African Americans are less than 10% of the total population in California, so blaming them for 8 passing is just ignorant. That being said, it is really frustrating that a group that should recognize bigotry does not. Part of the problem is the traditional role of the church for many African Americans. The church was a sanctuary. Most of the civil-rights movements were born in churches. Unfortunately, today they are free to spew hatred.
green_libertarian
· 1 year ago
Heysus Christ, John, why keep promoting this sub-100 IQ bullshit? (Yellow journalism at it's worst.)
BooHoo
· 1 year ago
And the Mormon Church is almost 100% white. There are major in-roads to be made with the Black community, true, but this is almost a red herring in this particular argument.
smiling_dog
· 1 year ago
What's the point? That we shouldn't vote for a black man unless black people accept homosexuality? Let's hope that Obama will lead people in a positive direction and bring about a different attitude. In the meantime, I think that the Mormon Church has a little more to answer for than the African American community.
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
"Gay people need to openly point the finger and say it's not okay to be bigots just because you are black and have suffered yourself!"
The statement above is why this line of attack is doomed to produce nothing but failure and animosity IMO. To be frank, sure there is homophobia in the black community, but are we now asserting that all black people are homophobic or that black people are more homophobic than the general populations? As it's been pointed out REPEATEDLY, sure a high percentage of black people voted for Prop 8, but compared to the overall vote count it wasn't the deciding factor.
That being said, not only is the above statement erroneous in its assertion of the importance in the black vote, it automatically is asserting that the "defense" for black people voting for Prop 8 is because we somehow believe its OK to be bigoted becaue bigotry is/has been directed at us. The word is called prejudice, look it up. How dare you assume that a population of people will have one single reason for supporting or not supporting a piece of legislation, you are basically imposing your world view with little more than the brown stuff you pulled out of your butt. If anything, religion is probably a far bigger player in this drama than any perceived reverse-bigotry assertion.
No one is saying it isn't OK to question why so many black people apparently supported Prop 8, but do it with an open mind and be prepared to listen, not just accuse. I would assert that the larger issue is that the public education needed to frame Prop 8 the way it should have been (a direct assault on civil liberites), may have resulted in a different public perception.
Just a thought.
decotodd
· 1 year ago
I think it is VERY relevant that a lot of us in the gay community raised money and volunteered for Obama and then got stabbed in the back by the black community who voted to take away our fundamental rights.
Ratio was about 70/30 in CA (and around the same in FL) so there is clearly a disturbing pattern here of homophobia in the black community that made the difference in CA
BooHoo
· 1 year ago
The important point to remember is that an Obama election wasn't a vote for the Black Community exclusively. It was a vote for the sanity of the American people.
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
In other words, Obama was a way to placate us black folks? Bribe us into being good little house negros that will be expected to repay some "debt" in kind? Maybe someone didn't tell the black folks in CA it was time to pay up for supporting our boy Obama?
The funny thing is, people hem an haw so much about what amounts to the 3rd largest minority group in the country. In-an-off ourselves, black people can't get a dog catcher elected on the federal level, and I daresay in most states (especially California). So once again the Democrats commit the perfect lobster pot paradigm, as soon as one of us tries to climb out, the rest pull that one back into the boiling water.
However, feel free to dump on the single most reliable Democratic voting block, that sounds like a wonderful recipe for self-destruction in upcoming elections. Sure there is some homophobia in the black community, but I'd still take my chances there than in say, the GOP base, where most would love nothing more than to do a little gay-bashing.
dula
· 1 year ago
"sure there is some homophobia in the Black Community"? I would say 70% is more than "some". You can try and spin your bullshit 'till your head falls off, but a People who know what discrimination and intolerance is (The Black Community) should not turn around and do it to others. It's called integrity. Yes, the abused usually grow up to abuse others but don't whine and complain when you get called on it.
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
Riight, all us black folks hate gay people. Given your response, I can almost see it. My point, as I said before, is people are using a lot of should of/would of/could of instead of shutting their mouths and asking a simple question, why?
I am not saying don't question the reasons, just don't assume you have a fucking clue.
dula
· 1 year ago
If the AP exit polling is accurate, 70% of Black CA voters are ignorant in regards to Gay Rights. PERIOD. Why? I don't give a shit. I'm sure racist Whites have their reasons for fearing/hating Black folks too. Your argument is ridiculous.
sukabi1
· 1 year ago
sounds like you know something about ridiculous arguments -- and racism, since you're displaying both. 70% of 10% of the population is hardly equal to the amount of votes that 49% of the white voters brought to the table. Unless you're positing that whites only make up about 15% of the population of California --- which we all know isn't true...
dula
· 1 year ago
I didn't say only Blacks passed Prop 8 you dumb ass...I said Black people should fucking know better than Whites what bigotry is.
sukabi1
· 1 year ago
and you should know that there isn't any group in this country that hasn't at some point in their ancestral histories IN THIS COUNTRY been discriminated against -- but you singled out the Black population....
now to get some perspective:
what percentage of those voting in favor of prop 8 were female? Native American? Chinese? Japanese? percentage Jewish? percentage Irish? percentage German?
All of these groups of humans have been treated as less than equal to upper class white males in this country, and not in any insignificant way. And all should know what bigotry is, and yet a large part of these groups likely voted to pass prop 8 as well. So what does that tell you?
green_libertarian
· 1 year ago
What, and you didn't KNOW what Barack's position was on gay marriage? Or you did, and you worked for him and raised money for him anyway? And NOW you're bitching? How ignorant are you? Never mind.
ScootFL
· 1 year ago
I don't see where they had a choice. Barack claims to be open-minded to change, which is a heck of a lot more than McCain and Palin were promising the gay community.
And Barack is against gay marriage (which is one of the worst things about his character IMHO), but he isn't against a gay couple raising kids or against gays visiting each other in the hospital as family members. The amendment in Florida was more about taking away people's rights to just exist and to be gay. Close-minded, ignorant Floridians that voted for Amendment 2 were pretty much setting the table to make it easier for gays to even be seen in public and even make being gay a crime (that's the goal of those hateful morons who put forth Amendment 2 in Florida).
happycozy
· 1 year ago
So let me get this reasoning straight. You worked to get Obama elected and somehow blacks owe it to you for getting him elected? That's just strange reasoning. First it assumes there is some familial tie between blacks and Barack--that you got a family member a job, and now the family owes you. Second it implies that you only voted for Barack to help out the black "family." Blacks are not a monolithic group, and they shouldn't be treated as such. For one, there are--wait for it--gay black people. And like all gays, they too were subjected to bigotry because of their sexual orientation.
I find this whole argument of vilifying blacks for the passage of prop 8 troubling. It reminds me of what the Republicans were doing a few months ago. They were blaming the financial meltdown of global markets on ACORN, Fannie, and Freddie. Their argument was because ACORN forced Fannie and Freddie to lend to poor urban folks (i.e., blacks), banks began failing. There just ain't enough black people to screw the entire global market. Likewise, there weren't enough blacks to ban gay marriage on their own. Alot of non-blacks vote for prop 8, too.
I hope that this goes to the U.S. Supreme Court and the ban gets tossed out. If it does, then gay marriage bans across the country will get tossed, too.
funkytreetown
· 1 year ago
1)Homophobia is discrimination. If you tolerate discrimination against one group you are endorsing the discrimination of anyone. 2)This whole idea of legislating permissible sexuality is a joke. We should all email pictures to our state legislators of ourselves performing our favorite sex acts and ask them if it's ok. You know, get a fucking license from our government, a fellatio permit, a monkey spanking certificate. Hell, tax the Mormons, make them pay for multiple fucking permits. Arnold would have needed a lot of BJ permits back in the day. 3)Love between ANY two people is OK. Period.
High Crimes & Misdemeanors
· 1 year ago
LOL = a fellatio permit!!!!!
keineFurcht
· 1 year ago
We need to not go around blaming people and figure out what we're going to do to fix this mess. A start would be having competent people running the show. We also need to educate people. Pointing fingers at a single ethnic group, or claiming that they owe us anything because we voted for a black dude is antithetical to the idea of reducing prejudice.
I'm pissed too, but it's not black people's fault, and it's ridiculous and bigoted to claim that it is.
ScootFL
· 1 year ago
I agree. Everyone who voted for these amendments were doing so because they're either hateful or ignorant. We pretty much can't do anything about the hateful citizenry, but the ignorant ones (of all colors) aren't a lost cause. I agree with what John A. said too earlier today in a post where he pretty much stated that the fight against Prop 8 in California was pretty weak when it came to tearing down the false claims from the other side. I guess that could be called the "Kerry plan", where the candidate or supporter of an idea just lets lies fester out there for the ignorant folks to pick up (with Kerry, it was the whole Swift boat thing).
Anyway, it will be a lot easier to get this mess fixed with Obama in the White House rather than McCain.
As a side note, I am very hopeful that Barack ignores Nancy Pelosi to the best of his ability. She was too weak and "centrist" to bring up even the possibility of impeachment proceedings against Bush. So I doubt she'd be any willing participant in restoring the civil rights of individuals if she thought it was a move too far to the left. Pelosi's one of those ignorant Democrats that thinks liberal is a bad word. With her influence and control in the Senate, I think a lot of good things still won't be done in this country within the next few years.
High Crimes & Misdemeanors
· 1 year ago
Two things need to happen in the Obama Administration: get rid of pelosi and ried. I hope that happens!
flowerofhighrank
· 1 year ago
Okay. Nobody's asking anybody for reciprocal fairness. I guess we just figured, hey, if you're against discrimination for this group, maybe you'd be against discrimination for everybody. I remain shocked at three things: -African-Americans were not allowed to marry whoever they wanted until 1968 in 16 states. I would've thought the memory of that would have sunk in. -Mormons were actually chased ACROSS THE UNITED STATES for their beliefs about marriage, eventually ending up at the worst farmland in the entire nation (SLC area; yes, it's a real salty lake- not so good for people). Joseph Smith and his brother, Hyrum, were assassinated for standing up for their beliefs. I dunno; I thought the memory of their revered leaders being murdered would've made some kind of impression. -Until 1978, the Mormon church did not allow African-Americans to be Elders, male members of the church who go on missions, hold leadership roles in the church hierarchy and the like.
Both groups look across a desert of past oppression. They look into mirrors. I guess they didn't see each other.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
If you are going to use the black analogy, then add these facts. How many years were blacks denied their civil rights in this country? We have no other choice but to be "out of the closet" because we cannot hide our skin color.
When did gay people start standing up as a large group and demanding their civil rights? If gays have to wait as long as blacks, it will be hundreds of years before you see gay marriage legal in all 50 states. I don't think you want that.
Do you want to be chased across the country like the Mormons and then still have to give up your beliefs about marriage to be recognized as an American citizen?
Recall
· 1 year ago
Is that when the clock starts? The fact that for thousands of years homosexuality was considered a sin, a crime, and a disease carries no weight?
High Crimes & Misdemeanors
· 1 year ago
When did gay people start standing up as a large group and demanding their civil rights?
