DISQUS

devlzadvocate · 5 months ago

The burqa has come to symbolize oppression of women, but if you are going to make it unwelcome in your land, it seems you have to make a statement about a lot of other things regarding treatment of women that your homies perpetrate that have nothing to do with the burqa - domestic abuse, rape, workplace discrimination and general 2nd class citizenship. A burqa is really the very TIP of the iceberg.

Butch1 · 5 months ago

When a foreigner is in Iran or any other country, they are expected to follow the laws of that land, regardless. Non Muslim women are expected to follow the dress code in many of the more conservative Muslim countries. France has a right to set what its culture is or wishes to be and dictate that to those foreigners coming from the Middle East or other areas of the world. They need to respect the country where they plan to reside and follow the laws of that country as well if they are going to stay there. It isn't a "one-way street" where all Muslims have to follow their law regardless of what country they are in and force others to accept it. If they don't like it, they can always leave just like foreigners in their countries. Why would a country have to accept female circumcision or other forms of mutilation just because it is in the culture of the foreigner wishing to live in a new country? If France does not want the burqa to be worn for women's rights reasons, then so be it.

markf217 · 5 months ago

Nuns and priests don't go around wearing hoods that only reveal their eyes through through a slit covered in gauze. I totally respect other cultures. That is why I don't think Middle Eastern fundamentalist values should be imposed on Europeans or Americans. Why should Saudis and others not have to respect French culture when they are in France? The burqa is not native to France. If immigrants don't like French policy and culture, they should not go to France. I am a gay man. I don't like the way Saudis and Iranians treat gay people. So I choose not to visit those places. That seems really simple. And I wonder how the TSA in the USA handles women in burqas who want to board an aircraft. Don't they have to take their hoods off at some point to confirm that their identity matches their passport photo (and that Johnny Jihad or Michael Jackson isn't hiding out under there). I think you will find that burqas are not 100% protected attire in the USA. A Florida court in 2005 rejected a woman's demand to appear on her driver's license picture wearing a burqa hood with slits for the eyes. If you can appear in a burqa hood on a driver's license photo, don't you think some GOP KKK member might say that his religious beliefs dictate that he should be able to be pictured in a KKK robe and hood on his driver's license with only his eyes showing through holes in the hood? In a way, this amuses me. After years of hearing fanatics scream "Death to America" maybe they will leave the USA alone and start chanting "Death to France." I wouldn't support a specific ban of the burqa . In this era of terrorism, I would support banning the use of hoods which mask a person's face in public (as a way to protect the public).

mirth · 5 months ago

Great comment, markf217. I completely agree with it and I salute Sarkozy.

markf217 · 5 months ago

I like what Sarkozy is doing, but if he used the security argument about opposition to people wearing hoods with eye holes as opposed to the whole "degrading to women" and "alien to French culture" shtick, I think he might get more traction.

mirth · 5 months ago

Agreement again about traction; however, I think both arguments are equally right and should be made.

Vive la France

markf217 · 5 months ago

I agree with both arguments, too. But the anti-hood argument would be a much easier sell than the anti-burqa argument. Vive la France libre!

mirth · 5 months ago

Yes. A sad truth.

randysmith · 5 months ago

Mark, If your TSA query is serious:
A female agent takes them into one of the private examination rooms where they can remove the burqa in a culturally proper manner [only other women present!]. No worse than any other "strip search" of a woman....

markf217 · 5 months ago

thanks randysmith, it was a serious query. I do think being asked to take a hood with slit eyes off is not the same as being strip searched.

randysmith · 5 months ago

Mark,
I think you and I have the same view of "strip search", but there are far too many "prudes" in this country and the TSA is IMHO overly "PC" when it comes to revealing body parts and articles of clothing in airport security areas. [Consider the "full body" scanner making its appearance in various airports.]
FYI, I travel far too much, including into dominantly Moslem countries. I've become overly acquainted with airport security and I know quite a few TSA and airline personnel personally. The TSA considers a "strip search" to be any request to remove articles of clothing that would reveal clothing [ie undergarments] or body parts not normally visible in public. Such activities are conducted in a private examination area.
I admit that I am a bit uncomfortable seeing the Burqa clad [I always assume women], especially in areas considered "high security" -- ie, airports. But I also assume that if I went through a security screen they did too. So even if they somehow exchanged their garments with someone else once inside the secure area, I just look away.... I feel the chances of being involved in an airport/aircraft event is fairly low as things go.....
As for the French ban, I agree with the posters who think that banning masks in all circumstance would be a better approach. I can easily see businesses posting signs to the extent "Service denied to persons who faces are not visible...." They should certainly be banned for driving and similar activities where full vision is required...

