DISQUS

Rob Mule · 1 year ago

Rick worships at the room service dining cart...

MiMart · 1 year ago

Well at least we can take comfort knowing that Obama has no problem agreeing to disagree with Warren.

benb · 1 year ago

The author of the article goes on to say "I found myself impressed that Warren remained true to his convictions". Hmmm..Adolf Hitler would've really impressed the guy for sticking to his convictions.

Rob Mule · 1 year ago

Dubya stuck to his...

LowKey · 1 year ago

Someone should have given Bush the same advice that robert downey jr gave to ben stiller in tropic thunder:

"You never go full retard."

postdamnit · 1 year ago

This whole religious business is so much nonsense. If one does a bit of critical thinking and studies some, you come to that conclusion.

Who has the authority or arrogance to make these comments. As I wrote Warren, think what Jesus would do (not that I am an adherent) but not as your ego would do. All of these so-called religious leaders are ego driven. They have no real understanding of "grace" and what it means to be Christlike. Think a second. This man has the largest "mega church" in the world with 22000 sheep following his every word. Man, that makes him a very powerful person! At least in his mind.

tbhull · 1 year ago

I not much on Hell or fat bastards promoting his own brand of bullshit around the Heaven/Hell concept. For that reason, giving this repugnant tub of goo any stage or time is a waste of the latter.

Will · 1 year ago

The Aspen Institute only has audio and video for 2007-2008, and it looks like the conference was the 2005 Aspen Ideas Festival.
I have a friend at the Aspen Institute, I'll check on Monday if there is anything available.

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

Thank you, John, for exposing the kind of preacher Mr. Obama has chosen to honor on his inauguration day. I was concerned about Donny McClurkin. I was alarmed about Jeremiah Wright. And now this. There appears to be a major flaw in Mr. Obama's thinking, and we can not let this go. Too much is at stake.

tbhull · 1 year ago

I think Rick Warren would be happier if that buttermilk biscuit in his carotid brought him to his perceived promised land where pizza buffets all day ever after.

biggerbox · 1 year ago

I'm on-board with that whole "we don't have to be disagreeable, even if we disagree" thing, but I must say that Warren has said a bunch of stuff that sounds pretty disagreeable to me. He's frankly rude about what he believes.

tlsintx · 1 year ago

before all this publicity, I thought Ricky had something on the ball...like maybe he was something new and improved in the world of winger religious nuts.

nope. just another no-brainer.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

Actually, what you said is in line with what I've been thinking about this whole thing (and which I put into one of my earlier comments. That is that there are a lot of people who have had somewhat positive opinions of Warren, because they hadn't heard his bigoted and rather ignorant comments. Now they're hearing them, and I think it's going to open up some eyes/minds and close some doors that probably need to be closed (and maybe even empty out some pews). It seems that this emperor also has no clothes.

dad · 1 year ago

but he makes all that money. certainly god had a hand in that

for profit prophet

simply a fat variation on ann coulter. sell a book become the established go to.

a purpose driven lie

Will · 1 year ago

the Puke-ish Drivel Life

Steve · 1 year ago

Sadly, the whole going to Hell thing is at the center of Christianity, (try actually reading the new testament sometime.)
Without the Hell biz there is no reason to follow that series of flat earth codified bronze age superstitions.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Yep, and almost none of it comes from Jesus. It is almost all from the other NT writers, Jewish superstition of the time, and very largely from later writers who misinterpreted them.

dad · 1 year ago

jerry falwell minus the stench of death

Webster · 1 year ago

Oh, I don't know--Warren smells pretty bad to me!

Will · 1 year ago

From a Q&A with Caroline Kennedy at Politco.com:

QUESTION 2: Same-sex marriage. Do you support the right of gay and lesbian couples to marry? Do you think it's appropriate that Rick Warren, who campaigned to ban gay marriage, is delivering the invocation at Obama's inauguration? If not, have you expressed that to the president-elect?

ANSWER: "Caroline supports full equality and marriage rights for gay and lesbian couples."

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Caroline gets it. She knows that the corner has been turned on this issue and there will be full marriage equality, nationwide, fairly soon.

tlsintx · 1 year ago

Dear Barack,

John McCain ditched Hagee...remember?

dad · 1 year ago

in a country desperate to believe in something, anything. monitary success through god is religion. can't unite unless you have a fight. hate fills the plate. can't grow without a call. better than makes me holy.

TomsOld · 1 year ago

Why the hell go you need a preacher to openup any event anyway? Seperate the church from all state events.

BHBuck · 1 year ago

That's okay, John. The more limitations and controls Warren puts on his little clique, the quicker they'll become extinct.

Edit: I meant to say "The more exclusive..."

mmedefarge · 1 year ago

I don't know about that---have you ever seen the size of fundy families?

afafkd · 1 year ago

some won't consider any flavor other than the one they've always had and supplying them with what they expect is profitable business

Tired of Bigots · 1 year ago

If I had Rick Warren as a neighbor, I would attempt to be civil, but I would also keep my distance.

I'd also carefully monitor any contact he had with other mebers of my family, especially my children.

Rob Mule · 1 year ago

"A most obvious example of the inadequacy of social constructionism in explaining the sexual behavior of a society is the persistence of homosexuality in Western culture. Same-sex behavior was harshly condemned and punished for centuries, and was hardly visible at all until recent decades, while a strictly heterosexual, family-oriented sexual morality has for centuries dominated religion, civil law and social customs. If, as social constructionism argues, a society's sexuality is constructed by the society's attitudes and set of sexual mores, then homosexuality should not have existed in Western society at all, which is obviously not the case."

--James Neill

mpower1952 · 1 year ago

I just finished watching Philadelphia again and I can't stop crying. This bigotry and hatred has to stop. Obama has disappointed me, inclusion is one thing, honoring Warren is another. Keep up the fight.

EdNSted · 1 year ago

"That's about as basic a tenet of Christianity that there is."

Ding. Ding. Ding.

Yes indeed, that's why John 3:16 is considered to be the "Gospel in a nutshell".

hopeless pedant · 1 year ago

Being Christian means that you believe that those who are not Christians (that is don't accept that Jesus is their savior) will go to hell.

That's about as basic a tenet of Christianity that there is.

Rick Warren should not be giving the invocation, but that he tells a Jewish woman that, according to Christianity that she will go to hell is not remotely the reason. He is only saying what the vast majority of Americans who are Christian believe. It is what Barack Obama, if he really is a Christian, believes.

I became an agnostic precisely because I couldn't accept that my Jewish friends are damned. At least I understood what Christianity is and says, and don't pretend that I am a Christian, when I can't be if I don't accept this most basic of tenets.

jurassicpork · 1 year ago

Pottersville’s annual Christmas spectacular is up and this year it’s an extended Assclowns of the Week: The 12 Assclowns of Christmas Edition. Roasting with the chestnuts: George W. Bush; Dick “Twister” Cheney; Rod Blagojevich; Bernard “Ponzi” Madoff; Senate Republicans; Condoleezza Rice and, believe it or not, President-Elect Barack Obama (overyou know who) and much, much more.

Ho, ho, ho. Enjoy and happy holidays.

Dave of the Jungle · 1 year ago

It should be little surprise that many Christians believe non-believers are going to hell.

Why have any religious leader involved in the inauguration, in the first place?

Rob Mule · 1 year ago

In God We Must

Ed Boudreau · 1 year ago

All these Christians that find Warren following the word of GOD as Homophobic, don't seem to understand the problem is religion. When GOD says he created the world in 7 days who can question HIM. Warren is just following the logic of religion. So you liberal Christians that believe in walking on water, resurrection of the dead, virgin birth make it possible for people to claim GOD wants to punish Gay people. So stop blaming Warren for being intellectually honest and start looking at your support for witch craft.

mmedefarge · 1 year ago

Someone had a brilliant idea on a previous post that during Warren's time on stage (I won't call it a prayer, because I don't believe that any g-d exists who would accept his nonsense}, people remove their shoes and hold them over their heads. Security can't deprive people of their shoes in January. So it just could be a really great bit of nonviolent protest, more visible than just turning our backs.

