Well KMA. And he's our leader? I may be jumping the gun here but I just lost a lot of respect for Obama. Maybe I'm missing something here.
Thanks Obama, for standing up and defending our Constitution. Nader is starting to look better by the minute.
Edit: I just read Obama's take on the new FISA compromise. He's says everything is ok, Bush will be reigned in and everything will be better. I guess all the lies I heard and read about last week were just that, lies. Thanks Obama, for pointing out that untold commentators had their head up their ass. God, don't you just love a new leader who puts you in your place.
Subvert the Constitution for political gain? Pelosi, Reid, Hoyer maybe. But Obama? The bottom line is that this bill subverts the 4th Amendment - and Obama knows that. Thanks Obama, for trashing the 4th Amendment during your first week of being the leader of the Democratic Party.
cagefreebrown
· 1 year ago
godammit. I was counting on him being in office at least a month before he let me down.
he talks the talk. when the DNC website said they wouldn't take pac money, I thought he was walking the walk. today, I feel just like I ALWAYS feel during these elections - taken for GRANTED.
Deacon_Blues
· 1 year ago
I think (I hope) this is a case of choosing your battles. It sucks, but laws are meant to be changed -- and re-changed.
naschkatzehussein
· 1 year ago
You mean we are just supposed to trust him and have faith in him? Where have we heard that before? I don't have "faith" in anything, not religion, and least of all politicians.
tlsintx
· 1 year ago
he still opposes immunity.
if the phone giants get immunity, i'm going to figure Obama doesn't need my piddling little 25 bucks here and there.
Polly_Tics
· 1 year ago
We will see what he does on immunity, but he really did disappoint me greatly today. Let's hope that he does, at the very least, stop the immunity, but I won't hold my breath.
Bush_Bites
· 1 year ago
Immunity was the only thing the pissed me off, actually.
I don't have problems with spying as long as it has to go through the FISA courts.
tbhull
· 1 year ago
Obama is a fucking fraud and a coward. I will not vote for him.
I wish nothing short of a plague on DC.
The US government is out of control and clearly lost. It needs to fall apart to be rebuilt.
Polly_Tics
· 1 year ago
Obama's stance on FISA and the immunity issue makes my stomach feel sick.
SIGH, and here I thought we had a unique candidate, whereas it appears he might be just another pol in new clothes.
I need a drink...
tbhull
· 1 year ago
What he is basically saying violating and eviscerating the 4th Amendment (with the able and now soon to be immune efforts of the telcos) is a miscarriage of justice if Bush did it, but when I am in power I will, with the able and immune efforts of relcos, continue to violate and eviscerate the 4th Amendment with due respect for the people. Bullshit!
Insofar Obama speaks of change, he is another fucking fraud in a long line of the same.
DC and its current power structure need to fall hard by any means necessary.
Why do americans work and pay taxes only to pay for a government that can and does spy on them inviolation of the Constituion with impunity? All American W-2 workers should quit working for several weeks/months and cut off DC's lefe blood, taxes. Let DC collapse and then rebuild anew with all new faces.
naschkatzehussein
· 1 year ago
Exactly!
Õ¿Õ
· 1 year ago
What am I missing here? How can you vote for the bill without the immunity part but you're essentially saying it's legal by voting for it? Don't play us for fools.
57andFemale
· 1 year ago
They are separating the immunity out of the bill and voting on it separately. The Senate can write the bill any way they want, with or without provisions, amendments, etc.
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 1 year ago
"Supports" is a gross overstatement. He is planning to fight this battle another day, on more solid ground, and from a stronger position. The key thing is he still opposed to retroactive immunity for the evil telecom corporations like ComCast.
naschkatzehussein
· 1 year ago
He will be voting for an even worse part of the bill--expanding the president's authority to wiretap and gutting the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution. I though the Constitution was his area of expertise in the law.
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 1 year ago
I seem to be more willing than most here already to cut the guy some slack; he and the party aren't in any position right now to stop the momentum, and this pitiful "compromise" is the best that can be had--he knows when to engage on the battlefield and when to do a tactical retreat.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
Karen - nothing personal, I understand what you're saying. Political savvy. Withdraw to fight again later, etc. But here's the point I am making. Nothing excuses the trashing of the Constitution, anytime, anywhere, anyplace. Nothing. It takes courage to stand up for what is RIGHT, and what is CONSTITUTIONAL - and unless you can make a case that the FISA Bill is constitutional one can very easily make an argument that Obama, like the majority of Dems in Congress, is a coward.
You might cut him some slack, but I'm too much of a patriot to cut anyone slack who undermines the Constitution. Caving in to Bush is not my idea of "new" leader - how many more times will he "cave" for corporate Amerika?
Õ¿Õ
· 1 year ago
Uh, it's not the "evil telecoms." They were just spying for the administration. They don't care about intimidating the democratic party.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
I think you're right Karen - what you say makes sense - trash the 4th Amendment for 9 more months - then come back strong - to hell with courage, standing up for what is right, telling the American people the truth about the matter. Against immunity? Ok. We'll see - last I heard immunity was in the cards. Hiding behind the truth for political gain just doesn't cut it with me. We need a LEADER, not someone who caves to the facist GOP just to win votes. Whatever - we'll know more soon enough.
Õ¿Õ
· 1 year ago
I think the 'Murkan people deserve McShrub, anyway. Said it all along.
Polly_Tics
· 1 year ago
BITE your bloody tongue!
.
devis1
· 1 year ago
I have never had any delusions that Obama is the be all and end all. This is very disappointing though. His picks for his foreign policy team are also troubling.
tlsintx
· 1 year ago
i want Russ Feingold for president. i don't care.
NMRon
· 1 year ago
It'll be a cold day in hell before he sees a contribution from me. This is treason beyond the pale.
ObamaUSAyes
· 1 year ago
Partisan extremist Glenn Greenwald is coming down hard on Obama for this compromise. I think that Barack did exactly the right thing and that it's important we work with Republicans and even support their FISA legislation. Extreme leftists like gay journalist Glenn Greenwald have no business criticizing Obama when Billary was much much worse.
What an idiotic thing to say! Greenwald is a thoughtful commentator who usually always has it right. Suggesting that he is far left is simply absurd,
tlsintx
· 1 year ago
highly trollish...
daruskii
· 1 year ago
I suggest we all try together to get the money turned off for a week. His campaign has got to be watching daily totals.
