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Tis' the season after all!
BTW: I try to never miss reading your great comments.
The RW issue is relevant because it clearly illustrates the disparity between the treatment of gays and the treatment of ANY other minority group.
*nyuck nyuck*
The Gays got Rick-Rolled
He'll never give Warren up--
They clicked on a punk
The full statement on homosexuality is still up, but it does not say anything about membership:
http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/maturity/fullst...
Alcoholism is now a lifestyle too? Can't wait until A&E comes out with "Drunk eye for the straight guy" series.
Denial.
Or is that "Celestine Prophecy" guy still around? Is he on his 17th revelation at this point?
The pressure is what gets to these "straight males".
Nope, RW wants to be an international superstar. He is one of the three douches Oprah shoved down our throats, the other two were Barry and Dr. Phil. The deleted text has been used all over the internet to illustrate the truth about Ricky's homohatred. It makes him look bad and image is everything.
Anyways, I know that the Obama cultists will take any change and see it as a sign that Obama has worked his magic in his mysterious ways . It reminds me of how the religously superstitious see miracles in mere coincidences and ordinary events.
I'd like a snapshot from that original website up on a billboard, or on a t-shirt, by the way.
So if he isn't a wolf in sheep's clothing, maybe his anti-gay stuff is due to his evolving understanding of the Bible COMBINED with the need for fund raising issues COMBINED with just being male (we males seem to have a greater propensity to say stupid-ass things and then become entrenched even when we realize we were wrong). Maybe this is his first step toward enlightenment, based upon being beaten-up by the blogsphere, his need for acceptance in order to do the 'greater good' and the positive reinforcement that being invited to do the invocation is.
Regardless, everyone needs to recognize that none of this is taking place in a vacuum. Proposition 8, the subsequent demonstrations, the marriage issue in the press everyday, the suit to dismiss Prop 8, the Pope's disgusting statement today, the apparent change in Warren's membership policy, etc all are part of the same 'bigger picture.'
2009 is going to be a VERY interesting year.
Brilliant word play! (But then everyone knows how witty the gays is . . . )
Or was it the idea of his book publisher or Reader's Digest, who just signed Warren to make his own monthly magazine?
Heaven forbid we'd endanger any book or magazine sales.
The thing is that Warren is experiencing PERSONAL attacks. It's not a disagreement on issues; we are genuinely offended by him and what he believes, and his very presence is offensive to us. He is personally a problem to us, and we have been quite clear about that. I'm sure he realizes that he's hurting people, and I'm also sure that he doesn't feel good about this at all; gays are not his enemies, just a people prohibited by his religion. I'm not optimistic that Warren will turn around and become a civil rights leader, but it's plausible that if we keep up the pressure, he'll at least be more accepting of our rights as human beings whether we are gay or not.
The younger ones are less conservative generally and more accepting of gays. If Warren wants to hold on to them, he's probably going to have to modify his views - with or without Obama.
Aren't most religious leaders anti-gay and just not quite as open about it as Warren? Certainly the Catholic church is quite anti-gay. Can you really expect sincerity from them? The best you can hope for is that they tone down the rhetoric.
I know a lot of christians and a lot of catholics who couldn't give a rat's ass who you sleep with as long as you're a decent human being.
I know a catholic priest who actually defends the gay community and the few gay members in his church on a regular basis, his logic... he is not God to judge anyone so why should he?
I'm assuming, by the way, that you didn't grow up Catholic.
What's your point?
I have seen a lot of racism and discrimination (towards non-gays) within the gay community, yet I know better than to lump all gays in the same group as those who've discriminated against others based on race and/or sexual orientation.
Would it hurt to think that maybe, just maybe, not everyone in the christian or catholic faith agrees with everything their faiths preach?
Most think that those in the muslim faith hate everyone else who isn't muslim, yet we know that isn't necessarily true... (I hope you at least realize that it's not true, if you do think that's true then this conversation is pointless and we shouldn't continue it any further).
What part is rare? The priest being supportive of my gay cousin or the fact that I am honest enough to acknowledge the blatant racism and discrimination that goes on in the gay community?
It does exist except not many want to admit it does, or even are aware of it (because they've never been on the receiving end).
