stupid. painfully stupid. i'd give a year of my stimulus money to understand what happened.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
They were campaigning against insane. It's easier to look good when you got that as your opponent.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 10 months ago
maybe that's the answer. both Hillary and McCain/Palin were too inept to seriously test obama. the real test is now.
Rab
· 10 months ago
His stimulus plan looks like shit. Oh man, crappy ideas and he's not even in office yet. Obama feels the need to help out millionaires, not another repug-lite I HOPE.
ATLKaren
· 10 months ago
Geez, Conyers is trashing the lousy Sanjay Gupta pick publicly, Dem senators are rightfully up in arms about the proposed stimulus package. Then there's Obama's needless dissing of Feinstein, the needless insult of the Rick Warren pick., the needless snub of Howard Dean and I'm probably forgetting some other insults. Obama isn't even sworn in and he seems to be hell bent on insulting most of his natural constituencies. Doesn't he know he's supposed to flip the bird to the other team, not Dems? This administration hasn't officially started and they seem to be sh*tting the bed.
red_dwarf
· 10 months ago
Sheisting the bed - haven't heard that one in a while. Excellent analogy ATL.
Jay Randal
· 10 months ago
$10 a week or $20 for a two week paycheck is plain paltry. A couple gets twice that so about $80 a month. This looks like chump change money to buy some groceries at Wal-Marts or to eat at McDonald's. If you are unemployed or self-employed you get nothing. Next time you see a Congressman take a twenty bill out of your pocket, spit on it, and then throw it at him or her.
Jake In Music City
· 10 months ago
My husband and I pay $1200 a month for our health insurance. We are self-employed and have not used our health insurance for more than yearly physicals, my mammogram, et. al. for a decade. If Obama wants to give us some true money to put into this economy, fix healthcare.
And second, I will gladly give up my $20 a week so that in joining forces with 2000 like minded individuals,our combined $40K can give someone somewhere a job building infrastructure or in green technology and that person can then make a salary, buy some clothes, maybe buy a car, go on a vacation, pay taxes, and put some real money into this economy. It is jobs, jobs, jobs that this country desperately needs....tax cuts didn't work six months ago,and they will not work now...and we've got two nobel prize winning economists telling us that. Plus we can use the infrastructure they build for a generation to come.
I hope Pelosi and the House and the Dem's in the Senate roll him on this.
lpeggy
· 10 months ago
New Politico poll reports that 79 percent of Americans favor Obama's stimulus, versus just 17 percent opposed.
60% don't believe in evolution. Not a hard hitting argument (not that I'm an economic expert) - nothing personal but the majority of Americans hardly have a clue what's really happening.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
Their views are based on liking Obama. This is the same public that for years gave Bush the benefit of the doubt. Obama is not Bush. But we can read nothing from these numbers other than they generallyw ant to support the new President.
red_dwarf
· 10 months ago
Has Obama done a single thing since he has been President-elect that one could argue was an "independent" decision based on principle?
The rePigs don't like him. He's nearly ran off the liberal base of his party (except those progressives who are not offended by homophobic bigots given the spot light on inaugaration day). Oh what the hell, were stuck with him for 4 years and I think we all agree he is at least smarter then Bush.
Great President? I wouldn't bet 2 cents on it.
dula
· 10 months ago
The baby steps of a Centrist are not gonna cut it.
SCLiberal
· 10 months ago
Why are the Democrats so concerned about what Republicans think? It's as if "Republican" is the default setting. For God's sake, push a progressive agenda and let the other party vote against it. Show them for the obstrutionists they are. Do it constantly and loudly. And why won't anyone on the Hill point out what is obvious to us all: Republicans pushed a bank bailout at warp speed with no oversight, no discussion, and no results—but they drag their feet when it comes to helping auto workers or the American public. Why won't any Democrat say that out loud? How can these people be THAT afraid for their jobs? Hell, if they only get one term they still have a better "retirement" plan than most Americans have while they are still working. God, I SO sick of it all.
