AMERICAblog: Prop 8 has become a PR disaster for Mormons
SCLiberal
· 1 year ago
"Prop 8 has become a PR disaster for Mormons "
Hopefully, they ain't seen nothin' yet.
SCLiberal
· 1 year ago
"...has had a disproportionate number of potential converts cancel appointments."
YES!!!!
Soaplady57
· 1 year ago
If Mormons think they've "lost a few friends now" just wait!! I'm sure that this is only the beginning.
Thanks for a great post as usual, John!
Charles2
· 1 year ago
How about the rest of the religious H8-ers? Catholics, Baptists, down the line...
They are all just as guilty.
John Aravosis
· 1 year ago
Yes they are, but the Mormons are now their bankers - bankers who single-handedly turned the imminent defeat of Prop 8 into a resounding victory. Take away their banker, take away their future victories.
DavidinPS
· 1 year ago
Yes, but we target whom we choose to target. The Mormons are the easiest, most strategic target. We should offer no apologies, or explanations for our choices. Plus, this was a Mormon banked, Mormon driven project.
Cpeterka
· 1 year ago
Right On !!! Dear Lord, ..Save us from the preachers ! Amen.
Dave of the Jungle
· 1 year ago
The day is coming when I will less frequently mention the MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE.
I sent two letters yesterday. I am a former Mormon, but had never officially withdrawn my name from the church records, so I did this formally. But, I also sent the following letter to the 'Prophet' of the Mormon church, whose own nephew died of AIDS fifteen years ago:
December 1, 2008
Thomas S. Monson President and Prophet The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints 50 E. North Temple Drive Salt Lake City, UT 84150
Dear President Monson:
As an Elder, and a father of two young sons, the youngest of whom is currently serving his mission in Stockholm, Sweden, I am writing to call you and the church to repentance. This may come as a surprise and a shock to be called to repent.
But, the church has sinned against those who are gay, lesbian or transgendered for too long. This sin against your gay and lesbian children has led to the destruction of faith; the destruction of families; to countless suicides. This has led to the loss of your mission to love your neighbor as yourself.
I am sending this on World AIDS day as well. My cousin died from AIDS in 1984 in Provo, Utah. She got AIDS from a blood transfusion during the delivery of her fifth child. She was the first person to die of AIDS in Utah. And, in honor of all of those we have lost along the way and the journey her death led me to in medicine to serving those most despised among us I send this letter on this important day.
I also with the power of my Melchizedek priesthood still intact at this point, I ceremoniously shake the dust off of my feet. I call upon the heavens to rain down the power of Heaven to bring you and your people to their knees in sincere repentance for the pain you have caused and continue to cause against the outcast and unwanted and their families dealing with this reality.
I have read the scriptures all of my life. I love my Savior. I try every day to live His example. Not once would he have entered a political fight against an unwanted minority and ignored what was the real trouble He was called to fight: ignorance, hatred, and poverty.
The traditional family is hurting. But it is not because there happen to be Lesbian and Gay’s in the world. No, the family is hurting because of divorce, abuse, addiction, poverty, gambling, etc. These are the true enemies of the family today. Yet, you have gambled the church’s growth and mission on institutionalizing discrimination against your gay and lesbian children and those like them in your community and in this world.
To sin is to deny your Lord. His mission was to call the world to repent. It was not to cause pain to the lowly and already hurting.
Shame on you, and shame on my people, the Mormons. And, I say this out of a complicated love that I feel for you and the Church.
During my years at BYU and my medical training at the University of Utah I would count the number of unexplained deaths in the Salt Lake newspapers of young men and women who died. Weekly the numbers piled higher and higher. The suicide rates of these many youth became one of the pains of my life and the ongoing silence of the church—now twenty years and counting is nearly as bad.
The reality of growing up gay in a faith that denies and ignores this pain has led me to the realization that my people do not love Christ, nor do they serve him. They serve a bureaucracy and organization. But, they have lost the work of the Lord somewhere along the way.
I am sorry for the pain that my actions today will cause my sons and my mother. But, I choose to love them even though they have repeatedly chosen their church over our relationship. I will continue to work for justice and love in the world to heal pain rather than cause it.
I beg you to get on your knees and speak your forgiveness to your lesbian, gay and transgendered children and their families.
Sincerely,
Robert Killian, MD/MPH Seattle, WA
Dave of the Jungle
· 1 year ago
As always, the spiritual values that all religions purport to represent transcend all doctrines and practices and shine forth through the hearts of worthy individuals such as yourself.
moreleesafer
· 1 year ago
Good for you Dr. Killian.
Laura_in_CC
· 1 year ago
Beautiful! Thanks.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
"..I will continue to work for justice and love in the world to heal pain rather than cause it."
Thank you Dr. Killan for your letter. It was very moving. You reminded me of something Mother Teresa once said, and I paraphrase, "...do not worry about what others may think, it is always between you and your creator, never between you and other people."
Best of luck to you, and may God bless your efforts.
moreleesafer
· 1 year ago
The next time the missionaries stop by my door, I'm not going to be as nice as I have been in the past. I will ask them their opinion on Prop 8 and their "church's" support of it.
I suppose I could ask them if they have ever had any impure thoughts for each other and watch as they blush.
"Elder Jason, are you trying to tell me that during all that time you have ridden your bicycle you never thought to yourself, "Gee, Elder Brett sure has a cute butt?".
I bet they take me off their rotation.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
Actually, I will give them 20 seconds to leave after I tell them that they are trespassing and to get the hell off my property, and if they don't comply , they will get tazed and then I will perform a citizen's arrest.
RainbowPhoenix
· 1 year ago
It's time to declare the mormons the new Anita Bryant.
Boycottutah
· 1 year ago
And we boycotted Florida Orangejuice just like we will boycott Utah and all of the Mormon brands!
Chuckypita
· 1 year ago
"(rules which include accepting Jesus as a polygamist who married his mother and was the brother of Satan, rules which include being forced to convert to Mormonism against your will)" - Talk about LIES, LIES and MORE LIES.
Before you go and slander, I think it would be wise to get your "FACTS STRAIGHT"
THE FACTS:
1. Mormons make up only 2% of the population of California. There are approximately 750,000 LDS out of a total population of approximately 36 million.
2. If one estimates that 250,000 LDS are registered voters (the rest being children), then out of a total of 5,661,583 yes votes, LDS voters made up 4.4% of the Yes vote and 2.3% of the total Proposition 8 vote (11,050,301).
3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) donated no money to the Yes on 8 campaign (except for a nominal, and legal, in-kind donation of $2,078.97, to cover the travel expenses of leaders coming from Utah for a meeting). Individual members of the Church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts and, exercising their constitutional right to free speech, donated whatever they felt like donating.
4. The No on 8 campaign raised more money than the Yes on 8 campaign. Unofficial estimates put No on 8 at $38 million and Yes on 8 at $36 million, making it the most expensive non-presidential election in the country.
5. Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. The No on 8 supporters have insisted that the Yes on 8 messaging is based on lies. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported.
6. The majority of our friends and neighbors voted Yes on 8. Los Angeles County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Ventura County voted in favor of Proposition 8. San Diego County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Orange County voted in favor of Proposition 8. San Luis Obispo County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Sacramento County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Fresno County voted in favor of Proposition 8. And the list goes on and on: Merced, San Bernardino, Riverside, Mariposa, Tulare, Imperial, etc.
7. African Americans overwhelmingly supported Yes on 8. Exit polls show that 70% of Black voters chose Yes on 8. This was interesting because the majority of these voters voted for President-elect Obama. No on 8 supporters had assumed that Obama voters would vote No on 8.
8. The majority of Latino voters voted Yes on 8. Exit polls show that the majority of Latinos supported Yes on 8 and cited religious beliefs (assumed to be primarily Catholic).
9. The Yes on 8 coalition was a broad spectrum of religious organizations. Catholics, Evangelicals, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, Muslims - all supported Yes on 8. It is estimated that there are 10 million Catholics and 10 million Protestants in California. Mormons were a tiny fraction of the population represented by Yes on 8 coalition members.
10. Though the Church urged its members to "do all [they] can to support the proposed constitutional amendment," not all Mormons voted in favor of Proposition 8. Our faith accords that each person be allowed to choose for him or her self. Church leaders have asked members to treat other members with "civility, respect and love," despite their differing views.
11. The Church did not violate the principal of separation of church and state. This principle is derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, although it has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court in recent years. The LDS Church is under no obligation to refrain from participating in the political process, to the extent permitted by law. U.S. election law is very clear that Churches may not endorse candidates, but may support issues. The Church has always been very careful on this matter and occasionally (not often) chooses to support causes that it feels to be of a moral nature.
12. Supporters of Proposition 8 did exactly what the Constitution provides for all citizens: they exercised their First Amendment rights to speak out on an issue that concerned them, make contributions to a cause that they support, and then vote in the regular electoral process. For the most part, this seems to have been done in an open, fair, and civil way. Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars, and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do - we spoke up, we campaigned, and we voted.
Indigo
· 1 year ago
How much do they pay you per word?
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
Lies, lies, lies!!!
Dave of the Jungle
· 1 year ago
Could I, by chance, interest you in explaining the MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE?
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
They're still in denial over that.
Forty2
· 1 year ago
Well, one thing in all that drivel is true: the anti-8 disorganization and flailing around with no coherent message.
Boycottutah
· 1 year ago
You posted the exact same thing on another thread here. Methinks Mr. Mormon man is foaming at the mouth! We are shining a bright light under the rock that is the Mormon Church and so many creepy crawly nasty things are coming out like: 1) The white talking salamander 2) Smith and Young's child brides. 3) The doctrine that all Mormon men will be gods of their own planets. 4) The doctrine that people of African descent bear the "Mark of Cain" 5) Magic underware. 6) The fact that the Mormon Church is a large corporate cult commanding empires such as Marriott and American Express. 7) The fact that the Marriott Corp makes a fortune on the porn industry by providing hardcore materials in their establishments. And the list goes on and on and on!
DavidinPS
· 1 year ago
Can I remind you of the doctrine of LYING FOR THE LORD?
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
Do Mormons make up only 2% of the population of California? Thank you for sharing that factoid with us. I had no idea. They make up about 65% of the people who knock uninvited on my door with a book of scriptures in their hands.
An_American_Karol
· 1 year ago
Good one! lol
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
Lol. And if you slam the door in their face they always get back at you by shouting, "God bless you!" Very passive aggressive.
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
The Jehovah's Witnesses are so much easier to deal with. You just interrupt them by saying, "Oh, is this about God? Sorry. We already have one." [slam door]
An_American_Karol
· 1 year ago
The facts speak clearly; your church supported prop 8. To say you were not the only ones and some did more is NOT an excuse. You are guilty of bigotry.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
Actually, Mormons were told to leave the church when they openly supported same-sex marriage. Regardless of your screed, you are right in that you exercised your constitutional rights which included lying about proposition 8. It is our turn. We are boycotting Mormon-owned businesses; we are boycotting businesses that have people in upper-level management who donated to the Yes on 8 campaign; we are boycotting Utah; and we are making public the creepier aspects of your sick religion. All of these are protected speech under the constitution. Oh, and you haven't seen anything yet. Look for Mormons having to hide their faith due to shame. Have you ever wondered why there are 40,000 polygamists living in Utah? The Mormon Church says that they are against it and yet the Mormon-controlled government of Utah does nothing to enforce the law. Could it be that Mormons condone polygamy and the marrying of one's nieces? If it walks like a duck. . .
Chrissy
· 1 year ago
1. The issue isn't the number of Mormons in California, but the fact that only 2% of the population funded from some estimates up to 70%.
2. Again not the issue
3. The Mormon church is being investigated for fraud by not reporting all their in-kind donations. Also, you seem to want to lessen the impact of in-kind donations as if some how they were less than cash donation. A donation is a donation.
4. What is your point here?
5. The advertising messages were based upon half-truths, non-California case law and misrepresentation. Some of it was blatant lies -- such as 2nd graders were going to be taught gay marriage in schools.
6. If the Majority of voters wanted to send Mormons to prison camps, would that make it alright?
7. Why are Mormons with their racist past continually try to blame the passage on blacks? Pointing fingers? Actually, the exit poll the 70% figure is based upon some faulty research. Younger blacks voted against prop 8 and older blacks voted for.
8. A slight majority of Hispanics. However, Asians voted against Prop 8. Again, why the focus on minorities? Why the racism and scapegoating?
9. Please state specific Jewish or Muslim groups that gave or were active in the Yes on 8 campaign. I haven't found any. Also, an internal document on wiki-leaks showed that Mormons were pretty much doing all the precinct walking. The church leaders involved with the Yes on 8 campaign were basically bemoaning that they are going to have to do the campaign work all by themselves.
10. Anyone who has ever been a Mormon knows that this statement is a lie. The President of the Church, a man who is sustained as a Prophet with direct communication with God and speaks for God told the members to give all they can. You aren't allowed to second guess the Prophet. Many members took that statement as a commandment to do everything in their power to stop Prop 8. Why the lying about Mormon social norms? As for the civility love and respect, we all know that's a lie after 8 Mormons who were part of a Tongan ward in Los Angeles physically beat a group of lesbians at the end of the LA Temple protest send 7 to the hospital. The attack was shown on CBS 2 News that night. Civility? Words-- mere words.
11. Stop trying to argue law when you have no clue what you are talking about.
12. Tyranny of the majority is the reason we have a representative form of government, not a direct democracy. You shouldn't be able to vote other people's rights away. If you don't like being called a bigot -- then stop being a bigot. You don't like your lies being exposed, then stop lying. For a group quotes the constitution when they trashed the judicial branch, I find it ironic that they only want the constitution to work in their favor only.
JuDeck
· 1 year ago
good come back
MaudGonne
· 1 year ago
Excellent response!!!
Naked Bunny with a Whip
· 1 year ago
On the plus side, it will be sweet when the lawsuits over Prop 8 eventually wind up in the Supreme Court and another Loving-vs-Virginia-style ruling is issued making same-sex marriage legal in all states, including Utah. Everyone make sure to thank the LDS when this eventually happens.
Individual members of the Church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts
Yes, thank you for reiterating the point, which is that the Mormon Church bankrolled hate and bigotry.
PeteWa
· 1 year ago
Too long, didn't read.
Go put your magic underwear on your head.
Indigo
· 1 year ago
Pity the poor Mormons, misled into a public relations storm by that nasty Lord High Archbishop of formerly Salt Lake City and now San Francisco. What a clever Lord High Archbishop. He took out gay rights and the Mormon reputation with one shot. Watch carefully, he's papabile!
Jim Olson
· 1 year ago
No way. No American will every be papabile
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
How can Prop 8 possibly be considered a PR fiasco for the Mormons? It has brought them so much attention, and put a spotlight on their rich tradition of family values, such as polygamy, second class status for women, secretiveness, and aggressive peddling of their beliefs to non-believers who would rather be left alone.
coolcatdaddy
· 1 year ago
It's helping define their brand in the marketplace so you don't confuse them with other religious products. Brilliant move on their part.
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
Lol. They could base their brand name on the angel Moroni who gave Joseph Smith the famous (and missing) golden tablets and sent them on their way across the wilderness to the great lake of salt. They could call it "Moronic Concepts".
Topher
· 1 year ago
You kill me, Rit! :)
Jake
· 1 year ago
~"rules which include accepting Jesus as a polygamist who married his mother and was the brother of Satan, rules which include being forced to convert to Mormonism against your will"
Those are outright lies. You really need to check your facts before you go spewing garbage like that. You obviously have been reading some of the more imaginative anti-mormon literature. That stuff is full of lies. Mormon's don't believe any of that. They do believe that the family is a sacred union, not just in this life, but also in the life to come. They believe familes are eternal unions ordained by God. They believe that sex outside of marraige is wrong whether you are homosexual or heterosexual. They believe in being honest and standing for what they believe is right. Please don't spread lies. It only spreads bigotry, hate and makes this difficult situation more difficult.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
Quit spreading lies yourself.
SoCalGuy
· 1 year ago
I was raised LDS, though I am no longer active in the faith. I am still on the membership rolls, however. Jake, I don't know how old you are, but in the 1960s I was taught that Satan was a fallen brother of Jesus. I was not taught that Jesus was a polygamist or that he married his mother, but I was taught that Heavenly Father had multiple wives and lived on a planet near the star Kolob (as is stated in the Book of Abraham, which is still canonized scripture). Before you accuse others of fabricating anti-Mormon lies, you would do well to do research outside of what the current Priesthood and Sunday School manuals state. Just because concepts are not covered in the CURRENT manuals (manuals = teaching books written by human beings, NOT canonized scripture and not continuing revelation) does not mean that an entire baby boom generation of Mormons was not taught them in Sunday School and Seminary.