Polly_Tics
· 1 year ago
Well, I was about to give him some money today, and NOW, I don't think so.
So I'm in...no money for such a stand on FISA!
.
michaelt
· 1 year ago
well that sucks the big linguini. we can only hope they can remove the immunity, but who's gonna hold thier breath for that? oh well, at least he said something.
PhyllisCAM
· 1 year ago
As a life-long moderate Republican, I give Obama a lot of respect for embracing this FISA bill. While some Dems cried and whined about civil rights and so-called 'warrentless' wiretapping, reasonable Dems like Obama realize that we are in a battle for our very survival against Islamofascist factions. In defending the security of our cities, Obama will surely get more crossover support from Republicans like me. Many of us support both the policies of Reagan *AND* Obama - defense of the homeland first.
Õ¿Õ
· 1 year ago
Let me explain this to you briefly. Nobody on the left gives a fuck if he's wiretapping possible terrorists with a court order. He wasn't doing that. He was spying on democratic politicians and ordinary Americans. Do you comprehend now?
devis1
· 1 year ago
We are in a battle for our constitution. But thank you for your support. "Homeland" sounds so NAZI tho--wouldn't you agree?
Õ¿Õ
· 1 year ago
Nazi homelanders consider themselves "moderate republicans" these days. Atilla the Hun was just defending his homeland, too.
Õ¿Õ
· 1 year ago
These are the wingnuts that Obama wants to reach? Nah, you can count me out of that.
By the way freaker, there's no such thing as an "islmofascist." Have a nice day.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
So-called 'warrentless' wiretapping - are you kidding? You my friend live in a dillusion of "islamofascists" (tell us how scared you are). The fascists, my friend, are in Washington -and that's what makes dittoheads like yourself different from those of us on the left. Embrace your lies - you're gonna need 'em. By the way, you're pretty much wasting your time here - 99.9% of anything a bottom feeding right winger says is discounted by the left; if you haven't noticed.
devis1
· 1 year ago
Looks like John turned off the troll filter.
Bush_Bites
· 1 year ago
You can support the bill. I had mixed feelings myself.
But don't use "Islamofascists."
It's a loaded, racist, emotionally charged and imprecise Fox News term that does nothing to define the terrorism problem and tars a religion of 2 billion people.
(Or do you call the KKK Christofascists?).
mirth
· 1 year ago
As I understand it, the bill reverts back to necessary court orders before a wiretap is possible. In this I agree with Obama's support of it. BUT if the immunity is not removed and he still votes for it, then not another dime from me to his campaign and my Nov vote for him becomes shaky.
I'm sorely pissed that yesterday, again and again, his campaign workers told callers that he would vote against the bill. A worker stated to me, firmly, that his vote would be No.
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
Obama just lost some of his netroots support, but guess what? with shillary out of the way, he doesn't need it. Oh how the shine has come off the new thing. Back to reality. Check out his neo-lib punk economic advisors: http://www.alternet.org/election08/88093/?ses=c... Unbelievable...
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
I heard about that the other day - also w.r.t. his foreign policy people - he's wrong on Africa, wrong on the middle east, etc (having hope that he would see the light). He just lost my support with this FISA business. When the leader of the Democratic party puts his stamp of approval on domestic spying, past and future, its over.
tommytoonz
· 1 year ago
You were the fool if you ever believed Obama to be a progressive. He has a solid centrist voting record, he TALKS like a centrist and he doesn't deny it when asked. I'm all for a fully Progressive Democratic party, but Progressives need to stop projecting their own beliefs onto Obama because he's simply not a Progressive.
Õ¿Õ
· 1 year ago
Yeah, but he supports "civil unions" and has mentioned it a few times...
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
I didn't believe, but I was hoping. BO was my 3rd or 4th choice behind Kucinich, edwards and dodd. what do you base you opinion on his voting record?
FunMe
· 1 year ago
If Obama loses the presidency, he can count today's date as the turning point.
JUNE 20, 2008 - Friday
The day I lost my enthusiasm for Obama.
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 1 year ago
OK, all you outraged 4th Amendment Absolutists: I hear your objection to Obama's stance; but consider what President McCain or Lying-in-Wait Mitt ("Double Guantanamo") Romney would do to gut the Constitution even more. Also just in: Obama has his bounce: 51-36 (Daily Kos).
tbhull
· 1 year ago
The world of ideas and thought are not two dimiensional zero sum gain systems. Saying Obama's position is FISA is cowardly, ill-conceived and flat out wrong does not mean that McCain does not remain a senile poor excuse for a president.
Bush_Bites
· 1 year ago
"The lesser of two evils is still evil."---Nader Supporter mantra of 2000.
Didn't that work out well?
Catsandbeer.com
· 1 year ago
pussy
truthseeker
· 1 year ago
I hate like hell that you are right. My heart sunk when I read this. I'm going to be seeking my money back from the campaign. This seems rather Clintonesque.
FunMe
· 1 year ago
Time to tell Obama that We The People are not behind him:
Obama campaign (866) 675-2008 [Dial 6, then 0, on the menu
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
I just got off the phone with an obama rep - she already knew what i was going to complain about and she did not disagree, she was not happy either. Phones are busy there, please call them (hit '6' after connecting) To reach the Campaign Headquarters by phone, please call: (866) 675-2008
mirth
· 1 year ago
I can't get through, but you can believe I will keep trying. Along with stating that if he votes for FISA with the immunity clause included, then he loses all of my support and probably my vote, but I also want an explanation of why yesterday his phone worker stated emphatically that his vote would be No.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
Thanks lucky. I talked for about 5 minutes. Mostly I told the guy to tell Obama to stand up, tell the American people the truth, and NEVER NEVER subvert the Constitution, for any reason. I asked the guy if he remembered the words a lady yelled out in the background during his acceptance speech - he said he didn't recall (after I told him - I told him to listen to it) - she said Obama! We believe in you! I told the guy this was the voice of America. I said forget about the right wing fruitcakes, they're a minority in this country. All Obama has to do is stand up and protect and defend the Constitution. If immunity is not removed and Obama is not behind a fillibuster - he can count me out. After that I won't give a rats ass anymore. I am tired of phonies, right or left.
