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No it is not too early to be annoyed :) Matt Lauer, on the Today show yesterday, called Clinton on these statements. He forced her to point out that she is counting in Florida and Michigan. It was a thing of beauty to watch.
Not only does she resort to dirty, vicious, political tactics against her own
party candidate, like a true Rethuglican, she also does not know to do simple MATH.
It seems her entire gang, including the naive, who support her,
cannot do simple math and live in some kind of unrealistic world.
They keep moving the goal post to suit their deficits.
Obama leads in EVERY way, and they cannot comprehend that.
Desperation has made Hillary and Bill say everything against what
Democrats believe in.
Now, of course, according to the RealClearPolitics total, Clinton still "wins" the popular vote in the sense of "more people have voted for me" if you include those caucus states, Florida, and Michigan. BUT, for this to be the case, you have to make one very dubious assumption:
You must assume that less than 5% of those 'Uncommitted' votes in Michigan were expressions of support for Obama. Anything more than 5% and Obama is the leader.
Regardless, North Carolina will obliterate Clinton's argument on even the most dubious metric.
How is this any better than what they are doing?
No one here is saying Clinton is an America-hating commie pinko terrorist, like the Republican ad running on Clinton's behalf in North Carolina is saying about Obama.
We're just pointing out that she is making a self-contradictory argument based on false premises.
And, why on earth would we as democrats want to disenfranchise two states that we will need to win in November?
This is Howard Dean's mess. He needs to be replaced.
And, if Hillary is the nominee, would you really not vote for her? Would you really throw your vote away, or God forbid, vote for McCain? Really?
Oh, and a btw the way - she didn't just SIGN the pledge agreement. She's on the friggin policy committee that decided the sanctions for FL and MI and was in full agreement when those sanctions were announced.
Your analysis is 10 years old and currently inaccurate. All I see are repubs kissing Clinton's feet with praise and taking shots at Obama. This tells me what I already knew, the masters that the repubs dance for have bough and paid for Clinton long ago.
Someone needs to ask her straight forward WHY she signed an agreement last year that says she would abide by the DNC position but this year is ignoring it. " Clinton math " is going to become another catch phrase going forward to describe fuzzy dealings.
Time to get new MSM news. If we have to listen to this Rev. Wright sh*t until November, I won't even turn the stations on. I'm sick of Rovian tactics. We have listened to them for the last 8 years. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
maybe the "something important" is a realization that America needs a new party. two years ago the dems were given a chance in Congress to change the direction of the country, and to challenge Bush and his fellow bandits. they refrained from leadership. during this primary season the dems had the opportunity to offer America some hope and confidence. they are determined instead to form a circular firing squad. and the so-called leaders and elders of the party remain silent.
the Obama campaign has given voice to a long dormant vision of a renewed America, and this vision is not going to be dormant any longer. such a hopeful vision, once associated with the Democratic party is scorned by the current party machinery, because the current machine has lost its way and no longer believes in democracy, equality, or social progress.
if Obama is shut down, or more likely, if the party machinery continues to allow him to fend for himself (in their silence) while Hillary plays on racist stereotypes, invokes terrorism fears, and continues to do everything she can not just to win, but to destroy him. (and he can not really strike back...imagine how reactions to the black man attacking the white woman would play out) ....
if Hillary and the machine prevail, it may be time for progressive Americans to consider other options. maybe that is what is happening.
Obama really needs to begin running against Mccain, because there is no more he can do with Hillary.
I just feel sorry for the "high school educated people" who the Clinton Campaign has courted so heavily and have dupped them into giving more money and thinking that she has a chance.
Of all people...a Democrat pulling such a scam on these people.
Just sad.
.
Someone needs to tell her that is what little kids do.....try to change the rules so they can win the game.
Adults are expected to play by the rules...............time to grow up Hillary.
No.
It's called.. C o u n t i n g and r u l e s that were set up and signed by all the candidates.
She's bashing the system that she agreed too and signed.
Doesn't she read what she signs?
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Mumbles McCentury McCain doesn't have the intellect to be president. He lacks wisdom in every area and would need a dictionary to debate Harvard Scholar Barack Obama. Senator Barack Obama brings intelligence and love of America and the Constitution to the White House. Barack crosses all party lines (Democratic, Republican, Independent) to create one healthy America respected and loved by the world.