Dave of the Jungle
· 1 year ago
If God is a polygamist, why does the Church condemn polygamy?
Naked Bunny with a Whip
· 1 year ago
Because it's run by weasels who will sell out their beliefs for political expediency. Crack open a history book sometime.
An_American_Karol
· 1 year ago
Unlike the lies and bigotry spread by the Mormon church over prop 8?
Boycottutah
· 1 year ago
Like the Mormons stuck to the facts when with the propaganda presented by the Yes on H8 campaign. Oh, and most Mormons believe in one thing. Making money, and what kind of hot sex they will have in the afterlife on their very own planet!!! The Mormon church started out as a polygamous sex cult where men could "marry" as many young girls (literally girls--13 year olds are girls) as could be afforded financially, so of course making money is very important. Money buys lots of underaged flesh. Just like Joseph Smith and Bringum Young liked them!
Tom
· 1 year ago
Sure, so prevent gays from legally marrying and being"ordained" and leave us in a catch 22 where you can throw your arms and and fake innocence. . What a disgusting group of bigots.
Naked Bunny with a Whip
· 1 year ago
They believe familes are eternal unions ordained by God
Obvious lie, see Proposition 8.
They believe in being honest
Obvious lie, see ad campaign for Proposition 8.
Please don't spread lies.
Please show how they are lies. You have nothing but assertions, while John has been posting links for weeks. The Church of LDS has shown by its actions to be run by anti-family hateful bigots who fund and spread lies to get what they want. Arguing over minutiae won't change that.
Dwayne Decker
· 1 year ago
They believe in honesty, but still poured tens of millions of dollars into a dishonest, bigoted campaign that slandered the gay community?
unrepentant_expat
· 1 year ago
"It only spreads bigotry, hate and makes this difficult situation more difficult.
Hey Bozo, watch where the fuck you're casting that stone!
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
unrepent - yea, that was my first response (see above comment) - I thought "...why you fucking hyprocrit" but didn't write that 'cause I try to be civil as much as possible - but it does fit here. Poor Jake, numnuts hasn't a clue in the world does he?
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
If families are eternal unions ordained by God, why are gays 'excommunicated' from both the church and the family? Why are you fucking with God's creations? Too late about the 'hate' thing - I really hate the LDS church and will dedicate a good chunk of my resources to exposing this cult. Bye bye Joseph Smith, the pedophile.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
" It only spreads bigotry, hate and makes this difficult situation more difficult."
Jake - get a job; or read more.
Chrissy
· 1 year ago
Nice Catch 22 Jake for gays.
You can't have sex outside of marriage, but we don't want gays to get married so they can't have sex.
SLC resident
· 1 year ago
John, I do think this is the way to go. Keep the focus on the LDS church (not Sundance, Radisson, or Utah as a whole). Make Prop 8 such a PR fiasco for the LDS church that they'll think twice about getting involved again. The most important thing to them is their reputation, because without it, they have a really hard time converting people to Mormonism.
SLC resident
· 1 year ago
Sorry, meant Marriott, not Radisson hotels.
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
The Mormonism brand needs to be made as ugly in peoples minds as the hate-mongering churches have tried to make gays. Then what? Let the Catholic church (which has condemned and murdered untold numbers of gays for centuries) off scot-free? And the rest of the guilt-tripping churches that have, on a constant weekly basis, perniciously poisoned western cultures against gays, leading ultimately to countless gay teen suicides and boundless unhappiness? What of them? Will we surgically throw a bucket of rotten eggs on the Mormons and expect a political victory next election? Karl Rove and Lee Atwater would be proud. Too bad the Dem leadership can't learn from those two as well.
Boycottutah
· 1 year ago
Remember Anita Bryant, the spokesperson for Florida orangejuice. She was an antigay henchman. When the LGBT community and friends initiated a boycott against Florida oranges, we cut demand for Florida oranges by 21 percent. Imagine what a boycott of the Utah tourism industry would do now during our worst economic meltdown since the Great Depression!!! We need to boycott Utah, and anything with the Mormon Brand on it!!! Our new jingle should be "Look for the Mormon Label!!!
Jay
· 1 year ago
Mormons are losers.
Nuff said.
paulbe
· 1 year ago
How is it that a creepy religious cult ( in the end they are all cults really) has managed to swing so much power? What is wrong with your country? Do you need a militant Atheist movement to take on the christians and all their little sub-branches?
Barbaricino
· 1 year ago
John, ma perche' continui a mistificare gli insegnamenti della Chiesa mormone? Lo sai benissimo che la Chiesa non insegna espressamente o implicitamente che Gesu' ha sposato sua madre. Va bene criticare un confessione religiosa per il suo credo ma dire falsita' al riguardo e' intelletualmente disonesto.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
A Mormon discussing what is intellectually honest? You've got to be kidding. Your leader was a child molester/polygamist.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 1 year ago
where was this indignation when mormons were lying about us in california? are you trying to say they are misunderstood? how does it feel?
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
Oh, and why don't you go to Italy and be a Mormon? I would love to see you try to survive in Napoli.
Older_Wiser
· 1 year ago
OT, but alert! Saxby Chambliss is doomed to lose the GA election--Palin is making 4 appearances for him. : )
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
Georgia Republicons are ready to use their non-verifiable 100% DRE voting system to steal this one just as they did in 2002. Unless Obama stirs his base in Georgia to overwhelm the polls again and the polls leading into the election show Martin in a strong lead, there is NO WAY IN HELL that the tricksters will allow Martin to take it. I don't think that's going to happen unless he personally stumps in Georgia to make it happen. IMHO.
Scy
· 1 year ago
Couldn't happen to a nicer group of religious fools.
Boycottutah
· 1 year ago
A coworker told me a Mormon Joke today:
"Brigham Young is Mormon for "Bring them young". He liked those child brides. Between the Mormon yen for underage girls, and the Catholic priests need to molest underage boys, it makes you wonder why so many homophobic institutions are full of pedophiles!!!
Quickhorn
· 1 year ago
"rules which include accepting Jesus as a polygamist who married his mother"
lolwut? I'm no fan of the LDS church's handling of this situation, but spreading lies is spreading lies. If they did it to you, you'd be pissed. So check the facts. According to LDS doctrine, Jesus never married.
Regarding being forced to convert against your will, I'll assume you mean the idea of "baptisms for the dead" which is a weird practice to be sure, but they believe that it doesn't force your conversion, but gives you some kind of opportunity to in the after-life. Beats being forced to hell if you don't do it in this life imo, but it's still disconcerting.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
'beats being forced to hell' reveals you to be Mormon, hiding in your magic underwear. Why is it that you people always have to lie about yourselves?
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
Through your paranoid glasses, everyone on these threads who don't recite your particular catechism just like you are skulking Mormons.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
I don't know ANYONE who is not a Mormon that supports them or their church. And I have a Mormon 'branch'(actually all ex-Mormons) in my family, I think in the McKay lineage. Anyway, my decision logic is that if someone is defending Mormonism and displays knowledge about some of the more obscure aspects of the religion, they must be a Mormon or a scholar or a Mormon scholar. As the referenced post was far from being 'scholarly,' I assumed that it was a LDS'er. Logic, not paranoia, was employed. Oh and go fuck yourself.
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
I know something about comparative religions but I'm not a Mormon scholar. I know a bit about astronomy but I'm not Jean Luc Picard. I know a bit about propaganda but I'm not Limbaugh. And I know more than enough about you than to trust your so-called logic and assumptions. Tsk Tsk, such schoolyard language. If what you really meant, in all your honed logic, was to tell me to give myself pleasure, then you did, but if you meant the opposite, you missed it -- just as you consistently do in your trigger-happy personal attacks on these threads.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
You also didn't read my post. The original poster said of the Mormon practice of baptizing people after they die: "Beats being forced to hell if you don't do it in this life imo. . ." Who, other than a Mormon, would say something so idiotic? Sorry my language offends you. Your middle of the road approach to this offends me. As the anti-8 campaign was just so afraid to mention same-sex marriage, gays, lesbians, etc so as to not offend 'middle of the road' types, we lost the battle against prop 8. There is a right and wrong. The Mormons are clearly wrong about this and there is going to be hell to pay. I don't look it this as revenge for the vote on 8 as that will eventually be overturned. I am looking to prevent ANY religious or other group from trying to take away rights from anyone in the future. So you should be prepared to be offended for a long time to come. On second though, my 'fuck off' to you still stands.
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
Sorry babe, can't do that. As long as you're such a wild-eyed, foaming radical who bites first and thinks later (if even then), you're dysfunctional and are hurting us to that extent. You could do so much more for the cause if you learned a bit of temperance and courtesy, not to mention respect, that your mommy apparently could not teach you. Well, hon, it's still not too late to learn -- for the sake of the end result.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
Oh, I see. You only see one path to achieve a goal. I see many. I am not the one proscribing how one should behave - you are. Are you sure that you are not Mormon? I'm glad that you weren't around for the Act-Up activists - they were anything but temperate. Of course had they waited for others to recognize their courtesy, they probably all would have died in the process. We may have a common objective and I will support you if you actually do anything to overturn 8 other than whine about how people behave. But I'm not about to conform my actions to your 'old biddy-ish', church lady view of the world.
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
Why Gary, I actually think you may be softening just a little bit around the edges, maybe a real non-robot human in there after all. Goddamn it! doesn't that feel better?
Actually I was around then. And I supported them. And I think we need them back now, but in much, much larger numbers throughout the US.
Well, ta-ta. Till later.
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
Well, it's almost 8 pm and I'm getting just a wee bit noddy--you know how old biddys are. So I must leave this thread now and put on my long warm nightgown and read a chapter in the Book of Mormon, then crochet a little before dropping off for the night in the arms of my three husbands (It's absolutely scandalous the noises I hear them making after I've closed my eyes to sleep.) Well, night night.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
LOL! Three husbands? You're living many gay-man's dream.
Quickhorn
· 1 year ago
So is there no way that we could be immersed in the culture enough to know about some of those intricacies.
Not only that, but how is "You must be a skulking Mormon" any sort of defense against falsehoods? Let's turn this scenario around. Let's say you were on some religious website and saw comments about the LGBTQ community that were false. You stated that those comments were false and then someone just accused you of being a "skulking gay."
Isn't this the exact kind of discussion we want to get away from?
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
In the situation you present, I would indeed be a 'skulking gay' unless I stated up-front that I was gay. There are lots of Mormons posting here as being 'concerned' about this or that (there were Catholics that voted too, etc.). They are trying to deflect and defend, which is fine, but they should be honest in their disclosure. At least the Italian Mormon, who I cannot stand, owns up to it. The others are deceitful or worse. Given the LDS church's propensity for 'investigations', I'm sure that they are trying to collect IP addresses and more.
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
What did the Mormon man say to one of his wives? Howdy cousin.
Primitive Nerd
· 1 year ago
Well, at least those Mormon assholes aren't massacring men, women, and children this time around. Not yet, anyway.
"What are you wearing??..... [place heavy breathing here]"
woodroad34
· 1 year ago
Then you should put the DVD of Latter Days in the player and fantasize over Steve Sandvoss.
Chrissy
· 1 year ago
Here's an idea:
Call them up and find out if it is just a call center hired out by the mormons, but not really run by mormon church members.
Everyone order the BOM, they make great kindling in your fireplace for those cold winter's night. Maybe order 6.
They will probably ask you if you want to missionaries to come and visit you. I would suggest you say yes.
When the missionaries arrive, let them talk and make their presentation because every minute they spend with you is a minute they aren't talking with a potential convert. Then close the meeting with "As much as I would like to join your church, I can't because of the your church's support of Proposition 8, but thanks for the visit." And show them the door.
If everyone did this -- the Mormon church's growth would stop.
MaudGonne
· 1 year ago
U.S. Court Allows Abuse Case vs. Vatican By SUZANNE SATALINE A federal appeals court has permitted a lawsuit over alleged sexual abuse to proceed against the Vatican, creating potential liability for the seat of the Roman Catholic faith for the activities of Catholic clergy in the U.S. Monday's ruling, issued by the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati, marks the first time a court at so high a level has recognized that the Vatican could be liable for the negligence in sexual-abuse cases brought in the U.S. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122756420187954...
Indigo
· 1 year ago
Good news at last!
samiinh
· 1 year ago
“There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is but myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds.” -- Anne Nicol Gaylor
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
Sounds like our gal Anne Nicol was on to something there.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
I almost past up your comment until I noticed that every letter was casting a shadow.
Scy
· 1 year ago
here here
MaudGonne
· 1 year ago
Reporting from San Francisco — The California Supreme Court’s order last week to consider legal challenges to Proposition 8 contained one surprising twist -- the name of the sole justice who voted against hearing the cases. Justice Joyce L. Kennard, a staunchly independent if not stubborn jurist, has a lengthy record of protecting gay rights, including the right to marry, and often sides with the underdog in rulings. In fact, her record is so unwavering that many gay-rights activists and several independent legal scholars surmised that her vote against hearing the legal challenges was procedural -- for example, she might have wanted them to be filed in lower courts first -- and did not reflect her thinking on the cases.
But a close reading of the court's one-page order suggests that gay-rights advocates may have lost a usually predictable ally in their effort to overturn Proposition 8. "It definitely isn't a good sign," said UCLA Law Professor Brad Sears, an expert on sexual-orientation law. http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prop8-c...
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
Maud - any first year law student knows that the state would have to overcome the highest of burdens to trounce on the civil rights of a minority group. No argument gets them there. That a simple majority of the soveriegn can quash the civil rights of a minority group through voting is absurd on its face. Scy brings out a good point above.
MaudGonne
· 1 year ago
If nothing else over the past eight years, I have learned that there is very little that works the way it should in the twenty first century.....
Scy
· 1 year ago
Yeah her vote was a surprise. Like you said, it could have been that she thought it should go through the lower courts first but that it would be a bad thing for the current state of Gay marriage to bounce back and forth as it crawled up the judicial ladder. I've read some of her other opinions and I tend to think that is the case but it is sure tough to tell.
red_dwarf
· 1 year ago
I might have jumped the gun a bit on my response below - like I said, this is an EASY question. I would have to agree that Kennard must have some other rationale - which should have been made clear - however, the rest of the Justices did not agree - I don't see why the case couldn't immediately be brought and decided but I little of jurisdiction and rules of procedure in the California system.
Scy
· 1 year ago
Agreed. I am a retired atty/judge and after reading the initial decision granting gay marriage I just don't see how they can allow Prop 8 to stand. They specifically found that marriage was a fundamental right. And they have ruled before that Props can't be used to change fundamental rights.
But, as a former judge, I know all too well that rulings can surprise you.
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
Careful John, it isn't wise to freak out the mormons.
... they might ask all the gay activists to attend a meeting to mend fences.... in Mountain Meadows.
circle the wagons and bring ammo.
woodroad34
· 1 year ago
Ummm, that's bringing up images of Matthew Shepherd.
John Paul Rice
· 1 year ago
Hey all,
I thought this might be a good forum to announce that a indie feature film, financed by a Los Angeles based production company, is in pre-production entitled THE BOY WHO COULDN'T SAY NO, a coming of age dramedy (in the vein of American Beauty, Little Miss Sunshine & Secretary) The story of Jake Wilson, a 19 year old Mormon virgin who falls in love with an ex-dominatrix, Becky Lewis. Unknown to Jake, Becky is in serious debt and is forced to blackmail him for his Mission savings. This sets in motion a coming-of-age journey where Jake discovers the strength to follow his own path. The story is an honest look at the challenges we face growing up as teenagers and adults - trying to find our way while coming to accept ourselves and others for who they are.
Anyone who is interested in knowning more or getting involved with the production can contact the producers via email - talent_at_norestrictionsent_dot_com
BuddyNovinski
· 1 year ago
If the Mormons want to continue fighting the nineteenth century, that is their choice. However, the last presidential election suggests we no longer fight the twentieth. Therefore, we don't want them to force us to fight the nineteenth as well!
Indigo
· 1 year ago
I can never figure out the etiquette on when it's appropriate to mention the Mountain Meadows Massacre.