I was not an Obama supporter during the primaries but it just amazes me how commenters here are still slamming John for his support for Obama. On the other hand pro-Obama people that are just stunned with his homophobic actions simply were NOT paying attention.
When you turn the light on the cockroaches they scurry to hide. We need more people like you to turn on some more lights and expose the hatred that right there for all to see but no one knows where to look and too many look the other way.
THANK YOU, for being such an unapologetic pain in the ass to these people. Thank you for sticking to your mission even when people in the comments, including me, say that you have gone too far.
We need MORE, not fewer, people like you with courage, conviction and determination to fight injustice even when it means fighting in the minority and even fighting against those who should be natural allies on our side of the political divide.
This is about things like truth, fairness, and justice.
Rick Warren should be cornered: So does that mean, now, that a self-accepting gay person can become a member of Saddleback Church?
And, by the way, no politician should be above reproach or criticism. Supporting any politician blindly or unconditionally is silly. The American citizenry shouldn't be like Scientologists are to L. Ron Hubbard and David Miscavige, refusing to entertain the notion of their leader(s) having any flaws, much less fishiness (or severe corruption).
I thought Obama's Donnie McClurkin business was loathsome; and I thought Clinton's Bosnia airport bold-faced lying was loathsome. Et cetera. In a healthy democracy, no leader is above reproach. If the emperor ain't wearing any clothes, we need to tell him or her.
And not calling out despicable decisions, or lies, will cause more of them to happen. It is, quite simply, an accountability loop.
Thank goodness for John Aravosis and all others who are speaking out.
Hope those damn Dem's are at least paying attention. I'm getting a feeling we'll have to spend some time holding Obama's feet to the fire on a number of issues. We're just getting in shape!
Warren may or may not believe the language was destructive, but the fact it was taken off his site shows the power in repeated protest.
Gays are constantly asked to look at the big picture and to forget about their Civil Rights until later, always later.
I would suggest later is now. No one in 2008 -09 should have to be fighting for the Rights every other citizen in the country enjoys.
Good work, John.
This is an important fight.
Fair warning...
sitemonitor
Bullshit.
Maybe Rick picked up a copy of "The Origins and Role of Same-Sex Relations in Human Societies" by James Neill and freshly published by McFarland & Co. and now regrets his unfounded heterosexual imaginings???
Rick Warren's church specifically bans lesbians like Mary Cheney and gay males like Mark Buse (McCain's Chief of Staff) from membership because she has not renounced the "gay lifestyle" nor repented from embracing evil.
Also, Rick Warren specifically called our glbt military vets child rapists when he compared gays to pedophiles. Even Fred Phelps didn't go that far. Where is the fucking media?
Some people are brought up in the deep South and their parents instilled values that the White man is to be respected, and the Niggra looked at with a suspicious eye (especially when he dares look at your wife or girlfriend). Now mind you these are just the values and faith these people were raised in. Some are from a different era. Who are we to judge them or their faith? Don't they deserve respect? Certainly if you call someone like that a bigot, they are not going to suddenly embrace the Coloreds.
MotorCityBadBoy, you know what you need? A cool gay or lesbian friend. I'm a cool-gay-friend to several straight guys. I have never came on to any of them, and would never do so (even the good-looking ones!). I know they're not into that. I respect that, and they respect me. Our not being the same can be the source of very interesting conversations. Sometimes it's enriching to hang with people who aren't your own "kind."
I play b-ball, too, by the way. But most of my b-ball buds don't know that I'm gay. Some would be fine with it, some might not be -- and that stinks.
In fact, you probably already personally know, and like, gay or lesbian people, who are afraid to tell you that they are gay or lesbian.
Again, I appreciate your honesty.
How about two lesbians? That usually turns straight men on. The homosexuality issue doesn't revolve around homosexuality itself as much as it does around homosexual men. Somehow, they are perceived as a threat.
Is someone born gay? Turn it around. Is someone born straight? When did you make the decision to be sexually attracted to females? It is a MAJOR part of someone's life so you must vividly remember the occasion. Was it a difficult decision?
Does it matter? As far as I am concerned the "is it a choice" argument is only used because it is a question that cannot be definitively answered. It is a cowards question.
Who cares if it is a choice? What about the ex-gays? Are they divinely saved? Mentally cured? Or is it a choice? No one seems to ever ask that question. You should.