Tell ya what. Let's have a 50-state national primary, and let's see how you fare in that, Hildog. Put up or shut up.
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she aint fit to shine the good doctors shoes as a matter of fact
There's no need for all this tedious voting shit and following all these various rules...
All that really counts in this "process" is that Senator Clinton says that she's the winner...And presto, she's the winner.
Now someone go get the Senator a cake, I'll drop some balloons from the rafters and then we can all scratch her a check for the legal max.
Don't you get it?
http://freewayblogger.blogspot.com/2008/04/eart...
signs from someone besides me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Wright
I find it despicable the attacks being made on Jeremiah Wright.....I wonder how many even know he is a veteran who volunteered to serve our country.
If Hillary had one ounce of integrity she would be denouncing these attacks on Jeremiah Wright.
Wow. That sure came out of left field. But it's to be expected, I guess.
So, let's all blame Howard. Or Obama. Or "the process." Or the MSM. Or Super-duper Delagates. Or all those ordinary dumb American voters. ANYBODY BUT HILLARY!
This dog and pony show is OVER. Somebody just needs to tell Hillary and her Clintonistas that, sometimes, reality sucks.
This has received very little press mention but I hope McCain's comments come back to bite him in the ass in the FAll. He doesn't think women deserve equal pay "they need more education and training". Hmmm, I wonder if he says that to his millionaire wife?
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/23/mccain-dism...
"Do you really think that Clinton asked the Republicans to run that ad? Seriously?"
No, but the North Carolina Republican Party is attempting to aid Clinton, not due to any personal or ideological allegiance, but because keeping Obama's margin of victory down in hopes of extending the primary battle. In the same way that Clinton is now playing footsy with Richard Melon Scaife and Fox News, she has yet to speak out against this ad being run for her benefit. McCain, in fact, has issued a stronger condemnation.
"And, why on earth would we as democrats want to disenfranchise two states that we will need to win in November?"
Florida and Michigan will be reinstated in some form eventually, but it's irrelevant because, even with those states, Clinton will not have the delegates/votes to overtake Obama. This is a red herring on your part.
"This is Howard Dean's mess. He needs to be replaced."
There is no mess. We have a clear pledged delegate leader. We have a clear popular vote leader. Obama wins both by any reasonable metric. Florida and Michigan cannot put Clinton over the top and they will be seated at the convention. The only mess is Clinton's campaign.
"And, if Hillary is the nominee, would you really not vote for her? Would you really throw your vote away, or God forbid, vote for McCain? Really?"
When did I ever even suggest this? You have exceeded your red herring limit, pal. But yes, I would vote for Clinton, though I won't have to since she has no realistic path to the nomination. Her best hope is to damage Obama enough so the superdelegates negotiate a compromise unity nominee with the pledged delegate/popular vote winner (i.e. Obama). So if I don't get to vote for Obama, I'll probably vote for Gore or Edwards or Biden. But yes, if I were to find myself in some wacky alternate universe where all mathematics is inverted, then of course I would vote for Clinton over McCain.
Fuck him. (Well, maybe he'll find some good old girl to do it...)
They probably thought that Florida might break for Richardson and Obama and Michigan might break for Obama and Edwards so then Hillary signs the pledge but once Richardson and Edwards both drop out then she can talk about Florida and Michigan all day.
And If Hillary really did not want to disenfranchise voters why didn't she bring this up when Richardson, Edwards and other candidates like Biden were still in the race. This was a very calculated move by the Clinton's
(Gee, ya think?)
He also won't make up his mind until all of the primaries are over.
I think the dems could lose the House, as well as thew White House, if the dem machinery allows Clinton to steal the nomination. Listening to all the repubs like Pat Buchanan cheer on Clinton it is as if the dems and repubs have merged into a single party.
Once she hurts Obama and the Democratic Party as much as she can, she will turn away and walk with the Republicans....
Michigan and Florida have been stripped of their delegates. No one is challenging that.
Obama will end up with more elected delegates than Clinton, but neither will end up with enough pledged delegates to win the nomination. So this will be decided by the super-delegates. No one is challenging that.