Scy
· 1 year ago
Whenever you can. =)
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
ya know... maybe we should have a Utah Pride celebration in Mountain Meadows.
considering what they're trying to do to us, wouldn't it be symbolic??
Indigo
· 1 year ago
It would, yes, but I'm boycotting Utah so I can't cross the picket line to get there.
woodroad34
· 1 year ago
Thank god you're on our side -- your powers of PR are strong in the force.
It's just a few miles across the Arizona border in SW Utah. Make it a bag lunch day trip across from AZ, complete with a few hundred people, cameras and a gay-friendly reporter in tow--just enough to get it in the news.
glaukopis
· 1 year ago
I've heard recently that the LDS is now playing a large role in the Boy Scouts. Has anyone else heard this?
Lolly
· 1 year ago
They pretty much run the Boy Scouts--hence the heavy-handed anti-gay stance of the BSA. That's been going on for a while. The Boy Scouts are actually the official "youth movement" for boys in the Mormon Church.
Girl Scouts haven't enjoyed similar status, however. Too much emphasis on girls being self-reliant and strong. The Mormons pretty much ignore Girl Scouts.
Jim Olson
· 1 year ago
Yep. Its true. I sent back my Eagle certificate and ribbon long ago. Scouts is a sad sham of what it once was.
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
What's this thing I've read somewhere that the Yes on Prop 8 folks are now threatening to recall every Supreme who votes to overturn Prop 8? Sounds like a call to a take-no-prisoners war has been invoked. Who will answer their call?
woodroad34
· 1 year ago
Yeah, that's their plan -- but they will lose that war as well. Can you imagine intimidating the judiciary while you have a case before them? Not smart, just venal and acid.
samiinh
· 1 year ago
Besides Sundance and Mariot Hotels, what other major companies have Mormon ties?
Thanks for that list. It's amazing, the list reads like some Mormon Cult Crime Syndicate. Just think of all the millions and millions of dollars that are funneled into the Mormon Cult so that they may continue their campaigns of hate. Maybe the IRS will have some success in shutting down the Mormon Cult and those that provide for their slush funds.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 1 year ago
Idaho potatoes too? Drat.
askwoodman
· 1 year ago
Thank you for the list. There are a number of companies listed that will never see another dime from my businesses. Rational argument is a waste of time. Their brains have not only been washed, but dry cleaned. The only way to impact their behavior is to mess with their cash.
Glootaus
· 1 year ago
This is the answer to the question of what to do about this. Protests work only up to a point., whereas Money talks. Boycotting these businesses needs to be priority #1. Especially now.
Tell your friends.
woodroad34
· 1 year ago
Gee, I wonder if they might consult Tom Cruise in the future, since their attitude towards destroying an adherent's life if they don't tow the line seem oddly in sync (with apologies to Lance Bass, et al) with Scientologists. Creatures from the Black Salt Lake.
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
I simply cannot wait for the next Mormon Cult "missionaries" that show up at my front door. I figure that once they're inside...they are mine. I will do my best to insure that they leave in tears. I am going to show them the exact same amount of dignity, love and respect that they have shown us. I shall relish the moment.
mirth
· 1 year ago
A word of caution, Den Dover:
As a former Mormon and presently as the Aunt of two young men now serving as missionaries for the Mormon church, I can tell you that about 90% of them are still in their teens (19 their average age) and half-scared when they ring a doorbell. What they can say and/or respond to what you might say is tightly scripted and they cannot deviate from their script. All of their actions while on their mission are rigidly controlled, including their every move when not on the streets. Considering that they would be severely criticized if they did not go on their rite-of-passage mission - for which they brainwashed from birth and for which they and their families do not receive any compensation from the church and this in most instances mean they are, at least at times, barely scraping together money for food - they aren't necessarily there of their own free will.
Do with them what you will, but also keep in mind their circumstances. Sometimes just offering them a sandwich or a dinner creates an atmosphere that makes them more open to hear what you have to say and what you might teach them, even if it's just a seed of doubt.
shanobama
· 1 year ago
Good idea mirth. Rescue of all boys from a dangerous bigoted cult would be a good thing!
Maybe there should be a ballot initiative making it illegal for the Mormons to send these boys out missions?
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
mormon deprogramming!!
strap them down with a martini, a plate of good Pate, a Vanity Fair magazine and make them watch all of Michael Moore's movies.
mirth
· 1 year ago
shanobama,
I hadn't thought of this, but, YES!, to our protests against the actions of the Mormon church we could add a coordinated effort of intervention to all the missionaries who show up at our doors. They are tools, but in most cases they are genuine and sweet tools. We can make it risky for the church to send them out, risky in the sense that they may have their brainwashed minds opened.
Soundboy_jeff-meanie (just below),
!BIG LAUGH!
You slay me, in the best possible way.
Barbaricino
· 1 year ago
ok it is true we Mormons have invented straight marriage. For century human kind was enjoying same sex marriage and then Mormons came and began to teach about heterosexual behavior ruing that perfect world. Also Mormons have wrote the bible that teaches that sex is permitted only between man and woman joint in matrimony. What else: did we burn Rome too? Oh yes... the Chicago fan Steve Bartman must have been a Mormon. Saddam Hussein was a Mormon and who knows who else. All the people that in America who believe that marriage should be between a man and woman is a mormon.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 1 year ago
there's a big bright bullseye on your church. the coming fusillade will drown out your protestations. your best chance is to apologize and beg for mercy.
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
that's it Steve, I agree 100%.
nothing says "I'm sorry" like a cute mormon missionary on his knees in front of you ;-)
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
Forget the apologies and begging. Make it real. Jointly cooperate with gays in getting new liberal gay marriage propositions passed in all states. Until then, ready, aim, fire!
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
actually, the funniest thing about your cult is that the book of mormon is based on the KING JAMES EDITION OF THE BIBLE.
odd how moroni didn't know Aramaic... or even Latin?
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
one other thing... I wouldn't be surprised if saddam hussein is NOW a mormon.
you guys have an odd way of baptising posthumously. hitler, for instance, is now a mormon.
I'm thinking the gay community should start taking names from mormon graves... and maybe baptising them into the church of satan or something.
sounds like fun!!
woodroad34
· 1 year ago
Perhaps we could visit Mormon graves and put toasters in them (re: Ellen)
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
Frankly, I don't give a damn what you Mormons believe. None of us would be talking about it at all if you would just keep it to yourselves. But you have to push it down other people's throats. You made us laugh at you by shoving your nonsense in our faces. Otherwise, who would give a damn? If you don't want to be laughed at, then don't wash your sacred underwear in public. If you like polygamy, that's your business. If you don't like gay marriage, then be sure not to marry someone of the same gender. But if you're going to tell me who I can marry, expect to have your hypocrisy thrown in your face. Oh, and stop knocking on people's doors trying to get them to convert. Unless of course you'd like gay people to do the same.
woodroad34
· 1 year ago
Well said. They made their bed and are now complaining about the bedbugs they brought in. This scrutinization and anger is because of their actions.
Dan
· 1 year ago
Better get used to jokes about magical mormon underwear.
Hows that research in South America going? I heard you still haven't found any evidence at all for any of the people or places portrayed in the book of mormon. Must be rough.
PROUD
· 1 year ago
OK you idiots i am on their side It is not only the mormon church that is against gay marriage so is the cristian and catholic churchs stupid ok got it good. Mormons are a very small precentage of the U.S they could not have done it alone with no other religion can't you all just think before you act!!
Steve_in_CNJ
· 1 year ago
lmao. are you new?
woodroad34
· 1 year ago
And can he put a legitmate sentence together?
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
one paragraph for you, then a bit on my soapbox:
"Californians Against Hate released figures Tuesday showing that $17.67 million was contributed by 59,000 Mormon families since August to groups like Yes on 8. Contributions in support of Prop. 8 total $22.88 million. Additionally, the group reports that Mormons have contributed $6.9 million to pass a a similar law, Proposition 102, in Arizona."
no, it wasn't just the morons... err, mormons. but they were the LARGEST contributors.
In fact, the MORMONS pulled the Catholics/evangelicals INTO THIS BATTLE. why? because the MORMONS always felt that the catholics and evangelicals thought of them as 'cultists' and 'not true christians'.... so, they fought to take away our civil rights to form a bridge with the christian right.
does that make you feel better? not only did they contribute a shitload of the total raised... but they really only did it to shore up relations with other christian hate groups.
Tyler Mabry
· 1 year ago
Speaking of contributions (admittedly off-subject), last time I searched the database of donors I didn't find my name. I donated through the ActBlue link that was posted on AmericaBlog. Can anyone explain? If large funneling agencies are obscuring the indvidual names of donors, how do we know who all the YES on H8 donors were?
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
Good question. Same thing happened to me. I donated through ActBlue and my name doesn't appear either.
PROUD
· 1 year ago
you are just a joke first of all get all of your facts right the catholics voluntarilly came into this situation. What is your religion. I would hate to be part of your predjudice religion!!! If your gay good for you stay that way fall in love live with your love do whatever doesnt mean you have to marry it is not that big of a deal GOT IT!!
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
why wouldn't the catholics get into it voluntarily? they hate to spend money, and the mormons were ALL for that!
however, you should check up on it, the mormons ASKED the catholics/evangelicals to work with them... as I said, trying to form a bond in their hate.
read a bit... and not just Faux New's website.
PROUD
· 1 year ago
I do read and I know. If i didn't know I wouldn't be rambling on about something that was false and untrue. I am going to take you up on a challenge go to a mormon church once you don't have to listen or agree to what they say. Just go we have gays in our ward.
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
sitting at the back of the bus.
sorry, I steer clear of cults.
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
cristian
That Mormon Cult home schooling is really shining through.
Scy
· 1 year ago
Even the state recognizes selective prosecution. If you have 3 people that commit the same crime, the state can decide to just prosecute one of them even if the other 2 are equally guilty.
Dan
· 1 year ago
Religion, it makes you stupid, PROUD is proof.
PROUD
· 1 year ago
you are just a joke first of all get all of your facts right the catholics voluntarilly came into this situation. What is your religion. I would hate to be part of your predjudice religion!!! If your gay good for you stay that way fall in love live with your love do whatever doesnt mean you have to marry it is not that big of a deal GOT IT!
Gary SF
· 1 year ago
Hey your mommy is calling - dinner is ready.
PROUD
· 1 year ago
your daddy's calling oh nevermind your daddy left u cuz your prejudice!!!
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
your daddy's calling oh nevermind your daddy left u cuz your prejudice!!!
---
where's my red mark up pen when I need it?
in third grade Mrs. Shannon taught me the difference between your and you're... the worst part of this conversation seems to be the mangling of the English language.
funny, my Husband is English... and he always accuses me of mangling the language.
sorry, 'cuz' is much worse than leaving the second 'i' out of 'aluminium'.
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
easy to say when you have that right and I don't.
BTW, I am gay... and I AM married.
from the sound of your rantings, I seriously think sexuality shouldn't come into play when it comes to marriage contracts... IQ should.
stupid people shouldn't breed, and if 'breeding' is the only true reason for man/woman only marriage(according to most religious zealots when the 'sanctity' arguement doesn't hold water), there should be an intelligence test prior to the issuance of the license.
because, as I said, stupid people shouldn't breed... it only perpetuates the problem, for the rest of us.
one other observation... it always strikes me as poetic when someone yelling at us for standing up for our rights, can't seem to type coherantly. which goes back to the point I was making above.
PROUD
· 1 year ago
ok i think you should have rights but if it was already voted like that then there is nothing you can do about it and where are you getting this unaccurate information...? ONLINE! guess what not everything opnline is true. Do you live in prehistoric times?
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
wrong asshat.
the function of a constitution (federal OR state), is to protect the minority from the will of the majority.
this will be overturned, trust me. you don't allow people to vote on the civil rights of an ALREADY CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED CLASS.
THAT is a change in the very basis of the constitution of California, NOT an amendment...
in other words (ignoring the fact that adding prop 8's language to the constituion creates a conflict with the equal protection clause), they need the LEGISLATURE to vote on whether or not it should be on the ballot.
the prop 8 people knew the legislature in California would table the proposition... hell, the California legislature PASSED gay marriage rights TWICE already. so the prop 8 people just went around the legislature, which isn't legal in California.
BTW... where are you getting YOUR info?
woodroad34
· 1 year ago
Karen Armstrong, a former catholic nun/award-winning author of comparative religion, has said that Christianity (and that includes Mormons if they insist on being referred to as Christians) must change its view on Homosexuality or they will die out.
Barbaricino
· 1 year ago
Yes, Karen Armstrong, the famous and influential....who? said what? really?
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
did I mention I baptised brigham young into the church of satan?
what's that line from the Exorcist?? something about sucking cock in hell?
Then it is my fondest wish that they don't change their views.
RDM50
· 1 year ago
I am representative of the neutral set ,and from what I've seen here ,and all over is an attack on religion ! Thats all this is ! You see nothing ,but hate coming from the gay protesters everywhere .You people are supposedly meek ,and mild ,and all around love bearing people ,but you have shown us all how hate filled you can be. It is rediculas for you to get on here attacking religion ! What you should be doing is just backing off ,and start again with diligence ,and straitforwardness with intelligence ,and begin again without the hate filled ralleys .Thats what is turning California ,and everyone else against you ! If you took the militance out of your occurences ,you might sway the public in a few years to your cause . Then you would win a public vote .Learn from the past . People like to be swayed , not forced into something by human nature ! Cut the blame ,and bullying ,and get with it if you ever want anything concrete like marriage .
LanceThruster
· 1 year ago
Couldn't have happened to a nicer bunch of religious fanatics.
monitor
· 1 year ago
Note to readers:
This sitemonitor has about had my fill of Barbaricino (and a few other Mormon trolls). If you feel the same way, just say the word...
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
I don't know. It's kind of entertaining to see the Mormons here wallowing in martyrdom after they've attacked millions of Californians. Certainly more entertaining than the 2002 Winter Olympics from Utah! Did you see all those conservative young Mormons in covered wagons? Booooooring! Honestly, young people shouldn't look that constipated. Now the Beijing Olympics.... THOSE were interesting!
Scy
· 1 year ago
Oh let em talk, we'll hammer em with the truth.
PAY LAY ALE!
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
They do seem to get their mysterious, magical underwear all knotted up rather easily.
Brad
· 1 year ago
Mormons target liberty. I shop elsewhere than Mormon business now. Great deals on food online compared to the local box stores anyway.
shanobama
· 1 year ago
too bad I went to Moab last summer to go hiking.
No. More. Tourist. Dollars., Utah. 'm'k?
foxy
· 1 year ago
Dear Mormon Trolls, I am trying to learn about your Church: 1.) Why did Joseph Smyth crowned himself KING? 2.) What happened at Mountain Meadows, on that fateful day when the Mormons murdered 120 innocent men, women and children? 3.) When after the 'proclamation of the end of celestial marriage' (on earth) hundreds of church leaders continued to practice it, in violation of the law, the state constitution and their own GOD? 4.)Why did Mormons killed two state troopers, and then viciously mutilated one of the bodies at Hauns Mill? 5.) Why did the Church extorted 22 million dollars from their membership so they could publish lies and distortions to win a battle which has nothing to do with god or religion, but demoralized and disenfranchised an entire group of Americans? 6.)Why aren't you taking personal responsibility for the acts committed by one of your own, a domestic terrorist that bombed a Salt Lake City landmark building and blew up two innocent people?
Barbaricino
· 1 year ago
Read more about it and you'll get the answers to your inquires
foxy
· 1 year ago
Yes, I am trying too... Also, Why did the Mormons denied the priesthood to some men based solely on the color of their skin for more than 24 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act?
Barbaricino
· 1 year ago
Maybe my last note for a while,
Believe it or not before, in my previous location, I became friend of a gay couple and my wife and I used to go to their little shop even when sometimes was not convenient timewise, they were good people. One of my best friend is gay and that was not a problem for us in terms of friendships we have discussed about homosexuality and Church (he knows the Mormon Church). Even thought we had different opinions on the matter we always respect each other position and feelings. Do you want criticize the Mormon Church for its position on gay marriage? Go for it. Democracy (ballots, blogs, media) and courts are the place to do it. I just have hard time when Church teachings and history are misrepresented. And also when who expresses a different opinion is labeled in a prejudicial way like th Mormons have been by John and some of the people posting here. Have a good one! Bye
shanobama
· 1 year ago
If you don't want gay marriage, then don't have one.