MotorCityBadBoy
· 1 year ago
Just got off the phone with a nice lady at HQ. I asked her to clarify Obama's position and she basically said what he said (no surprise there, what is she supposed to say?) Talked and complained for about 2 minutes and then asked her if she had gotten any other calls about this and she said "all day, nonstop". I told her I hope this goes up the chain of command because we are not happy. If he comes back on this one and opposes it I think he'll really help his credibility with the base.... I think he must be tone deaf to the amount of corporate hatred that's out here.
aconfederacyofdunces
· 1 year ago
This sorry decision by Obama is not "centrist." Pure corporatist bullsh*t.
Yes, he's way better than McSame, but then so is your dog.
Bush_Bites
· 1 year ago
Arghhh.
Dodd for Majority Leader.
Fireblazes(cheetohsandcatfood)
· 1 year ago
Man, you all turn quick. Perhaps you should reason this out before you help elect Mccain. The perfection you all seek does not exist. But letting the Republicans chose the next 3 Supreme Court Justices is just plain suicidal. Nothing is permanent. I don't like it either but letting Mccain keep us involved in endless war is not a good way to SHOW OBAMA he is screwing up. Apply pressure politically but do not be so radically reactionary.
Put in the subject line something like: Please remove me from the Contributors List
And then tell Obama to tighten up and stand up like a leader and fillibuster in the Senate - if immunity is not removed.
This time next week we'll know if Obama is for real or he's just another spineless Dem. The 4th Amendment lies in the balance - not to mention previous crimes committed by this administration.
Fireblazes(cheetohsandcatfood)
· 1 year ago
This is a pretty good idea.
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
don't forget to 'unsubscribe' to his newsletter is you do. there is a spot where you can add a reason for unsubscribing.
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
I don't seek perfection. I only seek a true believer, supporter and fighter that is FOR the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
Unfortunately that person never seems to run for office.
aconfederacyofdunces
· 1 year ago
The situation may well have to get much worse before it can get better.
What is clearly stated in the Constitution as our right has been taken away.
...
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security." - Benjamin Franklin
Fireblazes(cheetohsandcatfood)
· 1 year ago
Those who would give up future generation's freedoms over civil crimes of the past deserve a chance to rethink their shortsighted position!
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
"Obama - Change We Can Believe In"
What a joke. We've all been had, yet again. There is no change, only more worthless talk. Yet another empty suit politico.
None Of The Above '08!
FunMe
· 1 year ago
Very well said.
NO ONE in 2008!
FNReedie
· 1 year ago
A vote for this FISA bill -- that basically guts the 4th Amendment -- will ensure that my campaign donations will go elsewhere. I'm thinking the EFF ...
Sorry, Obama. You lost me. You should that you are more concerned with protecting corporations than with protecting the Constitution.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
Someone tell Obama to listen to Constitutional Law Professor Turley on Olbermann (6-19). I know Obama has been out of Law School for a few years but if he wants to "get up to speed" on how the FISA bill subverts the 4th Amendment then he needs to listen to Turley for 5 minutes.
Hey Obama - you got 5 minutes? Or did you forget that the people of this country "believed in you?"
And one more thing Obama - ask yourself this: How do you think it looks to be kissing the ass of the most unpopular pResident in American history (19% approval) AND, AND, AND, AND subverting the Constitution at the same time? Tell us Mr. Obama, how you can do that and then turn around and lie to the people who put their absolute trust in you?
MotorCityBadBoy
· 1 year ago
I saw that and I agree with him... I like Turley. I thought he wore glasses though.
Andrew
· 1 year ago
If this is the same Barack Obama that just yesterday stated he would rely on raising funds from the internet, then as per his view on FISA, we should just stop giving period. Send a clear message that the rule of law under our Constitution does mean something and those that oppose that view can peddle their ice cream somewhere else. If Hoyer is running this fall for re-election, I sincerely hope that those in his district show him the door out.
OneManComotion
· 1 year ago
I think that does it for me. I give up and will not vote for Obama or any other person that is part of the one party system that we have in this country. And I thought he was truly real. Unless someone can give me a better argument for his vote...Bye Bye.
JayR
· 1 year ago
Boooooo. Hammer him. He responds to criticism.
NanoPlop
· 1 year ago
Obama just removed any and all enthusiasm I had for his campaign. I won't be canvassing, registering or contributing to anyone but my local congressperson... who did vote against this stupid bill. Rolling over for a lame-duck president and a party that is at historically low voter identification shows me that he is no different from the rest.
jr
· 1 year ago
I'm sick of this bullshit. Hannityites are going to attack him as "weak on defense" even if he supports this second gilded age enabling horseshit
falloch
· 1 year ago
I am hanging on to one thing and one thing only: the Supreme Court. For all the fact that I prefer Obama's oratorial skills to Hillary's, for all the fact that I yearned for a Presidential candidate outside the Bush/Clinton dynastic loop(s), there's always the reality check that whoever ends up being a viable Presidential candidate is going to fulfil about 00.09 percent of my dreams/expectations for the next American administration. The candidates I would have supported with all my heart and mind wouldn't make it 2 weeks in their campaigns, because they wouldn't be beholden to the vast ranks of corporatism, nepotism, scratch-bubba's-back-ism, etc. So I hold on to Supreme Court nominations, which is why I would've voted for either Hillary or Obama because I think (I pray) that either of them would make suitable SCOTUS appointments .The appointments are long-term, aren't in the limelight of November election fever, but are quietly v. important. These SCOTUS appointments will have their impact way past November elections, with far-reaching consequences - about interpretations of the Constitution, about abortion, women's rights, union rights, legal representation, torture - the list stretches out for decades. The issues for November are important on so many levels, but the long-term issues are complicated and thus not easy to get across in 30-second soundbites, and yet they are the crucial ones. When I read about Obama's obeisance before AIPAC, his folding on FISA, etc. I just keep telling myself 'he was never a radical, far from it, but fingers crossed he'll find a few good candidates for the Supreme Court and perhaps restore some modicum of decency to that scroll of paper called the US Constitution that Bush has been wiping his ass with for the past eight years.'
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
other than world-wide war, global warming and ecological disaster perped by repubs; this is arguably the single most important reason to vote dem, imo. also the one good thing clinton gave us.
Andrew
· 1 year ago
As Burke said, all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.