--------------------
Doesn't this happen every year in June, July, August with all the gay pride festivals? All be it, they have turned into side-shows for people to gawk and ridicule, never-the-less, they are still a demonstration by gay folks demanding their civil rights.
Dagobert2nd
· 1 year ago
I don't think the blame game is productive and I also don't think this blog entry is worthy of this blog. The blame for this should be placed at the feet of religion, not race. Personally, I also blame the "no on 8" campaign for not 1. reaching out to African-American and Latino communities. and 2. Not being willing to call a bigot a bigot from the beginning. Correct me if I am wrong, but I didn't hear of any efforts to target African-American communities with visits from "No on 8" people, the yes people had thousands of feet on the ground. And every lying tv ad should have been countered with the truth and liars should be called liars. Non of the ads were any good until the last few, and a lot of people vote early here. As someone else said, you can fix the ignorant problem, and if you live in California, the lies by the yes people were flying hot and heavy.
ScootFL
· 1 year ago
Great point - religion is pretty much the key.
My experiences of bigotry, ignorance, and "can't mind their own dang business" from a church has even made it difficult for me to often be near my sister.
My sister's mega-corporation church "teaches" (aka urges them to think) that being gay is a choice people make in their life when they're "confused". The church also believes that people who "choose to be alone" have something wrong with them. I don't go to church (which I'll explain why in the next paragraph) and I am 30 years old, single, and not actively dating. That's pretty much doomed me to constantly swat away requests by my sister to hook me up with one of her church-going friends. See my sister's Baptist and I haven't been "saved". I don't ever plan to be. My sister has given up on convincing me herself, so she's trying to hook me up with one of her single (and most often weird) friends. I asked her why she's bothering me so much and she says its because her pastor told her to be a matchmaker so I'd get "saved" and go to Heaven. My opinion on the matter is that if I'm a good person, I don't need to go to church or get saved to convince me I'm going to Heaven. My sister and her church don't understand or agree with freethinking because "The Bible" tells them there's only one way to go to Heaven and that's being saved. Yeah, you can be a bad person and do awful things, but as long as you're saved, you've got the ticket to ride.
Crazy.
Anyway, to get to my point, ignorant and hateful beliefs about society's differences can pretty much always be tied to religion. Its not just for gays, but for anyone that the church deems "different" and "awkward". I am so happy that I wasn't brainwashed when I was younger to be ignorant and close-minded. I realized years back that church wasn't for me when I was dragged to church by my sister and her husband (who's the one that converted her) to go watch some play at her mega-church called "Heaven's Gates & Hell's Flames". It was one of the most hateful productions that I believe anyone could ever see. In other words, if you're tired of being a good human being, then you should probably start off seeing that play and believing everything it tells you.
Question: How can you stop hatred being taught in churches? I don't think you can stop hateful people from ever becoming pastors, priests, reverends, and ministers. Church is pretty much the only place where they can make people listen to their twisted morals and claim that its "okay" because the Bible says so.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
Like minded people need to fight to secularize our government and laws. These Mega-churches rise and fall. But, the same hucksters will use the same tactics to make themselves wealthy. As a protection from extremism in religion, people to need to be taught that their own self-protection lies in keeping religion and government separate. One religious group may be in the majority today--but who knows which religious group will be in the majority twenty years from now.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
I am black and talked to family members about this issue. I explained to them that this was a privacy and equal protection under the law issue. I also explained to them that despite some of their religious beliefs, it was not fair for them to force their religious beliefs upon others by voting against gay marriage. If you can't vote for it, because of religion, then don't vote against it either. I understand that people in my family have different religious beliefs...I am don't belong to an organized religion. I have a brother who is Muslim. (He said it should be ok for people to make their own choices about who they would marry. While he doesn't support gay relationships because of religion, he doesn't think the government should deny gay people their civil rights. My brother also said that some religions teach against interracial marriage.) My mother said that when she was growing up--people didn't talk about gay relationships in the open. I told her that when she was growing up, interracial relationships were mostly not talked about.
We need to make people understand why the separation between church and state is important. People need to understand equal protection under the law and a right to privacy. When I present these arguments, my church/mosque going relatives understand. You may not be able to change people's minds about their religious beliefs, but hopefully we can all agree that everyone needs privacy, equal protection under the law and separation of church and state.
moreleesafer
· 1 year ago
Well said. I have been making this same argument for a while. I believe I stated several threads back....The Mormons played the Christ card. they knew they could get the black and hispanic votes by playing upon religion. it worked.
the fight for marriage equality needs to be framed as a civil rights issue. Equal protection and equal rights for all. hate should not be legislated.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
Separation of church and state would go a long way towards putting an end to the fight over reproductive and gays rights.
High Crimes & Misdemeanors
· 1 year ago
It's hard to have that happen when many political leaders say over and over and over again: may god bless America, may god bless out troops, god this, god that, god did this, god helped us, blah, blah, blah, blah..... get my point?
Religiosity of this nation is its achilles heel.
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
I find myself wondering what is up with this kind of bigotry in the african-american community - why is the number so high compared with other groups - except mormons?
As for the math: prop 8 lost by ~5%. Assuming 10% of voters African-American? If 50% of Aftrican-Americans were yes on 8, instead of 70%, then .2 x 10% of californians would be taken away from pro8 and presumably given to no on 8. That's 2% on each end, so now the gap would only be 1%. So, the impact was most of the % over 50% - that's a pretty big impact., unless my math is wrong. http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/59.htm
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
I know many people, of all races who honestly believe that homosexuality condems a person to "Hell". While I don't believe in heaven and hell , but they do. My brother says that the government should allow gays to marry, but they will still go to hell. I am the Thomas Paine reading heretic of the family. I stick to the constitutional issues. I don't denounce them as bigots because then I would do the one thing that I am telling them not to do. I would condem them on the basis of differences in religious beliefs.
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
sounds like the right message, but I might remind them that nothing natural can go to hell - if that's what they believe ;)
MaudGonne
· 1 year ago
On the streets of West Hollywood, California, at this moment, about two hundred obviously disorganized but earnest kids are protesting the passage of proposition 8. Three helicopters are covering the demonstration, several TV stations are covering it, and at least one protestor has been beaten mercilessly by three officers with billy clubs. It is really appalling how little this protest, or even the passage of this proposition has mattered to the people who should be concerned. It should never have passed, and would never have passed, if anyone with smarts had paid a small fraction to this issue as was paid to a campaign which has essentially been in the bag for quite some time.
nctodc
· 1 year ago
There's quid pro quo for votes now? Neat. I totally need to cash in on that.
I think John that you're trying to say that gender equality and gender tensions are the same or on the same level with racial equality and racial tensions. IMO they're just not. For a many many straight men seeing two men kissing makes them physically ill. The gay community really needs to understand that. Literally physically ill. Not by choice, but by nature. Many are sickened and fascinated at the same time like Ted Haggard. Hence the self loathing.
That being said- by comparison I don't know a single person who gets sick when they see black people. Racism is also taught, and sexuality isn't. Yes I know that violence against gays can and is taught, but when you're conceived when your brain is developing--at some point a chemical decides if you're going to like boys or girls (or both ) and to what degree. But another different gene tells your brain how much you don't like the other options in that spectrum.
Many of you will disagree and say that anyone who is against homosexuality is just being a bigot and I think that is true in some cases, but the idea needs to be considered and addressed that many straight people are against homosexuality because of their genetics.
Here's food for thought: Who's more disgusted- a completely straight man watching two gay guys have sex or a really gay guy with a vagina in his face?
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
Your logic is tortured at best. An individuals response to gay PDA or the person of a colors skin is not a very reasonable metric to use. For centuries people have been classified and treated differently based on their skin color and the arguement has been postulated that racism is in the genes, hence the reason why some groups were superior to other. That theory is just as much garbage as any one that would postulate racism is taught, but homophobia isn't.
The truth is, there are plenty of examples in nature, including humans, where homosexual displays do not illicite physical respnses of sickness. I would daresay in the human species the repulsion to homosexuality is as much a result of conditioning as it is biology. Again, there's lots of anthropological evidence to suggest that homosexuality has been viewed with varying degrees of acceptance/disapproval throughout history, which suggests a conditioned response not a biological one.
sukabi1
· 1 year ago
You know John, it's this very kind of divisive bullshit that the left has been fighting AGAINST for the last 8+ years. And the kind of tactics that we're supposed to be better than.
If you're going to keep posting comments like this from posters why don't you at least try and offer up some kind of solution / suggestion for change or forward movement? Because it's now starting to look like you're trying to instigate some kind of anti-Obama / anti-black sentiment, and that's precisely the kind of thing you'd have learned at Ted Steven's knee.
I'm calling bullshit. STOP IT. Offer up a solution or quit this crap.
ScootFL
· 1 year ago
Solution: Force someone, anyone in power, and in front of the media, to answer why they think its right to take away a person's civil rights like this if we're supposed to be "The best Nation on Earth". Politicians will just sweet-talk you if you ask them this type of question in private. The only answer is to hound the politician (whoever it is) until they clearly explain why being hateful and prejudiced is okay in some instances and not okay in others. And if that question gets some type of "diplomatic response", as the politicians like to say, then keep bringing it up.
There was a good movie back in the early to mid 80s called "Turk 182" with Timothy Hutton and Robert Urich. I've come to realize that the use of the 1st Amendment used in that movie would pretty much be the only way you can get a politician to face the truth and to get others who agree with you more involved. That is of course IF the politician wouldn't answer you face to face (and when has that ever happened...in a public forum?).
Zimmerman flew and Tyler knew! Turk 182 :o)
sukabi1
· 1 year ago
for the moment I was trying to force a "solution" or at least some sense into the owner of this blog... he's been posting these hit and runs all day and the only thing he's accomplished so far is the equivalent of picking a scab... if he keeps picking without thought and without a solution all he's going to do is create an infection...
drthom
· 1 year ago
This is a bit of a firestarter kind of conversation. But I was reading this and noticed a popup ad for "gaythugdating" at the bottom of this group, smiled to myself, and decided it's important to chime in. Almost universally, people have been saying that the problem with prop 8 passing was organizational difficulty and relative complacency of 'no' folks until they got outspent in the last moments of the campaign by various 'yes' folks. Exit polls show something disturbing, but you have to wonder whether the black people in question -- especially knowing that they would turn out in high numbers for this election -- were targeted by the folks on our side. As a gay black man, I am acutely aware that there is homophobia in the black community, but I am also aware of a reluctance of the mainstream gay community to sensitively target people of color. Something tells me that the black voters were untouched during the course of the entire campaign, as I seriously doubt that the Mormons were underfoot canvassing in the black communities of California. The reason, Bryan, and others, you voted for Barack Obama is a) because he was the right candidate to vote for, and b) because he went after your vote by appealing to something that meant something to you -- keeping in mind that he stated his opposition to this measure. Not because you felt obligated to do the non-racist thing. The question becomes, did we do the same for Proposition 8? Did the mainstream gay community think that black voters were important enough to "go after"? When people start using words like "we" and "they" to refer to gay or black people, you begin to wonder if those people see all of us as being a part of the same larger community. I don't know the pre-spending numbers on demographics, but we might have ourselves to blame on this one.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
I agree. Why make threats and enemies when you can have valid arguments to present. I think asking people if they feel that one dominate group should be able to force their religious beliefs on a minority group.
dula
· 1 year ago
If there were a prop on the ballot that said Black people should not be allowed to marry White people, I wouldn't need an Ad campaign and a bunch of Blacks pandering to me to know that it was a bigoted proposition that I should vote NO on.
