AMERICAblog: Pope lifts excommunication for Holocaust denier
ThingsComeUndone
· 10 months ago
Uh Just what does the Pope hope to gain from this? Is using the office of the Pope to legitimize the Holocaust Denial movement a priority for this Pope? Kiss Jews and Liberal and Moderate Catholics good bye. As if after a pedophilia scandal the Church does not have enough problems. No really Chris what is the reasoning behind this? Attracting a few racists will not counter the number of Catholics this will lose the church.
ThingsComeUndone
· 10 months ago
"For Pope Benedict, the lifting of the excommunication heals a wound that had festered for 20 years and readmits a thriving community that has 150,000 followers in more than 20 countries. But what should have been a joyous occasion, ending what the Vatican called "the scandal of division", will be overshadowed by the Williamson interview."
So is Mel Gibson coming back to the Roman Catholic Church?
Göran Koch-Swahne
· 10 months ago
This is horrible, simply horrible!
S_in_Tokyo
· 10 months ago
Let them play their silly games. It means very little to anyone with any sense.
Indigo
· 10 months ago
" and has accused the Vatican of being under the power of Satan. " At least he got that one right!
vkobaya
· 10 months ago
Actually, it is a confession that Ratman is a lieutenant of Satan.
Indigo
· 10 months ago
Those theological intricacies are beyond me. Thanks for clarifying that!
Older_Wiser
· 10 months ago
I'm sure Williamson has a large circle of Nazi friends in Argentina he conducts funerals for, eh? Yes, he must continue the revision of history for them.
I'm just surprised how many people still cling to the superstition of religion, having left the catholic church myself at age 15.
Chris, you left out that this dress wearing peacock doesn't believe women should wear pants and shorts--and he believes men should be more "manly" (what is that code for?).
Panasit Ch
· 10 months ago
"I think that 200,000 to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps but none of them by gas chambers"
200,000 to 300,000 perished in Nazi prison camp IS the holocaust. Gas chamber or not makes no different.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
That number is even lower than the number of gays murdered by the Nazis. Of course the Church has a history of killing both Jews and gays in a series of Inquisitions that lasted 550 years, so I suppose they would rather underestimate.
teammarty
· 10 months ago
...or the number of Atheists (me), Rom (gypsies, or Ziegeuner (sp?), that part of the family I never got to meet, or just plain old dissenters (like my mom's uncle, who I never got to meet either).
But even if the holocaust was ONLY 200,000 Jews, it's still beyond outrageous.
smallhandff
· 10 months ago
This should be a big deal cuz doesn't it run counter to the doctrine of papal infallability?
Apphouse50
· 10 months ago
Technically, the nonsensical fantasy of papal infallibility does not say the pope can't be wrong ever, but that he is the direct mouthpiece of the Lord when speaking on matters of faith and morals.
He can be wrong a lot. And frequently is. You just won't get him to admit it when it comes to aforesaid matters.
WLWEsq
· 10 months ago
Actually, if I recall my theology correctly, the doctrine of papal infallibility applies only when the pope declares that a particular teaching is infallible. It's only happened once or twice in history--I think it had to do with the teaching that the Virgin Mary was born without original sin and something else that was similar. Hardly major theological teachings on every-day matters.
RainbowPhoenix
· 10 months ago
Six times in history according to my confirmation teacher.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
You're right. The first doctrine viewed by the Church to invoke Papal infallibility was the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary, declared by Pius IX in 1854. The doctrine of Papal infallibility itself wasn't defined until 1870 at the First Vatican Council. It was subsequently applied to the doctrine of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary into Heaven by Pius XII speaking "ex cathedra" or from the chair - the throne of Peter - in 1950. There are just 2 such "infallible" doctrines. Of course there are a number of additional ways other than Papal infallibility that the Church deludes itself into thinking it is "preserved from error".
Among the measures by which the Church determines that it is preserved from error is Scripture, the acceptance of any given dogma by a majority of bishops, and the common belief of "the faithful". By those measures the Church teaching, for example, that the Earth was the center of the universe, was divinely inspired truth. That is why Copernicus and Galileo got into so much trouble with the Inquisition. Despite belatedly admitting those errors in 1992, nearly 400 years after putting Copernicus' books on the Index of forbidden books and forcing Galileo to recant on his knees and placing him under house arrest until his death, the Church still sticks with its views on its own preservation from error. The theory is that the Holy Spirit works through the clergy and the faithful to guide and protect the Church. It's the same theory that supposedly guides the Cardinals to select the next Pope, when in fact the process is highly political and often cutthroat. Not to mention that the Church has on occasion had as many as three Popes at the same time.