So, both sides are making their cases to the super-delegates. Hilary is making the case that she is winning the popular vote, so the super-delegates should break for her. To make that argument, she's using questionable math. Obama is saying that super-delegates should respect the will of the people. After accepting Kerry 's and Kennedy's endorsement and support after losing the Massachusetts primary to Clinton.
The thing that really does stick in my craw is how stupid this nomination process is. How is it possible for Hilary to win the Texas primary by popular vote but for Barack to end up with more Texan delegates?
In 2000, Al Gore won the popular vote but George Bush won the electoral vote. And a lot of Democrats said that was wrong. But now we understand that the Democratic nomination process can accomplish exactly the same thing. To me, the villain is this stupid process for picking a candidate and there are no heroes in sight.
But enough with this ridiculous attitude that when Clinton plays politics she is evil and when Obama plays politics he is our savior.
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Not true, Obama can still get the right amount of delegates if the numbers fall in a similar fashion as they have thus far. Take a look at CNN's own delegate counter (link below) and see for yourself.
As far as the popular vote goes, it does NOT matter, that is NOT the way we determine victors in any campaign! We use delegates only. Now you may not like that (I am on the fence about it actually) BUT that is not up for discussion at this time SINCE the rules are set for this election.
That said, we are counting DELEGATES, NOT THE popular vote, so please can't we can't past this part?
sorry, here's the link to the delegate counter
aquarius2-
equal pay for women opposed by McMaverickiness...
this opens us up to too many lawsuits? what a crock.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/23/mccain...
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/23/mccain-dism....
McSame is positively shocking in his prehistoric views of women and the workplace! Now why isn't the media picking up on this little delight?
Calling Keith, calling Keith...
http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/editorblog/084
If you reach Keith, let me know. There are a few more things I'd like to see him discuss. :)
How is how Jenna or "not-Jenna" playing some kind of voting game a STORY in the first place? Give me a break!
======================================
Heck, if the press doesn't cover Jenna Bush, what else will they report?
Now, if Senator Clinton would agree to a scheme in which all of the caucuses are assigned a "popular vote value", whereby the performance in the caucus is translated as best as is possible in to an accurate number of votes represented by said caucus for the state/districts in question, then THOSE votes were added to the popular vote total for the purposes of accurately measuring support (in other words, a clusterf*ck of a mess to calculate, especially considering the overwhelming number of voters coming out to the Democratic primaries this cycle), then we can START to talk about the value of the popular vote.
However...Democrats have a mixed popular vote/caucus vote system in place this election cycle. So delegates matter, and the popular vote is NOT an accurate metric.
Quit trying to obfuscate the reality of the situation, Senator Clinton. You came close. But you've lost by all legitimate metrics. You've lost in delegates, you've lost in states, you've lost in the popular vote if caucuses are accurately translated in to the popular vote. You were THE candidate at the beginning of the season. You had EVERY advantage, in terms of star power, in terms of support by the media, and in terms of support by party insiders. This was YOUR race to lose. And you did. Sorry.
Bow out gracefully, lick your wounds, and get back in to the game of passing progressive legislation, supporting the wishes of your constituents, and otherwise working for We the People. Support the Democratic candidate. Use all of the resources you are wasting attacking your ally, Barack Obama, to instead aid in the long slog that is the General Election. What you are doing right now is harmful to the cause you supposedly stand for.
Clinton is not only using questionable math in her popular vote tally she's contradicting her own ethical standards. To get the number she's suggesting, she's "disenfranchising" four caucus states and refusing to acknowledge that at least 5% of the Michigan "Uncommitted" voters were Obama supporters who came to express their support for Obama.
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Hillary isn't in this for the nomination (now), her people know their only chance is by bribing the super delegates. I think both she and her hubbie feel personally about all of this and now want Obama bloodied beyond recognition.
I agree. They've made it personal. :( That saddens me. When such a race becomes personal, it shows the lack of priorities present. Personal power is more important than making sure someone more in line with your policies, within your own party no less, wins the nomination. Cheating the Will of the People is an acceptable way to win a path to the White House? Making sure that if YOU don't win, neither does YOUR TEAM? That is screwed in the head. It gives the appearance of a pure grab for power, with no altruism, no service to We the People, no respect for the outstanding performance your opponent has presented, no respect for those who've expressed their will by not voting for you, and absolutely no shame. I know she is a politician, but have a modicum of respect, and a semblance of grace, for crying out loud.