Reminds me of a story how during the Vichy government, the French people were forbidden by the Nazis to say DeGaulle's name, so they would hold up a fishing rod (gaule) in each hand---et voila; deux gaules!

mirth · 1 year ago

What most angers me is, as demonstrated by the inclusion of Warren in the inauguration, Obama's philosophy of inclusion to reach consensus.

Would he have us believe that the very people who supported the weighty heap we now have to dig out from under, who have thus far refused to champion civil rights for all citizens, who from their male mouths exhort misogyny, who feed their love of largess off the poor and gullible, who continually stir the racial and ethnic pots, are the ones who will modify their pronouncements in the cause of common good? Will Warren and his ilk, with continued time at the mic, withdraw their hateful and divisive rhetoric? Will the religious ever recognize the importance of secular government?

Or is it us who are to compromise our beliefs and behaviors?

I tuned this inclusion nonsense out during the campaign, perhaps because I was blinded by love for the promise of his presidency.

But now my love affair is over.

Obama can ease my anger if he rescinds the Warren invitation, but this bell cannot be unrung.

Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas · 1 year ago

I totally agree...worked on the campaign this summer and I am fucking pissed off at him for this shit. I say let's get Caribou Barbie going for 12....the Naderization of the Dems. He is fucking with the wrong faggots.

LowKey · 1 year ago

Even mormons do not believe that Jews are going to hell.

When you are a bigger bigot than a mormon . . . .

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Not as long as you are baptized posthumously against your will.

LowKey · 1 year ago

No, mormons do not believe that jews need to get posthumously baptized in order to avoid hell. They just believe that you must be baptized to get to the highest degree of heaven. Mormons believe in 3 heavens and hell (which they call outer darkness) It is almost impossible, in mormon theology, to get sent to outer darkness.

Good people who are not mormons can go to the second best heaven. Bad people go to the third best heaven.

Rob Mule · 1 year ago

If these folks can believe in clean coal why not clean gay?
Gorgeous, and with the tiniest carbon footprint!

Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas · 1 year ago

Mmmm...well darlin' let's all go down to their imaginary hell together because frankly it will be FAR more interesting than a heaven full of Chimpy, Falwell, Warren, Dobson, et alia. Think of the dinner parties! Oh and fuck you, Rick Warren, fuck you.

I am getting very close to beginning the conversion to Judaism from the Episcopal church. I was raised VERY agnostic and frankly Judaism appeals to me a great deal...the very word "Israel" means "arguing with God". Jews had the Torah 5769 years ago and have been debating its meanings every day since. They question and debate everything with God. Some of my Jewish students ask me really great questions like "What the hell is Immaculate Conception?" "Why is a baby born with original sin?"...my answer? Damned if I know. For me Christian dogma is full of shit.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

It's looking like non-Christians need not apply. OT, I just saw this on the HRC website: "Human Rights Campaign Expresses Concern about So-Called “Provider Conscience” Regulations" which refers the the regs that allow people to not provide health-care services based upon their religious beliefs. What is alarming to me is that HRC expresses "concern" - where is the outrage? Will they be 'mildly irritated' when we are being marched to the death camps? Sheesh.

cmpnwtr · 1 year ago

This is not news, John. All fundies believe that Jews, other non-Christians, even "untrue" Christians are going to hell. Billie Graham believed that Jews were going to hell, so why weren't people outraged when he did the invocation for Bill Clinton??
I don't see your point of workin' up a big hate for Obama because the fundies are fundies.....

hopeless pedant · 1 year ago

It's not just a fundamentalist belief, it is a mainstream Christian belief. Methodist believe it, Lutherans believe it, Catholics believe it, Greek Orthorixites believe it, Episcopalians believe it.

Why is there so much denial about what the Christian church stands for?

Ellie F. · 1 year ago

Excuse me but I'm an Episcopalian (a cradle Episcopalian, actually) and we most certainly do NOT believe that non-Christians go to hell. Yes, we believe that Christ is the "Way, the Truth and the Life" but we believe that Christ HIMSELF is that Way - not our beliefs about him.

I was taught from the time I was small that no human being can ever say who is "saved" and who is not. That is for God to know. We are instructed most pointedly in Scripture not to judge and the most prideful judgment one person can ever visit upon another person is to say that the person is going to hell.

I was also taught that the relationship with God I should be most concerned about is my own.

I was born in 1949, by the way, and so I'm referring to what I was taught in the 50s. This is not some new-fangled, recent, "liberal" teaching.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

I was born one year earlier than you and was raised as a lukewarm Catholic. The main thing that I remember from my catechism classes (as Catholics in the 1950s we did not study the Bible at all), besides the whole venal/mortal sin discussions, was that non-Catholics went to hell. End of discussion. I was horrified, because I lived in a neighborhood in Chicago that had a substantial Jewish population, and many of the businesses were owned and operated by Jews, even a few of them with numbers on their forearms (the significance of which I didn't learn until I was nearly 10). Our doctor was Jewish, and the man who ran the corner grocery store was Jewish.

Are you saying, then, that when John says in his gospel that Christ is THE way, that he doesn't mean that Christ is the ONLY way?

I am a practicing Buddhist, and my salvation (so to speak) comes through my practice. I try to follow the eight-fold path and I meditate. My dogma and doctrine are what I do, not what I think. But my understanding of Protestant Christianity is that salvation comes through faith, and not through acts. If you have faith that Christ will save you, then what happens to those that do not believe in Christ? It goes without saying that, if you believe in one God, an omniscient and omnipotent God, for a mortal to say that a particular person will be going to hell or heaven is an act of extreme hubris. So I understand that proscription. However, I still don't understand how you can be a Christian and believe in the New Testament, especially that very clear passage from John, and not have the understanding that those who do not share your belief will not be saved. How could Christ be "THE way" only to himself? I'm really curious about this, and it may be a great topic of conversation for a group I meet with that regularly discusses religious and philosophical questions, most of which are progressive Christians.

EdNSted · 1 year ago

And it's not just the fundies. Until very recently, the Catholic church taught ('unofficially' they now pretend) that unbaptized babies went to a special non-heaven place called 'limbo'. And in case no one had noticed, the Catholic church in now once again in business of selling indulgences.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

I believe to Limbo also went all those great people like Socrates and Plato, who lived before Christ and therefore had no opportunity to become Christians. Where does Rick Warren think Adam and Eve, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Kings David and Solomon, Isaiah and Daniel are now?

dfsag · 1 year ago

All Jewish people will go to Hell soon

dfsag · 1 year ago

Jews are murdered. And they will pay for that one day soon....

Mum48 · 1 year ago

It's been a while since I've paid attention. (I left the church mentally when I was about 8 and physically when I was 12, a long time ago.) Are you serious about the selling of indulgences? Is it the same principle going by a different name? This sounds fascinating. I love this whole "how many angels are dancing on the head of a pin" thing. It's so Umberto Eco!

Mum48 · 1 year ago

I actually forgot that Graham did Clinton's invocation. He was every bit as bigoted as Warren is. I actually don't remember much about Clinton's inauguration at all. I was so relieved to be rid of Reagan and Bush, that I didn't really pay attention.

We have had to suffer the depredations of the right-wing fundamentalists over the past 28 (28!) years, and we are seeing that we may be moving into a period where their stranglehold on our "culture" is failing. The conjunction of the passage of Proposition 8 in California and the other anti-gay measures with the choice of Warren as invoculator (my neologism) has really put his bigotry in high relief. Had similar circumstances existed at the time of Clinton's inauguration, we might have been outraged at the choice of Graham also.