The most basic mistake the Church makes is by counter-scientifically starting with the conclusion that any given piece of dogma is true, and working backward to "prove" it. When that is shot full of holes, they retreat into calling it part of "they mystery of faith"; faith being "a gift".
ndtovent
· 10 months ago
Just goes to show how desperate the RC is for priests... Their recruitment for priests entering the seminary is down worldwide, and has been for many years. Many parishes in the U.S. have no assigned priests anymore - One priest might handle 4 or 5 parishes in one geographic area -- traveling to different ones -- in some of them, the nuns have to perform all duties except say mass and give communion. With their archaic polices still in place, including the no marriage requirement, it shouldn't be a big surprise that the pope would lift the excommunication decree for crazies.
MNPundit
· 10 months ago
And of course, the married priests policy is even older than the celibate priest policy.
RainbowPhoenix
· 10 months ago
Rather ironic for an institution that screams about the evils of sex outside of marriage.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
The Church in the US now imports more priests from abroad than it ordains in the US. In Europe and the US the Church is in steady decline. Third World countries are the future of the Church. With that it will become ever-more conservative and more out of touch with "Western" cultures.
tiny elvis
· 10 months ago
Most people are aware that Kennedy was assassinated by conspiracy and the nine one one was a conspiracy any way you look at it. Protestants would agree about the devil in the Vatican. Who are you appealing to?
shane
· 10 months ago
I'm guessing people who have a functioning cerebral cortex and aren't afraid to use it.
old grandad
· 10 months ago
You can take Benedict out of the Hitler Youth but you can't take the Hitler Youth out of Benedict.
shell
· 10 months ago
It is laughable that one of these freaks says he believes that SOME Jews "perished" in concentration camps (what? they just died peacefully of old age?) but goes ape shit, screaming that there were no gas chambers. Although it is obvious there WERE gas chambers, what if there weren't? A death is a death. He says they were tortured to death? Starved? Shot? Drowned? Just not the dreaded gas chamber.
Freak.
Griffon
· 10 months ago
The public at large is conditioned to 'commend their mortal souls' to an institution with far less information, assurance, substantiation and authenticity than they would personally require to, say, purchase a major appliance.
An institution inhabited by a coterie of insular, rhetoric-driven insurance salesmen whose sole aim is to perpetuate the institution, regardless of the efficacy of its stated purpose or the depths of depravity. There exists no trigger for transparency or critical appraisal.
"'Tis too much proved--that with devotion's visage And pious action we do sugar o'er The devil himself."
Karen
· 10 months ago
I like how these far-right and Holocaust denier-types are referred to as "traditionalists" by the church. At least they are owning up to their tradition.
nothingasitseems
· 10 months ago
Just another of the many reasons why I'm athiest. Religion is a corruption that weakens minds.
Feel free to share delight with this announcement. I certainly have. That Benedict, a fashion maven AND support holocaust deniers of the vilest sort. What a sport.
Frankly, I really miss Pope John Paul. I have what I call his 'Greatest Hits' album, Abba Pater, doing pieces from the liturgy, often with modern styled musical accompaniment. It is one of my favorite CDs. Abba Pater - Pater Noster
One has to wonder if Bendedict's album will run to tunes like this: Horst Wessel Lied
And I am pretty much a confirmed atheist. Get raised as a Southern Baptist, and that can happen easily.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
It has happened to a lot of us former devout Catholics as well.
Fireblazes(CheetohsandCatfood)
· 10 months ago
But we Americans are evil for electing Obama? How dare us elect an intelligent, modern thoughtful and far-sighted person! It is like the Pope and his La Cosa Nostra are sociopaths only able to view the world from their own twisted perspective. I do not understand their obsession with legal abortion and free willed gays. Seems to be a dead end strategy to invest your future in 2 such narrow issues.
hrh
· 10 months ago
Nobody said denial was just a river in Egypt.
WLWEsq
· 10 months ago
I'm a life-long practicing Catholic. I have to say, though, that Pope Benedict is making me an expert at rolling my eyes in disbelief.
All I can say is that if you look back through the ages, the popes have always had problems with honesty and sanity (not in the clinical sense). Even among the apostles, Thomas doubted Jesus and Peter denied him.
In my mind, the true church is not the Vatican, the cardinals, or even the bishops. The true church is found in the hearts of everyday parishioners who recall that Jesus told us to love one another and who go out to feed the hungry, care for the sick, clothe the naked, visit those in prison, and so on. We all go on doing this while we hope that some day the church hierarchy will wake up. In the meantime, we just have to shake our heads when something like this happens.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
Beautifully written. But unfortunately that "some day" will not be soon, since Ratzinger and his predecessor have appointed the most hard-line conservative bishops and cardinals, and have systematically undone the reforms of Vatican II. The old guard is more entrenched than ever. And increasingly the Church will be dominated by arch-conservatives from third-world countries.
vkobaya
· 10 months ago
I wouldn't put it past Ratman if he has secretly canonized Hitler. He's hoping future generations of Catholics will venerate St. Hitler, patron saint of anti-Semitism. Gak!