I live right outside of LA in the burbs, and I was really disappointed that the Pro 8 crowd got their victory. The 9 votes I brought to the game from family and extended family weren't enough to combat the poor No on 8 campaign nor the money machine of the Mormon church. What disappointed me most was that no one of clout celebrity or political stood up, gay and straight and screamed what needed to be screamed, that being whether one agrees with the rights of marriage, no one should take pride in being a bigot. This message needed to be delivered. People needed to be shamed into placing Yes on 8 signs in their yards, churches should have been ostracized for being pro hate and holding pro hate rallies. This is what was needed I feel. People need to understand that hate isn't tolerable, commercials should have countered the ridiculous "teaching kids in school about men marrying men" argument with teaching kids that some people are not equal to others, lines to have been drawn to link the fight to legalize bi racial marriage, a decision which allowed for me to be born, and me to marry my wife. Again, had I been leading the fight against, or had any say, I wouldn't have made it about marriage, it would have focused mainly on bigotry and hate.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
You are going to shame individual and ostracize churchesto force them to accept your religious or not religious beliefs. Are you for real? What is needed is separation of church and state--a more secular government with a right to privacy and equal protection under the law. Why can't we all just mind our own personal business and enshrine it into law.
jt307
· 1 year ago
I agree with you fully that separation of church and state are fundamental and should be the forefront for a battle like this which should never have to occur. But I live unfortunately in today's America where our beloved newly elected President still has to prove his Christian-ness and take the God oath at that moron's church in Saddleback. I am offended by a Prop like this passing not only because I am an atheist who pledges time and money to causes to remove the church from its place in our politics but also because it is insulting to intelligent people that one's own name, unchosen can be spun and twisted to equal a terrorist by the same hateful people who want to shame and divide a community based on their sexual orientation. To me the liberal/progressive/intelligent community has tried to fight this fight too long on our terms, civility, logic, reason. We get one win in one election and that took the enormous failures of the last eight years it took to deliver it. We need to take that fight to their level sometimes. When a group like this, using fear, ignorance, confusion, and slander tries to divide, shame, and scare the people into socially accepted bigotry we need to call them on it. This does not preclude fighting them in the courts, and continuing to get church and state rightfully separated, it simply means calling it how it is.
The last few weeks as the election loomed I was tempted, out of sheer frustration to go out and pull the "Yes on 8" yard signs from the locals in my neighborhood who displayed them. I decided not to, because I felt that would do other people like me a disservice, those signs should have been painted as scarlet letters of hate and bigotry. The displayer should have been treated with the same vitriol and disdain that the media reserves for a celebrity, politician or sports figure that lets loose a racial stereotype while mic'd up and is caught.
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
not nearly enough fighting back immediately against slime attacks, imo..
dogout
· 1 year ago
My heart aches at the attack that is Prop 8. I have a gay aunt who was forced to "disappear" as a gay woman in the 1950's. The sorrow is deep and never-ending. And for what? Some group hunch on the Most Important Morals while we navigate this very short life we've been given? Imposed by MORMANS for dog's sake!! Give me a break. I take this as one of the main items on the clipboard list for 2009. There's plenty of energy for another righteous push towards justice, equality and humanity. So, it's so not over. Just keep getting better,faster,stronger. Like the great lyrics of the Daft the Vote video, As I learned in typing class back in 1968....Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country. 2008 edition - Now is the time for all good people to come to the aid of the country.
1.6 million ballots are uncounted in California In L.A. County, an estimated 566,000 votes have yet to be tallied. In Orange County, about 239,000 await counting. All must be counted by Dec. 2.
sharksfansd
· 1 year ago
Thanks for the update and link. I was wondering what was up last night on the official elections results page for the state of CA when it came to LA country. Even now I see that the Yes number is coming down from where it as last night for LA county (less than 1% difference now).
sharksfansd
· 1 year ago
Breaking out LA right now (San Diego news just covered):
One more bit on the so-called "christians" who loudly, and often obnoxiously proclaim that their god made absolutely EVERYTHING, BUT darwin, evolution and gays. And then there are the Mormons.....
Reports that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a big supporter of Proposition 8 should sadden all Mormons. Based on the unique history of Mormons, there is no religious group in our country that should be more tolerant of "nontraditional" forms of marriage than those of us whose ancestors were polygamist Mormons, who were persecuted because of theirtheir "nontraditional" marriages.
Have today's Latter-day Saints forgotten that in the 19th century, our ancestors were violently and relentlessly attacked for their "peculiar institution"? Have they forgotten that they pleaded for understanding and tried in vain to prove that they were good parents? Have they forgotten that Utah territory gave our great-great-grandmothers the right to vote in part to prove that they were not downtrodden, and that these ancestors prayed to the Lord for the protection of "celestial marriage" against the hatred directed at Mormons?
On Hannity's board yesterday (I know) there was a polygomous woman arguing for Proposition 8. Unbelievable!
Jessica54
· 1 year ago
I don't have any exit poll information, but I'd be interested to see the break-down by AGE of the segment of black voters who supported the prop. I'm 23, and to be honest, my friends aren't blaming black people, mormons or latinos. They're blaming old people.
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
ha - good point. but they should be blaming mormons for sure. imo.
The Public Policy Institute of California released a survey October 23 showing that 59 percent of likely voters aged 18 to 34 oppose the measure, while 37 percent support it. http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&a...
hipgrandma
· 1 year ago
And blaming old people would assume that all gay people become heterosexual bigots when they reach the age of 60. Just as there are gay black/Hispanic/Native American/etc. people, there are plenty of senior citizens who are gay, and we experience the double whammy of discrimination based on sexual orientation combined with ageism. And sometimes even in our own community.
dogout
· 1 year ago
I blame ignorant people.
EarthquakeWeather
· 1 year ago
Huge protests all over West Hollywood and Hollywood tonight. Ten thousand people plus all over the streets. Has been going on for four plus hours. They are pissed. Local news is covering it. Choppers keep buzzing my building.
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 1 year ago
Good...I hope they go "Stonewall". I am sick and tired of patiently waiting for basic civil rights. Maybe it's time for us fags to learn to shoot guns and start making things nasty and messy.
CPL
· 1 year ago
Sounds like Bryan is a closet bigot to lay the blame for the passage of Prop. 8 solely at the feet of African-Americans.
We're always getting the blame for shyt out of our control, and just because this nation elected a Black Man as POTUS last night, don't think for one minute that African-Americans get an automatic toehold in ANYTHING.
Way to stay classy, Bryan. Too much trouble to do some REAL analysis of why Prop. 8 failed, isn't it, like maybe, anything south of Fresno is full of xenophobes and fundie wingnuts - not to mention the millions of dollars that poured into California from Utah - and the activists got caught flat footed and unprepared because of natural assumption that Californians would do the Right Thing?
I watched Prop. 209 passed twelve years ago - when Californians thought they were voting for a Proposition to strengthen Civil Rights and Affirmative Action, when in fact, the proposition all but eliminated affirmative action in education and contracting.
Bryan, you're a dipshyt and not worth me ranting at your ignorant ass any longer. You're a damned troll and you are an anomaly; GAY AND INTOLERANT.
dula
· 1 year ago
What a cop out! Nobody is saying Black people single handedly passed Prop. 8! You refuse to address the fact that 70% of Black voters in California voted on Nov. 4th to change the state constitution in order to deny Gay people the right to marry...it was very clear on the ballot and for Blacks to lie and say "I thought I was voting for Gay marriage", adds insult to injury. Also, the reason we are focusing more on the Black Community denying Gays their CIVIL RIGHTS than Whites is because BLACK PEOPLE SHOULD HAVE FUCKING LEARNED THE LESSONS OF INTOLERANCE BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN ON THE RECEIVING END OF IT FOR SO LONG. I personally don't need a fucking Ad campaign to tell me what is right and what is wrong.
sukabi1
· 1 year ago
how was the female vote on this issue? Women are still trying to achieve parity with males in this country... and have been for as long as there has been a country.... why aren't you bleating on about the female bigots that voted yes on 8?
dula
· 1 year ago
You are spinning circles around yourself in order to avoid copping to the fact that there is OVERWHELMING homophobia in the Black Community. I don't know what the numbers are for women(though I'm sure it wasn't 70% of women who voted for Prop. 8) but the minorities reported on are split within a few points of each other(Latinos, Asians) And yes I am pissed at others who have suffered discrimination and still voted to discriminate against Gays...Catholic Latinos piss me off, homophobic Jews piss me off though I bet the majority voted against prop. 8(what are the numbers? do you even know?), Asian bigots (though the majority voted against this anti-Gay measure) I haven't found a breakdown of all the minorities on this issue but I doubt they would compare to the ridiculous 70% in the Black Community. Instead of bleating on about how Blacks are being called out on their ignorance I would suggest you admit there is MAJORITY of Blacks who are homophobic...Then we can talk about the other communities that need to raise their consciousness too.
dula
· 1 year ago
Oh I forgot the most important reason why the Black Community is being focused on: The Gay Community came out in force to elect the first BLACK President. We supported Barack Obama with our money and our time and our hearts and our souls but yet and still Blacks found it in their hearts to stab us in the back. When Hillary Clinton wins the Presidency we can talk about how WOMEN threw us under the bus...the bus...the bus...the back of the bus...not so long ago huh?
dula
· 1 year ago
I guess we thought that since there is such an obvious and clear connection between the law in the 1960's denying Blacks the right to marry Whites to Prop. 8 that Black people would just be able to get it. I guess not.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
The problem with the black analogy is this: Do gay people really want to wait as long as black did, for the right to marry the person of their choice? Many people are insulted that because a person is gay, they think being gay is equivalent to hundreds of years of slavery, Jim Crow, denied voting rights, segegation, etc. You are making the wrong argument and making enemies.
Recall
· 1 year ago
'Cause gay people were invented in the 60's. Fail. Homosexuals were being persecuted long before any slave ships left Africa.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
Take your complaints to Congress and the Supreme Court. We did.
Recall
· 1 year ago
You realize this persecution was going on long before the US was founded?
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
Then you should have appealed to Congress and the Supreme Court, a long time ago. What are you waiting for? Blacks suffered civil rights setbacks in the past. But, that didn't stop us from coming back again asking for legal and legislative remedies. If you want to blame blacks for your situation regarding same-sex marriage, then ok. I will no longer advocate to right leaning friends and religious relatives on your behalf. I will just tell them that you blame blacks for passing anti-same sex marriage measures. I can also tell them that you demand that Obama give you same sex marriage rights. Meanwhile, Congress and the Supreme Court can't be bothered, because these office holders are mostly white. You wouldn't want to have to them stand up and say yes or no on same-sex marriage. Don't forget to talk to the Log Cabin republicans about blaming black skin on a vote that was based on religious beliefs, not skin color.