Something tells me that the choice of Warren may not turn out to be the triumph that Warren himself seems to think it is. We hear a lot about his work on AIDS and poverty and the like, and he has that best-selling book, but it doesn't seem that much of his bigotry (and he has actually made some pretty stupid statements) has been mainstreamed. It may be that this exposure will take some of the bloom off the rose for those mainline and progressive Christians who have held him in some esteem. And we already know what the fundamentalist evangelicals think of his coming over to the dark side by even agreeing to deliver the invocation.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out, especially if the California Supreme Court overturns Proposition 8. We could be surprised again by Obama's savvy and wisdom. THAT wouldn't surprise me.

smiling_dog · 1 year ago

Okay, I have my own religious and spirtitual ideas, but that's just it - they are my own. I am so tired of these faux Christians who think they have some understanding of what God wants or what God thinks we should be doing with our genitalia. Warren isn't too much different from what you hear from the Pope or a typical Catholic priest. Then you have the Mormons.
These patriarchal religious figures have no place in the political arena. Instead of arguing about which one of them least offends our liberal sensibilities, let's work on getting them off the f**king stage!

Rob Mule · 1 year ago

Keep the tourist element...Your 'Running of the Bulls' or 'Electing of a Pope'...

samiinh · 1 year ago

Warren's decision to accept an invitation from a liberal president is as clear a symbol of the entry of evangelicals into mainstream culture as one can imagine. In the conservative Christian subculture, liberals are treated with scorn. In the real world, they control the White House and Congress. How many evangelical preachers will be able to demonize Obama once Mr. Evangelical himself has blessed him? By opposing Warren's choice with such vehemence, the left seems determined to drive evangelicals back to the world of victimology and conspiracy-mongering. This is not wise.

Warren's decision to accept Obama's invitation comes shortly after the resignation of Richard Cizek from the National Association of Evangelicals for supporting same-sex unions. Although the left may not realize it, Obama's election will lead the more extreme right-wing Christians to purge their ranks of people such as Cizek--and Warren. Maybe we should encourage them to do so, for this will weaken them politically by drawing them even further from the center. But the better course is to help redraw the political map. This is what both Obama and Warren are doing. They are smarter than their critics on both sides realize.

http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=77a79...

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Sorry, I don't buy it.

Bob Francis · 1 year ago

I am a Christian, and I don't believe that Jews are going to hell. However, Rick Warren, like many conservative, fundamentalist Christians believes that the Bible is literally true (I don't), and the Bible in the New Testament definitely says that unless you believe in Jesus Christ you will go to hell. So, it comes down to whether or not you believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. That doesn't necessarily make Warren a bigot.

Gridlock · 1 year ago

Right, I love how "believing in the bible" makes any kind of bigotry acceptable.

I'm not homophobic, I'm christian!

I'm not racist, I'm christian!

As long as I have my magic sky fairy to hide behind, I can say any ol hateful thing and it's acceptable.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

As St. Paul so eloquently put it, "slaves obey your masters." QED slavery is acceptable behavior for Christians. I'm not a supporter of slavery, I'm a Christian!

hopeless pedant · 1 year ago

There's not accepting literal interpretation of the Bible (including the Old Testament), and then there is denying the essense of Christianity (which is accepting the belief that only through Jesus comes salvation, and the alternative is damnation.) That is the core belief of the religion - to say you are a Christian if you don't believe that is like saying you can be a Muslim and not believe that Mohammed was not God's prophet.

This is why religion is such a problem in this country - people want to be accepted as Christians without understanding what it means.

I understood, that's why I left.

This discussion is really revealing and exposes a lot of faultlines that really need to be exposed.

Dave of the Jungle · 1 year ago

I'm not a Christian but I believe that Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity are going to hell.

tlsintx · 1 year ago

snort! me too.

EdNSted · 1 year ago

Some very well-intentioned people argue that we should not throw out the baby with the bath water here. I would argue that if they look very closely they'll discover there is actually no baby in the bath water.

RainbowPhoenix · 1 year ago

I suggest you look even closer.

mmedefarge · 1 year ago

When I was around 8 years old, I announced smugly to my best friend Bethie that she was not going to be able to go to heaven unless she became a Catholic. I upset her enough (maybe I actually did tell her she was going to hell) that she went crying to her parents, who then came over to my house where my extended family of Catholics, Presbyterians, and one atheist uncle were enjoying the aftermath of Sunday dinner. I don't know if things might have been handled differently if there had not been such a big audience, but I still remember being firmly disabused of the notion that g-d loved ANYONE less because of where they worshipped or what they believed (or didn't believe).

But think about it: if whatever church you attend can convince you that it is the only means to salvation, they are guaranteed your membership and your contributions. That is why so many denominations adopt this policy, I guess---part of the business plan. Nothing to do with g-d.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

Amen. The power of brand loyalty!

caerbannog · 1 year ago

A couple of years ago my wife and I attended a memorial service for one of her aunts who had just passed away. What made this event particularly noteworthy is that my wife's side of the family is an interesting mix of Reform Jews, mainstream/casual Christians, and hard-core fundamentalists.

At the memorial service, about 1/4 to 1/3 of those in attendance were Jews. The individual chosen to deliver the eulogy was a long-time friend of the deceased's immediate family and a megachurch minister. At this point, you are probably thinking, "uh-oh". And you would be right.

About halfway through the eulogy, Mr. Megachurch could no longer contain himself, and he went into full hell-fire and brimstone mode. "Without Jesus, you *will* not be saved. If you reject Jesus, there is no plan-b that will keep you out of hellllllllll!". It went on and on like that for what seemed to be eternity.

As we headed out to the parking lot after the service, one of my Jewish in-laws said to me in a bit of a snarky voice, "well it certainly looks like we are all going to hell!". I replied with one of my favorite Mark Twain quips, "heaven for the weather, hell for the company".

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

LOL! Wonderful story. My husband and I attended the wedding of my cousin's daughter in Arizona. (In those days I had to call my husband my "partner" since we couldn't yet marry.) The bride, groom and best man were drunk during the ceremony. Later at the reception the best man was even more drunk when he delivered his little speech. Suddenly he started talking and we all turned around. My husband and I suddenly found ourselves in a very prominent spot right in front of the best man. He began by saying that he and the groom were as close as any two guys could be. Then he looked at us and started stammering. "Well, uh, I mean, uh, not that close. Uh, I mean we never kissed or anything". It went on and on. Each time he opened his mouth it was simply to change feet. But we just stood there politely.

Later as guests at my cousin's home we were seated on a sofa next to one of her friends, a portly middle-aged woman from Tennessee who dressed exactly like Dale Evans. The white cowgirl dress did not suit her at all. Neither did her body language nor expression of extreme discomfort at having to sit beside us. We tried all our skill at striking up a conversation, but the best she could manage was a citrusy nod sans eye contact. On an adjacent sofa sat her teenage daughter and son. The daughter appeared brain dead. The son appeared to be both brain dead and gay, which is something we'd never seen before. Again we were very polite.

I sometimes wonder what became of the best man and the family from Tennessee. But I don't have to wonder what became of my cousin's daughter. She's divorced.

mmedefarge · 1 year ago

Funny story! It reminded me that when I was about fiveor six I had such a huge crush on Dale Evans. I always had to be her when we did our little fantasy plays based on the show. Maybe mama-s son there wasn't the only zombie in denial.