Milli
· 10 months ago
Oh my God people, he isn't even sworn in yet.
cwazycajun
· 10 months ago
As opposed to mccain Im glad its obama...but he has shown so far that he the same ole same ole.. he has already under the guise of bi partisanship bowed down to the MINORITY rethugs he doesnt need to do that ..they have enough votes to pass what they need to in the senate because the retugs up for re-election in 2010 will want to keep there jobs and dont want to be seen as obstructing obama;s plan if america really wanted things to change for the better and not half to bow down to the corprate dems or rethugs and do our biusness we should have demanded KUCINICH the only one that called for the bush admin to be held accountable the only one that said no to the war and patriot act ect ect obama I hope does the rite thing but Im not gonna hold my breath and I voted for him
All Comments
Sad that it seems almost impossible to enact Thoreau's Civil Disobedience option. Refusing to pay taxes to fund Bush &co when they invaded Iraq, for instance... wouldn't it have been cool to really feel like your hands were clean?
"..Pelosi noted that the Congressional Budget Office has determined that the tax cuts are the biggest contributor to the ballooning deficit. "Put me down as clearly as you possibly can as one who wants to have those tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans repealed," she said...."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/08/pelosi...
Oh, that's right. The thousands of American who died and worked their asses off for our freedoms did so because they wanted 50% of their effort/blood spilt for the rich.
Democracy? What a joke.
A handout here or there doesn't really bother me if it will help Obama pass the stimulus and assuage his sense of fairness.
I'm more concerned with getting the marginal rates back to what they were under Clinton.
But, I'll agree, 40 percent sounds high.
They came out promising too much tax relief.
Should have cut it in half so they'd have bargaining room to go up if necessary.
I gave him a simple analogy about why obama's process for negotiation is fucked up.
This was my thesis as to my problem with Obama:
If you are looking in ordinary business for the price point (the point where a deal can be made) to be $5, but the opposing party wants it closer to zero, you don't start with $5. You start with $10.00. If you start with $10, you are more likely to get five. His negotiating style starts at $5.
My friend got mad. started yelling at me, and did the normal liberal democrat thing of saying "that's stupid. No one is going to give you $10, and if you start at such a stupid negotiation point, you aren't going to get anything at all." That's the Obamabot's mentality in a nutshell. They assume they aren't going to get anything and thus low ball the negotiation. They don't fight for it at all.
Of course, what will happen now is that the GOP will still fight Obama on this. Say that they have a problem with the plan, and require more concessions. This crappy plan will get worse, not better, unless Congressional Dems are willing to fight the new party leader on this. The GOP will obstruct, and hope to keep the economy bad through the mid terms of next year so that they can run on the economy against Obama and the Democrats.
They , like me, probably have seen that economists have said that this recession /depression could last anywhere from 1 to 5 years depending on the steps taken under Kensian type spending to stop it. That's the context.
So, we start at 5 rather than 10, and thus, we will not get even 5. That's the reason democrats are failures.
And second, I will gladly give up my $20 a week so that in joining forces with 2000 like minded individuals,our combined $40K can give someone somewhere a job building infrastructure or in green technology and that person can then make a salary, buy some clothes, maybe buy a car, go on a vacation, pay taxes, and put some real money into this economy. It is jobs, jobs, jobs that this country desperately needs....tax cuts didn't work six months ago,and they will not work now...and we've got two nobel prize winning economists telling us that. Plus we can use the infrastructure they build for a generation to come.
I hope Pelosi and the House and the Dem's in the Senate roll him on this.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/01/on-stimu...
The rePigs don't like him. He's nearly ran off the liberal base of his party (except those progressives who are not offended by homophobic bigots given the spot light on inaugaration day). Oh what the hell, were stuck with him for 4 years and I think we all agree he is at least smarter then Bush.
Great President? I wouldn't bet 2 cents on it.
How can these people be THAT afraid for their jobs? Hell, if they only get one term they still have a better "retirement" plan than most Americans have while they are still working.
God, I SO sick of it all.