I was hoping that with the election of Obama, after 8 tortuous years of being led by poorly-spoken, proud C-student Bush, our country would return to valuing and honoring intelligence and intellectualism. Obama's appointing real scientists to departments where science is inestimably important is encouraging. However, granting a spot at the inauguration to this Rick Warren person, who expressly discourages science, open inquiry, and thinking for oneself, is fantastically disappointing, just on the basis of his anti-intellectualism.
Well, I don't think that Hillary deeply hates gay people but for many reasons I think that Barry does.
"What does it mean to be a chosen people?
Question: Our small group met last night and we had a question we thought maybe you would help us clarify. If the Jews are God’s chosen people and they follow the laws as handed down to Moses, yet they do not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah, how then can they be saved and ensure their place in heaven?
Answer: When you think about how those who have a Jewish heritage come to salvation, the best answer is in looking at the first followers of Jesus. The first disciples were all Jewish men, but their salvation came through their relationship with Christ, not their Jewish background. The same is true of the Apostle Paul and every other Jew who came to Christ in the New Testament. The truth of the Bible is, we all come to salvation in the same way ... through our faith in Christ.
When God calls the Jews his chosen people it does not mean that they are all automatically chosen for salvation. It means that they were chosen to be the nation that would follow him and teach others what it meant to follow him. That is why Jesus went to the Jewish people first when he came to this earth. Through the Jewish people (Jesus himself was a Jew), he brought the blessing of salvation to the world.
Of course, today there are not as great a number of Jewish believers in Jesus as we would expect. If they are God’s chosen people, why aren’t more choosing faith in him? The Bible tells us in Romans 11 that there will be a day when this will change – a day when there will be a great revival of faith in God through Jesus among the Jewish people. Obviously, this is a day that we, as believers in Christ, want to pray for! "
Sorry if that was confusing?
Now that you've gotten Obama elected, you act surprised and upset? That just shows how stupid you were and how vicious you were during the primaries to anyone that tried to point out the obvious to you! Obama is not the progressive god, he's not even a progressive on most issues! He's a conservative black man, and thanks to his candidacy and his unwillingness to campaign for gay rights - prop 8 passed in California - congrats! You had a direct impact on the rights of gay people, you helped take them away by supporting the homophobe for president!!!
Now it's too late, and Obama really doesn't give a damn about you or your opinion since he's elected just as we who were dissatisfied with him pointed out! Obama is about Obama - end of debate! If you're lucky enough to be on the same side of an issue great, otherwise he'll give you platitudes and do whatever he wants! That's how he was in the state house, and what every sane person pointed out to you in the primaries! But you were too busy carrying water for the GOP and spreading Clinton Derangement Syndrome among other diseases... Now we all just get to make the best of it, and I get to spend 4 more years yelling at the news!!! Thanks - asshole!
Pope likens "saving" gays to saving the rainforest
Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:46pm GMT
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict said on Monday that saving humanity from homosexual or transsexual behavior was just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction.
"(The Church) should also protect man from the destruction of himself. A sort of ecology of man is needed," the pontiff said in a holiday address to the Curia, the Vatican's central administration.
"The tropical forests do deserve our protection. But man, as a creature, does not deserve any less."
The Catholic Church teaches that while homosexuality is not sinful, homosexual acts are. It opposes gay marriage and, in October, a leading Vatican official called homosexuality "a deviation, an irregularity, a wound."
The pope said humanity needed to "listen to the language of creation" to understand the intended roles of man and woman. He compared behavior beyond traditional heterosexual relations as "a destruction of God's work."
He also defended the Church's right to "speak of human nature as man and woman, and ask that this order of creation be respected."
Prior to becoming a priest, young Josef was a Hitler Youth, but he maintains that he was only following orders.
In no uncertain terms, Obama will KILL GAYS with this decision. Just as the decision by the US to join Islamic countries and the Holy See in opposition to the UN resolution. http://www.undispatch.com/archives/2008/12/on_t...
This act, like McClurkin, is indefensible. This is my life. This is the lives of gays and lesbians all over the world. We are not a political statement. Using us is just as bad as Bush and Co using the troops for their political statements. Despised and dispensible.
"In no uncertain terms, Obama will KILL GAYS with this decision. Just as the decision by the US to join Islamic countries and the Holy See in opposition to the UN resolution."