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

LOL! For me it was the Lone Ranger, and I wanted to be Tonto and ride along on the same horse. But then came The Rifleman with Chuck Connors and I wanted to be Mark yelling, "No, Paaw, no!" And that was even before Connors started doing Sunbeam Shaver commercials! Alas I didn't find out about his gay porn movie for decades.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

I was recently reminiscing about all the television westerns I watched as a kid growing up. My father was a huge western fan, and after years and years of denial, I had to admit that I was also a fan of horse operas. (I actually can whistle or hum the theme songs of most of big TV westerns. It's almost embarrassing to admit it!)

I also wanted to be Tonto (when I didn't want to be the horse).

But Chuck Connors, the Rifleman himself, made a gay porn movie?!?! Seriously? It's a good thing that my dad never knew that. Even as liberal as he was (he was strongly and vocally against the Vietnam War), I think it might have been too much for him. Although, I think had he lived through Reagan and Bush, he would have been strongly opposed to Proposition 8 AND Rick Warren.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Clearly, you do not go to dance clubs. Plenty of brain dead young gay guys there.

hamelekim · 1 year ago

With all due respect John, you also think that homosexuality isn't a sin, so your validity as a Christian is suspect.

Anyone who doesn't accept Jesus Christ as their savior is going to hell, PERIOD. It doesn't matter whether or not you agree with it, it's the truth. Calling yourself a Christian when you completely disagree with the central belief of Christianity means you are lying to yourself and to others about your beliefs.

He's right, she is going to hell unless she repents of her sins and believes that Jesus Christ is the son of God, and died for our sins on the cross. Anything else is a lie.

Gridlock · 1 year ago

With all due respect, shove your magic sky fairy bullshit up your ass.

You DO NOT have direct access to any universal truth. Just because YOU think something is, does not simply make it so.

YOu CAN NOT prove your sky fairy exists

You KNOW nothing.

You are GUESSING.

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

I think he is more than just guessing. I think, like so many Christians, he is simply reinforcing his beliefs by repetition. It takes a lot of continual reinforcement to hold on to so many fantastic stories, many of which conflict with each other and fly in the face of reason and common sense.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Yes, totally, it is Christianist rhetoric being used selectively as a cover for pre-existing prejudices. Sad.

hamelekim · 1 year ago

Prophecy is the only way to truly prove that it's true. When you see the things in the book of revelations happen you will either ignore it or believe. This world economic collapse is going to lead to that one world government, you wait and see.

But you are right on one account, it is my belief. I haven't seen God, or spoken to Jesus, I just believe. I believe that Homosexuality is a sin, that doesn't mean I think that people should be forced to live a specific way. People who want to ban any sort of criticism of being gay are just as bad as those who want to ban gay marriage.

Jesus was all about free choice. Why do you think that we have all this evil in the world? God gave us all a choice, and we have made our choice and are suffering because of that.

I don't claim to know any secret truth about why things are the way they are, I just know that an infinitely intelligent and caring God wouldn't allow all this suffering if it wasn't for a purpose. I trust that purpose is just and right and that in the end things will work out as they should.

That said, I won't accept gay's attacking Christians for disagreeing with their lifestyle choice. I also won't tolerate children being force taught that homosexuality is normal and fine when their parents fundamentally disagree with that belief.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

I actually believed that your first comment was rhetorical, and thought that people replying were being a little unkind, but now that I read this earlier comment, I am enlightened, so to speak.

First of all, Jesus was not "all about free choice." Where in the name of Yahweh did you get that? The Jesus of the Gospels was about love and compassion and forgiveness and empathy. That is the central message of the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain, and many of the parables.

Second of all, prophecy is usually read backwards, as it was when the gospels were written in the period after the death of Jesus and the fall of the temple in 70 CE, where the writers looked back into Hebrew scripture and used it to buttress their stories of Jesus' special stature.

And, it is "revelation" (singular), not "revelations." Martin Luther was probably right in wanting to keep it out of the New Testament. It is a madman's nightmare, and to read it as a map of the future is delusional. It has inspired nothing but hatred and madness. There were many, many apocalypses (and many gospels also) written during the decades before and just after the fall of the temple, and I'm not sure that we know why the one ascribed to John of Patmos was chosen as part of the New Testament canon.

People in the LGTB community and their supporters (I am one of many) are not "attacking Christians for disagreeing with their lifestyle choice" (I'll leave the quarrel over whether or not it is a choice to others, as it is irrelevant; and the choice of the word "lifestyle" is ridiculous!). We are protesting the fact that a fundamental right, which is endowed to us by our status as American citizens who have been granted equal protection under the Constitution of the United States of America, is being denied to those of the same sex who wish to enter into a marriage contract. What our founding documents mean is, plainly and simply, that we are all to be treated equally, and have the same opportunities to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Not separate but equal - EQUAL . . . PERIOD.

And your last statement is simply absurd. I don't know of anyone whose children have been "force taught" anything about homosexuality. I am certain that there are many things that are taught in public schools that bigots and homophobes and racists do not agree with. There are probably many people in this country who regret the advances made by the civil rights movement, who regret the dismantling of laws banning miscegenation, who don't believe in free speech (unless it is theirs), who don't believe in the freedom to practice the religion of one's choice (unless it is theirs), etc., and, unfortunately, some of these people have children and use their own private bully pulpit to inveigh against people who are different from them. Unfortunately, though (or fortunately, come to think of it), these are only a few of the basic principles that are part of the structure of this republic that we live in, and, as a consequence, they are taught as part of civics instruction.

Out of curiosity, what other Old Testament laws do you follow, or do you just pick and choose those you like? If you're a woman, do you head for that red tent when you menstruate. If you're a man, are you clean shaven? Have you cut your hair? Do you have a mezuzah on your door post? If you're a man, do you plan to marry your brother's widow? Do you keep kosher? Do you leave gleanings for the poor? Do you eat shellfish? Do you light a fire on your altar every day? Do you burn incense every day? Do you ever embarrass others? Do you ever gossip about others?

Freakaloin · 1 year ago

well he's not right (because there is no heaven or hell.)but he is consistent. john is not...

pdxprobert · 1 year ago

Since you believe in all those myth based fables, I guess you should plan on getting a lump of coal in your Christmas stocking too...

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

There is literally more historical evidence to support the existence of Santa Clause than that of Jesus. Saint Nicholas very likely existed, though fortunately not at the north pole which is currently not a safe place to own a home.

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

But Jesus wasn't the first savior of the world to die on a cross between two thieves. The Indo-Persian god Mithra beat him to it. And Mithra was borrowed from the Egyptian god Horus. They were both popular gods long before Jesus came along and picked up their identities. Truly, if you want to believe in these myths, that fine, as long as you don't force your ways on anyone else. But if you want to sit in judgment on the faith of other believers, or step into politics and determine the civil rights of non-believers, then I must insist that you learn more about the basis of your own religion.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Gosh, you sure better hope you're right about all this. Imagine how embarrassed you'll be if you get to the end of the road only to find out that Zeus or Allah is really calling the shots! Or that Christianity is the true faith, but that Jesus has no problem with homosexuality. (Recall that Jesus said nothing on the subject.) Personally, I think we'd all be a lot better off if we had a little bit more humility and admitted that no one has a monopoly on the truth when it comes to matters of religion, heaven and hell, and so forth. If fear of hell is all that your spiritual life has to recommend it, it seems terribly impoverished to me. If that's the standard, we should all convert to the religion that offers the most majestic view of heaven and the most terrifying view of hell. Islam, anyone?

Mum48 · 1 year ago

"If fear of hell is all that your spiritual life has to recommend it, it seems terribly impoverished to me." Great line!

Actually, this reminds me of something I vaguely remember from either Psych 101 or Ethics 101. A person who does something only out of fear of punishment or retribution is immature (Psych) or inauthentic (Ethics), or perhaps both.