If you have any doubts, listen to how everyone is concentrating on Indiana now, and almost ignoring North Carolina. The reality is that any state where Obama is favored is given less importance than ones where Clinton is favored, and if Obama doesn't overtake Clinton in states where she is heavily favored, he has a "problem". No mention of the fact that since Super Tuesday, of the 19 contests, she's won 3.5 and he has won 15.5, yet somehow Obama has a "problem" now.
As a side note, I notice no one talked about the fact that even though he is the only candidate running on the GOP side, McCain only got 73% of the vote in PA. THAT, sounds like a problem to me, when 27% of your electorate won't vote for you when you are the only candidate left.
If you count (as I count) the "Undecided" ballots of Michigan as being for Obama, then Clinton is again behind the count.
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I think that Hillary's (and Bill's) lust for power has gone beyond the recognizable as to who we thought were. Their greed has seemingly become the guiding force obscuring their original goal and supplanting a much more horrific one.
She has become her lust and anything or anyone in her way be damned, Party included.
And yes it is awfully sad and at the same time it makes me damn furious that these two people, whom I once respected, mislead me to this extent. I will never vote for either of them again, never ever.
By the way, nice to "meet cha"!
Shame on her and shame on the media for not calling her a liar.
If the Democratic Candidate is chosen by the Super Delegates, the National Democratic Party will be repeating Al Gore's legacy for the country once again.
Why she doesn't feel she can stand on truth and must time and time again resort to lieing is beyond me. You wouldn't let your children get away with this behavior. Why would you want someone with no moral fiber to be President of the United States?
She is running for president where trust and respectability are important.
Obama's name wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan and both states (Fla and Mich.) knew what the rule were when they broke the rule. Hillary lied about putting her name on the ballot in Michigan and if they count the votes and delegates they should be divided evenly. Hillary is turning out to be quite the "whiner," and a poor loser. Her tricks are Rovian. We had 8 years of that BS and ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
By the way, one question I have that no-one in the media is askeing or answering is this. Does the number 2025 (delegates needed to win the Dem nomination) include FL and MI? If so, what is the number needed to win if those delegations are not seated?
With the remaining superdelgates split 50/50, Clinton must win by 66.6% to 33.3% EVERYWHERE to beat Obama (not win the nomination, just to be ahead)
66.6=Number of the Great Deceiver
Therefore, Clinton is the Great Deceiver!! OH NOES!!
Do the math yourself: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/29/delegate...
It is my understanding that in the state of Florida, in order for a Candidate to be eligible in the General Election, Candidates must participate in the Primary Election. This is the reason why all of the Candidates had their names placed on the ballots in the Primary Election. This motion should challenge the DNC to reverse the ruling reinstate the popular vote and seat the Delegates based on the following reasons:
1. Unconstitutional:
14th. Amendment to the U.S. Constitution
Section1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
The DNC process of segregating the citizens of Florida is unconstitutional. The DNC has no constitutional, legal or moral right to impose sanctions or suppress the popular vote in any State of the Union. Unless there is a clear and present violation of the election, the DNC must cooperate and follow the very laws which govern and protect each and every citizen of the United States without prejudice. The DNC may standardize the rules of the party but can not contradict our nation’s most sacred doctrine. It is the principal and foundation of everything that Americans have cherished for 232 years.
10th. Amendment to the U.S. Constitution - Bill of Rights
Both States certified the results of the election and both the States and the people for the respected States are in agreement of the validity of the election. This coincides with the 10th Amendment “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”
2. Candidate Requirements
In order for a Candidate to meet the requirements to participate in the General Election for the State of Florida, the Candidates were duty-bound to compete regardless of the agreement signed. As a result of not having the names on the ballot, this would by default, automatically forfeit the party’s participation and exclude any party member to partake in the General Election. This requirement is the premise to validate the voter’s conclusion and contradicts the section “shall not compete or participate in any state”. The participation of the Candidates solidified the Democratic Parties participation in the General Election. The DNC can not make claim to an agreement as “valid” when it was mandatory to participate in order to maintain eligibility for the General Election but penalize the very same state (s) during the Primary Election.
3. DNC Responsibility
The DNC has breached the Tenth and Fourteenth Amendment and must assume responsibility for this debacle.