I was equating his actions inviting Warren to the world stage to the actions of the current administration at the UN. The point being that there is little difference.
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/americas/2008...
It is world news and it matters.
We are not going away and I promise you that this is going to get ugly if Obama does not act on his LGBT campaign promises by July 1. You better get over it.
"In equal desire to follow Jesus, we also would not accept a couple into membership at Saddleback who were not willing to repent of the sexual sin of living together before marriage. That does not mean this couple cannot attend church – we hope they do! God’s Word has the power to change our lives. "
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-karel-bou...
Nails Warren and Barry!!!!!!!!!
Yes the good reverend Warren might be a righteous bigot, however as Ms. Etheredge's ecumenical tone and outreach through her posting illustrate, it is to the betterment of all to invite those who hate to our table. It is a most christian thing to do. Even if I'm not one.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/charles-karel-bou...
He adds in the comments:
I love how progressives are supposed to be civil now. Warren goes on TV and says vote against equal protection for gays. Here's the spot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7o4QqGbQmU0
But that's not hateful?
He then compares same sex marriage to incest here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZMf9mPB_nE
But he does it with kindness and love so that's OK? OK, I lovingly say he should stay home Jan. 20.
And as for abortion: "If they think that life begins at conception, then that means that there are 40 million Americans who are not here [because they were aborted] that could have voted," Warren said.
"They would call that a holocaust, and for them it would like if I'm Jewish and a Holocaust denier is running for office. I don't care how right he is on everything else, it's a deal breaker for me. I'm not going to vote for a Holocaust denier
I wonder if any of you would be faking your outrage at me if Warren spoke against Blacks or Jews the way he speaks against gays. Or if he spoke against Christians, denying them a right to marry.
And this indefensible, brain dead idea that rights are determined by numbers. No wonder he grossly understates the percentage of gays in California. He believes that the smaller the size of a group, the smaller their claim to basic rights. I'm sure the phrase "tyranny of the majority" would have to be explained to him. I wonder if he would have sided with the majority of Romans against the early Christians. I'm not saying he's truly stupid. He's just not smart. How embarrassing that he will be delivering the invocation. And of course how outrageous.
Have you read any of his books? He's sort of like the Thomas Kinkaide of evangelism - really good at marketing and branding himself as a business, but there's no "there there".
Haven't you heard of the Lickalotopus?
If this were the 1920s, Obama probably would have invited Bruce Burton, an evangelical who had a best-selling book called "The Man Nobody Knows". It's a little like Warren's writings - Burton's take on Christianity is that Jesus was a "salesman" and that, to be a good Christian, you had to be a good salesman like Jesus!
Tawdry Christian self-help gurus are nothing new and have their brief moment of fame until something new comes along. They're like the authors of dieting books.
Obama is justifying bigotry.
Learn how to spell "inauguration" before posting again. Thanks.
I would focus more on the fact that the majority of Californian voters stated that gay marriage is not their cup of tea. Does this mean that every Californian is potentially your enemy and a questionable presidential choice?
Thank you for reading. Now if you will excuse me I'll go back to worry about how to pay my medical bills, keep my place worm and see if I can find a job .
The revulsion to Obama's choice of Rick Warren has, probably rightly, concentrated on his unconscionable anti-gay remarks, but I find his anti-science stance just as -- or more -- dangerous.
Why did Obama choose Rick Warren to give the invocation in the same week he announced his scientific team? One or the other has to be a joke. You can't be Fred Flintstone AND Steven Chu. To me, placing Rick Warren on a pedestal isn't just an insult to rational people; it sends the terrible message that creationism is a plausible scientific theory -- just as Kay Warren teaches. It says science is opinion, not even educated opinion. In fact, it's the WRONG opinion. What is the point of pouring my tax dollars into our educational system on the one hand if on the other, you place delusional nonsense on a podium and give it a big ol' mike?
Rick Warren's thinking is dangerous on many levels, but the dangers it poses for our future is debilitating. The nation will get over being anti-gay in the same way it's getting over being anti-minority and anti-feminist -- the old bigots are dying off. But it won't get over being dumb if we keep on teaching new generations that the charming Biblical myths of Genesis are scientific and historical fact.