Bigotry, particularly religious bigotry, has all kinds of historical roots. So did racial bigotry, but the law is to protect the minority and enable equal rights for all, even GLBT persons.
How would the church handle genetically ambiguous humans?
Seriously!, or seniors above the age of reproduction getting married? Seniors get married everyday in this nation.
People get divorced, your religious beliefs do not accommodate divorce either. Why do you not fight this political battle on sexuality, too? No gay marriage, no sterile marriages, no divorce. Just put your whole agenda on the bill instead of singling out same sex unions.
Ben Dover
· 1 year ago
Cultists and cockroaches always have the same reaction to illumination by skittering off and away from scrutiny.
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
So let's see. You have a gay friend, and you feel you have gone out of your way to be good to him. It is no problem for you that he is gay, and you respect his opinions and feelings, even though you disagree. And that respect extends to taking his right to marry away at the ballot box. You respect his feelings so much that if he happened to be married you would vote to invalidate his marriage.
And you feel ballots are the place to determine people's rights. So if the rights of Mormons were put on a ballot, you would respect that. So if the tax-exempt status of the Mormon church were put to a vote, you would respect that. If the right for Mormons to go door to door were put to a vote, you would respect that. If the right of Mormons to adopt children were put to a vote, you would respect that. If the right of Mormons to marry were put to a vote, you would respect that.
And you feel that Mormons have simply expressed "a different opinion" on gay marriage. You don't feel that Mormons have actually taken aggressive action to change other people's lives. You don't feel that Mormons were forcing non-believers to conform to a Mormon viewpoint. You don't think that invalidating 18,000 marriages and denying millions the right to marry was actually doing anything. Mormons were just expressing an opinion.
And you feel that Mormons are being treated with prejudice. You don't feel that they have acted out of prejudice.
And you feel that Mormons have been misrepresented. You don't feel that they have misrepresented gay people in a deceptive ad campaign. You feel that Mormons are the victims here.
You're a very interesting man. Bye
Dan
· 1 year ago
"I have a black friend, but I don't think it's proper for the feds to say that BYU must allow blacks to attend"
Undoubtably, this discussion occured during the 60s... ;)
Antinous
· 1 year ago
I feel you have been let down by your cult. If you believe your religious cult gives you the right to oppress others, then you have been living in a dream world. You hit me, I hit you back, I don't wait until a court says it's OK. Maybe you should re-examine your beliefs, ....before it's too late to apologize and ask forgiveness.
jmf
· 1 year ago
Face it Mormons - you have judged, therefore, now, YOU are being judged: I think Jesus said that would happen.
foxy
· 1 year ago
Yes, indeed the Lord works in mysterious ways.
exmormon
· 1 year ago
I agree completely, Mormons including my own mother, seemed to think it was their right to take away the rights of other human beings in this country.
As I told her, and anyone that would listen, this i not the way of the true America.
grennmanTN
· 1 year ago
Look up "Lying For The Lord" as it relates to Mormons. It's very instructive. If it benefits the LDS church they have NO COMPUNCTION about flat-out lying. If it makes the church look bad, lie. If it gains a convert, lie.
exmormon
· 1 year ago
wow, you have no idea what you are talking about. If you have a true statement to make, do it....but to completely lie, just makes you look bad.
There's plenty to hang the mormons with here, why lie to create more rope?
mirth
· 1 year ago
No you have no idea what you are talking about.
Lying For The Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith's denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by "anti-Mormons" and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley's dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism's history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light."
"Never give the "meat" doctrines. Always give "milk:"
Wow, 2 people pointing to the same bullshit? How interesting!!!!!!!!!!!!
Again, I will repeat, we were never taught to lie about anything, but, crazies always love to distorth the facts.
mirth
· 1 year ago
I'm also an exmormon and I was taught to lie for the lord.
I guess you were outta the loop.
Or you are not so "ex."
Hmmmmm?
Ben
· 1 year ago
Or perhaps it was your experience that was more unique than others.
Hmmm?
mirth
· 1 year ago
Silly you, Ben.
Uniqueness is not allowed in the Mormon church.
Face it. You just don't know what you are talking about. Or, at the least, you weren't much of a Mormon.
RainbowPhoenix
· 1 year ago
Or he could still be "lying for the lord."
mirth
· 1 year ago
LOL
True!
kareema
· 1 year ago
How about the nice, idyllic descriptions of how the poor persecuted Mormons came into their "Eden" in Utah, empty and waiting for them to flourish in it? Oh wait, it turns out there was a large native American population already there, but no problem: disease and the justification that these pre-existing populations had "forsaken the Bible" took care of them. And remember the murder of California-bound settlers in the Utah territory (Mountain Meadow Massacre) where they tried to pretend they were natives attacking them?
DavidinPS
· 1 year ago
"Lying for the Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith's denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by "anti-Mormons" and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley's dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism's history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light. This is part of the larger package of things that lead many to describe Mormonism as a cult. "Lying for the lord" is part of Mormonism's larger deceptive mainstreaming tactics, and conversion numbers would drastically lower if important Mormon beliefs were fully disclosed to investigators. "
From this day forward, never use the word Mormon without the word cult, example; "The Mormon cult will be singing at the Mormon Cult tabernacle next week," Let them forever bear the scars of bigotry gone bad.
Ben
· 1 year ago
If just spending money is a way to "force" your views on others then why did Prop 8 pass? From reports I've heard just as much if not more money was spent on a "No on Prop 8" campaign to no avail. That would seem to at least neutralize the monetary influence of the Mormons and suggest that there were other reasons that the people of California amended their constitution. In addition, it has rarely (if ever) been popular to be Mormon. That is the problem when you have a firm belief of the truth and societies accepted morals continually degrade. Mormons aren't going to change their outlook on homosexuality whether it is a "PR fiasco" or not. There are more important things than whether all the internet trolls agree with your beliefs. All the inflammatory rhetoric and false implication of Constitutional issues is not going to change that.
RitornaVincitor
· 1 year ago
You Mormons really have the martyr thing down, don't you? Can't stop playing the victim. Guess you can't see how ridiculous that looks in this situation. It's not going to work, you know. Now if you really don't care what the rest of us think about you, then you'll be fine. You'll be isolated, but you'll be fine. Problem is, you really DO care what the rest of us think about you. Otherwise during the planning period your church leaders wouldn't have worried about being seen as spearheading the anti-gay crusade. Otherwise your church leaders wouldn't be concerned about the big PR mess you've gotten yourselves into. Otherwise you wouldn't care about the boycotts. Otherwise you wouldn't be writing messages to us on this blog.
As for the "other reasons that the people of California amended their constitution", it comes down to simple fear, ignorance and hate.... all of which, with their dollars and their dishonest ad campaign and their distorted sense of Jesus, the Mormons exploited. Nice work. Jesus must be just as proud as you are. Did Jesus preach against the gays in the Book of Mormon? Because he didn't in the bible. He never said a word about it. But I seem to remember him going on and on and on about love. Remember love?
Ben
· 1 year ago
Love does not mean condoning all action. What did Jesus say to the woman taken in adultery? "Go thy way and sin no more." He didn't say I love you so go do whatever you want. In addition, your interpretation of the Bible may not show teachings against homosexuality but I posit that it is incorrect. Of course Mormons would be happy if everyone thought our religion is great and wanted to join (otherwise we would have 10's of thousands of missionaries) but the fact is not everyone is going to and that won't ever change. You also neatly avoided the issue of an equal/greater amount of money being spent on the "No on Prop 8" side.
mirth
· 1 year ago
Ben, pay attention.
No one is asking you to condone anything.
We're telling you to get your religion out of our government.
Ben
· 1 year ago
Actually, I was responding to RitornaVincitor's comment which specifically asked, "Did Jesus preach against the gays in the Book of Mormon? Because he didn't in the bible. He never said a word about it. But I seem to remember him going on and on and on about love. Remember love?" Turns out I was paying attention.
shanobama
· 1 year ago
So you just want to decide who can love each other, right? Because Jesus was not clear on this issue, you think the Mormon Church can decide by revelation.
Well the Mormons used to think polygamy was a revelation from God. Now they dont condone polygamy, (or so they say).
What makes you think God is not going to come through with the revelation that same sex marriage is divine and good? Has God already made this revelation and the Mormon Church is too blind to see that it is true?
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
actually, good point.
how do the mormons condone changing something that God himself said was good? ala, polygamy?
I don't get it, supposedly God himself had as many wives as he could catch... and mormonism was founded on that teaching... and then suddenly *poof!*, they no longer condone polygamy.
I don't get it... all the preaching about Leviticus and all that crap from the catholic/christian evangelicals... and yet, catholics can no longer buy indulgences from the church, and evangelicals seem to miss that 'gay sex' isn't in the BIG 10, but expect to be forgiven for breaking any of those commandments.
why is there always a double-standard from religious fanatics when you compare their lifestyles against their own religious teachings?
if they're judging me by their Bible, why can't I judge THEM by it?
site_reader
· 1 year ago
uh Jeff Meanie, do some research. Mormon's still believe in polygamy. Mainstream Mormonism still believes in polygamy. There is no double-standard. They would still be practicing it if it were legal in the United States. The issue is that the government outlawed it. Persecuted and destroyed the families of the Mormon men who had married more than one wife in the late 1800's and later passed laws against it. Some moved to Mexico (eg "the Colonies") to continue what was known as the Celestial form of marriage. Despite this the Mormon church has ceased polygamy because it is against the law in most countries. They were forced to. They don't believe that God is going to come down and intervene and they believe in honoring and in sustaining the law. So chose the later. They believe polygamy will be brought back someday. There is no parallel in their mind between gay marriage and polygamy. Marriage is for one reason only - to raise up a "righteous seed" unto the Lord. Gay marriage is a dead end. There is no procreation there. What's the point in their mind. Marriage in their mind is about a biological compatible couple having children and then raising them to follow God's commandments or at the very least being good to those around them. In Mormonism the most important aspect of coming into this life is getting a physical body. Thus I would say - Gay marriage isn't compatible with that where-as polygamy is God's approved pattern for speeding this process along.
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
So, in other words... mormons would be all for having fertility tests as part of marriage.
if the only purpose for marriage is procreation, infertile couples and those who don't want children shouldn't be allowed to marry, right?
however, by the laws of this country (and about 99.9% of all others), fertility isn't a qualification for marriage... if they're abiding by the laws, then they're also changing their views BASED on those laws.
Put it this way... the original teaching of momonism was that God colored the 'indifferent' people (black people?) so they'd be recognised... hence, it didn't fit to have black members of the mormon religion because they could never be 'righteous'... and yet, when civil rights laws were passed... eventually they allowed black members into the mormon church.
It would be interesting to hear what a black member of the mormon faith would have to say about this change in their beliefs. By their views, God handed down these laws, how can the mormon church decide "well, he really didn't mean that there couldn't be black members of the church"?
My point I suppose is that infertile couples can adopt or have a surrogate, just like gay couples... it makes no sense for them to believe that God would've cursed "white" people (the supposed children of Christ) with infertility if everyone is supposed to strive to get to heaven via having as many children as possible.
And if the mormon church can accept black people, after changing their veiws because of the laws of this country (and the laws on polygamy)... there are probably infertile members as well.
its very interesting to me that most people of faith, when their faith actually CHANGES its laws to fall in line with those of men, don't recognize the hipocrisy of their religions.
God's laws can be changed when men decide they aren't legal anymore? hipocrisy.
DaddyTodd
· 1 year ago
Ben, you must know that Jesus didn't preach against gays in the Book of Mormon. I assume you've read it? 'Cause my copy doesn't have a single passage dealing with SSA -- no matter how much Bruce R. McConkie tried to twist some very generic statements into explicit condemnations of homosexuality.
Please give me some citations if I'm wrong.
RainbowPhoenix
· 1 year ago
On the monetary issue, the no on 8 side had a larger hurdle to jump. It's easy to inflame old prejudices, not so easy to get people to think about the things they've been taught.
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
funny, sometimes I wonder if the biggest issue with gay marriage is... if gay men (or women) are allowed to marry each other, who would the "heterosexuals" cheat on their spouses with?
mirth
· 1 year ago
Interestingly, Mormons also weren't going to change their outlook on African-Americans and the priesthood until an impending "IRS fiasco."
A revelation may just be around the corner!
So we shall see...
blabrmouth
· 1 year ago
Nothing like raising public awareness onto your own little issues!
Jimmy
· 1 year ago
Nice to see a well-researched, unbiased take on mormonism... oh wait.
Karl
· 1 year ago
While I'll agree that the LDS Church has made a serious PR blunder with it's extreme opposition to Prop 8, I think it's unfair to classify all Mormons as "hateful" and "filthy rich bigots." I moved to Salt Lake City five years ago for work and have met several Mormons that are great people. I researched the religion in depth, but chose to remain with my own set of beliefs. You would probably be surprised by how many regular church going Mormons didn't agree with the Church's stance on Prop 8. I know several in just my circle of friends.
It appears to me that the only things you know about Mormons are the punch lines tossed around in religious conversations. It's very easy to jump on the "hate the Mormons" bandwagon (which is very popular over the past few months), but you lose all credibility when act as a bigot when attacking a group for being bigoted. From your misleading and inaccurate summary of Mormon "rules" it is apparent that you know nothing about LDS theology and use what little tidbits of information you can muster up to fuel your own hate.
I'll fully admit that there are elements of Mormonism that are bizarre. But isn't all religion a bit strange? For example, Moses seeing God in a burning bush, transubstantiation, speaking in tongues, the rapture, etc. I really think there's enough awkward doctrines to go around among all religions.
Well, I'm rambling on way too much now (especially on something I really don't care that much about), so I'll just leave it at this:
1. Do your homework about a group if you're going to attack and ridicule them on doctrinal grounds, so that you don't seem ignorant. 2. You can't effectively fight narrow views with hatred and expect to convince others of anything. You come of as a simple bigot that is no better than those you attack.
My two cents...
flug
· 1 year ago
OTOH a relative of mine is a Mormon in California who (thanks to prodding from his immediate church leaders) has become very, very involved in the Prop 8 campaign--going door to door, handing out materials, etc.
There is no question that the Mormon church in California totally mobilized behind this, strongly encouraged members to donate both money and time, and this has led to a real polarizing of LDS members there in regards to this issue. It's been dominating discussion in Mormon wards there in California for months.
So yeah, there are certainly many individuals who are LDS and have a different opinion. But there is also no doubt about where the official position lies. And there is also no doubt that the official church actions the have led many members who (at the church's behest ) have participated in pro-Prop 8 activities, have also led many of these same church members to adopt more polarized anti-gay attitudes.
An Atheist
· 1 year ago
2. You can't effectively fight narrow views with hatred and expect to convince others of anything. You come of as a simple bigot that is no better than those you attack. ----
No better than those you attack? One is doing the evil, and the other one is simply unfairly pointing out the group that is doing it. I can't help but think you're biased -- would you say this to someone who would attack the Nazis with hatred? (lol lost the argument)
some guy
· 1 year ago
Nice. Comparing Mormonism to the Nazis. Give me a break. I'd take biased over ignorant any day.
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
umm... that's totally a spin comment.
'An Atheist' didn't compare mormonism with nazis.
re-read the comment, he was rebuking the arguement... and your response was very rush limbaugh/bill o'reiley-esque.
Debra
· 1 year ago
They turn a blind eye to the polygamy in Utah and neighboring states, permitting it to continue. Yet they felt that they had to pour millions into California to stop the gay marriage, which they consider a problem, unlike the polygamy and forced marriages between "prophets" and young unwilling girls.
Indythinker
· 1 year ago
Waiting patiently for the protests to get started at the LA mosques.
Chrissy
· 1 year ago
Waiting patiently for any proof on specific mosques that actively participated in the Yes on 8 campaign.
beth
· 1 year ago
when you plant seeds of hate, you need to expect to reap crops of the same.
j_as
· 1 year ago
Unfortunately, neither side is blameless. It's going to be an ugly harvest.
alogicbit@hotmail.com
· 1 year ago
well consider that the mormon religion is a complete scam, basically the entire framework and belief system is based on a vision, which actually never happened, I am one to find their entire existence a bit pointless.
alas, they have now gone and shown themselves to be rather meddlesome.
what to do?
I know what the french revolutionaries would have said...