The DNC has unfortunately and undeniably jeopardized the integrity of the Constitution of the United States election process, has infringed upon our liberties and freedoms and has reduced this election to 48 states. It was the egotism of the DNC who produced the agreement and required the candidates to adhere to without investigating the obvious consequences. The DNC has no jurisdiction over the Constitution. The DNC can not certify the results of the Primary Election without including all 50 States. Regardless of what the Candidates signed the results for the election would be worthless.
The chief-decision makers in government are the citizens of the United States of America, not the DNC, RNC or INC. No party can pick and choose or exclude which votes count. This unethical and illegal process is a dangerous precedence which can not continue. We must not allow our absolute rights to be infringed upon or opposed by any person, committee or party as long as the liberties and freedoms bestowed upon us continue. Quoting the most famous document in the world, “We the People” not “We the Party”
IT’S NOT ABOUT THE DNC, RNC OR INC, IT’S ABOUT THE USA!
THE CITIZENS VOTES WILL BE COUNTED AND THE DNC’S ONLY OPTION IS TO DECIDED WHAT TO DO WITH THE DELEGATES!
IF ANYBODY SAID YOUR VOTE DID NOT COUNT WHAT WOULD YOU SAY ABOUT THE CONSTITUTION AND YOUR RIGHTS!
THINK ABOUT IT!
On this issue she is no different than W on misrepresenting the information going into IRAQ. A president that misresents information on things that can be checked isn't going to be trusted when commenting about information that can't be independently verified,
On FL and MI this should have been resolved a long time before the votes in these states
Hillary learned from the best..
Barack Obama, even with MI and FL, is still ahead in the popular vote. That's the story that needs to be circulated!
First: Uncommitted vote was quite large, like 45%
Second: Kucinich (the only other dem with any traction on the ballot) may have gotten more votes than he normally may have (like my own) in order for voters just to make a committed statement that Hillary Clinton was unacceptable as a candidate.
Third: Even though the Sec. of State (republican) did try to make it clear that all write-in candidates would be discarded, the ballot I voted on still presented that possibility as if it might be valid. No disclaimer.
Fourth: While trundling through info on how the early primary for MI had come to pass in the legislature, I came across a rather exhaustive summary (can't remember who wrote it) on how the early primary idea got traction in both FL and MI state legislatures: in both states the measure was introduced and passed by majority Republicans in both houses. In the case of MI, our Gov. Granholm simply signed into law a measure she knew would have been overidden if she vetoed it. She was at the time a Hillary supporter but this was going to happen with or without her.
Fifth: Well, fifth is just visceral. Hillary was certainly counting MI out at the time, saying we didn't matter. Her sense of inevitability and her previous disregard of this state should be what "counts" now. She campained here anyway. There is certainly no knowing how the state would have gone if it had remained a relatively early contender in the usual primary schedule, but for her to claim victorious here after the fact is ludicrous. She can't possibly try to prove a negative.
It is with a great sense of satisfaction that I see states that felt they have never mattered before being able to actually have a say in this race. Good for them. What I see as more consequential is that those who tried to game a system on purely political grounds -- the republicans who started it and Hillary trying to count it -- have pie in their face.
I don't know why Dems like Gore, Carter, Pelosi have been waiting so long? They have to interfere and brush away the ´whole Clinton era. Clintons are disused.
Obama and his ideas are the only hope we have in this epoch of time. He will surely change a lot of things. You know why? Because he has already changed some important things. Look at young people, look at the new hope that people have, look at the amazing interests that people show for the future of their country .All these will be ended if Hillary has the wheels. God, don't let it happen please.
I think the future of our world will be decided in this election. It is very important for people all around the world that Barack Obama should be the next president of the USA.All people who want to have a world in peace, in equality, in freedom, in liberty are on Barack's side .The rest are more or less on the side of Hillary or McCain. That is the truth that Hillary belongs to the old establishment. She have been trying to win no matter on whose cost and how .Yes, she is experienced but in what? She is experienced in hushing up, in sending innocent soldiers to a war, which has helped to strengthen the terrorists and spread terrorism in many countries. Hillary will lie much more in order to put Barack and his movement into affliction and distress. She is a master of doing so. She learnt it in the old establishment.