LeesiD
· 1 year ago
I think you folks need to read the comment in full that Obama stated~He has never nor is he now in favor of the telecomm immunity. He is favor of the FISA has we all should be, an act that has been in existence for quite a few years, 30 to be exact. It has never bern quite the issue until it has been so blatantly abused by the Bush Administration, under the guise of needing to be upgraded because of the new technology. Please lets not confuse the idea that just because this bill is necessary that he favors immunity or amnesty for these telecomms, he does not!! He has and will once again along with Sen. Dodd to get this portion of the Bill stripped next week when it is the Senates turn toi vote on it. Please to all of you who are upset with Obama, be aware about the closed door negotiations on this "compromise", and whose advisors who are lobbyists for AT&T and Viacom Charlie Black and William Bergman, John McCain neds to answer to now~!!! Throw your anger to where it should be thrown~!!
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
those people are a waste of time, there's nothing that can be done about them, it's over. but for obama - people had hope - well let him fillibuster until the immunity is removed - otherwise he's a liar.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
lucky - I agree. I've posted more then I should have on this thread but I was sooo pissed when I heard this. You are right. Obama has one chance to send a message to the American people that he is a Leader - that he stands up for the Constitution, that he cannot be "bought out" and that the welfare of the American citizen and the protection of their Rights is his top priority. IF he does not get behind a filibuster of the bill next week in the Senate he will have sent the message that many of us here, including myself, is all we need to know.
I want Obama to become a great President - up there with Lincoln and Kennedy, et al. But he cannot and will not if he capitulates, even one time, and only one time, and subverts the constitution and protect criminals at the same time. He has one chance left. He will define himself next week in the Senate.
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
Just like herding cats. Amazing to me how quickly people will do the "I'm through with Obama dance". You folks really lack some deep perspective don't you. Yes, I completely disagree with what Obama did today, but realistically, what's that alternative? At this point all the people who say they are "tuning out", where you going to go? Do you think the GOP isn't going to show up in November and elect McCain anyway, because the Dems are upset because Obama isn't the great progressive wunderkind we thought he was?
Get real people. This is not an all or nothing proposition, or more precisely, our party needs to learn that it isn't an all or nothing proposition. The reality is, this is a fight of the Dems vs the GOP, McCain vs Obama, not "perfect progressivisism" versus nothing. Not voting for and even campaigning for Obama is the same thing as voting for McCain.
Sorry peoples perfect little worlds are shattered, but welcome to reality where compromise and sometimes even caving in are pretty normal parts of life.
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
tlh -
I always appreciate your comments but this is the Fourth Amendment that is about to be gutted for all time because of its precedence. This isn't erosion, it's cut and paste gone. Obama could end this in a heartbeat and do the absolute right thing. And, not to be an ass, I think the "crowd would go wild" with support. This is horrible.
Peace.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
Ben - that's exactly what Professor Turley said - it is an abject gutting of the 4th Amendment. For some reason those who blindly support Obama is this catastrophic move thinks its ok to gut the 4th Amendment for "political expediency". I say they are cowards; including Obama - unless Obama gets behind a filibuster next week after it is determined (and it will be) that immunity will not be removed in the Senate I will not vote for him. I would rather see this country trashed by the fascist right then to send a weak and spineless Democrat to the WH.
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
compromising for what reason? why? we're 'in control' now aren't we?
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
Subverting the Constitution, to yield to a minority, to please a pResident with 19% approval ratings, is not, IMHO, compromise. Its not about compromise, its about standing up and defending the 4th Amendment, to hold those accountable who have broken the Law. We are a nation of Laws, not political parties.
Many on the left are T'd off because when it came time to stand up - and BE A LEADER - Obama took the easy way out and slid out the back door.
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
LeesiD -
I would say that all Obama would have to do is say something like this: "I support the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, therefore I cannot support this legislation as written and will vote no on its passage."
Just my very humble opinion.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
LeesiD - as they say, genius is simple. Exactly.
MotorCityBadBoy
· 1 year ago
I would sooooo vote for Fiengold for president. I'm feeling real sick about Obama supporting this bill. I wrote the campaign and let them know how I felt on his page (for all the good it'll do)... I think he's floating a trial balloon to see what his supporters say. I predict MAJOR blowback on this one.
mirth
· 1 year ago
You mean the Feingold who called for impeachment and then later said it "wasn't worth it?"
There are no heros.
mirth
· 1 year ago
Forget my previous comments that I could support Obama's FISA Yes vote if immunity is removed.
If Obama votes for this bill, even with immunity removed, then I will withdraw my support of his campaign and most probably will not vote for him.
AdmNaismith
· 1 year ago
Even without the Immunity stuff, the FISA revamp is crap. The lack of Change(tm) is giving me little Hope(tm). Why, I'm beginning to think is lack of votes on so many issues is so he didn't look like a complete liar when the election campaign came around. /sarcasm
ffbuzz
· 1 year ago
Gallup has Obama leading by only two points today.
The country also is calling for US drilling. The Right is about to win again with the millions of idiots living in this country.
mirth
· 1 year ago
We're all riding on a Hope train with Obama. If we think of his FISA vote as a first test of what his presidency will be in actuality, then his Yes vote, with immunity or without, means he fails.
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
mirth - One of the things that concerns me most is another thing that Turley has pointed out. Even when the current FISA expires in August, it will continue to remain in full force and effect for another full year. There is absolutely no need or reason for this to be voted on now. There is no emergency. Turley seemed to think that its passage would only provide legal cover for not only Bush/Cheney but also for the many top level Dems that knowingly supported their actions and that that was the ONLY real reason for them to be so desperate to get it passed before the election. I still cannot believe that Obama would be in support of this in any manner.
mirth
· 1 year ago
Not only the good points you make, but there is also that if court orders are requested for wiretaps all that is needed is a claim that it's an emergency and they can proceed for up to 7 days without court approval, and not even ONE of these requests have been rejected.
I'm completely disillusioned. Call me naive, but I expected more from a professor of constitutional law.