Karl
· 1 year ago
Fortunately, we live in America where people are entitled to believe anything they want (no matter how bizarre or inaccurate). Perhaps living in red China would be a better fit for your ideology, where religion and expression is squashed by the state. I tend to believe all religion is a little bit absurd, but I'm glad I live in a place where people can express themselves and live in accordance with their system of beliefs without fear of the "guillotine."
gwyneth
· 1 year ago
Maybe Mormons should take that advise because the gays believe that they are born that way. Do you see why your arguement doesn't make any sense? You want the Mormons to have their cake and eat it too. So, they get civil rights and anyone who doesn't believe in Mormonism doesn't get civil rights? Is that what your arguing? Because you realize that Mormons are the persecutors in this as it was they who want to take away rights from minority groups.
pauls101
· 1 year ago
Did the LDS take a hand in all the Prop-8 related elections across the country, or just in CA? Bear in mind that the no-gay-marriage crowd lost *everywhere* (CA was just the biggest surprise.)
What did the Mormons do that's remotely as bad as the losing side in CA, who last I heard is trying to get a court to invalidate the majority of the state who voted against what "everyone" knows is "right." It's bad enough that any court, anywhere, any time, can override (or even touch!) a direct popular election with a clear winner and no evidence of fraud, but these ultimate sore losers are trying to use bad law to impose their wishes on millions of unwilling victims who didn't agree with them.
While I personally consider LDS to be a fairly loony cult, I admire them for standing up for their beliefs (with little hope of success) and I'd like to believe they'd have done it even if they knew the kind of attack they'd face. John Paul II was admired for the same reason (and I'm no Catholic either.) I'm confident neither would have whined as badly as this had they lost.
Brad
· 1 year ago
Do you admire all organized bigotry, or just the Mormon cult?
pauls101
· 1 year ago
I don't admire any bigotry, organized or otherwise, and nothing I've ever said could be reasonably taken to prove otherwise. That "question," though, if not an intentional troll, exemplifies everything I _don't_ admire in humanity: content free emotional attacks based on distortions, dripping venom for anyone who dares disagree. It also pretty well describes the behavior of the Prop 8 supporters and their campaign of hatred since the election: they have managed to make the Mormons and Catholics, neither of which I have much use for, look good by comparison.
Brad
· 1 year ago
"The way that bitch clawed that guy for attacking her, I felt more sorry for him than for his victim. She was vicious and evil, I think she took out his eye. She's just horrible. Someone go help that poor devil."
Jackie Goode
· 1 year ago
Mormonism is what Scientology will become in 100 years. Destroy them both NOW.
Lewis Carroll
· 1 year ago
Wow! I've just read the most recent 100 comments here and all I can say is... what a way for some to fight what they call hate with deeper hate, condemn trickery with more trickery, and show the intolerant greater intolerance. A PR fiasco? I'm now seeing TWO of them.
Brad
· 1 year ago
You hit your head on the nail. If there is one thing I can't tolerate, it's intolerance of intolerance. Bigotry towards bigots. Or coercing the coercers. Or hitting the hitters, tattling on tattlers...
"I am not a man who practices what I preach, because I'm not the sort of man I'm preaching to."
An Atheist
· 1 year ago
What did the Mormons do that's remotely as bad as the losing side in CA, who last I heard is trying to get a court to invalidate the majority of the state who voted against what "everyone" knows is "right." It's bad enough that any court, anywhere, any time, can override (or even touch!) a direct popular election with a clear winner and no evidence of fraud, but these ultimate sore losers are trying to use bad law to impose their wishes on millions of unwilling victims who didn't agree with them. -----
Uh, yes the majority should always win even when they're oppressing the minority. Like whites against blacks in the south! Oh wait, judges are there for a reason...
Love, Checks and balances, love and equality.
pauls101
· 1 year ago
Uh, yes the majority should always win even when they're oppressing the minority. Like whites against blacks in the south! Oh wait, judges are there for a reason... -----
Uh, yes, the majority should always win, even when they're oppressing a minority. Slavery was bad, but not as bad as what happens when random minorities get to decide what is "right" whenever they want (like in Somalia?) It's not a perfect system, but it's the one we have until a few decide the Constitution isn't gay/atheist/vegan enough and ditches that too.
Similar to: neocons got things their way for a long time; now we get to see if they whine as miserably as the liberals did when they lost (because the majority didn't vote the right way) or they support the one that was _elected_, because they were _elected_.
Soundboy_jeff_meanie
· 1 year ago
Last time I checked, Somalia wasn't subject to US constitutional law.
the funny thing is, the neocons whined when they got their way... why should they be any different now?
eclare
· 1 year ago
I suggest you do a little bit of historical research before you start spouting off on political philosophy. We've never had simple majority rule in this country for the obvious reason that it leads to extreme badness for those who are at all different from the norm.
LuLu
· 1 year ago
What a ridiculous article! The gays in California have "equal rights" in California under Family Code 297.5. I live in California and believe that all this ridiculous hoopla is about gays enjoying victimizing themselves. Initially I was undecided about Prop 8, and tried to get opinions on each side of the issue. I was not impressed with the "tolerance" nor the knowledge of the anti prop 8 people here; they seemed interested only in name calling, yelling and flipping the bird to anyone who didn't agree with them. I have since lost respect for the anti prop 8 peope and their cause.
gwyneth
· 1 year ago
Okay, but how do they have equal rights if the constitution says that the only union that the state recognizes is marriage and then another law banning them to marry which is already defined as a civil right?
Explain that to me, because I don't see your arguement other than it's "hoopla" The constitution is "hoopla" to you? Wow, that's interesting. It seems like you don't really get it and haven't been listening. If you put your listening ears on then you'd understand this very basic tenent our country was built on.
LuLu
· 1 year ago
Love ya Athiest. Your comment is the only one I read that is reasonable.
LuLu
· 1 year ago
Love ya too Lewis Carroll. O.K. I'm out of here.
Ben
· 1 year ago
Majority rules is not and never has been an appropriate way to rule over civil rights in this country. If it was, we would still have slavery, we wouldn't be able to marry outside of our race, and women would not be allowed to take jobs or make their own decisions about their lives.
Brad
· 1 year ago
Yes, but the bigots are still waiting to read about the negatives you were going to speak about regarding majority rule that make it inappropriate..
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 1 year ago
Wow. I missed this thread yesterday. I was just scrolling down all the comments. My god there sure are a lotta trolls in here on this issue. Regardless of which Jeebus-Cult you wanna quote or adhere to or follow...really does not matter and throw in Orthodox Judaism, to boot...this all boils down to Leviticus 20:19. That man lie with man stuff. Fine with us queers. Let's follow Leviticus. BUT...you also have to stop eating shellfish and pork; you MUST stone your unruly children to death; you must stone to death your unemployed neighbor; you must stone to death a woman who enters church during her period; you must stone to death a farmer who plants the same crop twice in the same field; and my all time fave which hits just about all of us on any given day...stone to death anyone wearing TWO kinds of fabric.
In other words, Leviticus is absurd in the extreme. Isn't homophobia really about the fear men have of anal penetration? Historically that's all it has ever been about. Vanquished armies were sodomized by the victors. And so on.
Get over it, Helen. Eventually a Supreme Court is going to see that this is purely an issue of equal rights and civil rights.
Ah and homosexuals are not going away. They've always been with us. The only difference is that we no longer will let the breeder classes keep us hidden.
kareema
· 1 year ago
Well said. I've always found it amazing how people pick and choose when it comes to quoting the Bible.
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 1 year ago
If they wanna live Levitical law, then live all of Them.
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 1 year ago
I teach at a Conservative Jewish day school, although I am not Jewish. (Conservative Judaism is really moderate Judaism..covenantal in keeping the traditions...but not Orthodox which is extreme rightwing.) I've had some fascinating discussions with our campus Rabbi about Leviticus. (I am very out at school but not to my students although most of them know anyway.) Most of the laws were thrown out by the Rabbincal Talmudic councils centuries ago. Many of the laws were retained and with very good reason: Kosher is an extremely healthful diet; keeping Shabbat (the Sabbath) where you do NO WORK at all is looking more and more appealing to me in this very busy world; learning and studying Hebrew all your life means you read the texts in the original language and not some Baptist bible thumping mistranslation into English...and so on. The best one is that Jews invented "spring cleaning"...for Passover, you go through the house and throw out tons of stuff and make it sparkle! But much of Leviticus is actually a hoot! My favorite is the wearing of two fabrics...what the hell was that about? Probably some weaver in ancient Israel got pissed off because his competition was horning in on his business and he had the ear of some scribe...who knows? The other one, which hits every Christian right in the gut, is that their women may not attend church during their periods. In other words, Leviticus is a joke in modern life.
For those of you truly agnostic Protestants out there...check out Judaism. It's very spiritual, endlessly fascinating to learn, and fills the gaps neatly for you. I am sorta kinda sorta heading to conversion slowly as I have fallen deeply in love with Jewish tradition and faith, merely by being around it.
therepguy
· 1 year ago
You think...
The fact is they haven't seen anything yet!
site_reader
· 1 year ago
Fix your error on Mormon's believing that Jesus married his mother. You don't know what you're talking about.
When it comes right down to it - Mormon's don't care what others think about them. Mormons have been persecuted against for 150 years and pushed from State to State. They have become a huge force despite this persecution. Their mantra is to "Live in the World but not of it". They live for the most part isolated in their own unique social groups.
All the Mormon's have done is draw a line in the sand as to where they stand on gay married. How does Gay marriage do anything of value for society? It's like little kids playing dress-up with their parents clothes. Gays can talk about true love and romance all they want but it's just a shell for real thing and it's true purpose which is raising children in a safe and normal environment to propagate the species. duh!?
Sean
· 1 year ago
And you know this because of your own gay relationships? Ohhh... you're just judging something you have no understanding of, much like what you are accusing others of. Nice.
By the way, take out the word Mormon and put in the word scientologist in your first paragraph, and it works, except, scientologists aren't trying to amend state constitutions to deny rights to a segment of the population. I don't care what crazy ass things either of you choose to believe as long as you don't force it on other people.
I'm hoping one of your prophets has a "revelation" again just like they did when it was no longer legally viable to discriminate against black folks.
cheers
Eric
· 1 year ago
Couple of points:
We aren't a Democracy. We are a Republic. Therefore, it is not simply a case of the will of the majority winning out over the minority, neither is our government responible for protecting the minority from the majority. What counts, in our Republic, is the right of the Individual. The analogy that is my favorite is this:
"In a democracy, two wolves and a sheep are in the room, and everybody votes on what's for dinner. In America, the sheep has a gun."
The responsibility of the courts in this situation isn't going to be just to figure out what is best for the minority that feels left out, but also how to enforce the will of all the Individuals who have declared their preference. The ones who felt powerless in the first place, and so placed the measure up on the ballot--and won.
Second point, for all those sneering that these types of "defense of marriage" propositions are useless because 50% of marriages end in divorce, consider this: The statistics do not take into account marriages which really do last. They include the "serial marriages" from the likes of Larry King and Elizabeth Taylor. Take such people out of the equation, and up to 75-80% of marriages stay intact.
kareema
· 1 year ago
If you want to raise children in a safe environment (and you can't tell me many of "normal" marriages give kids that, not with a 50% divorce rate), then you'll be ecstatic to learn that Florida has ruled the law banning gays from adopting kids as unconstitutional. The AMA, APA, and AAP (American Academy of Pediatrics) all support same-sex couples adopting kids, saying "It is clear that sexual orientation is not a predictor of a person's ability to parent." So tell the kids adopted by gays in a warm, loving environment that it's a shell of the real thing. And make sure to tell the kids stuck in the middle of half the marriages in the US that are tanking that their situation is safe and normal.
Kenny
· 1 year ago
Yup, they were "pushed from state to state" and "persecuted" because they had a form of marriage that wasn't considered normal by society. Hypocrites.
gwyneth
· 1 year ago
They haven't been persecuted. What they've done is start forcing their belief system down everybody's throat and walking around like their better than everybody and then they got run off by an angry mob who didn't want them settling there.
' Joseph Smith (Mormon prophet) started preaching "free agency"; everyone was free to choose whether or not to be on the side of the Lord (be a Mormon) or if not, then you were on the side of wickedness. You are entirely free to choose but, woe to the person who decided "wrong".' - Jon Krakauer, Under The Banner of Heaven
That's exactly why townspeople chased them out of Missouri. 'In 1836 the Missouri legislature in an attempt to relocate the Saints in a place far far away designated Caldwell County for the Mormon settlement." It was after this that Joseph assembled many followers and made a speech, he said and I quote, "I am to this generation a second Mohammad (there's Islam again!) whose motto in peace was "the Quran or the sword", and so I shall be the same "The Book of Mormon or the Sword". - Jon Krakauer, Under the Banner of Heaven.
They've always had this history. They were persecuted because they were scary and they participated in raids and were the victim of a raid on their settlement and got kicked out of the State.
And, you don't get to judge anyone else's marriage. Mormons and the religious right need to concentrate on your own business and stop interfering with the free choices that other people can make in a free country.
cyberczar
· 1 year ago
While I am saddened that Prop 8 passed in California, and Proposition 2 in Florida, and 102 (I think) in Arizona, I am grateful now that America's eyes have been opened to the true nature of Mormons and Mormonism in general.
That cult is comprised of some of the worst hypocritical, hate mongering, egotistical, and sanctimonious individuals who distort morality and reason, all in the name of Jesus Christ.
As a gay man who has been in a monogamous relationship with his partner for coming on 8 years now, I would love to have society legally recognize my relationship.
Until then, I'll continue to choose to whom I spend my money and if I have any option or say in the matter it will not be towards any Mormon or any Mormon owned or controlled Company or Service.
Mormons can go frak themselves.
That reminds me, I need to send off that paperwork to the IRS requesting that the IRS rescind the CoJCoLDS lose its tax-exempt status.
VXX
· 1 year ago
Marriage is for propagating the species???
Er..okay then. From now on, every couple who wants to marry must take a mandatory fertility test, and if you fail, no marriage for you.
And after marriage, if you do not produce offspring within 2 years, your marriage will be no longer valid.
p.s. Do not forget that the book of mormon teaches that people(angels?) who had turned against god were born with dark skin. They used to tell that Black people were sinners until a couple of decaes ago, when just after the victory of the civil rights movement, the mormon leader had a 'revelation' that said Black people were not sinners after all.
site_reader
· 1 year ago
VXX, no, like the author of this lame article you need to get your doctrine right if you are going to mention it. Mormon's do Not believe that Blacks turned against God - they believe that there was a war in the pre-existence (before earth) and that there were two plans presented in preparation for us to recieve our bodies. God presented one plan and Satan the other. 1/3 of the spirits there chose not to follow God's plan and these angels left with Satan. For these fallen angels the risk of not being able to return to live with God and return back to their current spiritual estate was too great and so they opted for Satan's plan. To a certain extent Mormon's believe in karma - that is - you come into this world and are born into a family based on your decisions before you came into this world and in some circles in Mormon doctrine they believe that you actually chose your parents and siblings before you came to this world. Mormon doctrine teaches that some in the pre-existence were more valiant and fought harder for God and Jesus' plan which was to let us come to earth and have our freedom to choose - regardless of the consequences - getting a physical body was that important. Mormon doctrine teaches that those born into less favorable conditions are born into them based on these decisions in the pre-existence. Being Black used to be more associated with this thinking as well as early scriptural references to the "mark of cain" in the bible. Maybe you are thinking of the issue of Blacks holding the Priesthood.
gwyneth
· 1 year ago
The specifics although rendered slightly differently in written interpretation still has the same meaning, which is that Mormons believed that black people had the mark of cain. And, native american indians are still lamanites. Some of their doctrine almost seems to have an Islamic feel to it, so I agree on the "karma" issue but it's more in tuned with a reincarnation theory having an eastern ring to it. It's basically a hodgepodge of a bunch of different theories. Regardless, it's not legal in a free country to stone your wife even if you know verbatim what the doctrine is that allows it or how much you believe the book is a true work of the people at that time. The same for bigotry in a country with equal rights. That's just the way it is.
Dixie
· 1 year ago
Magic Underpants Inc. (aka the Mormon Church) and Pedophilia Inc. (aka the Catholic Church) were the key forces behind prop 8. Don't these people have the brains to understand that their religious beliefs have no place in the constitution? Keep their holy books - that is, the Ancient Book of Jewish Fairy Tales(aka the Bible) and the Book of Morons to themselves. And yes, we already know your message: "if you don't eat sleep drink talk fuck work etc according to the whims of your loving god, he's going to throw you into a lake of fire for eternity(and he does that with all the love in the world)".
after the prop 8 campaign, i'd rather do lsd than lds.