Recall
· 1 year ago
I'm not gay, and it's pretty bigoted of you to assume that I am.
TheCatalyst
· 1 year ago
'Cause there were lots of persecution going on in ancient paintings of Homosexual orgies and such. Fail. Blacks have been persecuted since the first European explorations past the coast of the Mediterranean sea, down the coast of Morocco, and past the boarders of Egypt.
This discussion should not be about who's persecuted more or whose fault this was. It should be how is the Gay community (which includes all races) going to continue the fight for their marriage rights.
nctodc
· 1 year ago
I'd also be curious if Reader Bryan voted for Gov. Schwarzenegger in 2006 because had he not been elected, gay marriage would've been legal in CA long ago.
For the record, 70 percent of African-Americans, according to exits, did not vote for Schwareznegger. 63 percent of whites did. What does that say about white people?
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
I live in Texas and we don't have gay marriage. Texas voters are mostly hispanic and white. So what does it say about hispanics and whites?
I guess the republicans are starting early on the 2010 congressional campaigns.
unrepentant_expat
· 1 year ago
Even If every black person in the state of California voted for prop 8, they were by far out numbered by people of all races who also voted for it. I would not want to be identified as the reason that there are so few minorities in congress and senate, but in fact it is prejudice and ignorance on the part of people of my race. I think that there is some reaching out to churches in all communities and the New Testament reintroduced.
MaudGonne
· 1 year ago
Google has become embroiled in a row about gay marriage, after opponents of same-sex unions in California used the search engine's advertising network to post messages on popular websites against the owner's wishes.
A number of American websites, including the widely read TechCrunch and Create Digital Music blogs, featured adverts backing Proposition 8, which would change California’s constitution to define marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
The adverts appeared on the sites a day before the crucial vote - which Californians will take at the same time as the presidential ballot - and have caused uproar among site owners and readers alike. http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/te...
elizabethcostello
· 1 year ago
Unfortunately this is not the first time John Aravosis has posted inflammatory crap like this without challenging or addressing it.
Look, some of the most LGBTQ-friendly politicians are BLACK. The first two Democratic presidential candidates in 2004 to call for legalizing same-sex marriage were Carol Mosley Braun and Al Sharpton. Not John Kerry, Howard Dean, Dick Gebhardt (whose daughter is a lesbian), or the rest of them. Yes, Al Sharpton! Massachusetts' current governor, Deval Patrick, fought to maintain same-sex marriage in his state when opponents sought to overturn the courts' and the people's will. Numerous elected Black politicians have supported pro-gay legislation.
If you have issues with a particular Black person based on something that other Black people do, that's racism, Bryan. Did you not ever vote for White politicians and regret it when WHITE people went and voted "to enshrine bigotry into law and no one challenges that?" Really? Did you not vote for Clinton or Reagan or Bush I or Bush 2, etc. because white people who strongly supported them also supported anti-gay ballot and amendment measures across the US over the last 20 years? What about DOMA? Or Arnold Schwarzenegger or other WHITE politicians like him who talk out of both sides of their mouths about gay issues? Who'll be left for you to vote for? A Martian?
However wrongly angry you are at Black people--or anyone else who supported and enabled this awful legislation--you should not forget that similar bills have passed in states that are almost ALL white and that rich white people underwrote the damned amendment in the first place. No Black or Latino put this crap on California's ballot, just as I would imagine no Black or Latino person did so in Florida, Arizona, or Arkansas. Or Oklahoma, South Dakota, Virginia, or any of the other places where similar legislation has passed.
Furthermore, Bryan's ignorant comment ignores the fact that BLACK lesbian and gay people are affected by this law. Not all gay people are white, which may be a surprise to him. BLACK people ARE addressing homophobia in the black community--Black LGBTQ and SGL people and our straight Black allies. Before you spout off crap about what people ought to be doing, perhaps try to find out if it's happening or not.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
If Blacks are 10% of the vote and exit polls said they were 70% against....Then that's 7% of the against vote. Just, who are the other 93% who voted against it?
sukabi1
· 1 year ago
it appears that the other 93% are getting a pass ...
eclecticbrotha
· 1 year ago
Just like us progressives to do the circular firing squad thing whenever one of our goals falls short. Blaming 10% of the population for something the other 90% didn't support is really stretching it, though.
I am quite pleased to see that the progressive side is just as quick as those religious conservative baddies to scapegoat the black community for every ill that befalls society. Banks failing? Blame the blacks. Candidates losing at the polls? Claim the blacks are committing voter fraud. Housing market failing? Accuse those coloreds of buying homes they knew they couldn't afford in the first place. Having trouble defeating that anti-gay legislation? Blame 10% of the population to hide your failing to mobilize them and the other 90% of the voters in the state to fight against it.
This isn't something that's been bandied about by anonymous commenters in a blog. Even the great Andrew Sullivan has been attacking the black community about Proposition 8. You guys have tried attacking the people who's support you need in past initiatives and it blew up in your faces. I suggest you learn to reach out to the black community in the future instead of falling back on the same, divisive tactics that have never done a thing to help your cause. Or, you can keep lashing out at the black community and continue to struggle. Its your choice.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
Blacks took many of their civil rights violations to the Supreme Court and the U.S. Congress. Instead of pointing a finger at Proposition 8 voters--take the issue to Congress and get a ruling from the Supreme Court.
eclecticbrotha
· 1 year ago
Hopefully Gloria Allred is already putting that in motion.
The GOP pulls this same crap every 4 years. The came out with gay rights initiatives in 2004 during the presidential season. We need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and come up with a specific strategy to neutralize them on this issue.
unrepentant_expat
· 1 year ago
And while they're at it they might reach out to their own white community and see if they could find some sympathetic votes there. Jesus overturned the tables of the money changers. I don't recall his harassing gays.
dula
· 1 year ago
I suggest you admit that 70% of Black voters (not counting those who didn't vote or aren't registered) are homophobic and think that the Civil Rights Movement was for them alone. It must make you feel real good to have another minority behind you on that bus...I can tell by your smug comment.
LeftCoastOracle
· 1 year ago
This sounds like a job for superman, AKA Barack Obama. He could help by making a statement of support. Although he has said he is opposed to gay marriage he also said he opposed prop 8. I suspect he might have been more vocal about it if the community had pressured him during the campaign. In any case he certainly could speak up now; remind his community that bigotry is bigotry regardless of what color the bigot is.
Bottom line the gay community in CA was caught flat footed on this. They ignored the issue until it was too late.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
What's wrong with the U.S. Congress and the Supreme Court? Did you lay this on Bush, Clinton, Bush, Sr, Reagan? No! Blacks did go to the courts and congress. Why can't you do the same?
LeftCoastOracle
· 1 year ago
Well, we have gone to the California Supreme Court and it ruled in our favor. Then the right wing religious nuts put prop 8 on the ballot and our civil rights were abridged by just a majority vote of Californians - including, apparently, 70% of black voters (or about 7% of the electorate). We're currently back at the supreme court because the civil rights of a protected class cannot be wiped out by just a majority vote; it can only be done legally by a constitutional review which requires a 2/3 vote of the State Legislature and then a majority vote of the pubic.
The U.S. Supreme Court does not rule on what is constitutional under a state constitution.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
I live in Houston. I remember watching news reports about two men who were arrested for committing sodomy. That case was resolved by the Supreme Court in the defendents favor. So was the Loving interracial marriage case. I know the Mormons want to turn out the religious right to help republican candidates when they place anti-gay marriage initiatives on the ballots. Does anyone really believe the Supreme Court will not have the last say?
sharksfansd
· 1 year ago
Agree and this is one of many good reasons (although #1 on my list) to have Obama as President. We have four years to get justices appointed that are going to do the right thing.
As many have pointed out, the core source of California Proposition-8 bigotry lies at the heart of the Christian and Mormon church, and its hateful message cuts a wide resonant swath across American ethnic communities. Whites, Blacks, and Hispanics have all bought into Christian propaganda and share responsibility for its virulent homophobia.
However, as a prominent Christian and African American, not to mention leader of the Democratic Party, it is Obama who now leads the way for those who seek to block the acceptance of LGBT people in mainstream society. He has shown them how and where to draw the line that keeps us shut out, while betraying absolutely no animosity or prejudice against us personally. This is exactly the balance of benign neglect that homophobic Christian America has been searching for.
Much as Clinton caved on the issue of gays serving openly in the military, Obama undermined his flacid support of LGBT rights with his clear statement that "marriage is between a man and a woman". Obama's self-contradictory formal opposition to Proposition 8 didn't discourage the Yes on 8 campaign. They proudly pictured Obama along with McCain on their advertisements, the two candidates united in support of traditional marriage.
Of course, Obama's lack of conviction on same-sex marriage has been no worse than his running mate's, or for that matter, the Democratic Party's cowardice. But Obama has become the undisputed leader of his Party and an inspiration to all Americans who hope to see the nation make a change for the better. If Obama himself won't muster up the courage to oppose discrimination against LGBT folks, how can anyone expect any more support from Democrats as a whole? Is it not clear that it's an issue that Obama has declared "off the table"?
This is truly Obama's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" issue, and it is he who has the opportunity to break the stalemate. But until Obama does some genuine soul-searching on his commitment to social justice, nothing that he says is going to make a difference.
ccrnjr
· 1 year ago
Tell Pelosi and Reid to work with congress and bring a same-sex marriage bill to the floor. Or don't you know how laws are created?
Ethrdg
· 1 year ago
As frustrating as it is to have to say this, I truly believe that Obama--and the Democratic party as a whole--are caught between a political rock and a hard place. If Obama had come out and said, "I support marriage for same-sex couples," he would have risked much of the conservative black vote, as well as the moderate Republicans who voted for him. If he'd lost that middle ground, he'd have lost the election.
Then we'd have President McCain and VP Palin (I shudder at the thought) for the next four years.
In the current social climate, the Republican Party has the luxury of being able to say, "Screw the gays" and not only get their base excited, but also still carry middle-of-the-road voters because gay rights aren't important to a lot of Americans. (I'm gay; my own stepfather has voted for Bush twice and is beside himself because McCain lost.) To a lot of people, political gay-bashing is still acceptable behavior. Look how the Bushies won by tossing us under the bus!
The Democratic party is forced to do a balancing act between supporting the GLBT community and, well, getting elected. While it's infuriating to support someone and still have them say, "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman," Obama/Biden have stated that they are for equal civil marriage rights for gays. While calling those rights something different is insulting, it's much better than having someone in power who supports taking away rights altogether.
While we can't exactly say that many Democrats have been supportive of us, at least we have a party in power that we can attempt to work with. They've got a political high wire to balance on; we've got to work on educating people and changing the current social climate. It may just take a Supreme Court decision. Until then, we've got to play it like a chess game.