I never expected to agree 100 percent with any candidate. That is how things are. But, I am disappointed and really really disagree with Obama on this issue. Of Course, he is still my candidate and I do expect really good things from an Obama presidency but, I still really do not agree with this issue. But, anyone who expects to agree with the votes or choices 100 percent with any candidate is foolish. This one is a mistake but, he has his reasons and I have mine for disagreeing. However, I also expect most of this nonsense like FISA, ect., to be part of the past once Obama does get into office.
vwcat
· 1 year ago
Reading the comments I see alot of dramatic declarations. Sure we are disappointed but, I assume there are reasons for Obama supporting it. It most likely has to do with getting elected. You cannot change anything if you don't get elected. And I also expect to see Obama move to center for the same reason. Especially with that National Journal rating dogging him and now being in the general he has to prove he is not a fringe lefty crazy man. I would advise you guys to expect him to be a bit more centrist in the coming months and remember that it is to get enough indies and crossovers to beat McShame and win more states and electoral numbers. It is what has to be done for democrats to break the cycle of republican rule. But, I do firmly think that obama will abolish and revamp many of the odious bills like this FISA one once he is safely sworn in. We have to understand the comprises and 'games' that even a great candidate like Obama has to play in order to be elected. and that is what is the most important. Don't confuse the coming political games and swordsmanship and moving center to win with the man's real ideas and politics. He will move back and become more progressive after Jan 2009. So let's not overreact and get this guy elected and remember the policies on his site that he has spelled out. this is pure politics for next few months.
devis1
· 1 year ago
I agree but his picks for his foreign policy team still worry me. My senator Webb disappointed me with his vote on FISA but I won't crucify him for it. Been making calls this week for the consolidated Dem. campaign in VA and the wingnuts I have spoken to absolutely convinced me that letting Repubs win because of any differences with Obama or Webb is very dangerous and short sighted..
vwcat
· 1 year ago
I am only trying to understand why the dems did this. It doesn't make sense for them to commit suicide since so many are facing election in the fall as well. It makes no sense for Obama, a constitutional professor, to do this. There has to be a reason why. this bill is personal with me. I am half french. When my family here and family there talk we will be spied on. So, I do not like this and don't agree with it. But, Obama is my senator and he is simply not someone who would give Bush more power. There has to be a reason behind it. I expect Durbin to vote against it. I know this and Obama usually votes similar to Durbin. There is something else as why obama would vote for this thing. So, I am reserving my anger for now. Let see what happens. diane lake -------------- Original message ----------------------
vwcat
· 1 year ago
Those people he was with last week were not his true team but, more of a special assemblage for something. I disagree with most of those people at that gathering. Too hawkish. I don't think they will be part of the administration. But, he does surround himself with people of all leanings from left to center. I don't think Obama is going to go hawk. He has too much support from being against this war and his emphasis on diplomacy. I still think this is alot of show to make him seem more to the center for the general. Most candidates do that in the presidential general election. Remember Bushie being a compassionate conservative. Right. there is alot of show and positioning and moving around during the general. They usually go back to there true beliefs once it's over. So, I am guessing this to be the case. i am hoping I should say. I don't want a Clintonian style president and Obama has a very progressive record here in Illinois. diane lake -------------- Original message ----------------------
mirth
· 1 year ago
One question:
What evidence or even suggestions of evidence do you have that Obama will "move back and become more progressive after Jan 2009"?
vwcat
· 1 year ago
I am only looking for a reason. It makes no sense for the dems to approve this and give Bush more when they are facing re election themselves. I did read that the leadership and obama were going to do a series of bills that would be to position him for the fall. I live in Illinois. Obama has a solid progressive record and he is very much of the constitution. He would not be a centrist or a Clintonian style democrat. there is nothing to suggest it. But, he is also taking hits for that National Journal ranking and it has hurt him. I will say this bill is personal to me. I am half french. My family talks to my family here. This bill means we will be spied on if we have not already. So understand, I personally hate this. But, I do think based on his record, his strong constitutional background and his dislike of Bush, that there has to be more to this then meets the eye. I am simply trying to understand and guess as to what is going on based on all this. It makes no sense. But, I am reserving my anger and emotion until more information comes along. Too many times have we on the left over reacted to something this past year only find out a day or two later that the reasoning made us look silly. I don't want to eat crow tonight so, let's see what happens in the senate. diane lake -------------- Original message ----------------------
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
This will set precedence for the USSC, it is not simply an odious bill that can be so easily changed. Especially since it would be challenged in a predominate neo-con USSC. It will be the "law of the land." I really hate to come across as being so shrill about this but it is, by vote, an absolute subversion of the Fourth Amendment to protect the guilty.
devis1
· 1 year ago
That's why it should never have been brought to the floor either. Maybe Reid won't bring it up in the Senate. HUH
naschkatzehussein
· 1 year ago
Oh Reid is going to bring it up alright. He says he's going to try and separate the immunity part from the extended wiretapping part * but doesn't know if he can*.
vwcat
· 1 year ago
I hate and am disappointed by the whole Fisa thing. I am half french. this thing means if I or any of my family talks to my family in France we get taped. It's personal with me. I hate it. But, I cannot see why the dems would go along without a reason of some kind. They do have to be elected in the fall as well. It's suicide. So, there has to be something going on. I am only trying to understand what. why. I know the leadership is trying to position Obama for the fall. I am guessing, only guessing, this may be one of them because they need to get indies and moderates to win. I do think many of these odious bills will be remedied once Obama is in office. But, he has to get there first. and so, I am preparing for some disappointing things because he has to tack to the center right now. But, I do hate this fisa thing. I am just trying to find out why they did this. diane lake
-------------- Original message ----------------------
SociologistTina
· 1 year ago
You're probably right!
I hope you ARE right.
Very cogent analysis. Thank you.
vwcat
· 1 year ago
My posting what I did was in trying to understand why. I can't believe the democrats and Obama would chance pissing off so many of the base with this. It made no sense. But, I read about a week ago that the dem. leadership was going to put up bills and position Obama for November. I am simply guessing on this being one of them. Plus the Blue Dogs do need something to take home for re-election. The freshmen. I do think Obama is kill this nonsense if elected. But, he first needs to get in. This may just be a ploy to do that so these things can be killed off. It's only a guess. diane lake
-------------- Original message ----------------------
DougStamate
· 1 year ago
So, in a choice between politics and the Constitution, politics triumph? This is just an "act" on the part of Sen. Obama so he can get elected and lead us all into the promised land? I thought the Senator was a Democrat, not a Republican! Sorry about the mistake. If he isn't going to support the Constitution now, why should he when he is President? Just because he's such a good guy he wouldn't WANT to do something unConstitutional? Baloney! Sen. Obama swore to defend the Constitution when he was admitted to the Senate. Certainly doesn't look like with this. And is he going to treat the oath he takes on January 20, 2009 the same way?