The Constant Weader at www.RealityChex.com
When are you going to post this on Huffington Post? Or are you too chicken shit?
Today, the big blog from a fellow gay was: Gay marriage is stupid.
Everyone on Huff Post agrees, and gays are nothing more than a bunch of harpies.
2)i'm sure sadback church is like "what's a Google's cache?" duh
Not sure which of these is worse really. They're all an affront to intelligence, decency and freedom.
I've read so many entries and comments filled with such distaste and ANGER. Many of you are so damned angry! Why aren't you focusing on the positive? Obama has been elected, and thus, positive changes are on the horizon. Maybe you guys won't be able to get married right away. So what? How about having jobs to pay for the damned weddings you want? Fuck, you should read the things that you post - it's illogical and many of you appear to have on blinders.
You know, your collective group is worse than the bigots and homophobes that you spit your own venom rhetoric at with such haste.
Maybe we should just stop all weddings. I mean it's not like any part of the economy depends on weddings. I fail to see the logic in your argument. If anything you would think that gay weddings would only add to the economy. Then again, what do I know about shopping.
Again, this isn't just about marriage. The rhetoric Warren espouses is much the same as the junk people like Falwell were spewing out very publicly a few years ago. This kind of talk - and a "blessing" of it by the "powers that be" - makes it appear just okay dokey to go out and bash Gays. There's also issues like employment discrimination that's gotten lost in all the hoopla the Religious Right is making about Gay marriage. Warren's equated being Gay with pedophilia; it's kinda hard to get a job if folks think all Gays are predators.
No one's talking about taking away the guy's freedom of speech or doing what he wants in his own church. Where there's a problem is Obama's support of Warren's public pronouncements by giving the man a prominent place in what has traditionally been an apolitical celebration.
I've been around long enough to remember the Gay community's euphoria after Clinton was elected and the bitter disappointments we saw in that administration. The Warren choice seems to say we're in for much of the same - nice words, but no action to back up what he's saying.
And the Democrats wonder why progressives and Gays keep toying with third parties.
Yep...every time, John i give you credit for moving beyond the village...you say something like this...so hey...you want to push this point? Cool.
me...I remember Rev wright and when Obama sent a message to a wider audience
but hey..Obama is clueless ..does not have any understanding,,,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe7wTVbLUU
so yep...pursue....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWe7wTVbLUU
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/warren-obama...
Isn't it interesting the Coretta Scott King's last speech was against excluding gays from equal rights?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-24-...
How quickly Warren leveraged his new "openness" to get a place at the power table. He just out-played Obama in one swift move. I worry about the next four years.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/warren-obama...
Isn't it interesting the Coretta Scott King's last speech was against excluding gays from equal rights?
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-03-24-...
How quickly Warren leveraged his new "openness" to get a place at the power table. He just out-played Obama in one swift move. I worry about the next four years.
I wonder how these people are going to react when they get to heaven and find that God has admitted for gays and lesbians. Heaven, as I understand it, isn't as exclusive as Saddleback Church....
As "Ohio_Dem" said, taking it off the site (if it is completely removed) doesn't mean that gays are now accepted -it just means that the bigotry isn't advertised. How many KKK members proudly wore their sheets yet stayed "closeted"? No, I don't think we're really better off.
Rick
http://web.archive.org/web/20071026063007/www.s...
http://www.webcitation.org/5dEzhdI4w
For a permanent record of this, someone really needs to do a series of screenshots and keep them on their hard drive.
The paragraph about membership at Saddleback being banned to gays if they are "unwilling to repent of their homosexual lifestyle" is now gone. You can do a text search on that exact phrase. Their own cache still matches that phrase which proves that it was there but when you click on the search results, it is gone.
Bill, if you found that it is still there and has moved, please cut and paste the current location in your reply.
The exact same paragraph about what "judging others" means and an even more disturbing paragraph about how gays are just like alcoholics is above it here ( http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/maturity/fullst... ). Don't tell me that is not anti-gay. It is disgusting.
Clearly, he is not saying homosexuality is any "worse" than sleeping around. In fact, he's saying that it's ONE of his many beliefs.
I think people need to just let him speak his mind. When you turnaround and point fingers you are doing exactly the same thing that you are saying he's doing.