Jordan20
· 1 year ago
The real reason Prop 8 passed is apathy on the part of the gay community. So many were just SURE that Prop 8 was going to fail that they didn't even bother to vote. I've read that they're may be up 1M gays in California who aren't even registered to vote. There doesn't seem to be much concern in the gay community for gay rights beyond empty platitudes. I mean, is anyone willing to be beaten for their rights? To die? I don't see this drive AT ALL! in the community. There were numerous times where I'd be holding up 'No on 8 signs' in West Hollywood, and the responses ranged from tepid "thanks for doing this" to outright hostility. WTF? These weren't straight people cursing at me. Blaming the passage of Prop 8 on blacks just doesn't make sense.
dula
· 1 year ago
pure bullshit Jason...yeah, I'm sure "so many" gays didn't show up to vote down McCain because they thought 8 wouldn't pass.
Jordan20
· 1 year ago
It's not bullshit, dula. I have friends who didn't even vote because they knew Obama was going to win the state and, honestly, they weren't too worried about Prop 8. Apathy, Apathy, Apathy is what passed Prop 8. Look, I know you're pissed, I am too. But you're misdirecting your anger. It should be at the 'No on 8' campaign which was absolutely pathetic, and basically seemed to only say "We need to raise more money than the other side!!!1!!!1." It was unfocused and incoherent. Blame the Mormons and Krazy Kristians who spent, advertised, duped, etc the voting public. The LGBT community and activists sadly underestimated the effectiveness of their money and tactics. Perhaps the religious nuts knew they'd lost on the presidential and focused instead on Prop H8te for a victory with which to continue to rally their forces of hate. But THEY are the perpetrators here...not a small segment of the very large supposedly liberal California voting population.
dula
· 1 year ago
Your friends need a swift kick wakeup call. The No on 8 campaign may have been unorganized but that doesn't justify a struggling Community (Black) voting to pass on bigotry to another group of people. I'm not saying Blacks are soley responsible for passing this hate measure but I am saying they should be able to see themselves in our fight for our Civil Rights. The fact that they can't or won't says a lot about them and the entire human race...doomed.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
Grow up. This reminds me of the 60s, when we found out a mixed race couple active in anti-war and liberation efforts were involved in domestic abuse. While we condemned the acts of the husband and confronted him, it did not turn us against fighting for the rights of black people.
When did we start caring so much about marriage--a religious practice? Why would someone want to buy into a practice that condemns them? Civil unions and civil laws should be what is strived for., I was married by a justice of the peace almost 50 yrs ago and never missed a thing, including the divorce.
Anyone who believes that the white youth protests going on in SoCal are going to have any effect is nuts. Anything worth having is worth educating people about and there didn't seem to be any effort at that on Prop 8 among minorities--except for white gays talking among themselves.
Do you really think poor blacks and Hispanics funded Prop 8? Do you understand why blacks turned to to the religion promulgated by whites during the centuries they were enslaved and oppressed? Do you also understand that for many minorities, gay issues ARE white issues when they see only white reps of the gay community talking about these issues? Has anyone done a profile of the 18,000+ couples married recently? Poor people of all races are the least likely to marry, no matter what their sexual orientation.
It's very easy to fall into the race trap--I would advise against it, and go forward.
Indigo
· 1 year ago
Grow up? The anti-gay hate trap is the topic, not racism.
mmedefarge
· 1 year ago
but don't you see how it is all connected? Hatred and misunderstanding grow out of oppression.
It is truly unfortunate that prop 8 passed , and I pray that the court challenge swiftly upholds civil rights in California. But I think it is incorrect to scapegoat a group whose own family structures and ability to marry have been gutted by the social policies of this country.
Indigo
· 1 year ago
Of course I see how it's all connected. Do you see how your exclusionary privleges harm others who do not share your preferences?
mmedefarge
· 1 year ago
I am unclear as to what I could have said that let you to say that my "exclusionary privileges harm others"....I thought that my message spoke to how oppression and hatred often foster more of the same. I was trying for some sort of understanding rather than more discord. I am proud to live in the only state where we all can marry the partner we choose.
dula
· 1 year ago
I don't need an Ad campaign to tell me what is right or wrong. The wording on the ballot was clear. I didn't need Blacks knocking on my door to know that Rev. Wright wasn't a radical, that Obama wasn't a Muslim or a Socialist or a Terrorist. What you're saying is Blacks and Latinos are too stupid to understand the issue and that White Gays deserve Prop. 8 because they didn't go to Compton and beg for their Civil Rights. You may be older but you certainly aren't wiser.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
That's certainly not what I said or implied. Who ran the No on 8 campaign? There certainly are class issues involved and no one can deny that. We saw how the right exploited the working class during the election campaign--no rights organization should let that go, either. Everyone deserves rights--everyone--and progressives fighting among themselves resolves nothing.
dula
· 1 year ago
I agree that Class is part of the problem...and therefore an education issue. Blacks as a whole are less educated due to higher poverty rates due to discrimination. Another reason that Blacks think Gay rights is a White issue is because Gay Black people are too afraid to come out to their families and Churches in order to raise their consciousness...which brings me back to my original point : There is rampant homophobia in the Black Community and they are all defensive about being called on it now by saying White people just don't do enough outreach.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
And while I'm at it...does anyone notice that all the gay ads on this blog feature whites? I think I saw a black man maybe 6 months ago. One. Just one, out of all the years I've been coming to this site.
Where's the outreach, even in ads?
And don't forget the gender divide, or others, in the LGBT community, either.
Indigo
· 1 year ago
And they're all under 30. So what?
spectral_ev
· 1 year ago
For a passionate defense of human rights from a proud black lesbian check out Pam's House Blend. she has close coverage of the religious/political right and all the anti-gay legal tactics and she has a lot to say about the black, anti-gay, demagogic ministers who are making a career off this. and she's not prejudiced, she's married to a white woman, and they live in the south. she's one of many black writers who support gay rights.
foxy
· 1 year ago
Two thumbs up for Pam's House Blend.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
I have the greatest respect for Pam Spaulding. Everyone should go to her blog and read her 7 am posting this morning. It's going to get very nasty, and the LGBT community needs to gear up.
I'm still wondering about the falling out between John and Pam and why she was abruptly cut from posting on this blog. John?
Any answers?
Happy_Housewife
· 1 year ago
Homophobia is driven by the the black churches. They use gays as a scapegoat so they don't have to discuss, or take any responsibility, for the real problems in black culture.
The neighborhood I live in has a slew of black churches. Most of them seem to be cults of personality - at least it seems that way from their signs (they all have pictures of the preacher on them)
Most of the black folks I know who don't attend these ridiculous churches have no problems with gays or lesbians. It's the ones who go sit in those pews for hours at a time (their services last forever - even longer than the Catholics) who get brainwashed.
PinkDog
· 1 year ago
I'm stunned by some of what I'm reading here.
I also don't understand the logic of the original claim. The claim is that minorities should always support other minorities, regardless of whether they agree? Just knee-jerk support? Regardless of how they feel as individuals?
It would make more sense to work to change the way they feel as individuals. And "openly point[ing] the finger and say[ing] it's not okay to be bigots just because you are black and have suffered yourself" is not the way to do so effectively. When does a hostile approach ever work as well or thoroughly as a more tempered one?
dranonymous
· 1 year ago
I'm a queer person of color and a social scientist in training. Some thouhgts here about how to understand the exit poll that's the source of this latest kerfuffle and why it's REALLY REALLY REALLY important to understand that this is an opportunity for engagement on racism AND homophobia rather than a way to perpetuate both. http://www.passtheroti.com/?p=829
TheCatalyst
· 1 year ago
There is homophobia in the Black community BUT, I bet money that that 70% of Black folk who voted for it were outnumbered by the 49% of White people who also voted for it; you have to look at raw numbers. 10 Black people total could have voted and 7 voting for it makes 70%. Singling out one group and saying "Black folk killed it" is wrong because there's one thing that those Black, White and Hispanic people have in common and that's RELIGION and that's how they voted. I have no doubt that a KKK member, a Blood, a Latin King and a Mormon could all hold hands and vote for blocking it because they all have the same religious mindset. THAT'S why nobody is challenging it! If 90% of White people handed McCain the election and said it was because of race, you'd better believe me & my peoples would be out in the streets tearing shit up and fighting back.
Now, am I defending my people on the homophobe stuff? No, but what I am defending them against is placing the blame squarely on them. That's like saying Black people were instrumental in getting Obama the election. Yes we were VERY important but ultimately we are ONLY 12-15% of the total population. It's a ludicrous charge.
I'm sorry it passed Bryan, but you should not be shooting at the leaves when the tree trunk is staring your in the face.
@ Happy_Housewife - They don't use Gays as scapegoats. I guarantee you there are more than a few Gays in the church choirs and on boards. In fact a lot of churches use the word to encourage us to rise up, lift ourselves up and take care of each other. By the way, services are usually and hour or 2, I don't know what kind of Black churches you've been to.
nsr
· 1 year ago
Ok, Bryan, sure, go ahead and be a bigot. If that's what it boils down to for you.
TheAstrolabe
· 1 year ago
why are Blacks being scape goated for this? and yes John A. loves to do inflame this black/gay tension thing on here...I really dont know why.
what about all the white MORMON money that was pumped in to help defeat this thing?
what about the homophobia driven by WHITE evangelical churches? Are white churches in the US all accepting of homosexuality now?
as ccnjr said If Blacks are 10% of the vote and exit polls said they were 70% against....Then that's 7% of the against vote. Just, who are the other 93% who voted against it?
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
"Why are blacks being scapegoated for this?" It's just the way the cookie crumbles. Look back just four years. Who got the blame for the disastrous Bush reelection? Gays. Gays were blamed because the issue of gay marriage was said to have brought out the Christian vote for Bush. Even some prominent black leaders and ministers shared this view publicly. Did the Christians get blamed for being so stupid as to allow their bigotry to cause them to reelect a man and a Party we all knew were a disaster? No, despite the war and the non-existent WMD's, etc.ete.etc.. the Christians were not blamed for their stupidity. Did John Kerry's lackluster performance in the debates get blamed? No. Did the ugly lies spread by the GOP Swiftboaters get blamed? No. Did his poor campaign get blamed? No. The talk at the time was that the issue of gay marriage reelected Bush, and Democrats in droves turned on us. People like to scapegoat, and gays are a frequent target, as the black community well knows.
LIke it or not, blacks are now being blamed for enshrining bigotry in California's constitution. Are other groups partially responsible? Of course. But there is no doubt that blacks were the group that far and away gave the most support to Proposition "Hate". The majority of whites and Asians voted against the measure. Latinos were closely divided. But over 70% of blacks voted in favor of denying gay rights - primarily those with the least education. It's a fact. Even the so called "Christian" vote was not as strongly in favor of Prop 8 as the blacks. Had Obama not been on the Democratic ticket ..... Had only the usual number of blacks bothered to vote in this election, Proposition 8 would have been easily defeated instead of winning by a very slim majority. So I'm afraid you're stuck with the blame, or scapegoating, if you wish to call it that. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.