vwcat
· 1 year ago
I was not expressing my personal opinion on this. I was talking about and trying to find out why the dems did this. I said I did not agree and it upset me. what I am trying to do is find out answers and clues. The article was simply to say, listen, here may be some reasons behind it. It goes without saying how much people hate this, including me. I am looking for answers as to why and what maybe going on. I do think some of this is positioning for November. There was an article I read about a week ago saying that the leaders were going to put certain things up to position the nominee for November. I am guessing this is one. But, in no way was I expressing my support for it. I am just trying understand what maybe the reason for this. diane lake
-------------- Original message ----------------------
QUALAR
· 1 year ago
Obama knew at the time of his statement that there's absolutely no way an amendment to strike the immunity clause will pass a cloture vote requiring 60 votes. The only way to stop this bill would be a true filibuster involving a 67 vote cloture and it still may pass. The FISA law is unconstitutional because it changes the Constitution without following the prescribed methods for amendment. Any change requires ratification by 3/4 of the states. Both the Bush Cabal and the Congress are complicit in subverting our basic principles which defines us as a nation. And that includes Obama. Don't hold your breath because there's more surprises to follow. Bush must be blackmailing him with Rezko criminality.
mirth
· 1 year ago
As Ben Dover writes below:
"Even when the current FISA expires in August, it will continue to remain in full force and effect for another full year. There is absolutely no need or reason for this to be voted on now. There is no emergency."
and
"Turley seemed to think that its passage would only provide legal cover for not only Bush/Cheney but also for the many top level Dems that knowingly supported their actions and that that was the ONLY real reason for them to be so desperate to get it passed before the election."
thus
As Olbermann points out and with which Turley agrees,
FISA = CYA
marnielynn2001
· 1 year ago
First the go-back on accepting public money for the campaign. Now he supports the FISA compromise. Wonder what else he's gonna change his mind on this week.
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
The quietness of this issue shows how easy it really is to subvert the Bill of Rights and cancel the Fourth Amendment practically unchallenged.
I wonder if that silence will be as deafening when the Congress of Collusion, decides that We the People no longer need the First or Second Amendment?
Across the 'net, the natives are restless and the anger at this capitulation is growing. Just take a look around.
JacksonThersites
· 1 year ago
I don't think this has been all that quiet. I watched cspan during the vote in the house and every call was against the bill, Dem, Republican and Independents. There is a deep fury out there.
incontext
· 1 year ago
Hillary Clinton wouldn't have changed a word in Obama's public statement on FISA if she'd written it herself. I am no longer a Democrat because of her vote that stood no particular ground at all regarding 'trusting' Bush on the Iraq war.
This morning, I was listening to the call-in show on C-Span after the House vote for the FISA rewrite. It seemed most all callers from Republicans, Democrats and Independents were equally outraged by the bill's passage in the House. No one but Washington insiders approved of this bill. No one but your average corrupt politician benefits from passage of this appalling bill either.
I still prefer Obama to Hillary, unless this is the kind of performance we can expect once he's elected. For now, I'm still voting for him, but no more contributions from me to him or anything connected with Rahm Emmanuel, Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer or any of the other sell-outs on FISA in the Democratic party or its organizations. These people serve corporate rule, not the American people, period.
nova
· 1 year ago
I keep waiting for specifics from Sen. Obama. Sure, we all want change, but there have been no specific stands on issues until the last 24 hours: going back on a promise to accept public financing and now saying this "compromise" FISA bill is fine because of all those terrorists out there.
It's beginning to sound like the same old stuff, just a slicker, smoother package.
I remember when JFK said we would be on the moon by the end of the 1960's. America should be demanding ANSWERS and PLANS---SPECIFIC ideas about how to change the direction of the country.
So far, there have been little details. And Sen. Obama's stand concerning his pledge of public financing of his campaign and his support of telecom immunity and government snooping of our phone communications sounds like the same broken promises and Big Brother, Big Corporate Malarkey.
I can break promises when it is advantageous to me and we must FEAR the evil-doers.
Barack Obama became a red coat Torie today. Indeed, Obama & McCain are one where domestic spying is concerned.
ezpz
· 1 year ago
On the rerun of Countdown, i just watched the part where Keith and John Dean were talking about the FISA bill again. John Dean offered up some hope, saying that while the bill contains *legal* immunity (as in lawsuits) for the telecoms, it does NOT preclude the possibility of bringing CRIMINAL charges later on, something that Obama has been saying all along that he would consider doing.
SociologistTina
· 1 year ago
I think that this is like the lapel pin issue (notice that he is wearing it consistently now.) He supported it knowing full well that it can only truly be played out in the courts. Most of those who oppose the bill agree on that.
nova
· 1 year ago
Obama is the anti-Christ. And no, I am not some right-wing nut-job, fundamentalist over-the-topper. I am a card-carrying Liberal who firmly believes the in separation of Church and State..
Think about it. He is charismatic, everyone LOVES him, but no one can tell us why they love him except he seems to be the opposite of Bush. Yet, when the stuff hits the fan, he still wants to demolish the Constitution and bend rules to his advantage.
Have the last 7+ years set us up for this?
Always question.
SociologistTina
· 1 year ago
Yes.
trinu
· 1 year ago
I certainly disagree with him on this issue but I can also see how he could support it for the betterment of civil liberties because this bill also removes portions of the FISA law responsible for allowing warrantless wiretaps. That and Obama supports efforts to remove the immunity provision.
MorgaineSwann
· 1 year ago
Congress can't make a law that conflicts with the Constitution, or waives the rights described in it, so this bill isn't worth the paper it's written on even if it does pass. It might take a few years to get through the courts, but immunity is a non-issue as long as someone has the stones to prosecute the criminals.
All Comments
Thanks Obama, for standing up and defending our Constitution. Nader is starting to look better by the minute.
Edit: I just read Obama's take on the new FISA compromise. He's says everything is ok, Bush will be reigned in and everything will be better. I guess all the lies I heard and read about last week were just that, lies. Thanks Obama, for pointing out that untold commentators had their head up their ass. God, don't you just love a new leader who puts you in your place.
Subvert the Constitution for political gain? Pelosi, Reid, Hoyer maybe. But Obama? The bottom line is that this bill subverts the 4th Amendment - and Obama knows that. Thanks Obama, for trashing the 4th Amendment during your first week of being the leader of the Democratic Party.
he talks the talk. when the DNC website said they wouldn't take pac money, I thought he was walking the walk. today, I feel just like I ALWAYS feel during these elections - taken for GRANTED.
if the phone giants get immunity, i'm going to figure Obama doesn't need my piddling little 25 bucks here and there.
I don't have problems with spying as long as it has to go through the FISA courts.
I wish nothing short of a plague on DC.
The US government is out of control and clearly lost. It needs to fall apart to be rebuilt.