Steve_in_CNJ · 5 months ago

"I am a gay man. I don't like the way Saudis and Iranians treat gay people. So I choose not to visit those places"

i am sympathetic with sarkozy, but i don't get this particular line of thinking.
should we care about gay couples from cedar rapids whose company transfers them to grand rapids? would you ever visit utah? it's a beautiful place.

markf217 · 5 months ago

I am not aware of places in the USA where gay people are stoned, beheaded, or hung from construction cranes for engaging in the "crime" of same-sex behavior. After the Supreme Court ruling on Lawrence V. Texas in 2003, there are no longer any sodomy laws enforced anywhere in the USA. Yup, Utah is a beautiful place and all of those clean cut Mormon missionaries are adorable. I think gay marriage should be universal. But being deprived of the right to marry because you are gay is not the same as being deprived of life because you are gay.

Steve_in_CNJ · 5 months ago

i would always avoid telling people who are unhappy with the way they're being treated that they can just go somewhere else. it's better to give a reason.

TomH · 5 months ago

yes that's right...if you're in Rome, be like Romans....

Name · 5 months ago

I don't know if Burkas oppress women, but there is a strong correlation between countries that permit/mandate the majority of women wearing burka or scarves and having their women oppressed or treated as 2nd class or under educated.

Actually, when women suffer, the whole society suffers.

ShirleyGoodnessanMercy · 5 months ago

No country has complete religious freedom. Even in the US certain religious practices are illegal. I am all for banning the burqa. I've dealt with women wearing them... they are hideous and dehumanizing and have no place in a country where women are valued as more than slaves.

markf217 · 5 months ago

I don't like religion mixed in with politics, even the practice of praying to a deity at the inauguration is too much for me. I hope we have a president in the future who (instead of having Rick Warren pray to Jesus) will want sacrifice a goat or chicken (or maybe burn a virgin on a pyre) on the steps of the U.S. Capital as a way of asking the deity's blessing on the new administration. This might make people decide they don't want religious practitioners involved in politics and they don't want religious promotions at secular, civic events.

Griffon · 5 months ago

The burqa does not appear to be a woman's or a cultural 'choice.' It is simply a doctrine imposed before each woman is born.

The idea that it is a necessary practicality does not explain why it isn't used and/or shared by men of the same culture. As with Catholic celibacy, such cultural doctrines were established partly for control by the religious body, and partly out of ignorance or denial of equality. Practices such as bleeding, demonizing personal hygiene and wearing heavy woolen clothing in oppressive summer heat, by fiat of the church, have all been challenged and jettisoned for their dogmatically unproductive and oppressive abuse for the sake of demonstrating 'faith.'

While there will always be attempted personal abuses visited on the 'faithful' by a staid and regressive religious body, it can hardly be characterized as a 'choice' when there is no alternative offered concurrently with that of donning a burqa, save expulsion and threats of damnation and ostracism from one's culture. Hardly a 'choice.'

As is so much of its' western counterpart, it is a form of brainwashing and manipulation for the sake of control and oppression.

An_American_Karol · 5 months ago

And to add insult to injury, I read women wearing burqas can not see very well and are more likely to get hit by cars. Apparently this is a common occurrence in Afghanistan, not to mention the oppressive heat it must cause in warm weather.

TomH · 5 months ago

and the less oxygen air they're breathing..

sallyh · 5 months ago

I am outraged about the burqa. Also, certain orthodox Jews make women shave their heads after marriage - you might recognize them by their wigs or scarves on their head. God forbid that some man find them attractive. I don't see why the women have to cover themselves because men can't control their dicks. Pardon my crude language, but I feel strongly about this.