However, when Obama said he was going to reach out, build bridges, find common ground, etc. folks applauded. Then when he actually does, all hell breaks lose.
Chill out. Let the guy govern. It's much too soon to render a final verdict.
http://thefiresidepost.com/2008/11/02/old-women...
tweetchiezone
Obama says he wants to overturn "don't ask-don't tell." Let's give him a chance to make good on that word. He believes in civil unions, but not gay "marriage" per say. This is nothing new. He was consistent in his campaign. As an agnostic straight person, I believe that couples (gay or straight) should be allowed a civil union (a civil marriage, which would entitle couples to the same legal rights, adoption rights, inheritance rights, etc.). "Marriages" should not be up to the government to define anyway. They have no business interfering. It should be up to one's church. We're getting hung up on terminology here. Don't forget Bill Clinton also signed the Defense of Marriage Act - another slap in the face to the gay community. It's going to take time and patience to fight for its reversal. And we should all put pressure on Obama to do so.
We need to chill about the Warren invocation, and concentrate on the Rev. Lowery benediction (which the media has conveniently ignored!). Obama isn't perfect and never pretended to be. We all WANTED him to be the savior of the progressives, the gays, the environmentalists. He'll do some good, but he'll be sure to disappoint one or all of these groups on specific issues. I'm trying to focus on the bigger picture.
He got off to a shaky start with the gay community,but I believe he'll make up for it as he settles in to office............He's no dummy.
He put gay issues front and center for those to see and dialogue has begun. When you have someone as well respected in the gay community as Melissa Ethridge saying reach out to him, that's progress.
He has NOTHING to make up for.
Readers of this blog may still find this offensive; they may find the entire concept of sin offensive. But to a conservative Christian, these policies are not surprising at all - and certainly are not "anti-gay," any more than the church's policy regarding marrying people who are sleeping together is "anti-straight." I have friends who have repented their gay lifestyle and joined Saddleback. This doesn't mean that they say they're not gay - it means they repent the lifestyle (i.e., "acting out") and try to remain pure in a way that is no different from adulterers or alcoholics who do the same thing.
To us Christians, sin is sin. Greed, lust (gay or straight), materialism, rage, self-aggrandizement, forsaking God - they're all sins and they come from living in a fallen world. Christ offers forgiveness, and if we repent he will draw us near to God.
Oh, I'm sure a greedy, materialistic, angry hetero Christian couple can still get married at Saddleback without too much hassle. If Ricky Warren up and decided to deny those people membership, where would he be getting his millions of tax-exempt dollars?
I know Rick. I Worked at Saddleback. I attended there for 20+ years. I have a very close gay friend that I met at a Christian college who later came out. He is still a very close friend. I am nauseated when some churches make homosexuality seem like the unpardonable sin, You might not believe me but Saddleback is not that kind of church,
Yes, they believe the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. I agree. However, that does not mean I hate my friend. That does not mean I hate other gay men I have known having once worked with many in the airline industry. My friend totally understands my position and respects me. He has told me this is not something he chose and I do believe him. I feel great pain for him that he if he chose to accept the stricture of the Bible as I see them that he would have to live a celibate life. That is so unfair. I honestly cannot imagine that. It sounds flippant I know to say that we all have things in our lives that seem unfair, some more than others. And yet I look around and see some are born into abject poverty and some into great wealth. Some into perfect health and some into a lifetime of continual health problems. And no, I am not saying gay people are "sick". I am simply saying that we all have a cross of some type to bear and readily admit that I could not imagine having to live a life of celibacy. But nor do I like as a single man having to live a life of celibacy either.
I wilol time out shortly but let me quickly say the reason this question is on the Saddleback website is because so many Christians make this a litmus test and ask the question. As I said, you just can't imagine this person you call hateful recieves so much crap from "Christians".
A person "living in sin" would face Biblical church discipline just as a gay person. There is no special punishment just for gays,
How would you feel (assuming you are straight) if someone told you that you had to either marry a person of the same sex or spend the rest of your life resisting the urge to "act out" on your prohibited heterosexual desires.
I understand that Rick Warren isn't a bigot, and he's not evil, and he doesn't hate gays and lesbians. But his philosophy is still deeply offensive to many people who only want the same chance to pursue happiness with a partner in life that straight people get.