James McConnell
· 1 year ago
That's not the half of it, John. The other half is this: If Mormons would use the political process and the government gun to impose their religious beliefs in CA, would a Mormon office holder do likewise, even if he claimed he would not? Given the evidence, he could not be trusted in this regard. In 1960, JFK stated he would not be influenced by his religion and the public believed it because the catholic Church accepted separaion of Church and State. But not anymore. THis is a powerful argument against Mormon and Catholic candidates and office holders, including Mittney and Reid. My question would be how often had Reid "not found" enough votes to support progressive legislation, or to prevent punitive legislation and how often is that because it was due to his beliefs or a desire not to be criticised by the Elders of Mormon?
horus
· 1 year ago
don't leave out the Catholics everybody. they are more insidious than even the Mormons. the Catholics have set up the church here in the US as separate entities that are much harder to target legally. they are standing in back of the stupid Morons to let them take the majority of the heat..
redneckliberalinTX
· 1 year ago
yeah, and there are 3 catholic males on the Supreme Court OMG that is so creepy and scary! Get them and the nazi boy Pope out of our politics
Brent
· 1 year ago
John, I am an exmormon. I was a missionary and leader of a congregation. I know mormon doctrine quite well. your comment:
"rules which include accepting Jesus as a polygamist who married his mother "
is plain false, mormons don't teach (even in their older embarassing books) that Jesus was a polygamist and certainly not married to his mother. Spreading mis-information is a discredit to you. On everythng else you said, I agree 100%.
Brent
MoronHater
· 1 year ago
I am keeping a bucket of paint near the door. Every year, without fail, I get a knock on my door by members of the Moron Church. Next time, they are getting paint thrown on them.
I'll deal with whatever repercussions result, it's too good an idea to let pass.
h8bigots
· 1 year ago
The next time I see a mormon, I'll show it what hatred looks like.
nikolai
· 1 year ago
Organized religion is general is crap! White Southern Baptists are supposedly the closest to the New Testament, yet they preach hatred against gays etc, and tell you how to vote (republican, or course). The Catholic church does not tithe per se, but rather does a volume business often taking TWO collections per mass all the while preaching to their congregations the evils of birth control, and *GASP* a b o r t * o n! The pope orders poor Latin American familes with 14 children to stay away from the pill and even condoms for chrissake, and they obey, and keep breeding and having children they can't feed who go on to do exactly the same and the Catholic church eats up their offerings every Sunday and spits out the bones. The Mormon church is largely a business with a weird set of doctrines and fanatical leadership. Most Mormon folks are ok, but there are those few who stink up the whole bunch, just like any church or organization for that matter. BTW, if you don't like the Mormons, stay away from Masonry.
h8hypocrisy
· 1 year ago
what the hell kind of comment is that? If you don't like mormons, stay away from Masonry- I say, over organized religions, YOU are crap. generalizing Anything only shows how ignorant and prejudice you are- and the same for the stupid comment that follows by "h8bigots". Bigot Defnition: a prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from their own or intolerant of people of different ethnicity, race, or class- Can we say HYPOCRITE
Eric
· 1 year ago
Um . . . Mormons don't believe Jesus married his mother. They don't teach that He was married at all. The only way they teach He was the "brother of satan" is in the context that we are ALL children of God (and that is everyone, we are all God's children) who lived with Him before we were born. Satan wasn't going to Preschool in Jerusalem with Jesus or anything. Satan was cast out of heaven before any of us got here (Revelations 12) just like every other Western church teaches.
cory
· 1 year ago
Actually the Mormons believe that God (the one that they pray to) is special because he allowed people on this planet to choose their religion as opposed to being forced to worship him like the other gods do. (in the Mormon religion if you are a perfect Mormon you go to the top level of heaven and get to become a god of your own planet and have your own worshipers) Satan, God's brother didn't like this plan and decided to pick a fight. So he and all his followers were kicked out of heaven to hell. Interestingly enough no one goes to hell in the morman religion unless you actually know 100% that Jesus and God are true and you flat out deny them. As you can see, they are quite different from most other Christian religions. They also believed that after Jesus died he appeared in America and preached to two tribes of Native Americans there, which is where they get their extra book The Book of Mormon. Not spouting off at the hip here, I grew up in Utah. (yes, you can laugh now.)
gwyneth
· 1 year ago
Don't they have text that Joseph Smith wrote about the sanctity of plural marriage? It doesn't matter what they believe anyway, that's not the issue. The issue is that this is a free country so they get to believe their religion but they don't want to extend that courtesy of free choice without having civil right taken away to the rest of the community. That's why they make their neighbors so angry! And, then they wonder why people don't like them.... gee I wonder!
gwyneth
· 1 year ago
Thier teaching and theology are patriarchal and lean towards judging your neighbor all the time.
cult! creepy! please just stay in Utah! You killed all the "unrepentant savages" that resisted you then, and we think you would do it to the rest of us
gwyneth
· 1 year ago
A lot of us don't appreciate them in Utah! All they do is spill into other states, like what just happened. In the year 2030 Mormons will no longer be the majority in Utah, and it will be about time! Mormonism in particular serves a root psychological need for people who have a want to feel like their better than anyone else... that's what the whole thing is based on hence; different levels of heaven etc.
We didn't let other religious sects take over States so I don't see a reason why they should even get Utah in my opinion.
notfromthere
· 1 year ago
This election campaign has been a wonderful cleansing process for our country---all of the Emperors have been seen without their clothing, i. e. Washington, Wall Street, the CEO's, Boards of Directors, and the preachers of hatred (with their smiles of conscienceless hypocrisy). The turkeys have come home to roost. Our Country will be much better for it.
fm
· 1 year ago
TAX, TAX, TAX, ANY AND ALL RELIGIOUS GROUPS THAT GET INVOLVED IN ANY AND ALL POLITICAL ISSUES, DEBATES, ELECTIONS AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON AND IN ANY MANNER INFLUENCE, ENCOURAGE, SUGGEST AND IN ANY MANNER OF SPEAKING AND COMMUNICATION OF ANY KIND, MENTION POLITICAL ISSUES TO THEIR MEMBERSHIP AND OR REQUEST THEIR INVOLVEMENT AND OR DONATIONS FOR CAUSE.
L T
· 1 year ago
And every other non-profit that does the same? So when the Red Cross lobbies for better disaster response, when the American Lung Association lobbies for more cancer research dollars from the federal government, we should revoke their non-profit status?
Jtex
· 1 year ago
The Gay's need to understand that the the people of CA have voted and the Vote was yes on Prop. 8. The vote's in CA are the ones that vote and they did. It was yes on prop 8. So please respect the votes. If it was the other way the Gay's would won't the same respect. CA votes yes on prop 8.
L T
· 1 year ago
Maybe the grossest misrepresentation of Mormon doctrine I've ever seen. Impressive!
Susan
· 1 year ago
I agree, what a bunch of garbage, as a Mormon I think some people better check there facts first before they make statements like I have just read. Do really think people live like that come on.
scytherius
· 1 year ago
Having been a Bishop, Stake President and Regional Rep (among other callings) before I left the Church (no I wasn't kicked out, I left of my own volition), the following, while stated harshly, is not a complete misrepresentation of Mormon Docrtine:
"(rules which include accepting Jesus as a polygamist who married his mother and was the brother of Satan, rules which include being forced to convert to Mormonism against your will),
It is taught that Jesus was/is a polygamist who was the brother of Satan who married Mary Magdalene (not his mother). baptisms for the Dead are performed in the hopes that the dead will convert to Mormonism. And, finally, it is taught that all who do not accept this (and other doctrine called the "fullness of the Gospel") will not be allowed to enter the highest heaven or Celestial Kingdom.
So when Mormons post that their doctrine is totally misrepresented, either they don't know the doctrine or they are just tossing out the straw man for argument. Now members are encouraged to NOT disseminate much of this doctrine as it is believed that it will turn people off due to it's radical nature. (It's called give em milk before meat).
However, the Mormons who whine about being persecuted totally miss the point. Your Church, and most of you, donated your time, talents and money to making sure Prop 8 passed. You and the Church did this because you think homosexuality is a sin. And because you think it is a sin, you believe that you have the right and duty to take away a fundamental constitutional right (the CA SCt ruled this was a fundamental constitutional right under the constitution). Not only do you think your religious beliefs trump the personal rights of others, you will go from state to state to spread your bigotry.
What catches them by surprise is that we have now loeared to fight back against bullies. So hiding behind "you are being mean to us" is top of my list of things I don't care about. You wanna fight and take away the rights of others? So be it. We will fight back . . . and hard. And if it brings disrepute upon you and your Church . . . well . .. that's just too damned bad. You don't like it, stay out of it next time. Because you can best believe you people would go bat shit if we Californians put on the ballot a Prop that took away your right to worship . . . another fundamental right.
All Comments
Hopefully, they ain't seen nothin' yet.
YES!!!!
Thanks for a great post as usual, John!
They are all just as guilty.
Dear Lord,
..Save us from the preachers !
Amen.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,705265804...
December 1, 2008
Thomas S. Monson
President and Prophet
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
50 E. North Temple Drive
Salt Lake City, UT 84150
Dear President Monson:
As an Elder, and a father of two young sons, the youngest of whom is currently serving his mission in Stockholm, Sweden, I am writing to call you and the church to repentance. This may come as a surprise and a shock to be called to repent.
But, the church has sinned against those who are gay, lesbian or transgendered for too long. This sin against your gay and lesbian children has led to the destruction of faith; the destruction of families; to countless suicides. This has led to the loss of your mission to love your neighbor as yourself.
I am sending this on World AIDS day as well. My cousin died from AIDS in 1984 in Provo, Utah. She got AIDS from a blood transfusion during the delivery of her fifth child. She was the first person to die of AIDS in Utah. And, in honor of all of those we have lost along the way and the journey her death led me to in medicine to serving those most despised among us I send this letter on this important day.
I also with the power of my Melchizedek priesthood still intact at this point, I ceremoniously shake the dust off of my feet. I call upon the heavens to rain down the power of Heaven to bring you and your people to their knees in sincere repentance for the pain you have caused and continue to cause against the outcast and unwanted and their families dealing with this reality.
I have read the scriptures all of my life. I love my Savior. I try every day to live His example. Not once would he have entered a political fight against an unwanted minority and ignored what was the real trouble He was called to fight: ignorance, hatred, and poverty.
The traditional family is hurting. But it is not because there happen to be Lesbian and Gay’s in the world. No, the family is hurting because of divorce, abuse, addiction, poverty, gambling, etc. These are the true enemies of the family today. Yet, you have gambled the church’s growth and mission on institutionalizing discrimination against your gay and lesbian children and those like them in your community and in this world.
To sin is to deny your Lord. His mission was to call the world to repent. It was not to cause pain to the lowly and already hurting.
Shame on you, and shame on my people, the Mormons. And, I say this out of a complicated love that I feel for you and the Church.
During my years at BYU and my medical training at the University of Utah I would count the number of unexplained deaths in the Salt Lake newspapers of young men and women who died. Weekly the numbers piled higher and higher. The suicide rates of these many youth became one of the pains of my life and the ongoing silence of the church—now twenty years and counting is nearly as bad.
The reality of growing up gay in a faith that denies and ignores this pain has led me to the realization that my people do not love Christ, nor do they serve him. They serve a bureaucracy and organization. But, they have lost the work of the Lord somewhere along the way.
I am sorry for the pain that my actions today will cause my sons and my mother. But, I choose to love them even though they have repeatedly chosen their church over our relationship. I will continue to work for justice and love in the world to heal pain rather than cause it.
I beg you to get on your knees and speak your forgiveness to your lesbian, gay and transgendered children and their families.
Sincerely,
Robert Killian, MD/MPH
Seattle, WA
Thank you Dr. Killan for your letter. It was very moving. You reminded me of something Mother Teresa once said, and I paraphrase, "...do not worry about what others may think, it is always between you and your creator, never between you and other people."
Best of luck to you, and may God bless your efforts.
I suppose I could ask them if they have ever had any impure thoughts for each other and watch as they blush.
"Elder Jason, are you trying to tell me that during all that time you have ridden your bicycle you never thought to yourself, "Gee, Elder Brett sure has a cute butt?".
I bet they take me off their rotation.
Before you go and slander, I think it would be wise to get your "FACTS STRAIGHT"
THE FACTS:
1. Mormons make up only 2% of the population of California. There are approximately 750,000 LDS out of a total population of approximately 36 million.
2. If one estimates that 250,000 LDS are registered voters (the rest being children), then out of a total of 5,661,583 yes votes, LDS voters made up 4.4% of the Yes vote and 2.3% of the total Proposition 8 vote (11,050,301).
3. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) donated no money to the Yes on 8 campaign (except for a nominal, and legal, in-kind donation of $2,078.97, to cover the travel expenses of leaders coming from Utah for a meeting). Individual members of the Church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts and, exercising their constitutional right to free speech, donated whatever they felt like donating.
4. The No on 8 campaign raised more money than the Yes on 8 campaign. Unofficial estimates put No on 8 at $38 million and Yes on 8 at $36 million, making it the most expensive non-presidential election in the country.
5. Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. The No on 8 supporters have insisted that the Yes on 8 messaging is based on lies. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported.
6. The majority of our friends and neighbors voted Yes on 8. Los Angeles County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Ventura County voted in favor of Proposition 8. San Diego County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Orange County voted in favor of Proposition 8. San Luis Obispo County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Sacramento County voted in favor of Proposition 8. Fresno County voted in favor of Proposition 8. And the list goes on and on: Merced, San Bernardino, Riverside, Mariposa, Tulare, Imperial, etc.
7. African Americans overwhelmingly supported Yes on 8. Exit polls show that 70% of Black voters chose Yes on 8. This was interesting because the majority of these voters voted for President-elect Obama. No on 8 supporters had assumed that Obama voters would vote No on 8.
8. The majority of Latino voters voted Yes on 8. Exit polls show that the majority of Latinos supported Yes on 8 and cited religious beliefs (assumed to be primarily Catholic).
9. The Yes on 8 coalition was a broad spectrum of religious organizations. Catholics, Evangelicals, Protestants, Orthodox Jews, Muslims - all supported Yes on 8. It is estimated that there are 10 million Catholics and 10 million Protestants in California. Mormons were a tiny fraction of the population represented by Yes on 8 coalition members.
10. Though the Church urged its members to "do all [they] can to support the proposed constitutional amendment," not all Mormons voted in favor of Proposition 8. Our faith accords that each person be allowed to choose for him or her self. Church leaders have asked members to treat other members with "civility, respect and love," despite their differing views.
11. The Church did not violate the principal of separation of church and state. This principle is derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, although it has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court in recent years. The LDS Church is under no obligation to refrain from participating in the political process, to the extent permitted by law. U.S. election law is very clear that Churches may not endorse candidates, but may support issues. The Church has always been very careful on this matter and occasionally (not often) chooses to support causes that it feels to be of a moral nature.
12. Supporters of Proposition 8 did exactly what the Constitution provides for all citizens: they exercised their First Amendment rights to speak out on an issue that concerned them, make contributions to a cause that they support, and then vote in the regular electoral process. For the most part, this seems to have been done in an open, fair, and civil way. Opponents of 8 have accused supporters of being bigots, liars, and worse. The fact is, we simply did what Americans do - we spoke up, we campaigned, and we voted.
1) The white talking salamander
2) Smith and Young's child brides.
3) The doctrine that all Mormon men will be gods of their own planets.
4) The doctrine that people of African descent bear the "Mark of Cain"
5) Magic underware.
6) The fact that the Mormon Church is a large corporate cult commanding empires such as Marriott and American Express.
7) The fact that the Marriott Corp makes a fortune on the porn industry by providing hardcore materials in their establishments.
And the list goes on and on and on!
2. Again not the issue
3. The Mormon church is being investigated for fraud by not reporting all their in-kind donations. Also, you seem to want to lessen the impact of in-kind donations as if some how they were less than cash donation. A donation is a donation.
4. What is your point here?
5. The advertising messages were based upon half-truths, non-California case law and misrepresentation. Some of it was blatant lies -- such as 2nd graders were going to be taught gay marriage in schools.