And you're right that there are no "red letter" statements from Jesus on the subject of homosexuality. (However, there is a passage in Romans (1:26-27) that has been interpreted to mean a condemnation of homosexuality. There are a lot of passages in the Pauline letters that marginalize women also. And I have always felt that there are two Christianities (with a third shadow Christianity skulking around). The first, and to me, the most important, is that which is based on the teachings of Jesus, like the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon the Plain, the parables, and the teachings in the Gospel of Thomas (the Fifth Gospel). This is the Jesus Religion. The second, the one which gained ascendancy, is the religion of Paul, the one for which the teachings of Jesus seem to be secondary, but in which the teachings and organizing of Paul are most important, along with the power structure that was built upon Pauline doctrine. This is Paulism, the primary Christianity of the Catholic church and mainline Protestantism. The third Christianity is that of Revelation, which is responsible for a lot of great art and imagery (Dante, anyone?), some pretty scary sermons, some wacko fundamentalist sects, and Tim LeHaye. Enough said.

blackhook · 1 year ago

If there is a 'God', and is 'He/She/It' is omniscient (all-knowing) & omnipotent (all-powerful), why doesn't 'He/She/It' just kill that ol' devil?

I think maybe because ...it would be bad for business?

Freakaloin · 1 year ago

you are not a christian if u don't believe non-christians are going to hell. u can't pick and choose. moderates are worse than fundies imo...

Gridlock · 1 year ago

Funny, christians pick and choose what to believe all the f#cking time.

How about that slavery? How about those blended fibers? How about those shellfish? How about all that female subservience?

DO YOU follow the bible 100%?

No, you don't. Don't be a hypocrite.

pdxprobert · 1 year ago

Amazing, that poster cant even see their own hypocrisy's and claims to not employ the pick and choose buffet style religion.... The more I look at how society and government is structured and how each sect of religion preaches its beliefs, its all about supremacy and superiority... My god is better than your god, my product is better than that product, this football team is better than that one, my dad is stronger than your dad, my house is better than your house, my performance at work is better than yours, my candidate is better than your candidate, my college is better than that college... etc.. etc.. etc.. and I think that positioning is probably a primal instinct ... probably based in survival of the fittest concepts.

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

Which is a pretty good reason not to be Christian at all.

Ellie F. · 1 year ago

Actually, Jesus himself did quite a bit of picking and choosing. (That's what got the religious authorities of his day so upset with him....)

Freakaloin · 1 year ago

actually, jesus never existed...

Gindy · 1 year ago

One of the reasons I stopped believing anything anyone religious said was because they ALL picked what they wanted and left the rest. No gays but eat shell fish, type of crap. I was 9 years old when I stopped buying the BS the Catholic church was hawking, but had to attend all the silly rites and rituals for the next 7 years until I was 16 and told my parents to pack sand.

postdamnit · 1 year ago

I did it at twelve. Never been in a church since.

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

I did the opposite. I threw myself so ardently into the Church I almost destroyed myself. Fortunately that little voice inside me demanded to know why I had forsaken myself.

hopeless pedant · 1 year ago

If Martin Luther King Jr had lived, and had been asked to give the invocation, then, since he was an ordained Baptist minister, he would also be someone who believed that Jews go to hell.

If a rabbi were chosen, then you'd have someone who has as an article faith that Jews were chosen by God to be separate from others, with special privileges and obligations. I find that idea offensive as well.

You can't have someone give an invocation and not offend some people.

Warren's problem is separate and beyond those core beliefs. But believing what Christianity means at its core isn't one of them.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Bullshit! MLK supported gay rights and his wife supported same-sex marriage. He never would have said that Jews are going to hell. Jews were very involved with the civil rights movements of the era.

hopeless pedant · 1 year ago

Sorry, Gary, to disillusion you, but as an ordained Baptist member - which means he took a vow that he accepted Baptist dogma - he believed that unless someone accepted Christ as his savior, he or she was damned, including Jews.

He believed in equality for non-Christians, sure. But please present one iota of evidence that he did not believe the central doctrine of his religion.

Sorry, I know the truth hurts, but you really need to learn what Christianity means and stop living in a fantasy world.

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

The flaw of your argument is that you equate what you think MLK may have believed as a member of his church to what Warren actively and enthusiastically promotes.

hopeless pedant · 1 year ago

The flaw in your argument is that if the same set of circumstances arose - and we have no evidence they ever did - the only evidence we have as to how MLK would have answered it is what the church for which he was an ordained minister believed.

That he was never asked it (remember Warren, who, again, I don't think should be doing the invocation) means the circumstances are different. Warren could have not honestly answered the question any other way, nor could nearly any other Christian clergyman, Catholic, Protestant, liberal, fundamentalist, black, white - again, it, unlike creationism, status of gays, kosher or non kosher, et al - is the CENTRAL tenet of the religion.

He could, had he been asked, honestly answered it any differently than Warren did.

My father is a Lutheran minister. He despite of that is a liberal, was very pro-civil rights in the 1960s. He supports gay rights, does not believe in creationism. He absolutely believes that Jews are going to be damned, as will anyone (including me) who does not accept Christ as his savior.

What part of this core of the whole religion are people not getting? Why are you denying this? It is what Christianity is. The sorry state of affairs is that you can be anti-black, anti-gay but believe Christ is your savior and gain admission to heaven according to the religion, but Gandhi and Anne Frank were damned. You can't be a Christian and not understand that. It is what the religion says.

cw · 1 year ago

Most Christians in the U.S. believe good people of other religions can go to heaven (see comment at top). You are right about the doctrine, but think of all the other doctrinal disputes you hear little about today. Most Catholics don't believe that Protestants are heretics and damned to Hell since they left Christ's Church. On grounds of doctrine, Catholics and Protestants should be at each others' throats, but most have moved beyond that.

There will always be people who are eager to tell others they are going to hell, but we should not act as if they are the majority or that they deserve to be honored at the inauguration.

hopeless pedant · 1 year ago

See above as well.

The beliefs of members is not what is at issue. It is the belief of those Christian clergymen who could be invited to give an invocation. It would be virtually impossible to find one who did not believe that Jews and other non-Christians will be damned to hell, and likewise, if asked in a straightforward manner, would give the same answer Warren did.

Again, he should not be giving the invocation, but by the logic in John's original entry here, neither should virtually any other Christian minister or priest.

DP · 1 year ago

Can I just note that there is no such thing as 'Baptist dogma.' Being ordained a Baptist minister means that a congregation called him to lead them. That means his beliefs were close to his congregation's. One of the joys of mainstream Protestantism (nothing against everyone else) is the tremendous freedom of conscience that even clergy have. I know many Protestant clergy who do not believe in Hell or believe it is only reserved for extremely evil people. You seem to have a totally warped sense of what Christian clergy are required to believe.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

I think we're talking apples and oranges here. Baptist churches are established "congregationally," meaning that they do not have a central governing authority, like the Vatican. However, like all Baptist and Protestant sects, they do have important matters of faith in which they believe. These are doctrinal (dogmatic) statements or confessions of belief that have been developed through the history of each particular sect, and which include such things as belief in the Trinity, the Resurrection, one God, salvation, the Second Coming or Judgment Day, etc. There may be differences from congregation to congregation, with regard to emphasis and interpretation, but If it smells like dogma, and reads like dogma, and is taught and adhered to like dogma, it's dogma. The word "dogma" has probably become tainted, for Baptists and Protestants, through its association with Catholicism, but just because we don't like the name doesn't mean that it doesn't translate.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

Yes, you're right. If you want a member of the clergy to deliver the invocation and you want that clergyman/woman to be someone who either does believe in hell or believes in universal salvation, then your only choice among denominations that have roots in the Abrahamic religions would be a minister who was a Unitarian Universalist, with special emphasis on the Universalism.