TheAstrolabe
· 1 year ago
so white Evangelical Christians and Mormons are trying to raise their social status too by trying to "push gays down" what kind of buggered up logic is that.
And now its "blacks turn" to take the heat for something? more faulty logic.
if you want to blame a possible 7 percent of Californias voting population on Prop 8 not winning, be my guest. Whatever it takes you to sleep at night and keep your little culture war going.
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
As I see it, black support for bigotry is a stain on the black community. I'm so happy Obama won, and so sorry that blacks were the most enthusiastic supporters of Prop "Hate" of any group. It certainly turned my election night joy into an emotional roller coaster ride, as my marriage is one of the ones enthusiastically voted down by the black community for whom I was so happy. Let anyone who has ever had their marriage put to a popular vote, and then overturned be the first to judge me. Nevertheless I remain very happy for the black community and what the election of Mr. Obama means for them, and for us all. I hope he sets a desperately needed example for young blacks of personal responsibility, devotion to family, and reverence for education. And yes, tolerance.
I also firmly believe that Proposition 8 will be defeated in the courts, and eventually gay marriage will be common in every state, just as once forbidden interracial marriage now is. I sincerely hope the black community can learn to rise above their prejudices and join in this important civil rights movement. Otherwise they will be left behind, just as the racial bigots of the old South now find themselves.
I see that you would rather engage in angry replies and personal attacks than deal with the actual issue. I'm not into that kind of thing. I won't be responding again. Feel free to post as you like.
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
Most of us assume that any group that has been victimized by bigotry would automatically be the last group to be bigoted. That is never true, and it is certainly not true in this case. Though it is certainly not true of all African Americans, the black community as a whole has always shown an enormous prejudice against gay people, and has always resented any comparison between the prejudice blacks experienced and the prejudice that gay people experience.
On Tuesday, more educated blacks voted against Proposition 8, while less educated blacks (unfortunately the majority) voted overwhelmingly to strip gays of their right to marry. Many did so at the urging of their pastors.
But I believe the most important factor in the overwhelming support for the anti-gay Proposition among the black community was the issue of societal status. Whether we realize it or not, we all rank ourselves and others according to status in society. And those at the lower end are the first to jealously guard their status. When you get right down to people's basic motivations, no one wants to be at the bottom. And this election provided the perfect opportunity for African Americans to raise their social status as a group. Unfortunately at the same time it also gave them the opportunity to push gay people down a notch or two by officially declaring them unworthy of the status of matrimony. As one radio commentator said, "Gay is the new black." I think this psychological motivation played a huge part in the African American vote on Tuesday, and thus sadly tarnished Obama's victory. Gay people flooded the streets in San Francisco to celebrate the election of Obama, but the celebration quickly ended with the news that our right to marry had just been revoked. The Christian Coalition is greatly encouraged by Tuesday's vote in California, and has said that they will now attempt to ensure that every State constitution is amended to deny gays the right to marry. Our society has a lot of healing to do, and that includes treating gay people with the respect and dignity they deserve. Perhaps President Obama will support equality for all citizens.
Ferdiad
· 1 year ago
I think most of you are really missing the point here. This is a very interesting issue and one certainly ripe for discussion. We witnessed this week the historic election of America's first Black President. The importance of that milestone cannot be overstated. What John has pointed out, and righfully so, is that on that historic night another group of people suffered a huge set back in their struggle for equal rights. The irony is that the struggle of one group was completely rejected by the group that might great strides on that same night. Does this mean the Black community is to blame for the social ills inflicted on gays? Of course it doesn't. Does the fact that Obama won mean that the Black community owes the gay community anything? Of course it doesn't. However, the interesting issue is that simply put, there is widespreadh homophobia in many segments of the Black Community. How do we as Democrats deal with this issue? Interestingly, for years and years white people would find any excuse they could and rationalize every decision to claim that they were not responsible for the social ills inflicted on blacks. As to most people, they were correct, they were not responsible. However, certainly there have been times in our past and people in the white community that could have done more. The point here is that the black community in CA, while not responsible for Prop 8, or even indebted to anyone to oppose it, did overwhelmingly support it. From what I am reading on this chat site, many in the black community are acting extremely cavalier about the import of that fact - just as many white people had acted in the past about issues affecting the black community. I hope that we as thinkers, liberals, democrats and human beings can address this issue in constructive way. It IS a problem.
JayWilson
· 1 year ago
Whoa. So a proportionally larger segment of Black people voted for Proposition 8. Guess what: I bet that a proportionally larger group of poor people voted for it. And that a proportionally larger group of people who achieved lower levels of education voted for it. And that a proportionally larger group of evangelical people voted for it. Guess what! Each of those three general subgroups is proportionally larger among black people. Poverty leads to a lack of education which leads to heavier reliance on religion and superstition which leads to a heightened fear of "other." Now, let's get to the root of why and how this issue has come to the fore. As a a gay Black man, the fact that so many members of my gay communities feel the need to blame the California loss on my Black community as a whole smacks of the desperate post-election finger pointing coming out of the McCain campaign. Are these gay pundits and opinion makers thinking back on how poorly the national LGBT organizations have reached out to LGBT people of color? Are they thinking about how few LGBT people of color are in positions of leadership at major state and National LGBT organizations? Are they conscious of how many people like me have refused to give money to the HRC ever since Elizabeth Birch referred to Carmen Vazquez as a maggot 10 years ago? Are they reflecting on the notion that the monomaniacal focus from the National and State LGBT leadership on Marriage (as opposed to, say, the plight of homeless LGBT teens, the unique issues that face LGBT people who are not middle and upper class, the plight of imprisoned LGBT people, the failure to educate young people on safer sex, the flight of white gay money from HIV/AIDS organizations as the face of US epidemic became progressively browner) might have alienated many LGBT people of color from even thinking about partnering with them on the issue of Marriage?. Are they thinking, "Maybe we should have done some effective marketing to the Black community?” Or “Maybe we should have positioned gay marriage as a balm to the "Down Low" culture?” Or “Maybe we should have tried to reach out to the organists and choir directors?" No, they are blaming black people for the fact that they have ignored black people's even gay black people's lives and as a result, they have not earned the support of the Black community, at large. Obama's election as president is only relevant in one respect: If the National and California LGBT leadership had adopted a statewide version of Obama's and Howard Dean's 50 State Strategy an actually campaigned specifically to all or the communities that they lost (Blacks, Latinos, Evangelicals, Catholics, etc) then maybe they would have been able to pull off a victory. Instead, they not only lost; but they seem to be maintaining a willful ignorance of the true cause of their loss. And then, on top of it all, they seem to have decided to scapegoat "The Blacks." Genet would be so proud.
All Comments
The statement above is why this line of attack is doomed to produce nothing but failure and animosity IMO. To be frank, sure there is homophobia in the black community, but are we now asserting that all black people are homophobic or that black people are more homophobic than the general populations? As it's been pointed out REPEATEDLY, sure a high percentage of black people voted for Prop 8, but compared to the overall vote count it wasn't the deciding factor.
That being said, not only is the above statement erroneous in its assertion of the importance in the black vote, it automatically is asserting that the "defense" for black people voting for Prop 8 is because we somehow believe its OK to be bigoted becaue bigotry is/has been directed at us. The word is called prejudice, look it up. How dare you assume that a population of people will have one single reason for supporting or not supporting a piece of legislation, you are basically imposing your world view with little more than the brown stuff you pulled out of your butt. If anything, religion is probably a far bigger player in this drama than any perceived reverse-bigotry assertion.
No one is saying it isn't OK to question why so many black people apparently supported Prop 8, but do it with an open mind and be prepared to listen, not just accuse. I would assert that the larger issue is that the public education needed to frame Prop 8 the way it should have been (a direct assault on civil liberites), may have resulted in a different public perception.
Just a thought.
Ratio was about 70/30 in CA (and around the same in FL) so there is clearly a disturbing pattern here of homophobia in the black community that made the difference in CA
The funny thing is, people hem an haw so much about what amounts to the 3rd largest minority group in the country. In-an-off ourselves, black people can't get a dog catcher elected on the federal level, and I daresay in most states (especially California). So once again the Democrats commit the perfect lobster pot paradigm, as soon as one of us tries to climb out, the rest pull that one back into the boiling water.
However, feel free to dump on the single most reliable Democratic voting block, that sounds like a wonderful recipe for self-destruction in upcoming elections. Sure there is some homophobia in the black community, but I'd still take my chances there than in say, the GOP base, where most would love nothing more than to do a little gay-bashing.
I am not saying don't question the reasons, just don't assume you have a fucking clue.
now to get some perspective:
what percentage of those voting in favor of prop 8 were female?
Native American?
Chinese?
Japanese?
percentage Jewish?
percentage Irish?
percentage German?
All of these groups of humans have been treated as less than equal to upper class white males in this country, and not in any insignificant way. And all should know what bigotry is, and yet a large part of these groups likely voted to pass prop 8 as well. So what does that tell you?
And Barack is against gay marriage (which is one of the worst things about his character IMHO), but he isn't against a gay couple raising kids or against gays visiting each other in the hospital as family members. The amendment in Florida was more about taking away people's rights to just exist and to be gay. Close-minded, ignorant Floridians that voted for Amendment 2 were pretty much setting the table to make it easier for gays to even be seen in public and even make being gay a crime (that's the goal of those hateful morons who put forth Amendment 2 in Florida).
I find this whole argument of vilifying blacks for the passage of prop 8 troubling. It reminds me of what the Republicans were doing a few months ago. They were blaming the financial meltdown of global markets on ACORN, Fannie, and Freddie. Their argument was because ACORN forced Fannie and Freddie to lend to poor urban folks (i.e., blacks), banks began failing. There just ain't enough black people to screw the entire global market. Likewise, there weren't enough blacks to ban gay marriage on their own. Alot of non-blacks vote for prop 8, too.
I hope that this goes to the U.S. Supreme Court and the ban gets tossed out. If it does, then gay marriage bans across the country will get tossed, too.
2)This whole idea of legislating permissible sexuality is a joke. We should all email pictures to our state legislators of ourselves performing our favorite sex acts and ask them if it's ok. You know, get a fucking license from our government, a fellatio permit, a monkey spanking certificate. Hell, tax the Mormons, make them pay for multiple fucking permits. Arnold would have needed a lot of BJ permits back in the day.
3)Love between ANY two people is OK. Period.
I'm pissed too, but it's not black people's fault, and it's ridiculous and bigoted to claim that it is.
Anyway, it will be a lot easier to get this mess fixed with Obama in the White House rather than McCain.
As a side note, I am very hopeful that Barack ignores Nancy Pelosi to the best of his ability. She was too weak and "centrist" to bring up even the possibility of impeachment proceedings against Bush. So I doubt she'd be any willing participant in restoring the civil rights of individuals if she thought it was a move too far to the left. Pelosi's one of those ignorant Democrats that thinks liberal is a bad word. With her influence and control in the Senate, I think a lot of good things still won't be done in this country within the next few years.