6. If the Majority of voters wanted to send Mormons to prison camps, would that make it alright?
7. Why are Mormons with their racist past continually try to blame the passage on blacks? Pointing fingers? Actually, the exit poll the 70% figure is based upon some faulty research. Younger blacks voted against prop 8 and older blacks voted for.
8. A slight majority of Hispanics. However, Asians voted against Prop 8. Again, why the focus on minorities? Why the racism and scapegoating?
9. Please state specific Jewish or Muslim groups that gave or were active in the Yes on 8 campaign. I haven't found any. Also, an internal document on wiki-leaks showed that Mormons were pretty much doing all the precinct walking. The church leaders involved with the Yes on 8 campaign were basically bemoaning that they are going to have to do the campaign work all by themselves.
10. Anyone who has ever been a Mormon knows that this statement is a lie. The President of the Church, a man who is sustained as a Prophet with direct communication with God and speaks for God told the members to give all they can. You aren't allowed to second guess the Prophet. Many members took that statement as a commandment to do everything in their power to stop Prop 8. Why the lying about Mormon social norms? As for the civility love and respect, we all know that's a lie after 8 Mormons who were part of a Tongan ward in Los Angeles physically beat a group of lesbians at the end of the LA Temple protest send 7 to the hospital. The attack was shown on CBS 2 News that night. Civility? Words-- mere words.
11. Stop trying to argue law when you have no clue what you are talking about.
12. Tyranny of the majority is the reason we have a representative form of government, not a direct democracy. You shouldn't be able to vote other people's rights away. If you don't like being called a bigot -- then stop being a bigot. You don't like your lies being exposed, then stop lying. For a group quotes the constitution when they trashed the judicial branch, I find it ironic that they only want the constitution to work in their favor only.
Individual members of the Church were encouraged to support the Yes on 8 efforts
Yes, thank you for reiterating the point, which is that the Mormon Church bankrolled hate and bigotry.
Go put your magic underwear on your head.
Those are outright lies. You really need to check your facts before you go spewing garbage like that. You obviously have been reading some of the more imaginative anti-mormon literature. That stuff is full of lies. Mormon's don't believe any of that. They do believe that the family is a sacred union, not just in this life, but also in the life to come. They believe familes are eternal unions ordained by God. They believe that sex outside of marraige is wrong whether you are homosexual or heterosexual. They believe in being honest and standing for what they believe is right.
Please don't spread lies. It only spreads bigotry, hate and makes this difficult situation more difficult.
Obvious lie, see Proposition 8.
They believe in being honest
Obvious lie, see ad campaign for Proposition 8.
Please don't spread lies.
Please show how they are lies. You have nothing but assertions, while John has been posting links for weeks. The Church of LDS has shown by its actions to be run by anti-family hateful bigots who fund and spread lies to get what they want. Arguing over minutiae won't change that.
Hey Bozo, watch where the fuck you're casting that stone!
Jake - get a job; or read more.
You can't have sex outside of marriage, but we don't want gays to get married so they can't have sex.
Nuff said.
ma perche' continui a mistificare gli insegnamenti della Chiesa mormone? Lo sai benissimo che la Chiesa non insegna espressamente o implicitamente che Gesu' ha sposato sua madre. Va bene criticare un confessione religiosa per il suo credo ma dire falsita' al riguardo e' intelletualmente disonesto.
"Brigham Young is Mormon for "Bring them young". He liked those child brides. Between the Mormon yen for underage girls, and the Catholic priests need to molest underage boys, it makes you wonder why so many homophobic institutions are full of pedophiles!!!
lolwut? I'm no fan of the LDS church's handling of this situation, but spreading lies is spreading lies. If they did it to you, you'd be pissed. So check the facts. According to LDS doctrine, Jesus never married.
Regarding being forced to convert against your will, I'll assume you mean the idea of "baptisms for the dead" which is a weird practice to be sure, but they believe that it doesn't force your conversion, but gives you some kind of opportunity to in the after-life. Beats being forced to hell if you don't do it in this life imo, but it's still disconcerting.
Actually I was around then. And I supported them. And I think we need them back now, but in much, much larger numbers throughout the US.
Well, ta-ta. Till later.
Not only that, but how is "You must be a skulking Mormon" any sort of defense against falsehoods? Let's turn this scenario around. Let's say you were on some religious website and saw comments about the LGBTQ community that were false. You stated that those comments were false and then someone just accused you of being a "skulking gay."
Isn't this the exact kind of discussion we want to get away from?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_meadows_m...
1-888-537-6600 Toll Free
Order a free book of Moron at
http://www.mormon.org/bookofmormon
"What are you wearing??..... [place heavy breathing here]"
Call them up and find out if it is just a call center hired out by the mormons, but not really run by mormon church members.
Everyone order the BOM, they make great kindling in your fireplace for those cold winter's night. Maybe order 6.
They will probably ask you if you want to missionaries to come and visit you. I would suggest you say yes.
When the missionaries arrive, let them talk and make their presentation because every minute they spend with you is a minute they aren't talking with a potential convert. Then close the meeting with "As much as I would like to join your church, I can't because of the your church's support of Proposition 8, but thanks for the visit." And show them the door.
If everyone did this -- the Mormon church's growth would stop.
By SUZANNE SATALINE
A federal appeals court has permitted a lawsuit over alleged sexual abuse to proceed against the Vatican, creating potential liability for the seat of the Roman Catholic faith for the activities of Catholic clergy in the U.S. Monday's ruling, issued by the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Cincinnati, marks the first time a court at so high a level has recognized that the Vatican could be liable for the negligence in sexual-abuse cases brought in the U.S.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122756420187954...
-- Anne Nicol Gaylor
But a close reading of the court's one-page order suggests that gay-rights advocates may have lost a usually predictable ally in their effort to overturn Proposition 8. "It definitely isn't a good sign," said UCLA Law Professor Brad Sears, an expert on sexual-orientation law.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-prop8-c...
But, as a former judge, I know all too well that rulings can surprise you.
... they might ask all the gay activists to attend a meeting to mend fences.... in Mountain Meadows.
circle the wagons and bring ammo.
I thought this might be a good forum to announce that a indie feature film, financed by a Los Angeles based production company, is in pre-production entitled THE BOY WHO COULDN'T SAY NO, a coming of age dramedy (in the vein of American Beauty, Little Miss Sunshine & Secretary) The story of Jake Wilson, a 19 year old Mormon virgin who falls in love with an ex-dominatrix, Becky Lewis. Unknown to Jake, Becky is in serious debt and is forced to blackmail him for his Mission savings. This sets in motion a coming-of-age journey where Jake discovers the strength to follow his own path. The story is an honest look at the challenges we face growing up as teenagers and adults - trying to find our way while coming to accept ourselves and others for who they are.
Anyone who is interested in knowning more or getting involved with the production can contact the producers via email - talent_at_norestrictionsent_dot_com
considering what they're trying to do to us, wouldn't it be symbolic??
It's just a few miles across the Arizona border in SW Utah. Make it a bag lunch day trip across from AZ, complete with a few hundred people, cameras and a gay-friendly reporter in tow--just enough to get it in the news.
Girl Scouts haven't enjoyed similar status, however. Too much emphasis on girls being self-reliant and strong. The Mormons pretty much ignore Girl Scouts.
List of Mormon owned or run business to boycott.
Just think of all the millions and millions of dollars that are funneled into the Mormon Cult so that they may continue their campaigns of hate.
Maybe the IRS will have some success in shutting down the Mormon Cult and those that provide for their slush funds.
never see another dime from my businesses. Rational argument is
a waste of time. Their brains have not only been washed, but dry cleaned.
The only way to impact their behavior is to mess with their cash.
Tell your friends.
I am going to show them the exact same amount of dignity, love and respect that they have shown us. I shall relish the moment.
As a former Mormon and presently as the Aunt of two young men now serving as missionaries for the Mormon church, I can tell you that about 90% of them are still in their teens (19 their average age) and half-scared when they ring a doorbell. What they can say and/or respond to what you might say is tightly scripted and they cannot deviate from their script. All of their actions while on their mission are rigidly controlled, including their every move when not on the streets. Considering that they would be severely criticized if they did not go on their rite-of-passage mission - for which they brainwashed from birth and for which they and their families do not receive any compensation from the church and this in most instances mean they are, at least at times, barely scraping together money for food - they aren't necessarily there of their own free will.
Do with them what you will, but also keep in mind their circumstances. Sometimes just offering them a sandwich or a dinner creates an atmosphere that makes them more open to hear what you have to say and what you might teach them, even if it's just a seed of doubt.
Maybe there should be a ballot initiative making it illegal for the Mormons to send these boys out missions?
strap them down with a martini, a plate of good Pate, a Vanity Fair magazine and make them watch all of Michael Moore's movies.
I hadn't thought of this, but, YES!, to our protests against the actions of the Mormon church we could add a coordinated effort of intervention to all the missionaries who show up at our doors. They are tools, but in most cases they are genuine and sweet tools. We can make it risky for the church to send them out, risky in the sense that they may have their brainwashed minds opened.
Soundboy_jeff-meanie (just below),
!BIG LAUGH!
You slay me, in the best possible way.
nothing says "I'm sorry" like a cute mormon missionary on his knees in front of you ;-)
odd how moroni didn't know Aramaic... or even Latin?
you guys have an odd way of baptising posthumously. hitler, for instance, is now a mormon.
I'm thinking the gay community should start taking names from mormon graves... and maybe baptising them into the church of satan or something.
sounds like fun!!
Hows that research in South America going? I heard you still haven't found any evidence at all for any of the people or places portrayed in the book of mormon. Must be rough.
"Californians Against Hate released figures Tuesday showing that $17.67 million was contributed by 59,000 Mormon families since August to groups like Yes on 8. Contributions in support of Prop. 8 total $22.88 million. Additionally, the group reports that Mormons have contributed $6.9 million to pass a a similar law, Proposition 102, in Arizona."
no, it wasn't just the morons... err, mormons. but they were the LARGEST contributors.
In fact, the MORMONS pulled the Catholics/evangelicals INTO THIS BATTLE. why? because the MORMONS always felt that the catholics and evangelicals thought of them as 'cultists' and 'not true christians'.... so, they fought to take away our civil rights to form a bridge with the christian right.
does that make you feel better? not only did they contribute a shitload of the total raised... but they really only did it to shore up relations with other christian hate groups.
however, you should check up on it, the mormons ASKED the catholics/evangelicals to work with them... as I said, trying to form a bond in their hate.
read a bit... and not just Faux New's website.
sorry, I steer clear of cults.
That Mormon Cult home schooling is really shining through.
---
where's my red mark up pen when I need it?
in third grade Mrs. Shannon taught me the difference between your and you're... the worst part of this conversation seems to be the mangling of the English language.
funny, my Husband is English... and he always accuses me of mangling the language.
sorry, 'cuz' is much worse than leaving the second 'i' out of 'aluminium'.
BTW, I am gay... and I AM married.
from the sound of your rantings, I seriously think sexuality shouldn't come into play when it comes to marriage contracts... IQ should.
stupid people shouldn't breed, and if 'breeding' is the only true reason for man/woman only marriage(according to most religious zealots when the 'sanctity' arguement doesn't hold water), there should be an intelligence test prior to the issuance of the license.
because, as I said, stupid people shouldn't breed... it only perpetuates the problem, for the rest of us.
one other observation... it always strikes me as poetic when someone yelling at us for standing up for our rights, can't seem to type coherantly. which goes back to the point I was making above.
the function of a constitution (federal OR state), is to protect the minority from the will of the majority.
this will be overturned, trust me. you don't allow people to vote on the civil rights of an ALREADY CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED CLASS.
THAT is a change in the very basis of the constitution of California, NOT an amendment...
in other words (ignoring the fact that adding prop 8's language to the constituion creates a conflict with the equal protection clause), they need the LEGISLATURE to vote on whether or not it should be on the ballot.
the prop 8 people knew the legislature in California would table the proposition... hell, the California legislature PASSED gay marriage rights TWICE already. so the prop 8 people just went around the legislature, which isn't legal in California.
BTW... where are you getting YOUR info?
what's that line from the Exorcist?? something about sucking cock in hell?
but I digress...
...get educated
This sitemonitor has about had my fill of Barbaricino (and a few other Mormon trolls). If you feel the same way, just say the word...
PAY LAY ALE!
No. More. Tourist. Dollars., Utah. 'm'k?
I am trying to learn about your Church:
1.) Why did Joseph Smyth crowned himself KING?
2.) What happened at Mountain Meadows, on that fateful day when the Mormons murdered 120 innocent men, women and children?
3.) When after the 'proclamation of the end of celestial marriage' (on earth) hundreds of church leaders continued to practice it, in violation of the law, the state constitution and their own GOD?
4.)Why did Mormons killed two state troopers, and then viciously mutilated one of the bodies at Hauns Mill?
5.) Why did the Church extorted 22 million dollars from their membership so they could publish lies and distortions to win a battle which has nothing to do with god or religion, but demoralized and disenfranchised an entire group of Americans?
6.)Why aren't you taking personal responsibility for the acts committed by one of your own, a domestic terrorist that bombed a Salt Lake City landmark building and blew up two innocent people?
Also,
Why did the Mormons denied the priesthood to some men based solely on the color of their skin for more than 24 years after the passage of the Civil Rights Act?
Believe it or not before, in my previous location, I became friend of a gay couple and my wife and I used to go to their little shop even when sometimes was not convenient timewise, they were good people. One of my best friend is gay and that was not a problem for us in terms of friendships we have discussed about homosexuality and Church (he knows the Mormon Church). Even thought we had different opinions on the matter we always respect each other position and feelings. Do you want criticize the Mormon Church for its position on gay marriage? Go for it. Democracy (ballots, blogs, media) and courts are the place to do it. I just have hard time when Church teachings and history are misrepresented. And also when who expresses a different opinion is labeled in a prejudicial way like th Mormons have been by John and some of the people posting here.
Have a good one! Bye
Bigotry, particularly religious bigotry, has all kinds of historical roots. So did racial bigotry, but the law is to protect the minority and enable equal rights for all, even GLBT persons.
How would the church handle genetically ambiguous humans?
Seriously!, or seniors above the age of reproduction getting married? Seniors get married everyday in this nation.
People get divorced, your religious beliefs do not accommodate divorce either. Why do you not fight this political battle on sexuality, too? No gay marriage, no sterile marriages, no divorce. Just put your whole agenda on the bill instead of singling out same sex unions.
And you feel ballots are the place to determine people's rights. So if the rights of Mormons were put on a ballot, you would respect that. So if the tax-exempt status of the Mormon church were put to a vote, you would respect that. If the right for Mormons to go door to door were put to a vote, you would respect that. If the right of Mormons to adopt children were put to a vote, you would respect that. If the right of Mormons to marry were put to a vote, you would respect that.
And you feel that Mormons have simply expressed "a different opinion" on gay marriage. You don't feel that Mormons have actually taken aggressive action to change other people's lives. You don't feel that Mormons were forcing non-believers to conform to a Mormon viewpoint. You don't think that invalidating 18,000 marriages and denying millions the right to marry was actually doing anything. Mormons were just expressing an opinion.
And you feel that Mormons are being treated with prejudice. You don't feel that they have acted out of prejudice.
And you feel that Mormons have been misrepresented. You don't feel that they have misrepresented gay people in a deceptive ad campaign. You feel that Mormons are the victims here.
You're a very interesting man. Bye
Undoubtably, this discussion occured during the 60s... ;)
As I told her, and anyone that would listen, this i not the way of the true America.
There's plenty to hang the mormons with here, why lie to create more rope?
Lying For The Lord refers to the practice of lying to protect the image of and belief in the Mormon religion, a practice which Mormonism itself fosters in various ways. From Joseph Smith's denial of having more than one wife, to polygamous Mormon missionaries telling European investigators that reports about polygamy in Utah were lies put out by "anti-Mormons" and disgruntled ex-members, to Gordon B. Hinckley's dishonest equivocation on national television over Mormon doctrine, Mormonism's history seems replete with examples of lying. Common members see such examples as situations where lying is justified. For the Mormon, loyalty and the welfare of the church are more important than the principle of honesty, and plausible denials and deception by omission are warranted by an opportunity to have the Mormon organization seen in the best possible light."
"Never give the "meat" doctrines. Always give "milk:"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMJvqBq_Qa8
More?
http://trialsofascension.net/mormon/lying.html
Again, I will repeat, we were never taught to lie about anything, but, crazies always love to distorth the facts.
I guess you were outta the loop.