According to my understanding of the New Testament, which is what every Christian is supposed to believe in, the only way to God, and heaven, is through Christ PERIOD. And those who aren't saved by faith in Christ are doomed to hell PERIOD. I believe it is in the Gospel of John that the particular statement about coming to God through Christ is found.

I personally would be much, much happier if someone besides Warren had been chosen. As a Buddhist, I would love to hear the Dalai Lama or Thich Nhat Hanh or Pema Chodron. But I know that that would be as likely as having an imam or a rabbi. Warren is a bigot, and some of the statements he has made about members of the LGTB community have been disgusting and totally out of keeping with what I consider to be true Christianity, which to me is living up to the ideals of the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain, and the Golden Rule which came to Christianity through the great rabbi Hillel.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

Correction: "If you want a member of the clergy to deliver the invocation and you want that clergyman/woman to be someone who either does NOT believe in hell . . .

Sorry.

hopeless pedant · 1 year ago

Dr. King's feelings on gay rights were never a matter of public record (they were not even part of public discourse; he died the year before Stonewall).

The only sign of his feelings against at least blatant discrimination come from:

1) His defending of movement leader Bayard Rustin, who was a lead organizor for the 1963 March on Washington, when other leaders wanted him not be be associated with the march because it was known he was gay. King's position prevailed.

2) One private conversation his widow relayed three decades later when she said he had inficated a concern about discrimination against gays.

Discrimination against gays in the 1960s meant something entirely different than it does now.
I'd like to think if he were alive today, King would favor gay marriage. I have no proof that he would have. And the idea that he supported it when he was alive would be absurd.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

MLK's right hand man, Bayard Rustin was gay and they all knew it. Rustin was the architect of the infamous 'March on Washington.' He went to jail for being gay. King helped him out. Not everyone marches in 'lockstep' - just last week Rev. Richard Cizik said he supports same-sex civil unions. He had to step down as the head of his organization but he still is an Evangelical preacher. Just as the Anglican church has a chasm over this - it show that now everyone agrees on this issue. And Coretta King enthusiastically supported same-sex marriage and said that Martin would have too. Oh, I am not religious at all - I loathe most of them, so don't think I am hanging onto any ideal.

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

I don't recall MLK ever saying that Jews were going to hell. Nor do I recall him working to remove rights from anyone. Bad comparison.

Big Daddy · 1 year ago

He should have asked Bishop Vicky Gene Robinson to do the invocation. That would have been more interesting.

Rick Warren is just being honest in answering the question of what he believes. It doesn't mean he's right. It doesn't mean what he believes has any force or effect on who goes to hell. Rick Warren doesn't make the rules or the decisions on such matters.

There's plenty of evangenital preachers that believe and teach fat old Ricky is a hellbound false prophet himself, leading his flock and anyone that listens to him to the fiery furnace.
Whatever!

Is the Prezelect working for gay americans only? I thought he was suppose to be there for everyone?
Why is it such a bad thing for people of differing views to get together and pray in sincerity to their Creator for help? They're making an attempt to keep an open mind and work together. I don't think that's a bad thing. It's really a step in the right direction.

Throwing a hissy fit because immediate gratification is not realised is not becoming of adults but of small spoiled children and bratty teenagers.

"You can't always get what you want."
Adults deal with that. Brats throw temper tantrums.

RitornaVincitor · 1 year ago

I'll overlook the outrageous things you've just said about gay people because clearly you don't understand. Try instead to imagine Obama choosing an outspoken atheist who believes Christianity has ruined America, and who worked tirelesly and sometimes successfully to remove civil rights from Christians. Try to imagine your reaction to seeing his opinions elevated and honored by being chosen as the man to deliver the invocation at the inauguration of Barack Obama at the dawn of his presidency. If that doesn't persuade you to rethink your statement, then I will conclude that you have no concern for gay rights and are only concerned that there be no controversy involved with the inauguration.

Big Daddy · 1 year ago

All this controversy has done is give Rick Warren more press than he could have ever paid for. For him any press is good press. It's good for book sales.

It hasn't elevated his opinion or honored it so much as recognized it. Like it or not, it's an opinion shared with most of the people that voted for Obama.

Even if my life depended on it, I couldn't name the last minister that gave the invocation for the last inauguration or for any single one of the previous presidential inaugurations since George Washington . I would bet money that everyone one of those ministers had controversial views on who deserved civil rights and who didn't. From your writing and some others I would think the gay community was the first and only group ever to be denied civil rights in this country. What a perspective on US history the rights of others that is.

Thanks to all the hellraisers, Rick Warren will be forever burned into my memory as the man that set the world on fire by praying to God for Obama and the United States on his inauguration.

I'm pretty sure I could have gotten through the rest of my life without having to know that.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

You make a good point about Warren getting attention, but it was unnecessary in your original post to characterize those who complain and protest his selection as brats, etc. However, bear in mind that a lot of the publicity that is being elicited by Warren's selection is negative. I know a few progressive Christians who have come to admire him and quite a few others who have read his book and been influenced. More likely than not, however, these people were not aware of some of the more inflammatory and bigoted of his comments. Unless they prefer to keep their heads in the sand (and most of them do not have a history of ignoring the obvious), they will find it hard to hold the same untarnished opinion of him in the future.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

Are you attempting to characterize gay people by calling them brats throwing temper tantrums? Seriously?

Let's see, what right should we deny to you. Perhaps we can take away your right to free speech, because you have (I'm just being hypothetical here) red hair, and people with red hair are not allowed to exercise the right to free speech. Or maybe we'll take away your right to due process because you are (again, hypothetical) left-handed, and we know that left-handed people are sinister and don't deserve due process. Then we'll take someone who fully approves of taking those rights away from you and others like you and give him or her a position of prominence in an important public national political event. And when you and those left-handed redheads complain, or petition their government for change, or march, or discuss your discontent with others, we will label you as a bratty teenager, "trowing a hissy fit." Of course, judging from your comment, you may well decide not to protest, so that those people who took those rights away from you might think that since things are going so swimmingly, why not take away some more?

wearing out my F key · 1 year ago

"a woman stood up, proclaimed her Judaism, and asked... if she was going to burn in hell."

are you going to hell?

short answer, "yes", with an "if".

long answer, "no", with a "but".

~Dawn · 1 year ago

Why is this news.. most all fundie christians believe that belief in Jesus is the ONLY way to get out of hell. I would have been amazed if he didn't say yes.

cw · 1 year ago

http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2005/08/Newsweekb...

Just to give you an idea of how extremist Rick Warren's position is, 68% of evangelical Christians believe a good person of another religion can go to heaven. That number rises to 83% among non-evangelical Protestants and 91% among Catholics. If you believe someone is damned to hell, they become subhuman to you, much like how a racist sees certain people as less than fully human. Remember that even GW Bush has said that he thinks Muslims and Christians pray to the same God. Rick's position makes him a political extremist and while he has every right to hold that view personally, he should not be honored at the inauguration.

hopeless pedant · 1 year ago

That poll is of members, not clergymen. Poll the ministers/priests of those members, and 95-99% of them would say that Jews and other non-Christians are damned. And when talking about giving an invocation, only clergymen need apply.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

You are right. Among evangelical Protestant ministers and Catholic priests, Warren's position is not as extreme as we would like to believe. The flock doesn't always follow every dictate of their particular denomination. That is why they need a minister, right? To lead them in the path of the righteous, especially as they seem to keep straying from that path. Perhaps 95-99% may be a bit high, but, when talking about clergy, 68% is probably much too low.

February · 1 year ago

Obama's New Pastor Problem? by Alan Wolfe
Why Rick Warren's acceptance of Obama is more important than Obama's picking of Warren.

In reacting to Barack Obama's decision to invite Rick Warren to deliver the invocation at his inaugural, the left has been focusing on Obama's decision to offer, while the right has been focusing on Warren's decision to accept.