Zorba · 5 months ago

I'm of Greek ancestry, and I can remember when I was young (as I'm sure you do, too, John) going to church and seeing all the older, widowed Yia-Yias (grandmothers), dressed all in black (even many, many years after their husbands died), fairly long skirts, long sleeves, and black scarves. Did they do this voluntarily? Yes and no. It was a strong cultural thing for most of them- I truly don't think that they would have been comfortable being seen out in public (especially in a Greek Orthodox church) dressed otherwise. Fortunately, my own Yia-Yia wouldn't have been caught dead dressed like this, even though she was born in Greece and brought up steeped in the culture. But then, she was a thrice-married (once divorced and twice widowed), car-driving, canasta-playing, bowling, dancing, working woman who liked to dress in sharp clothing. I'm sure she must have scandalized many in the Greek community at the time, but she didn't care. It was her choice. And again, we get down to free choice.

markf217 · 5 months ago

Greek men are hot!

Zorba · 5 months ago

Well, apparently my grandmother thought so- she married three of them. ;-)

markf217 · 5 months ago

John Aravosis is a Greek man and he is hot.

Just saying.

Sanechick · 5 months ago

It's actually traditionally a cultural form of dress, not a religious one. It predates Islam, and was designed to protect the skin in a harsh sunny climate.

That said, I think it's impossible to argue that it is not used to objectify women at this point. Covering a woman's face, obscuring her from view, steals individuality and identity.

She becomes the walking dead. Human in shape, but without humanity.

SCLiberal · 5 months ago

"It predates Islam, and was designed to protect the skin in a harsh sunny climate."
Then why don't men wear them?

I agree with your post, by the way.

In many cities laws were passed that mandated a man go to jail for assaulting his wife. It took the onus of prosecution off of the victim, who was usually too cowed to press charges. I wonder if the same could be said of the burqa--outlawing it would take the burden off of the women. It would then be a case of "Sorry, I can't wear that thing (that I don't really want to wear anyway) because it is against the law."

An_American_Karol · 5 months ago

Burqas out; topless sun bathing in the south of France is in. Imagine the confusion for these poor women.

SCLiberal · 5 months ago

Confusion such as the thought that "I don't have to be ashamed of my body?"

Zorba · 5 months ago

I have mixed feelings about this. They are signs of oppression, but if an adult woman chooses to wear one, who am I to gainsay her? The operative word is "chooses," and I have serious doubts about how voluntary it is. I've never spoken to a burqa-wearing Muslim woman, but I have spoken to a few scarf-wearing ones, who didn't used to wear the head scarf and chose (apparently freely) to don one after becoming more religious or attuned to Islam, or whatever. Priests, nuns, garment-wearing Mormons, turban-wearing Sikhs, yarmulka-wearing (or even beard and payess wearing) Jews, Orthodox Jewish women who cover their hair, all presumably do so voluntarily. There may be some (or even a lot of) religio-cultural pressure to do so, but they're adults. It's not up to the government to say yeah or nay (except for the examples below involving drivers' licenses, court, and getting on airplanes, etc). Having said that, there are religio-cultural customs that I would ban, and female genital mutilation is one big one (and before anyone hollers about it, I'm not very happy about routinely circumcising boy babies, either). Again, if an adult woman wishes to submit herself to this, that's different. It may be repulsive to me, but I'm not her. It all hinges on "adult" and "voluntary."

GWMustGo · 5 months ago

Two years ago I spent a week in Kuala Lumpur on business. It was hot. Or, as Robin Williams would say, "DANG HOT". If I got within 15 feet of the hotel's front doors, I felt the heat an humidity and started sweating. It was, as they say, hot.

One of the oddest things I saw concerned the burqas. I'd see men in shorts, sandals, and t-shirts, and walking behind them would be (I imagine) their wives dressed head-to-toe in black burqas. It was surreal.

postdamnit · 5 months ago

As the world gets smaller and smaller by the day, I think that commenting on anything by anyone is legitimate. It is the new global society held together by the internet.