-African-Americans were not allowed to marry whoever they wanted until 1968 in 16 states. I would've thought the memory of that would have sunk in.
-Mormons were actually chased ACROSS THE UNITED STATES for their beliefs about marriage, eventually ending up at the worst farmland in the entire nation (SLC area; yes, it's a real salty lake- not so good for people). Joseph Smith and his brother, Hyrum, were assassinated for standing up for their beliefs. I dunno; I thought the memory of their revered leaders being murdered would've made some kind of impression.
-Until 1978, the Mormon church did not allow African-Americans to be Elders, male members of the church who go on missions, hold leadership roles in the church hierarchy and the like.
Both groups look across a desert of past oppression. They look into mirrors. I guess they didn't see each other.
When did gay people start standing up as a large group and demanding their civil rights? If gays have to wait as long as blacks, it will be hundreds of years before you see gay marriage legal in all 50 states. I don't think you want that.
Do you want to be chased across the country like the Mormons and then still have to give up your beliefs about marriage to be recognized as an American citizen?
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Doesn't this happen every year in June, July, August with all the gay pride festivals? All be it, they have turned into side-shows for people to gawk and ridicule, never-the-less, they are still a demonstration by gay folks demanding their civil rights.
My experiences of bigotry, ignorance, and "can't mind their own dang business" from a church has even made it difficult for me to often be near my sister.
My sister's mega-corporation church "teaches" (aka urges them to think) that being gay is a choice people make in their life when they're "confused". The church also believes that people who "choose to be alone" have something wrong with them. I don't go to church (which I'll explain why in the next paragraph) and I am 30 years old, single, and not actively dating. That's pretty much doomed me to constantly swat away requests by my sister to hook me up with one of her church-going friends. See my sister's Baptist and I haven't been "saved". I don't ever plan to be. My sister has given up on convincing me herself, so she's trying to hook me up with one of her single (and most often weird) friends. I asked her why she's bothering me so much and she says its because her pastor told her to be a matchmaker so I'd get "saved" and go to Heaven. My opinion on the matter is that if I'm a good person, I don't need to go to church or get saved to convince me I'm going to Heaven. My sister and her church don't understand or agree with freethinking because "The Bible" tells them there's only one way to go to Heaven and that's being saved. Yeah, you can be a bad person and do awful things, but as long as you're saved, you've got the ticket to ride.
Crazy.
Anyway, to get to my point, ignorant and hateful beliefs about society's differences can pretty much always be tied to religion. Its not just for gays, but for anyone that the church deems "different" and "awkward". I am so happy that I wasn't brainwashed when I was younger to be ignorant and close-minded. I realized years back that church wasn't for me when I was dragged to church by my sister and her husband (who's the one that converted her) to go watch some play at her mega-church called "Heaven's Gates & Hell's Flames". It was one of the most hateful productions that I believe anyone could ever see. In other words, if you're tired of being a good human being, then you should probably start off seeing that play and believing everything it tells you.
Question: How can you stop hatred being taught in churches? I don't think you can stop hateful people from ever becoming pastors, priests, reverends, and ministers. Church is pretty much the only place where they can make people listen to their twisted morals and claim that its "okay" because the Bible says so.
We need to make people understand why the separation between church and state is important. People need to understand equal protection under the law and a right to privacy. When I present these arguments, my church/mosque going relatives understand. You may not be able to change people's minds about their religious beliefs, but hopefully we can all agree that everyone needs privacy, equal protection under the law and separation of church and state.
the fight for marriage equality needs to be framed as a civil rights issue. Equal protection and equal rights for all. hate should not be legislated.
Religiosity of this nation is its achilles heel.
As for the math: prop 8 lost by ~5%. Assuming 10% of voters African-American? If 50% of Aftrican-Americans were yes on 8, instead of 70%, then .2 x 10% of californians would be taken away from pro8 and presumably given to no on 8. That's 2% on each end, so now the gap would only be 1%. So, the impact was most of the % over 50% - that's a pretty big impact., unless my math is wrong.
http://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/59.htm
It is really appalling how little this protest, or even the passage of this proposition has mattered to the people who should be concerned. It should never have passed, and would never have passed, if anyone with smarts had paid a small fraction to this issue as was paid to a campaign which has essentially been in the bag for quite some time.
I'd comment on this more, but really everything that I'd want to say Pam Spaulding already put together in a post this morning (though, for the record, I would've been much more snarky): Ballot initiatives provide a wake up call to the LGBT community about race.
That being said- by comparison I don't know a single person who gets sick when they see black people.
Racism is also taught, and sexuality isn't. Yes I know that violence against gays can and is taught, but when you're conceived when your brain is developing--at some point a chemical decides if you're going to like boys or girls (or both ) and to what degree.
But another different gene tells your brain how much you don't like the other options in that spectrum.
Many of you will disagree and say that anyone who is against homosexuality is just being a bigot and I think that is true in some cases, but the idea needs to be considered and addressed that many straight people are against homosexuality because of their genetics.
Here's food for thought:
Who's more disgusted- a completely straight man watching two gay guys have sex or a really gay guy with a vagina in his face?
The truth is, there are plenty of examples in nature, including humans, where homosexual displays do not illicite physical respnses of sickness. I would daresay in the human species the repulsion to homosexuality is as much a result of conditioning as it is biology. Again, there's lots of anthropological evidence to suggest that homosexuality has been viewed with varying degrees of acceptance/disapproval throughout history, which suggests a conditioned response not a biological one.
If you're going to keep posting comments like this from posters why don't you at least try and offer up some kind of solution / suggestion for change or forward movement? Because it's now starting to look like you're trying to instigate some kind of anti-Obama / anti-black sentiment, and that's precisely the kind of thing you'd have learned at Ted Steven's knee.
I'm calling bullshit. STOP IT. Offer up a solution or quit this crap.
There was a good movie back in the early to mid 80s called "Turk 182" with Timothy Hutton and Robert Urich. I've come to realize that the use of the 1st Amendment used in that movie would pretty much be the only way you can get a politician to face the truth and to get others who agree with you more involved. That is of course IF the politician wouldn't answer you face to face (and when has that ever happened...in a public forum?).
Zimmerman flew and Tyler knew! Turk 182 :o)
Almost universally, people have been saying that the problem with prop 8 passing was organizational difficulty and relative complacency of 'no' folks until they got outspent in the last moments of the campaign by various 'yes' folks. Exit polls show something disturbing, but you have to wonder whether the black people in question -- especially knowing that they would turn out in high numbers for this election -- were targeted by the folks on our side.
As a gay black man, I am acutely aware that there is homophobia in the black community, but I am also aware of a reluctance of the mainstream gay community to sensitively target people of color. Something tells me that the black voters were untouched during the course of the entire campaign, as I seriously doubt that the Mormons were underfoot canvassing in the black communities of California.
The reason, Bryan, and others, you voted for Barack Obama is a) because he was the right candidate to vote for, and b) because he went after your vote by appealing to something that meant something to you -- keeping in mind that he stated his opposition to this measure. Not because you felt obligated to do the non-racist thing. The question becomes, did we do the same for Proposition 8? Did the mainstream gay community think that black voters were important enough to "go after"? When people start using words like "we" and "they" to refer to gay or black people, you begin to wonder if those people see all of us as being a part of the same larger community. I don't know the pre-spending numbers on demographics, but we might have ourselves to blame on this one.
The last few weeks as the election loomed I was tempted, out of sheer frustration to go out and pull the "Yes on 8" yard signs from the locals in my neighborhood who displayed them. I decided not to, because I felt that would do other people like me a disservice, those signs should have been painted as scarlet letters of hate and bigotry. The displayer should have been treated with the same vitriol and disdain that the media reserves for a celebrity, politician or sports figure that lets loose a racial stereotype while mic'd up and is caught.
And for what? Some group hunch on the Most Important Morals while we navigate this very short life we've been given? Imposed by MORMANS for dog's sake!! Give me a break.
I take this as one of the main items on the clipboard list for 2009. There's plenty of energy for another righteous push towards justice, equality and humanity.
So, it's so not over. Just keep getting better,faster,stronger. Like the great lyrics of the Daft the Vote video,
As I learned in typing class back in 1968....Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country. 2008 edition - Now is the time for all good people to come to the aid of the country.
1.6 million ballots are uncounted in California
In L.A. County, an estimated 566,000 votes have yet to be tallied. In Orange County, about 239,000 await counting. All must be counted by Dec. 2.
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/...
And then there are the Mormons.....
Reports that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a big supporter of Proposition 8 should sadden all Mormons. Based on the unique history of Mormons, there is no religious group in our country that should be more tolerant of "nontraditional" forms of marriage than those of us whose ancestors were polygamist Mormons, who were persecuted because of theirtheir "nontraditional" marriages.
Have today's Latter-day Saints forgotten that in the 19th century, our ancestors were violently and relentlessly attacked for their "peculiar institution"? Have they forgotten that they pleaded for understanding and tried in vain to prove that they were good parents? Have they forgotten that Utah territory gave our great-great-grandmothers the right to vote in part to prove that they were not downtrodden, and that these ancestors prayed to the Lord for the protection of "celestial marriage" against the hatred directed at Mormons?
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/...
The Public Policy Institute of California released a survey October 23 showing that 59 percent of likely voters aged 18 to 34 oppose the measure, while 37 percent support it.
http://www.ebar.com/news/article.php?sec=news&a...
We're always getting the blame for shyt out of our control, and just because this nation elected a Black Man as POTUS last night, don't think for one minute that African-Americans get an automatic toehold in ANYTHING.
Way to stay classy, Bryan. Too much trouble to do some REAL analysis of why Prop. 8 failed, isn't it, like maybe, anything south of Fresno is full of xenophobes and fundie wingnuts - not to mention the millions of dollars that poured into California from Utah - and the activists got caught flat footed and unprepared because of natural assumption that Californians would do the Right Thing?
I watched Prop. 209 passed twelve years ago - when Californians thought they were voting for a Proposition to strengthen Civil Rights and Affirmative Action, when in fact, the proposition all but eliminated affirmative action in education and contracting.
Bryan, you're a dipshyt and not worth me ranting at your ignorant ass any longer. You're a damned troll and you are an anomaly; GAY AND INTOLERANT.
This discussion should not be about who's persecuted more or whose fault this was. It should be how is the Gay community (which includes all races) going to continue the fight for their marriage rights.
For the record, 70 percent of African-Americans, according to exits, did not vote for Schwareznegger. 63 percent of whites did. What does that say about white people?
I guess the republicans are starting early on the 2010 congressional campaigns.
A number of American websites, including the widely read TechCrunch and Create Digital Music blogs, featured adverts backing Proposition 8, which would change California’s constitution to define marriage as the union of a man and a woman.
The adverts appeared on the sites a day before the crucial vote - which Californians will take at the same time as the presidential ballot - and have caused uproar among site owners and readers alike.
http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/te...