Just as the accession of a non-white to the highest office in the land did not happen overnight but is the result of many stages, so will these gains be. I expect that if the President elect employs these same strategies in his foreign plicy we would have less conflict with those we now call our enemies.
ironic.
What he has now is a series of questions and vocal responses to them that visitors to his webpage can listen to - the only thing he changed was the written text, but not the statement that unrepentant gay people cannot be members of his church. Search a little deeper on his site and you'll find it.
So the substance has not changed - only the form.
With that said, however, if someone wants to start a church and restrict membership to heterosexuals, or brunettes with green eyes, or any other sort of restrictions they can do that - was not that one of our founding principles? But if that is the case then don't turn to that particular church expecting to find a broad cross section of beliefs or believers!
There are a couple of parables that tell me that when it comes right down to it we as faithful people of God must simply share our beliefs with others and leave the final choosing up to God. No one can make heavenly reservations!
She's farmgirl, but I'd say farm manure from all the shits she writes.
And, she's also doubled checked her honey and Warren blog...usually it is really gobbly gook.
Homophobia still on saddleback site, just moved to a differant location
Note that Saddleback's homophobic position has moved to:
http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/bibleqanda...
question #22
go here and listen to number #22...
http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/bibleqanda...
If you're anti-smoking, it means you're against behavior that an individual chooses to partake in which has a negative effect on the health of everyone around him. Being against behavior like that doesn't make someone a fascist...it makes them logical. Aren't we all protective of our health? If someone was walking around and randomly firing bullets in our general direction, wouldn't we want it stopped? (The only difference is that the bullets work faster to kill us than the cigarette smoke we walk through every day.)
If you're anti-gay, it means you're against someone for being born the way they are. (Similar to racism or sexism, in which people are persecuted for being who they are.)
http://www.saddlebackfamily.com/home/bibleqanda...
You cannot truly imagine the crap Warren is getting and has gotten from the hard Christian Right. Routinely his faith is questioned because some think his focus on helping the poor and his and the church's involvement in the movement to stop AIDS is the "social gospel" and as such is not true gospel.
I know Rick. I Worked at Saddleback. I attended there for 20+ years. I have a very close gay friend that I met at a Christian college who later came out. He is still a very close friend. I am nauseated when some churches make homosexuality seem like the unpardonable sin, You might not believe me but Saddleback is not that kind of church,
Yes, they believe the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin. I agree. However, that does not mean I hate my friend. That does not mean I hate other gay men I have known having once worked with many in the airline industry. It means I take a viewpoint that I think is shown in the Bible. My friend totally understands my position and respects me. He has told me this is not something he chose and I do believe him. I feel great pain for him that he if he chose to accept the strictures of the Bible as I see them that he would have to live a celibate life. That is so unfair. I honestly cannot imagine that. It sounds flippant I know to say that we all have things in our lives that seem unfair, some more than others. And yet I look around and see some are born into abject poverty and some into great wealth. Some into perfect health and some into a lifetime of continual health problems. And no, I am not saying gay people are "sick". I am simply saying that we all have a cross of some type to bear and readily admit that I could not imagine having to live a life of celibacy. But nor do I like as a single man having to live a life of celibacy either.
A person "living in sin" would face Biblical church discipline just as a gay person. There is no special punishment just for gays, Part of what I did at Saddleback was work on a team called "Membership". No, it wasn't like a country club making sure people had the "right color" or pedigree. We organized the baptisms, a symbolic act of those joining the church if they had not already been baptized, followed up on the baptism cards people signed indicating they wanted to "join the church as members". As Baptists, we practiced what is called "immersion" meaning that we believed based on what we believe the Bible teaches that when you are baptized you are fully immersed into the water as opposed to sprinkling as do some other Christian churches do. We don't question one's salvation because they were "sprinkled" but because we are a Baptist church, that is the way we believe and it was necessary for membership. Some people would say, "I was baptized as an infant" and might feel it was a bit dishonoring to their parents to be re-baptized. We were very gracious but still required baptism as an act of the will of the individual following a salvation experience as opposed to a decision made by the parents. Now we did not "hate" these people. Some where already volunteering in different aspects of the ministry. We wanted them to join the church and they wanted to join but there were just certain creeds, or core beliefs, that had to be followed. By being a member they agreed they would choose to live peaceably with one another, support the doctrines of the church, support the leadership, and affirm their salvation and baptism and as such they were now eligible to have a teaching or leadership role in the church.. I am going through all of this to say that believing in a core principle of what we believe the Bible teaches does not make a hater. Where legitimate differences lie one cannot just dump their core values for the sake of pleasing others.