Or you are not so "ex."
Hmmmmm?
Hmmm?
Uniqueness is not allowed in the Mormon church.
Face it. You just don't know what you are talking about. Or, at the least, you weren't much of a Mormon.
True!
In addition, it has rarely (if ever) been popular to be Mormon. That is the problem when you have a firm belief of the truth and societies accepted morals continually degrade. Mormons aren't going to change their outlook on homosexuality whether it is a "PR fiasco" or not. There are more important things than whether all the internet trolls agree with your beliefs. All the inflammatory rhetoric and false implication of Constitutional issues is not going to change that.
As for the "other reasons that the people of California amended their constitution", it comes down to simple fear, ignorance and hate.... all of which, with their dollars and their dishonest ad campaign and their distorted sense of Jesus, the Mormons exploited. Nice work. Jesus must be just as proud as you are. Did Jesus preach against the gays in the Book of Mormon? Because he didn't in the bible. He never said a word about it. But I seem to remember him going on and on and on about love. Remember love?
Of course Mormons would be happy if everyone thought our religion is great and wanted to join (otherwise we would have 10's of thousands of missionaries) but the fact is not everyone is going to and that won't ever change.
You also neatly avoided the issue of an equal/greater amount of money being spent on the "No on Prop 8" side.
No one is asking you to condone anything.
We're telling you to get your religion out of our government.
Turns out I was paying attention.
Well the Mormons used to think polygamy was a revelation from God. Now they dont condone polygamy, (or so they say).
What makes you think God is not going to come through with the revelation that same sex marriage is divine and good? Has God already made this revelation and the Mormon Church is too blind to see that it is true?
how do the mormons condone changing something that God himself said was good? ala, polygamy?
I don't get it, supposedly God himself had as many wives as he could catch... and mormonism was founded on that teaching... and then suddenly *poof!*, they no longer condone polygamy.
I don't get it... all the preaching about Leviticus and all that crap from the catholic/christian evangelicals... and yet, catholics can no longer buy indulgences from the church, and evangelicals seem to miss that 'gay sex' isn't in the BIG 10, but expect to be forgiven for breaking any of those commandments.
why is there always a double-standard from religious fanatics when you compare their lifestyles against their own religious teachings?
if they're judging me by their Bible, why can't I judge THEM by it?
if the only purpose for marriage is procreation, infertile couples and those who don't want children shouldn't be allowed to marry, right?
however, by the laws of this country (and about 99.9% of all others), fertility isn't a qualification for marriage... if they're abiding by the laws, then they're also changing their views BASED on those laws.
Put it this way... the original teaching of momonism was that God colored the 'indifferent' people (black people?) so they'd be recognised... hence, it didn't fit to have black members of the mormon religion because they could never be 'righteous'... and yet, when civil rights laws were passed... eventually they allowed black members into the mormon church.
It would be interesting to hear what a black member of the mormon faith would have to say about this change in their beliefs. By their views, God handed down these laws, how can the mormon church decide "well, he really didn't mean that there couldn't be black members of the church"?
My point I suppose is that infertile couples can adopt or have a surrogate, just like gay couples... it makes no sense for them to believe that God would've cursed "white" people (the supposed children of Christ) with infertility if everyone is supposed to strive to get to heaven via having as many children as possible.
And if the mormon church can accept black people, after changing their veiws because of the laws of this country (and the laws on polygamy)... there are probably infertile members as well.
its very interesting to me that most people of faith, when their faith actually CHANGES its laws to fall in line with those of men, don't recognize the hipocrisy of their religions.
God's laws can be changed when men decide they aren't legal anymore? hipocrisy.
Please give me some citations if I'm wrong.
A revelation may just be around the corner!
So we shall see...
It appears to me that the only things you know about Mormons are the punch lines tossed around in religious conversations. It's very easy to jump on the "hate the Mormons" bandwagon (which is very popular over the past few months), but you lose all credibility when act as a bigot when attacking a group for being bigoted. From your misleading and inaccurate summary of Mormon "rules" it is apparent that you know nothing about LDS theology and use what little tidbits of information you can muster up to fuel your own hate.
I'll fully admit that there are elements of Mormonism that are bizarre. But isn't all religion a bit strange? For example, Moses seeing God in a burning bush, transubstantiation, speaking in tongues, the rapture, etc. I really think there's enough awkward doctrines to go around among all religions.
Well, I'm rambling on way too much now (especially on something I really don't care that much about), so I'll just leave it at this:
1. Do your homework about a group if you're going to attack and ridicule them on doctrinal grounds, so that you don't seem ignorant.
2. You can't effectively fight narrow views with hatred and expect to convince others of anything. You come of as a simple bigot that is no better than those you attack.
My two cents...
There is no question that the Mormon church in California totally mobilized behind this, strongly encouraged members to donate both money and time, and this has led to a real polarizing of LDS members there in regards to this issue. It's been dominating discussion in Mormon wards there in California for months.
So yeah, there are certainly many individuals who are LDS and have a different opinion. But there is also no doubt about where the official position lies. And there is also no doubt that the official church actions the have led many members who (at the church's behest ) have participated in pro-Prop 8 activities, have also led many of these same church members to adopt more polarized anti-gay attitudes.
----
No better than those you attack? One is doing the evil, and the other one is simply unfairly pointing out the group that is doing it.
I can't help but think you're biased -- would you say this to someone who would attack the Nazis with hatred? (lol lost the argument)
'An Atheist' didn't compare mormonism with nazis.
re-read the comment, he was rebuking the arguement... and your response was very rush limbaugh/bill o'reiley-esque.
alas, they have now gone and shown themselves to be rather meddlesome.
what to do?
I know what the french revolutionaries would have said...
What did the Mormons do that's remotely as bad as the losing side in CA, who last I heard is trying to get a court to invalidate the majority of the state who voted against what "everyone" knows is "right." It's bad enough that any court, anywhere, any time, can override (or even touch!) a direct popular election with a clear winner and no evidence of fraud, but these ultimate sore losers are trying to use bad law to impose their wishes on millions of unwilling victims who didn't agree with them.
While I personally consider LDS to be a fairly loony cult, I admire them for standing up for their beliefs (with little hope of success) and I'd like to believe they'd have done it even if they knew the kind of attack they'd face. John Paul II was admired for the same reason (and I'm no Catholic either.) I'm confident neither would have whined as badly as this had they lost.
"I am not a man who practices what I preach, because I'm not the sort of man I'm preaching to."
-----
Uh, yes the majority should always win even when they're oppressing the minority. Like whites against blacks in the south!
Oh wait, judges are there for a reason...
Love,
Checks and balances, love and equality.
Oh wait, judges are there for a reason...
-----
Uh, yes, the majority should always win, even when they're oppressing a minority. Slavery was bad, but not as bad as what happens when random minorities get to decide what is "right" whenever they want (like in Somalia?) It's not a perfect system, but it's the one we have until a few decide the Constitution isn't gay/atheist/vegan enough and ditches that too.
Similar to: neocons got things their way for a long time; now we get to see if they whine as miserably as the liberals did when they lost (because the majority didn't vote the right way) or they support the one that was _elected_, because they were _elected_.
the funny thing is, the neocons whined when they got their way... why should they be any different now?
Explain that to me, because I don't see your arguement other than it's "hoopla" The constitution is "hoopla" to you? Wow, that's interesting. It seems like you don't really get it and haven't been listening. If you put your listening ears on then you'd understand this very basic tenent our country was built on.
In other words, Leviticus is absurd in the extreme. Isn't homophobia really about the fear men have of anal penetration? Historically that's all it has ever been about. Vanquished armies were sodomized by the victors. And so on.
Get over it, Helen. Eventually a Supreme Court is going to see that this is purely an issue of equal rights and civil rights.
Ah and homosexuals are not going away. They've always been with us. The only difference is that we no longer will let the breeder classes keep us hidden.
Them.
(Conservative Judaism is really moderate Judaism..covenantal in keeping the
traditions...but not Orthodox which is extreme rightwing.) I've had some
fascinating discussions with our campus Rabbi about Leviticus. (I am very
out at school but not to my students although most of them know anyway.)
Most of the laws were thrown out by the Rabbincal Talmudic councils
centuries ago. Many of the laws were retained and with very good reason:
Kosher is an extremely healthful diet; keeping Shabbat (the Sabbath) where
you do NO WORK at all is looking more and more appealing to me in this very
busy world; learning and studying Hebrew all your life means you read the
texts in the original language and not some Baptist bible thumping
mistranslation into English...and so on. The best one is that Jews invented
"spring cleaning"...for Passover, you go through the house and throw out
tons of stuff and make it sparkle!
But much of Leviticus is actually a hoot! My favorite is the wearing of two
fabrics...what the hell was that about? Probably some weaver in ancient
Israel got pissed off because his competition was horning in on his business
and he had the ear of some scribe...who knows? The other one, which hits
every Christian right in the gut, is that their women may not attend church
during their periods. In other words, Leviticus is a joke in modern life.
For those of you truly agnostic Protestants out there...check out Judaism.
It's very spiritual, endlessly fascinating to learn, and fills the gaps
neatly for you. I am sorta kinda sorta heading to conversion slowly as I
have fallen deeply in love with Jewish tradition and faith, merely by being
around it.
The fact is they haven't seen anything yet!
When it comes right down to it - Mormon's don't care what others think about them. Mormons have been persecuted against for 150 years and pushed from State to State. They have become a huge force despite this persecution. Their mantra is to "Live in the World but not of it". They live for the most part isolated in their own unique social groups.
All the Mormon's have done is draw a line in the sand as to where they stand on gay married. How does Gay marriage do anything of value for society? It's like little kids playing dress-up with their parents clothes. Gays can talk about true love and romance all they want but it's just a shell for real thing and it's true purpose which is raising children in a safe and normal environment to propagate the species. duh!?
By the way, take out the word Mormon and put in the word scientologist in your first paragraph, and it works, except, scientologists aren't trying to amend state constitutions to deny rights to a segment of the population. I don't care what crazy ass things either of you choose to believe as long as you don't force it on other people.
I'm hoping one of your prophets has a "revelation" again just like they did when it was no longer legally viable to discriminate against black folks.
cheers
We aren't a Democracy. We are a Republic. Therefore, it is not simply a case of the will of the majority winning out over the minority, neither is our government responible for protecting the minority from the majority. What counts, in our Republic, is the right of the Individual. The analogy that is my favorite is this:
"In a democracy, two wolves and a sheep are in the room, and everybody votes on what's for dinner. In America, the sheep has a gun."
The responsibility of the courts in this situation isn't going to be just to figure out what is best for the minority that feels left out, but also how to enforce the will of all the Individuals who have declared their preference. The ones who felt powerless in the first place, and so placed the measure up on the ballot--and won.
Second point, for all those sneering that these types of "defense of marriage" propositions are useless because 50% of marriages end in divorce, consider this: The statistics do not take into account marriages which really do last. They include the "serial marriages" from the likes of Larry King and Elizabeth Taylor. Take such people out of the equation, and up to 75-80% of marriages stay intact.
' Joseph Smith (Mormon prophet) started preaching "free agency"; everyone was free to choose whether or not to be on the side of the Lord (be a Mormon) or if not, then you were on the side of wickedness. You are entirely free to choose but, woe to the person who decided "wrong".' - Jon Krakauer, Under The Banner of Heaven
That's exactly why townspeople chased them out of Missouri. 'In 1836 the Missouri legislature in an attempt to relocate the Saints in a place far far away designated Caldwell County for the Mormon settlement." It was after this that Joseph assembled many followers and made a speech, he said and I quote, "I am to this generation a second Mohammad (there's Islam again!) whose motto in peace was "the Quran or the sword", and so I shall be the same "The Book of Mormon or the Sword". - Jon Krakauer, Under the Banner of Heaven.
They've always had this history. They were persecuted because they were scary and they participated in raids and were the victim of a raid on their settlement and got kicked out of the State.
And, you don't get to judge anyone else's marriage. Mormons and the religious right need to concentrate on your own business and stop interfering with the free choices that other people can make in a free country.
That cult is comprised of some of the worst hypocritical, hate mongering, egotistical, and sanctimonious individuals who distort morality and reason, all in the name of Jesus Christ.
As a gay man who has been in a monogamous relationship with his partner for coming on 8 years now, I would love to have society legally recognize my relationship.
Until then, I'll continue to choose to whom I spend my money and if I have any option or say in the matter it will not be towards any Mormon or any Mormon owned or controlled Company or Service.
Mormons can go frak themselves.
That reminds me, I need to send off that paperwork to the IRS requesting that the IRS rescind the CoJCoLDS lose its tax-exempt status.
Er..okay then. From now on, every couple who wants to marry must take a mandatory fertility test, and if you fail, no marriage for you.
And after marriage, if you do not produce offspring within 2 years, your marriage will be no longer valid.
p.s. Do not forget that the book of mormon teaches that people(angels?) who had turned against god were born with dark skin. They used to tell that Black people were sinners until a couple of decaes ago, when just after the victory of the civil rights movement, the mormon leader had a 'revelation' that said Black people were not sinners after all.
The Theology of Magic Underpants Inc. :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy0d1HbItOo
the Catholics have set up the church here in the US as separate entities that are much harder to target legally. they are standing in back of the stupid Morons to let them take the majority of the heat..
I am an exmormon. I was a missionary and leader of a congregation. I know mormon doctrine quite well. your comment:
"rules which include accepting Jesus as a polygamist who married his mother "
is plain false, mormons don't teach (even in their older embarassing books) that Jesus was a polygamist and certainly not married to his mother. Spreading mis-information is a discredit to you. On everythng else you said, I agree 100%.
Brent
I'll deal with whatever repercussions result, it's too good an idea to let pass.
The Mormon church is largely a business with a weird set of doctrines and fanatical leadership. Most Mormon folks are ok, but there are those few who stink up the whole bunch, just like any church or organization for that matter. BTW, if you don't like the Mormons, stay away from Masonry.
As you can see, they are quite different from most other Christian religions. They also believed that after Jesus died he appeared in America and preached to two tribes of Native Americans there, which is where they get their extra book The Book of Mormon.
Not spouting off at the hip here, I grew up in Utah. (yes, you can laugh now.)
We didn't let other religious sects take over States so I don't see a reason why they should even get Utah in my opinion.
ANY AND ALL RELIGIOUS GROUPS THAT GET INVOLVED IN ANY AND ALL POLITICAL ISSUES, DEBATES, ELECTIONS AT ANY TIME FOR ANY REASON AND IN ANY MANNER INFLUENCE, ENCOURAGE, SUGGEST AND IN ANY MANNER OF SPEAKING AND COMMUNICATION OF ANY KIND, MENTION POLITICAL ISSUES TO THEIR MEMBERSHIP AND OR REQUEST THEIR INVOLVEMENT AND OR DONATIONS FOR CAUSE.
"(rules which include accepting Jesus as a polygamist who married his mother and was the brother of Satan, rules which include being forced to convert to Mormonism against your will),
It is taught that Jesus was/is a polygamist who was the brother of Satan who married Mary Magdalene (not his mother). baptisms for the Dead are performed in the hopes that the dead will convert to Mormonism. And, finally, it is taught that all who do not accept this (and other doctrine called the "fullness of the Gospel") will not be allowed to enter the highest heaven or Celestial Kingdom.
So when Mormons post that their doctrine is totally misrepresented, either they don't know the doctrine or they are just tossing out the straw man for argument. Now members are encouraged to NOT disseminate much of this doctrine as it is believed that it will turn people off due to it's radical nature. (It's called give em milk before meat).
However, the Mormons who whine about being persecuted totally miss the point. Your Church, and most of you, donated your time, talents and money to making sure Prop 8 passed. You and the Church did this because you think homosexuality is a sin. And because you think it is a sin, you believe that you have the right and duty to take away a fundamental constitutional right (the CA SCt ruled this was a fundamental constitutional right under the constitution). Not only do you think your religious beliefs trump the personal rights of others, you will go from state to state to spread your bigotry.
What catches them by surprise is that we have now loeared to fight back against bullies. So hiding behind "you are being mean to us" is top of my list of things I don't care about. You wanna fight and take away the rights of others? So be it. We will fight back . . . and hard. And if it brings disrepute upon you and your Church . . . well . .. that's just too damned bad. You don't like it, stay out of it next time. Because you can best believe you people would go bat shit if we Californians put on the ballot a Prop that took away your right to worship . . . another fundamental right.