SIGH, and here I thought we had a unique candidate, whereas it appears
he might be just another pol in new clothes.
I need a drink...
Insofar Obama speaks of change, he is another fucking fraud in a long line of the same.
DC and its current power structure need to fall hard by any means necessary.
Why do americans work and pay taxes only to pay for a government that can and does spy on them inviolation of the Constituion with impunity? All American W-2 workers should quit working for several weeks/months and cut off DC's lefe blood, taxes. Let DC collapse and then rebuild anew with all new faces.
You might cut him some slack, but I'm too much of a patriot to cut anyone slack who undermines the Constitution. Caving in to Bush is not my idea of "new" leader - how many more times will he "cave" for corporate Amerika?
.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
So I'm in...no money for such a stand on FISA!
.
By the way freaker, there's no such thing as an "islmofascist." Have a nice day.
But don't use "Islamofascists."
It's a loaded, racist, emotionally charged and imprecise Fox News term that does nothing to define the terrorism problem and tars a religion of 2 billion people.
(Or do you call the KKK Christofascists?).
I'm sorely pissed that yesterday, again and again, his campaign workers told callers that he would vote against the bill. A worker stated to me, firmly, that his vote would be No.
http://www.alternet.org/election08/88093/?ses=c...
Unbelievable...
JUNE 20, 2008 - Friday
The day I lost my enthusiasm for Obama.
Didn't that work out well?
Obama campaign (866) 675-2008 [Dial 6, then 0, on the menu
To reach the Campaign Headquarters by phone, please call: (866) 675-2008
Along with stating that if he votes for FISA with the immunity clause included, then he loses all of my support and probably my vote, but I also want an explanation of why yesterday his phone worker stated emphatically that his vote would be No.
Yes, he's way better than McSame, but then so is your dog.
Dodd for Majority Leader.
Send an email to Obama's campaign: ddozier@barackobama.com
Put in the subject line something like: Please remove me from the Contributors List
And then tell Obama to tighten up and stand up like a leader and fillibuster in the Senate - if immunity is not removed.
This time next week we'll know if Obama is for real or he's just another spineless Dem. The 4th Amendment lies in the balance - not to mention previous crimes committed by this administration.
Unfortunately that person never seems to run for office.
A little history:
http://www.911blogger.com/node/16232
What is clearly stated in the Constitution as our right has been taken away.
...
What a joke. We've all been had, yet again. There is no change, only more worthless talk. Yet another empty suit politico.
None Of The Above '08!
NO ONE in 2008!
Sorry, Obama. You lost me. You should that you are more concerned with protecting corporations than with protecting the Constitution.
Hey Obama - you got 5 minutes? Or did you forget that the people of this country "believed in you?"
And one more thing Obama - ask yourself this: How do you think it looks to be kissing the ass of the most unpopular pResident in American history (19% approval) AND, AND, AND, AND subverting the Constitution at the same time? Tell us Mr. Obama, how you can do that and then turn around and lie to the people who put their absolute trust in you?
I want Obama to become a great President - up there with Lincoln and Kennedy, et al. But he cannot and will not if he capitulates, even one time, and only one time, and subverts the constitution and protect criminals at the same time. He has one chance left. He will define himself next week in the Senate.
Get real people. This is not an all or nothing proposition, or more precisely, our party needs to learn that it isn't an all or nothing proposition. The reality is, this is a fight of the Dems vs the GOP, McCain vs Obama, not "perfect progressivisism" versus nothing. Not voting for and even campaigning for Obama is the same thing as voting for McCain.
Sorry peoples perfect little worlds are shattered, but welcome to reality where compromise and sometimes even caving in are pretty normal parts of life.
I always appreciate your comments but this is the Fourth Amendment that is about to be gutted for all time because of its precedence. This isn't erosion, it's cut and paste gone.
Obama could end this in a heartbeat and do the absolute right thing. And, not to be an ass, I think the "crowd would go wild" with support.
This is horrible.
Peace.
Many on the left are T'd off because when it came time to stand up - and BE A LEADER - Obama took the easy way out and slid out the back door.
I would say that all Obama would have to do is say something like this: "I support the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, therefore I cannot support this legislation as written and will vote no on its passage."
Just my very humble opinion.
There are no heros.
Listen to Turley:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/06/20/turley...
If Obama votes for this bill, even with immunity removed, then I will withdraw my support of his campaign and most probably will not vote for him.
Why, I'm beginning to think is lack of votes on so many issues is so he didn't look like a complete liar when the election campaign came around. /sarcasm
The country also is calling for US drilling. The Right is about to win again with the millions of idiots living in this country.
One of the things that concerns me most is another thing that Turley has pointed out. Even when the current FISA expires in August, it will continue to remain in full force and effect for another full year. There is absolutely no need or reason for this to be voted on now. There is no emergency.
Turley seemed to think that its passage would only provide legal cover for not only Bush/Cheney but also for the many top level Dems that knowingly supported their actions and that that was the ONLY real reason for them to be so desperate to get it passed before the election.
I still cannot believe that Obama would be in support of this in any manner.
I'm completely disillusioned. Call me naive, but I expected more from a professor of constitutional law.
Allot of you folks have not grasped the ramification of the the "two party system" yet, have you???
+
Of Course, he is still my candidate and I do expect really good things from an Obama presidency but, I still really do not agree with this issue.
But, anyone who expects to agree with the votes or choices 100 percent with any candidate is foolish. This one is a mistake but, he has his reasons and I have mine for disagreeing.
However, I also expect most of this nonsense like FISA, ect., to be part of the past once Obama does get into office.
Sure we are disappointed but, I assume there are reasons for Obama supporting it. It most likely has to do with getting elected. You cannot change anything if you don't get elected.
And I also expect to see Obama move to center for the same reason. Especially with that National Journal rating dogging him and now being in the general he has to prove he is not a fringe lefty crazy man.
I would advise you guys to expect him to be a bit more centrist in the coming months and remember that it is to get enough indies and crossovers to beat McShame and win more states and electoral numbers.
It is what has to be done for democrats to break the cycle of republican rule. But, I do firmly think that obama will abolish and revamp many of the odious bills like this FISA one once he is safely sworn in.
We have to understand the comprises and 'games' that even a great candidate like Obama has to play in order to be elected. and that is what is the most important. Don't confuse the coming political games and swordsmanship and moving center to win with the man's real ideas and politics.
He will move back and become more progressive after Jan 2009.