Please don't blame all Catholics or even all popes. John XXIII was a living saint who eccumenically included all, even Muslims and Buddhists in the family of man. That is why Ratman hates him so much as to derail the canonization process for John XIII.
MNPundit
· 10 months ago
Well just another action in Benedict's quest to make the Catholic church about irrelevant to modern life as can be. Glad I'm a protestant. At least our zealots (and let's be honest, our zealots are more dangerous) don't claim to represent all protestantism.
catdance
· 10 months ago
I think the Catholic Church has finally gone too far -- a (former) Nazi pope welcoming a Holocaust-denying "bishop" with a tin foil mitre back into the bosom of the Church. Jesus wept.
Stick a fork in them, they're done.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
The four bishops whom Ratzinger recommunicated were followers of Archbishop Lefebvre who was excommunicated for rejecting the reforms of Vatican II. By welcoming Lefebvre's schematics back into the fold Ratzinger continues his dismantling of those reforms, and moves the Church back several more centuries into the past.
As for young Ratzinger and the Germans in the 1930's and 1940's, they knew what was happening to the Jews.
Look at these photos of young Ratzinger as a member of the Hitlerjungen. The photos don't say that he chose to be a Hitler Youth, or that he wanted to be a Hitler Youth. But they say that he was old enough to know what was happening to the Jews.
Not all Germans knew exactly what was going on in the concentration camps, but they were well aware of the roundups and all that led up to the roundups, and the fact that the Jews were not coming back. And by the end of the war, they all learned the horrific details.
And finally, look closely at Ratzinger's eyes as he emerged onto the balcony above St. Peter's Square immediately after his election as Pope. What do you see in that face? Is it love and kindness? Is it the triumph of "God's Rottweiler", the much feared Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly known as the Holy Inquisition that murdered and tortured hundreds of thousands in the various inquisitions between 1184 and 1834 - the man with the reputation of ruthlessly going after and destroying theologians with whom he disagreed - as he finally takes control of the Church? Or is it pure evil?
Well, Ratzi was head of the Inquisition. Considering the historical SOP of that institution, he considers killing Catholics who don't teabag him vigorously enough as a moral imperative. By comparison, killing Jews is one of the greatest possible acts one can perform as a Catholic. To kill them and then claim it never happened (thus denying the existence of the victims) is a mark of a true saint of the Church.
And a sane reproductive policy is the height of eveil - unless there is an overabundance of children in the world, how can the priests have any choice in sexual partners? Do you expect them to make do with just a handful of kids per parish? Think of the bishops! After all Jesus said: "Make the children suffer as I cum all over them."
TAprof
· 10 months ago
This should surprise no one. The man is a fascist. The leadership of this pedophile cult is basically nothing more than a neo-Nazi tax haven. It's at times like this that I wish Stalin's tanks had reached Rome.
Charles
· 10 months ago
The last bit about the Vatican being under the power of Satan, might not be far wrong. Seems like he'd feel right at home.
THere was lots of noise about pro-choice politicians being unworthy of Catholocism.
This looks like the pope bought himself his own Roe v. Wade litmus.
Is it possible to be a Catholic and a holocaust denier?
paulbe
· 10 months ago
Holocaust denial (or questioning as it often is) is hardly worth restarting an Inquisition. It's something that can be refuted with argument and evidence, if the questioner is so worrying. Attempts to codify the Holocaust as some kind of unarguable religious observance does not do much to win debates. It's a historical event that should be provable from available evidence, not a narrative that needs legal protection in order to stand.
Indigo
· 10 months ago
Yeah well the (bad) bishop wasn't excommunicated for being a Holocaust-denier, he was excommunicated for receiving his bishop-ness (whatever!) from an excommunicated schismatic protester. The offending ESP is dead now and the Holy Rat has noticed that the only Catholics left who know any Latin or anything about how to perform the ancient ritual properly are excommunicated. Well, you can't restore 14th century piety without Latin so the excommunications had to be revoked. As for Holocaust-denial, that's not a Vatican issue. They really honestly truly just don't care.
All Comments
Kiss Jews and Liberal and Moderate Catholics good bye. As if after a pedophilia scandal the Church does not have enough problems.
No really Chris what is the reasoning behind this? Attracting a few racists will not counter the number of Catholics this will lose the church.
So is Mel Gibson coming back to the Roman Catholic Church?
At least he got that one right!
I'm just surprised how many people still cling to the superstition of religion, having left the catholic church myself at age 15.