I have had to remove people from leadership due to issues of breaking the church covenants for adultery. If a staff member is divorced WHILE ON staff for what is not considered Biblical grounds (abandonment, abuse, and immorality by the other party) they will be given a generous amount of time to seek new employment. The church does not teach that drinking alcohol is a sin but rules require that staff cannot while in the employment of the church. The staff is held to different,and tougher standard. Married staff members of the opposite sex cannot be alone if they are not married to each other. It is so to avoid the appearance or the temptation for impropriety. This was a rule that Billy Graham started as a new pastor and continues to this day. Again, these are not "gay issues". Rather this is what the church believes. You can disagree but we try to disagree and not be disagreeable. That is what I love about Saddleback. I was tired of divisive fundamentalist Christianity that would call gays derisive names from the pulpit. It made me sick and I'm certain it makes God even more sick.
I know this is long but I will add one more point. Many lump Warren with the ubiquitous "TV evangelists" we have all seen too many of (although not EVERY one of them is a charlatan) but Rick decided very early on in his ministry he did not want to be in a TV ministry because it becomes the tail that wags the dog and the constant fundraising is unseemly and exacerbates the caricature of the money-grubbing evangelist. When Rick's book, The Purpose Driven Life, came out in like 2001 it shot through the roof in book sales. It has sold over 30 million copies. At that point Rick gave back the salary he had already received from Saddleback for the previous 23 years and declined to take a salary in the future. He made a decision to live on 10% of the money he made from the book and set up three foundations with the remaining 90% of the royalties. One of those includes a foundation to fight AIDS. The other is for relief, AIDS prevention and missionary work in Africa. To date over 8,000 members from Saddleback have gone on short term mission trips in the last 5 years. Some of these were paid for out of the foundation itself. Warren still lives in the same modest house by Orange County, CA standards he has lived in for the last 20 years, still drives a Ford SUV and still dresses terrible.Warren is not about money.
By now some of you are saying I no doubt drank the kool-aid. I haven't. I have seen Rick up close. He is the real deal. Oh, and one other thing, I was fired from the church for crossing the line sexually with my girlfriend while on staff. Yet Rick was very gracious and very encouraging to me. He gave me a big old hug and told me how much he loved me and appreciated me as person. That's the guy that some of you are vilifying. I understand you are hurt. I understand you don't agree. I understand some Christians are idiots and have treated gays very poorly and outright sinfully. Rick will not change what he believes to be the biblical position in order to be liked or for political expediency but he is someone who will champion the call among conservative Evangelicals to be respectful and disagree without being disagreeable. We can disagree without hating. Just as conservatives need to learn tolerance so do those who advocate tolerance. But tolerance doesn't mean capitulation.
If you've read this far....thanks. Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, or just have a good week.
I hope that you have a Merry 12 days of Christmas.
George
I actually work with Christians around the world who face what you describe and yet still believe in the face of death. They are not terrorists. They are killed simply for their beliefs. You won't see many Christian suicide bombers. Yes you get the very extremely rare wacko that blows up an abortion clinic but they are reviled by believers as well.
Merry Christmas.
It doesn't matter. We all know how Rick Warren actually feels and thinks, because he's said it all before. There is no 11th hour conversion here, just a little window dressing.
OUR MESSAGE IS A POWERFUL CHANGE OF HEART AND REPENTANCE TO BECOME A BELIEVER AND A FOLLOWER OF JESUS CHRIST!...CHANGE OF HEART WILL CHANGE THE ACTIONS AND BELIEFS!
QUIT FINDING FAULT WITH WARREN WHEN HE IS TRYING TO WIN THE LOST AND CONFUSED "GAYS" THAT NEED THE MESSAGE OF GOD'S FORGIVING LOVE EXEMPLIFIED ON THE CROSS WHEN JESUS PRAYED "FORGIVE THEM, THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING!"
CLAUDE PITTENGER
fair warning...
sitemonitor