Nationalism is a thing of the past really even though it still is very much in. It is a divisive notion that cannot survive in a world that is becoming. over time, more and more homogeneous with the rise of younger people exposed more to a world view. The older generations are, as all those before them, attempting to hang on to the past, their past. With globalization young people are becoming more and more alike. That will, in time, change the dynamics of our lives tremendously.

mirth · 5 months ago

We are not discussing cassocks or a nun habit or orthodox Jewish clothing or zipperless Amish trousers.

We are discussing this.

piltdown · 5 months ago

That's not clothing. That's a gunny-sack to keep your nameless PROPERTY in.

RitornaVincitor · 5 months ago

Maybe France could eliminate burqas in stages. They could go first to midi-burqas that go down to midway between the ankle and the knee. Then after the shock an outrage in the Muslim world subsides they could introduce the mini-burqa. Then the two-piece....

RitornaVincitor · 5 months ago

..... then the bikini burqa..... then the topless bikini burqa.... Of course underneath they would still be fully dressed in modern clothing just as they are now, so this would simply be a gradual transition to modern dress. But the head coverings should be maintained, of course. For women to walk around in public without a bag over their head would be disrespectful.

Chuck · 5 months ago

Don't see how people dressing too conservatively can ever be a legitimate area for government intrusion into private lives. Aside from the need for a facial photograph for government issued IDs, wardrobe and the personal reasons behind wardrobe choice should not be up to public debate.

WHYN0T · 5 months ago

I have simple solution; outlaw clothes.

Zorba · 5 months ago

There are more than a few people I would prefer NOT to see unclothed. ;-)

WHYN0T · 5 months ago

That's why God gave you eye lids!

markf217 · 5 months ago

and people with certain body types should be prohibited from wearing spandex?

An_American_Karol · 5 months ago

I have really mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, the burqa, at least to those of us in the West, is viewed as submissive clothing forced on women by men. On the other hand, it is ethnocentric of us to force our culture on these women who were raised in this belief system.
It's a rough one for me to reconcile.

Mark · 5 months ago

I have trouble understanding how telling a woman she's not allowed to wear a burqa is any different from telling a woman she MUST wear a burqa. Both seem to be ways of controlling what women wear, how they appear in public, and taking away decisions that correctly belong to the individual.

What's next? ACTUAL fashion police? Will they stop women in the streets if they're wearing clothes that aren't flattering?

postdamnit · 5 months ago

Actually, that is not a bad idea from some of the get ups I see people wearing. I think that it should be a law that everyone check the mirror before going out the front door...

Butch1 · 5 months ago

Unfortunately, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan and others presently do that.

Mark · 5 months ago

Um, no kidding. And I think it's terrible to tell women that they have to wear burqas. I think Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Afghanistan should stop forcing women to wear burqas. But the last time I took my globe for a spin, France was not in Saudi Arabia.

Please explain to me how women in France being told that they are not allowed to wear burqas would increase the level of freedom experienced by women worldwide.

Butch1 · 5 months ago

In answer to your question, it doesn't. This appears to be a regional solution to a problem France is having with burqas and doesn't do a thing outside of France unless other countries start doing the same thing. The fact that they restrict the vision of the woman wearing it may be another reason to remove them for safety reasons.

Asterix · 5 months ago

Gotta get those Roman Catholic nuns (yes, I realize that few orders wear them nowadays) to quit wearing those oppressive habits and the priests from wearing those cassocks. Can you imagine how uncomfortable a cassock must be in 120 degree heat?

And while we're at it, let's quit subjugating our judges by making them wear robes, and in some countries, wigs.

One should be able to dress any way one wishes. I should be able to dress like a policeman or wear a speedo to symphony concerts. Or a clown suit to business meetings.

Clothing is a symbol. Like or not, society forces various modes of clothing on us. When we cross the boundaries, we risk censure by society. Just ask the ghost of J. Edgar Hoover...