Chris, you left out that this dress wearing peacock doesn't believe women should wear pants and shorts--and he believes men should be more "manly" (what is that code for?).
200,000 to 300,000 perished in Nazi prison camp IS the holocaust. Gas chamber or not makes no different.
But even if the holocaust was ONLY 200,000 Jews, it's still beyond outrageous.
He can be wrong a lot. And frequently is. You just won't get him to admit it when it comes to aforesaid matters.
Among the measures by which the Church determines that it is preserved from error is Scripture, the acceptance of any given dogma by a majority of bishops, and the common belief of "the faithful". By those measures the Church teaching, for example, that the Earth was the center of the universe, was divinely inspired truth. That is why Copernicus and Galileo got into so much trouble with the Inquisition. Despite belatedly admitting those errors in 1992, nearly 400 years after putting Copernicus' books on the Index of forbidden books and forcing Galileo to recant on his knees and placing him under house arrest until his death, the Church still sticks with its views on its own preservation from error. The theory is that the Holy Spirit works through the clergy and the faithful to guide and protect the Church. It's the same theory that supposedly guides the Cardinals to select the next Pope, when in fact the process is highly political and often cutthroat. Not to mention that the Church has on occasion had as many as three Popes at the same time.
The most basic mistake the Church makes is by counter-scientifically starting with the conclusion that any given piece of dogma is true, and working backward to "prove" it. When that is shot full of holes, they retreat into calling it part of "they mystery of faith"; faith being "a gift".
Freak.
An institution inhabited by a coterie of insular, rhetoric-driven insurance salesmen whose sole aim is to perpetuate the institution, regardless of the efficacy of its stated purpose or the depths of depravity. There exists no trigger for transparency or critical appraisal.
"'Tis too much proved--that with devotion's visage
And pious action we do sugar o'er
The devil himself."
Feel free to share delight with this announcement. I certainly have. That Benedict, a fashion maven AND support holocaust deniers of the vilest sort. What a sport.
Frankly, I really miss Pope John Paul. I have what I call his 'Greatest Hits' album, Abba Pater, doing pieces from the liturgy, often with modern styled musical accompaniment. It is one of my favorite CDs. Abba Pater - Pater Noster
One has to wonder if Bendedict's album will run to tunes like this: Horst Wessel Lied
And I am pretty much a confirmed atheist. Get raised as a Southern Baptist, and that can happen easily.
All I can say is that if you look back through the ages, the popes have always had problems with honesty and sanity (not in the clinical sense). Even among the apostles, Thomas doubted Jesus and Peter denied him.
In my mind, the true church is not the Vatican, the cardinals, or even the bishops. The true church is found in the hearts of everyday parishioners who recall that Jesus told us to love one another and who go out to feed the hungry, care for the sick, clothe the naked, visit those in prison, and so on. We all go on doing this while we hope that some day the church hierarchy will wake up. In the meantime, we just have to shake our heads when something like this happens.
Please don't blame all Catholics or even all popes. John XXIII was a living saint who eccumenically included all, even Muslims and Buddhists in the family of man. That is why Ratman hates him so much as to derail the canonization process for John XIII.
Stick a fork in them, they're done.
As for young Ratzinger and the Germans in the 1930's and 1940's, they knew what was happening to the Jews.
Look at these photos of young Ratzinger as a member of the Hitlerjungen. The photos don't say that he chose to be a Hitler Youth, or that he wanted to be a Hitler Youth. But they say that he was old enough to know what was happening to the Jews.
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/10/naziratzing...
Not all Germans knew exactly what was going on in the concentration camps, but they were well aware of the roundups and all that led up to the roundups, and the fact that the Jews were not coming back. And by the end of the war, they all learned the horrific details.
http://www.voltairenet.org/IMG/jpg/webRATZINGER...
And finally, look closely at Ratzinger's eyes as he emerged onto the balcony above St. Peter's Square immediately after his election as Pope. What do you see in that face? Is it love and kindness? Is it the triumph of "God's Rottweiler", the much feared Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, formerly known as the Holy Inquisition that murdered and tortured hundreds of thousands in the various inquisitions between 1184 and 1834 - the man with the reputation of ruthlessly going after and destroying theologians with whom he disagreed - as he finally takes control of the Church? Or is it pure evil?
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_b8cVMt5KsBc/SNgSo3I0Y...
And a sane reproductive policy is the height of eveil - unless there is an overabundance of children in the world, how can the priests have any choice in sexual partners? Do you expect them to make do with just a handful of kids per parish? Think of the bishops! After all Jesus said: "Make the children suffer as I cum all over them."
www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/
This looks like the pope bought himself his own Roe v. Wade litmus.
Is it possible to be a Catholic and a holocaust denier?