The right has it right

Warren's decision to accept Obama's invitation comes shortly after the resignation of Richard Cizek from the National Association of Evangelicals for supporting same-sex unions. Although the left may not realize it, Obama's election will lead the more extreme right-wing Christians to purge their ranks of people such as Cizek--and Warren. Maybe we should encourage them to do so, for this will weaken them politically by drawing them even further from the center. But the better course is to help redraw the political map. This is what both Obama and Warren are doing. They are smarter than their critics on both sides realize.
http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=77a79...

HarpoSnarx · 1 year ago

I for one believe that no one shall pass into heaven after Ayatollah Warren because his fat, arrogant, gluttoneous ass will be wedged in the Pearly Gate's turnstile.

Gwendolyn Carter · 1 year ago

This past week I visited with inlaws who are evangelicals. They do not belong to the Rick Warren sect of evangelical beliefs. They are people of color (black). I am Catholic.

Because of President-Elect Obama's choice to invite Reverend Warren give the invocation at his inauguration, we talked about certain faith-based topics: who is saved, who will go to heaven, witches, and others. There are many religious denominations that have some narrow, judgmental and ungenerous teachings. The people who follow these teachings are good people who, because of their faith, follow the teachings of their church. I think all of us need to be more generous in spirit.

I am a black catholic. I believe the teachings of the catholic church. However, the catholic church gave permission for the African slave trade. The catholic church defined blacks as non-human. There are many, many historical acts of discrimination against black people by the cathoilc church. But it is my faith!

In fact the constitution of my country, America, defined my ancestors (and me) as 3/5ths of a person. The men in my family shed blood for this country in many wars, WWI, WWII, Korean, Viet Nam, just to name the most recent conflicts. I love my country, and I would give my life to save my country. Sometimes we need to hear each other, and we all need to be more generous.

I am sure that President-Elect Obama realizes Reverend Warren provided a "set-up event" for John McCain to shine during the spiritual conversation televised during the general election. The President-Elect has apparently forgiven the reverend and turned the event into a teaching moment for the nation. Maybe this is what he wishes for this event as well. Let us try harder to work together, and let us not be the judgmental ones!

lovepeaceandallthat · 1 year ago

Just curious... are protests being planned at the inauguration? Sit-downs at the airport perhaps? I know many aren't attending because of this, but I was wondering if something organized was happening. Or perhaps such plans are under wraps.... sorry.

Also, does ANYONE have any insights into Obama's thinking on this. I mean, after him reading/listening to all the protesting voices. Anyone have an inside scoop on what he is thinking/doing....

vkobaya · 1 year ago

I know many aren't attending because of this

Ah ha! Ah ha! That's it. The DC police have absolutely put their foot down and said that DC cannot possibly accomodate the 4 million people crowds expected for Obama's inauguration and that they must do something to keep people from attending. They wanted to set up fences and gates with machine guns outside the city to machine gun down 3/4 of the people who approached the city, but Obama had a gentler plan. Make himself a revolting figure by embracing bigotry and thus most of those who planned attend would decide to stay home and not even watch the inauguration on TV.

My guess is the bean counters in his new administration also said that they could not afford the bill for such a massive crowd and it would be cheaper to bury them in mass graves. So, you see, Obama just is choosing a kinder, gentler way of keeping down the crowds attending his inauguration and avoiding the bloodshed and violence that would be necessary if there were 4 million adoring people mobbing him on his inauguration. But then even digging mass graves for 3 million bodies would be a massive expense and others are suggesting cremation ovens and recovering the gold, glasses, teeth, shoes and clothes from the bodies to cover the cost of the fuel and even make a worthy capitalist profit.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

You are not funny. At all.

mauro7inf · 1 year ago

"I don't believe the things you believe are necessary for going to heaven. Do you believe I'm going to heaven?"

Seriously, there's no other way Warren could answer that. It doesn't mean he's a bigot; it just means he believes that his religion is correct and that others aren't. It's a fairly difficult theological point to argue that someone is going to heaven by thinking the wrong things if he or she has been told what the right things are. If her version of Judaism had a hell, it might also stipulate that Rick Warren, by not believing in her version of Judaism, is going to it. (The Bible, incidentally, doesn't mention a hell or heaven or an afterlife, except that the dead go to Sheol and can't praise Yahweh there, so if Yahweh saves them from death, they can continue to praise him for a while longer. But that's kinda irrelevant here.)

It's a sad fact that religions are often exclusive. We have this culture of respect for other religions in the US, but not only has this ideal not been attained after hundreds of years, but it has to be imposed externally, because respect for other religions does NOT come naturally given the concept of what a religion is: a system of belief not necessarily subject to the world's changing moralities. I don't think that, for this occasion, Rick Warren is a bigot against non-Christians. He believes, as is natural, that there is a small set of ways of thinking about deities that are right, and that thinking outside this set is wrong and merits divine punishment. Blame his branch of Christianity, and blame him for adhering to it, but bigotry is going too far.

As for me, I'm Jewish AND I'm an atheist, so, to Rick Warren, I'm going pretty far down in hell. But since I believe that my way of thinking is correct and that his is not, I don't believe I'm going there, and Rick Warren will have only oblivion when he dies (unless Yahweh comes alive from the literature and snatches him up to the sky like Elijah). The nice thing about the afterlife is that you can't verify it anyway. ;p

chasemonster · 1 year ago

Obama wishes he was white. That's why he's letting this despicable pig Rick Warren speak at his inauguration.

LowKey · 1 year ago

Well he got his wish granted when he was born then. Cause he is white.

brownbear60 · 1 year ago

he's already half way there you idiot!!

vkobaya · 1 year ago

I wish she had retorted that by the tenets of Judaism, he (Warren) was damned forever as he was not a one of God's Chosen People.

stymie · 1 year ago

here it is again..A science professor 's final exam had one question, Prove that hell is expanding or getting smaller. The answer of an A student was; First we know that there are many religions in the world, and many have a concept of heaven or hell. And they say your soul will go to hell or to heaven. If you do not abide by the laws of the religion then you'll go to hell and if abiding you'll go to heaven. Many religions also say that if one is of another faith they will go to hell, regardless whether they were a good person or not. So we can assume that there are a bunch of souls going to hell by actions, non faith or other faith. If hell expands at a lesser rate than the souls going there there will be an increasing pressure, thus an increase in temperature (hot) meaning it will be exothermic and give off heat. It can contract and also increase in pressure and heat. The same rate of expansion as souls enetring hell gives no temperature change. A greater rate of expansion than souls entering would cause lowering pressure , thus a decrease in temperature, (cold) meaning its endothermic, absorbing heat. Which rate is it? The student continues, stating, since my freshman year I tried to sleep with XXXX and have always been rebuffed, with the most recent adavnces having been met with, "It will be a cold day in hell before I ever sleep with you.!!" . So the student concludes that hell must be hot otherwise the advances would be successful, and if hot then it is expanding at a rate less than souls entering, or contracting.

dd · 1 year ago

Not sure why there were audible gasps when Warren told her that. Having grown up in an evangelical, Southern Baptist environment (luckily, I evetually escaped) that is exactly what fundamentalist Christians believe. And yes, they believe all kinds of crap about Catholics too. It's religious bigotry at its best (worst). Warren's brand of Christian love and acceptance is very exclusive.

Interesting that his church has a webpage stating that unrepentant gays are not allowed to be members. Since Warren is equating being gay with sinning, are unrepentant adulterers also disallowed from membership? Unrepentant liars? Unrepentant tax cheaters?

-

CitizenX · 1 year ago

Yep. I went to a four square and faith chapel fundie church with my ex for most of 18 years. If you do not believe as they do you are condemned to hell. I had many an argument with them about it. To hear them tell it, Mother Theresa is condemned to Hell. Make no mistake, this is how fundies believe.