So let's not overreact and get this guy elected and remember the policies on his site that he has spelled out. this is pure politics for next few months.
It makes no sense for Obama, a constitutional professor, to do this.
There has to be a reason why.
this bill is personal with me. I am half french. When my family here and family there talk we will be spied on.
So, I do not like this and don't agree with it.
But, Obama is my senator and he is simply not someone who would give Bush more power. There has to be a reason behind it.
I expect Durbin to vote against it. I know this and Obama usually votes similar to Durbin. There is something else as why obama would vote for this thing.
So, I am reserving my anger for now. Let see what happens.
diane lake
-------------- Original message ----------------------
I disagree with most of those people at that gathering. Too hawkish.
I don't think they will be part of the administration. But, he does surround himself with people of all leanings from left to center.
I don't think Obama is going to go hawk. He has too much support from being against this war and his emphasis on diplomacy.
I still think this is alot of show to make him seem more to the center for the general. Most candidates do that in the presidential general election.
Remember Bushie being a compassionate conservative. Right.
there is alot of show and positioning and moving around during the general. They usually go back to there true beliefs once it's over. So, I am guessing this to be the case.
i am hoping I should say.
I don't want a Clintonian style president and Obama has a very progressive record here in Illinois.
diane lake
-------------- Original message ----------------------
What evidence or even suggestions of evidence do you have that Obama will "move back and become more progressive after Jan 2009"?
I did read that the leadership and obama were going to do a series of bills that would be to position him for the fall.
I live in Illinois. Obama has a solid progressive record and he is very much of the constitution. He would not be a centrist or a Clintonian style democrat. there is nothing to suggest it.
But, he is also taking hits for that National Journal ranking and it has hurt him.
I will say this bill is personal to me. I am half french. My family talks to my family here. This bill means we will be spied on if we have not already. So understand, I personally hate this.
But, I do think based on his record, his strong constitutional background and his dislike of Bush, that there has to be more to this then meets the eye.
I am simply trying to understand and guess as to what is going on based on all this. It makes no sense.
But, I am reserving my anger and emotion until more information comes along. Too many times have we on the left over reacted to something this past year only find out a day or two later that the reasoning made us look silly. I don't want to eat crow tonight so, let's see what happens in the senate.
diane lake
-------------- Original message ----------------------
I really hate to come across as being so shrill about this but it is, by vote, an absolute subversion of the Fourth Amendment to protect the guilty.
I hate it.
But, I cannot see why the dems would go along without a reason of some kind. They do have to be elected in the fall as well.
It's suicide. So, there has to be something going on. I am only trying to understand what. why. I know the leadership is trying to position Obama for the fall. I am guessing, only guessing, this may be one of them because they need to get indies and moderates to win.
I do think many of these odious bills will be remedied once Obama is in office. But, he has to get there first. and so, I am preparing for some disappointing things because he has to tack to the center right now.
But, I do hate this fisa thing. I am just trying to find out why they did this.
diane lake
-------------- Original message ----------------------
I hope you ARE right.
Very cogent analysis. Thank you.
Plus the Blue Dogs do need something to take home for re-election. The freshmen.
I do think Obama is kill this nonsense if elected. But, he first needs to get in. This may just be a ploy to do that so these things can be killed off.
It's only a guess.
diane lake
-------------- Original message ----------------------
If he isn't going to support the Constitution now, why should he when he is President? Just because he's such a good guy he wouldn't WANT to do something unConstitutional? Baloney!
Sen. Obama swore to defend the Constitution when he was admitted to the Senate. Certainly doesn't look like with this. And is he going to treat the oath he takes on January 20, 2009 the same way?
I said I did not agree and it upset me. what I am trying to do is find out answers and clues.
The article was simply to say, listen, here may be some reasons behind it.
It goes without saying how much people hate this, including me.
I am looking for answers as to why and what maybe going on. I do think some of this is positioning for November. There was an article I read about a week ago saying that the leaders were going to put certain things up to position the nominee for November.
I am guessing this is one. But, in no way was I expressing my support for it.
I am just trying understand what maybe the reason for this.
diane lake
-------------- Original message ----------------------
"Even when the current FISA expires in August, it will continue to remain in full force and effect for another full year. There is absolutely no need or reason for this to be voted on now. There is no emergency."
and
"Turley seemed to think that its passage would only provide legal cover for not only Bush/Cheney but also for the many top level Dems that knowingly supported their actions and that that was the ONLY real reason for them to be so desperate to get it passed before the election."
thus
As Olbermann points out and with which Turley agrees,
FISA = CYA
I wonder if that silence will be as deafening when the Congress of Collusion, decides that We the People no longer need the First or Second Amendment?
Across the 'net, the natives are restless and the anger at this capitulation is growing. Just take a look around.
This morning, I was listening to the call-in show on C-Span after the House vote for the FISA rewrite. It seemed most all callers from Republicans, Democrats and Independents were equally outraged by the bill's passage in the House. No one but Washington insiders approved of this bill. No one but your average corrupt politician benefits from passage of this appalling bill either.
I still prefer Obama to Hillary, unless this is the kind of performance we can expect once he's elected. For now, I'm still voting for him, but no more contributions from me to him or anything connected with Rahm Emmanuel, Nancy Pelosi, Steny Hoyer or any of the other sell-outs on FISA in the Democratic party or its organizations. These people serve corporate rule, not the American people, period.
It's beginning to sound like the same old stuff, just a slicker, smoother package.
I remember when JFK said we would be on the moon by the end of the 1960's. America should be demanding ANSWERS and PLANS---SPECIFIC ideas about how to change the direction of the country.
So far, there have been little details. And Sen. Obama's stand concerning his pledge of public financing of his campaign and his support of telecom immunity and government snooping of our phone communications sounds like the same broken promises and Big Brother, Big Corporate Malarkey.
I can break promises when it is advantageous to me and we must FEAR the evil-doers.
Indeed, Obama & McCain are one where domestic spying is concerned.
John Dean offered up some hope, saying that while the bill contains *legal* immunity (as in lawsuits) for the telecoms, it does NOT preclude the possibility of bringing CRIMINAL charges later on, something that Obama has been saying all along that he would consider doing.
Think about it. He is charismatic, everyone LOVES him, but no one can tell us why they love him except he seems to be the opposite of Bush. Yet, when the stuff hits the fan, he still wants to demolish the Constitution and bend rules to his advantage.
Have the last 7+ years set us up for this?
Always question.