Look, some of the most LGBTQ-friendly politicians are BLACK. The first two Democratic presidential candidates in 2004 to call for legalizing same-sex marriage were Carol Mosley Braun and Al Sharpton. Not John Kerry, Howard Dean, Dick Gebhardt (whose daughter is a lesbian), or the rest of them. Yes, Al Sharpton! Massachusetts' current governor, Deval Patrick, fought to maintain same-sex marriage in his state when opponents sought to overturn the courts' and the people's will. Numerous elected Black politicians have supported pro-gay legislation.
If you have issues with a particular Black person based on something that other Black people do, that's racism, Bryan. Did you not ever vote for White politicians and regret it when WHITE people went and voted "to enshrine bigotry into law and no one challenges that?" Really? Did you not vote for Clinton or Reagan or Bush I or Bush 2, etc. because white people who strongly supported them also supported anti-gay ballot and amendment measures across the US over the last 20 years? What about DOMA? Or Arnold Schwarzenegger or other WHITE politicians like him who talk out of both sides of their mouths about gay issues? Who'll be left for you to vote for? A Martian?
However wrongly angry you are at Black people--or anyone else who supported and enabled this awful legislation--you should not forget that similar bills have passed in states that are almost ALL white and that rich white people underwrote the damned amendment in the first place. No Black or Latino put this crap on California's ballot, just as I would imagine no Black or Latino person did so in Florida, Arizona, or Arkansas. Or Oklahoma, South Dakota, Virginia, or any of the other places where similar legislation has passed.
Furthermore, Bryan's ignorant comment ignores the fact that BLACK lesbian and gay people are affected by this law. Not all gay people are white, which may be a surprise to him. BLACK people ARE addressing homophobia in the black community--Black LGBTQ and SGL people and our straight Black allies. Before you spout off crap about what people ought to be doing, perhaps try to find out if it's happening or not.
I am quite pleased to see that the progressive side is just as quick as those religious conservative baddies to scapegoat the black community for every ill that befalls society. Banks failing? Blame the blacks. Candidates losing at the polls? Claim the blacks are committing voter fraud. Housing market failing? Accuse those coloreds of buying homes they knew they couldn't afford in the first place. Having trouble defeating that anti-gay legislation? Blame 10% of the population to hide your failing to mobilize them and the other 90% of the voters in the state to fight against it.
This isn't something that's been bandied about by anonymous commenters in a blog. Even the great Andrew Sullivan has been attacking the black community about Proposition 8. You guys have tried attacking the people who's support you need in past initiatives and it blew up in your faces. I suggest you learn to reach out to the black community in the future instead of falling back on the same, divisive tactics that have never done a thing to help your cause. Or, you can keep lashing out at the black community and continue to struggle. Its your choice.
The GOP pulls this same crap every 4 years. The came out with gay rights initiatives in 2004 during the presidential season. We need to stop fighting amongst ourselves and come up with a specific strategy to neutralize them on this issue.
Bottom line the gay community in CA was caught flat footed on this. They ignored the issue until it was too late.
The U.S. Supreme Court does not rule on what is constitutional under a state constitution.
This is another case that gives me hope (in addition to the Texas case you mention):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perez_v._Sharp
http://lmaw.org/freedom/docs/CA-Perez.pdf
However, as a prominent Christian and African American, not to mention leader of the Democratic Party, it is Obama who now leads the way for those who seek to block the acceptance of LGBT people in mainstream society. He has shown them how and where to draw the line that keeps us shut out, while betraying absolutely no animosity or prejudice against us personally. This is exactly the balance of benign neglect that homophobic Christian America has been searching for.
Much as Clinton caved on the issue of gays serving openly in the military, Obama undermined his flacid support of LGBT rights with his clear statement that "marriage is between a man and a woman". Obama's self-contradictory formal opposition to Proposition 8 didn't discourage the Yes on 8 campaign. They proudly pictured Obama along with McCain on their advertisements, the two candidates united in support of traditional marriage.
Of course, Obama's lack of conviction on same-sex marriage has been no worse than his running mate's, or for that matter, the Democratic Party's cowardice. But Obama has become the undisputed leader of his Party and an inspiration to all Americans who hope to see the nation make a change for the better. If Obama himself won't muster up the courage to oppose discrimination against LGBT folks, how can anyone expect any more support from Democrats as a whole? Is it not clear that it's an issue that Obama has declared "off the table"?
This is truly Obama's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" issue, and it is he who has the opportunity to break the stalemate. But until Obama does some genuine soul-searching on his commitment to social justice, nothing that he says is going to make a difference.
Then we'd have President McCain and VP Palin (I shudder at the thought) for the next four years.
In the current social climate, the Republican Party has the luxury of being able to say, "Screw the gays" and not only get their base excited, but also still carry middle-of-the-road voters because gay rights aren't important to a lot of Americans. (I'm gay; my own stepfather has voted for Bush twice and is beside himself because McCain lost.) To a lot of people, political gay-bashing is still acceptable behavior. Look how the Bushies won by tossing us under the bus!
The Democratic party is forced to do a balancing act between supporting the GLBT community and, well, getting elected. While it's infuriating to support someone and still have them say, "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman," Obama/Biden have stated that they are for equal civil marriage rights for gays. While calling those rights something different is insulting, it's much better than having someone in power who supports taking away rights altogether.
While we can't exactly say that many Democrats have been supportive of us, at least we have a party in power that we can attempt to work with. They've got a political high wire to balance on; we've got to work on educating people and changing the current social climate. It may just take a Supreme Court decision. Until then, we've got to play it like a chess game.
When did we start caring so much about marriage--a religious practice? Why would someone want to buy into a practice that condemns them? Civil unions and civil laws should be what is strived for., I was married by a justice of the peace almost 50 yrs ago and never missed a thing, including the divorce.
Anyone who believes that the white youth protests going on in SoCal are going to have any effect is nuts. Anything worth having is worth educating people about and there didn't seem to be any effort at that on Prop 8 among minorities--except for white gays talking among themselves.
Do you really think poor blacks and Hispanics funded Prop 8? Do you understand why blacks turned to to the religion promulgated by whites during the centuries they were enslaved and oppressed? Do you also understand that for many minorities, gay issues ARE white issues when they see only white reps of the gay community talking about these issues? Has anyone done a profile of the 18,000+ couples married recently? Poor people of all races are the least likely to marry, no matter what their sexual orientation.
It's very easy to fall into the race trap--I would advise against it, and go forward.
It is truly unfortunate that prop 8 passed , and I pray that the court challenge swiftly upholds civil rights in California. But I think it is incorrect to scapegoat a group whose own family structures and ability to marry have been gutted by the social policies of this country.
Where's the outreach, even in ads?
And don't forget the gender divide, or others, in the LGBT community, either.
I'm still wondering about the falling out between John and Pam and why she was abruptly cut from posting on this blog. John?
Any answers?
The neighborhood I live in has a slew of black churches. Most of them seem to be cults of personality - at least it seems that way from their signs (they all have pictures of the preacher on them)
Most of the black folks I know who don't attend these ridiculous churches have no problems with gays or lesbians. It's the ones who go sit in those pews for hours at a time (their services last forever - even longer than the Catholics) who get brainwashed.
I also don't understand the logic of the original claim. The claim is that minorities should always support other minorities, regardless of whether they agree? Just knee-jerk support? Regardless of how they feel as individuals?
It would make more sense to work to change the way they feel as individuals. And "openly point[ing] the finger and say[ing] it's not okay to be bigots just because you are black and have suffered yourself" is not the way to do so effectively. When does a hostile approach ever work as well or thoroughly as a more tempered one?
Now, am I defending my people on the homophobe stuff? No, but what I am defending them against is placing the blame squarely on them. That's like saying Black people were instrumental in getting Obama the election. Yes we were VERY important but ultimately we are ONLY 12-15% of the total population. It's a ludicrous charge.
I'm sorry it passed Bryan, but you should not be shooting at the leaves when the tree trunk is staring your in the face.
@ Happy_Housewife - They don't use Gays as scapegoats. I guarantee you there are more than a few Gays in the church choirs and on boards. In fact a lot of churches use the word to encourage us to rise up, lift ourselves up and take care of each other. By the way, services are usually and hour or 2, I don't know what kind of Black churches you've been to.
what about all the white MORMON money that was pumped in to help defeat this thing?
what about the homophobia driven by WHITE evangelical churches? Are white churches in the US all accepting of homosexuality now?
as ccnjr said
If Blacks are 10% of the vote and exit polls said they were 70% against....Then that's 7% of the against vote. Just, who are the other 93% who voted against it?
LIke it or not, blacks are now being blamed for enshrining bigotry in California's constitution. Are other groups partially responsible? Of course. But there is no doubt that blacks were the group that far and away gave the most support to Proposition "Hate". The majority of whites and Asians voted against the measure. Latinos were closely divided. But over 70% of blacks voted in favor of denying gay rights - primarily those with the least education. It's a fact. Even the so called "Christian" vote was not as strongly in favor of Prop 8 as the blacks. Had Obama not been on the Democratic ticket ..... Had only the usual number of blacks bothered to vote in this election, Proposition 8 would have been easily defeated instead of winning by a very slim majority. So I'm afraid you're stuck with the blame, or scapegoating, if you wish to call it that. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.
And now its "blacks turn" to take the heat for something? more faulty logic.
if you want to blame a possible 7 percent of Californias voting population on Prop 8 not winning, be my guest. Whatever it takes you to sleep at night and keep your little culture war going.
I also firmly believe that Proposition 8 will be defeated in the courts, and eventually gay marriage will be common in every state, just as once forbidden interracial marriage now is. I sincerely hope the black community can learn to rise above their prejudices and join in this important civil rights movement. Otherwise they will be left behind, just as the racial bigots of the old South now find themselves.
I see that you would rather engage in angry replies and personal attacks than deal with the actual issue. I'm not into that kind of thing. I won't be responding again. Feel free to post as you like.
On Tuesday, more educated blacks voted against Proposition 8, while less educated blacks (unfortunately the majority) voted overwhelmingly to strip gays of their right to marry. Many did so at the urging of their pastors.
But I believe the most important factor in the overwhelming support for the anti-gay Proposition among the black community was the issue of societal status. Whether we realize it or not, we all rank ourselves and others according to status in society. And those at the lower end are the first to jealously guard their status. When you get right down to people's basic motivations, no one wants to be at the bottom. And this election provided the perfect opportunity for African Americans to raise their social status as a group. Unfortunately at the same time it also gave them the opportunity to push gay people down a notch or two by officially declaring them unworthy of the status of matrimony. As one radio commentator said, "Gay is the new black." I think this psychological motivation played a huge part in the African American vote on Tuesday, and thus sadly tarnished Obama's victory. Gay people flooded the streets in San Francisco to celebrate the election of Obama, but the celebration quickly ended with the news that our right to marry had just been revoked. The Christian Coalition is greatly encouraged by Tuesday's vote in California, and has said that they will now attempt to ensure that every State constitution is amended to deny gays the right to marry. Our society has a lot of healing to do, and that includes treating gay people with the respect and dignity they deserve. Perhaps President Obama will support equality for all citizens.