Observer · 1 year ago

Those experiences may be true, but they were from people who misinterpret the Bible and what God truly means by it. They also probably spoke about in the wrong way. Christians believe that if you do not repent your sins and let Jesus lead your life, then you will be punished for eternity because He has given grace and mercy to all of humanity (which He created to be like Him) for their sins and wrongdoings. By rejecting Him and the signs He has given of Himself, the earth, animals, outer space, human beings, you are telling Him that you don't want to be a part of all that He has provided for his children in this life and for eternity. We are His children and much like children who are rebellious or disobedient are punished, so will those of us who choose to disobey what God told us to do. God's love, which some refer to as Christian love (although to some they are sadly different), is not exclusive. He loves everyone (meaning the entire world) unconditionally, even if they do not believe in Him or all that He has done (for them). His love is fully inclusive because ANYONE can be part of God's family no matter what their background or past is. Maybe at some churches membership is exclusive (I don't know because I have never been to one) but that is not the way God intended for people to reach out and love others. Also, Pastor Warren's equation of sin and homosexuality, although blunt, is Biblical. The Bible is what he teaches from and therefore, he was responding according to those princicples. Those are the same principles on which Christians base their beliefs. Many people can misconstrue them, however, in their attempts to share them with others. Don't let what one person says be the only reason why you don't listen. If everyone is supposed to go through life with an open mind, it would be hypocritical to let one experience or person be the reason why you rejected the clear resounding message all around.

BrianNY · 1 year ago

Hey Observer, open your eyes as well as your mind. I dare you.

What kind of God would allow all those children to starve in Africa, or have to live through such horrors in Darfur? He loves them? With love like that, Observer, you can have your God.

You say that they are all his children? What would you think of a parent who would turn his back on such tragedies .. to his own children? I'd want him locked up.

Get real, man. Or else stop telling others about going through life with an open mind.

observification · 1 year ago

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone.

Thought not.

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

By the way, since most Evangelicals say cheating in one's heart is as bad as the actual act of cheating then what was it Rick Warren said about wanting to have sex with every beautiful woman he sees? He said it was wrong for gays to have multiple sex partners just as it would be wrong for him to act on his lust for all those beautiful women he just KNOWS would want to have sex with his fat ass?

Observer · 1 year ago

He was saying that it is wrong for him to follow every natural instict and please every desire he might have. He never said they all would want to he was just saying that he had to keep himself in check because it was the right thing to do.

Mum48 · 1 year ago

The author of the "Nation" article was right. Given Warren's particular denomination, there was only one way to answer her question, and he gave that answer. A Unitarian Christian, or a UCC Christian, or a Quaker might have answered differently, but my guess is that most Christian ministers, including Catholic priests, would, if they were being true to their dogma and doctrine, would answer in much the same way.

margalit · 1 year ago

Jews don't believe in an afterlife. No heaven or hell. So what he says really doesn't matter one bit. Because he's wrong. And a moron.

Doc Science · 1 year ago

Warren's comment is no different than what most Evangelical Christians, Mormons, or even Muslims believe in their faith being the only path to heaven. It's dishonest to say that Warren isn't typical of many Christians who believe that only through Jesus can salvation be found. That's the whole purpose of being "born again."

observification · 1 year ago

This country is hell. Period.

BrianNY · 1 year ago

So you don't believe that she's going to hell because she denies Christ. Hmm. I guess that's fine. In fact, I would agree with that.

But, then, exactly who is going to hell? Based on what? Millions believe that it is you, in fact, who are going to hell because you don't believe in Mohammed's teachings. It's all so subjective isn't it?

Let's face it .. there is no physical "hell." And there is no "heaven" either. In truth, one has to deny their own common sense to think there is a "god" at all. Do you really believe that such a superior being would allow all the horrors, famine, etc., in this world? And if you were right .. then is not "god," who you regard as the source of all that is good, in reality, one seriously bad SOB? Come on, be honest with yourself for once.

In order for these "believers" to be believers, in fact, they have to stop any objective thought and strictly base their opinions on "faith." And what is this "faith" they profess? Something someone scribbled down at about the time they discovered the wheel I think. We laugh at those who think God doesn't want women's faces to be seen in public. How silly. But at the same time, we profess to believe Noah and his family was stranded on an ark for six weeks of torrential rains which, in the process, drowned the rest of the population.

Wow. I myself think of the thousands and thousands of poor bastards who didn't make the boat. Hold on, what's that you say? Oh, they must have been "sinners?" Screw them?

No thank you .. I believe in my own two eyes, my brain, and history and science. I think it's the "people of faith" who are the real "non-believers." They are the ones who insist on separating humans from one another - Jews, Muslims, Christians, etc. - and causing much of our international (and, now that I think about it, domestic) problems.

In your heart you know I'm right.

MeFromPhilly · 1 year ago

Wait a second! It just dawned on me that since Noah was Jewish, and everybody else drowned, all humans living on earth are Jewish! Hey! I we may just have solved the Middle East Crisis! Let's tell the Palestinians that they are really Jewish! Also, Neo-Nazis, The Chinese and the Africans, the Native American and specially pastor Rick Warren!
I am really, when you start thinking about it, it is all crazy! I remember this song: "Imagine there is no heaven, above us only sky!"

BrianNY · 1 year ago

That's a thought .. that we're all Jewish via Moses.

I wonder if he circumcised all the animals as well.

Boy, you got me thinking here, MeFromPhilly. We better check our bibles, find out the truth.

Amen · 1 year ago

You're obviously not a Christain otherwise you'd know that anyone who does not believe in Jesus Christ is doomed to hell - even a Jew.

Paul · 1 year ago

@Amen: Ah, the irony. If you were a Christian - or intelligent in any way - you'd know how to spell it. And what you mean is, "You're obviously not FROM MY NARROW SECT OF CHRISTIANITY". Those who can read what Jesus says and think that he wanted to condemn good people to hell because they didn't convert to Christianity. Sad. No - weak, hateful and pathetic.

Jay - TN · 1 year ago

You people are satisfied with nothing... In your eyes Obama could not have made a correct decision. Had he chose not to have a minister at all, people would start the muslin non-sense again, had he picked a left leaning preacher, some would say the man is just a liberal nuts, had he picked a Rabbi Christians would denounce him, now that he chose somebody that doesn't even share the same views that he does people want to hang the man for treason. Treason is to be gay and republican, treason is to believe that Regan did this country a favor, treason is to believe the Bush administration has committed no crimes, treason is to spend money on financial institutions that bankrupted millions of working families, treason is to tell a middle class man/woman you need to take a second full-time job to pay for you mortgage that has not doubled... Only fools believe anything without questioning... The bible itself if filled with stories of people that questioned God's orders and commands. You have free will and you are free to believe whatever you want... Be you Christian, Muslin, Jew, Catholic, Agnostic, or whatever else... Life is a quest for truth, you can't just go along and think you will get there... Wake-up!!! The only reason we are where we are is because we refused to ask questions at a time when it mattered. Why do people think that Universal Healthcare is a bad thing? I have been to countries that sponsor it and people live much better then we do... Why must we pay fortunes to acquire education? Is Health and Education not a right to all of us? Or has that become a privilege? Since when living in a equitable world a bad thing? I don't mean all must equal, but all must have the same opportunities to succeed. And NO we do not have that right now. Every American child, from birth, should have unlimited access to healthcare and education. How can anyone argue with that? Let's stop trying to save people hundreds of miles away and start "really" caring for those who are close to us.

eddie preas · 11 hours ago

Jesus said that he was the truth and the light no man will come to the father except through him. He also said he that has the son has life, he that does not have the son has not life. Pretty simple.