RitornaVincitor · 5 months ago

Actually a cassock is quite comfortable in hot weather if all you are wearing under it is fishnet stockings and a garter belt. Not speaking from experience, of course.

Butch1 · 5 months ago

Perhaps, we should ask Clarence Thomas how those fish-net stockings are working for him?! He seems to be having too much fun up there. ;-)

cay · 5 months ago

All the ban would do would prevent burqa-wearing women from leaving the house, further oppressing them. If Sarkozy bans them, does he think that suddenly an entire culture will shift and allow women to wear shorts/sundresses/jeans outside?

BeccaMorn · 5 months ago

As Cay notes further up in the comments, if women are prohibited from wearing the burqa in public in France, many (if not most) of them will no longer feel free to be out in public at all.

It *can* be a deeply held personal religious belief that that the height of modesty is to be fully covered when in public places.

I personally do feel the garment is oppressive and intended in several different ways not only to divert the gaze of males, but also to hobble and limit the free movement of women. But that's my feeling -- nobody's making me wear one. True freedom comes from extending that choice to others, even when we do not agree or approve of how that person arrived at that choice.

As someone else noted, if France bans the burqa, they'd best also ban nuns' habits, priests' cassocks, orthodox Jewish clothing, and force all visiting Amish to install zippers on their trousers.

postdamnit · 5 months ago

I don't recall reading anything in his comments, and I read them in the French newspapers, that suggested he was attempting to "prohibit" these cloths.

BeccaMorn · 5 months ago

True, Sarkozy stopped short of calling for a ban. But he nevertheless took it upon himself to say that burqas were "no longer welcome in France." When a leader says something like that, he's making it clear he wants to make the call. Furthermore, he's speaking as the President of France, and so his statements of this ilk carry the weight of a policy preference.

As for others who say that other 'religious wear' is not the same -- no, I say, it is the same from the standpoint of personal freedoms, including freedom of religion and self-expression.

I do feel the burqa is a symbol of repression and I further think women who wear them are both foolish and contributing to their own degradation, but I have no right to tell someone else they may not wear one just because I have a personal objection. Same as I don't go telling Vegas dancers or women working at Hooters that they're degrading our gender. Their choice, they get to live with the life and the consequences.

postdamnit · 5 months ago

Points well taken although I would quibble with you in regard to "I further think women who wear them are both foolish and contributing to their own degradation" as I don't think that in most cases they have much of a choice in the matter. Islam is a male dominated religion and as such females are not really too welcome in making decisions of how things should be. Gays and women have much in common in many areas.

Esurnir · 5 months ago

It's actually planned that there is a legislative debate to ban it. They want to create a "legislative commission to inquire about burqas" which is a first step to find weither or not they should prohibit it.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2009/06/18/010...

Indigo · 5 months ago

How does le président feel about hot pants?

markf217 · 5 months ago

Gummy Bears wearing hoods killed Jesus:
http://kaka-cuuka.com/1412

amitesh · 5 months ago

I believe sarkozy has the idea of a "secular France" in his mind and his commitment towards the goal should be appreciated. But his methods are flawed. you can't bring different people under one roof and cloth them in identical raiment and call the place secular.France can be called secular if and only if the people of France, all of whom are from different racial and ethnical origins, voluntarily respect each other's beliefs and try living together as French. Secularism means respecting a person's beliefs, not judging him by the way he dresses-up or the way he ties his hair or the number of clothes he wears but by appreciating his concern for his fellow countrymen and his dedication towards the welfare of his country. I think France has missed a point in rushing towards secularism and i am positive that Mr Nicolas can make a stich in time and save more than nine.

thecrustybastard_blogspot_com · 5 months ago

MODEST PROPOSAL: Since burkas are necessary to prevent moslem men from being driven mad with lust over the merest glimpse of an unbagged woman, I suggest we simply ban moslem men.

cereal · 5 months ago

One thing to remember is that France does not have the same culture of "personal liberty uber alles" that America does.

Ask 10 French people and at least 8 of them will tell you that while personal liberty is very important, it cannot be allowed to trump certain shared societal values. You are a French person, member of the state, nation, community first, and individual second.

This explains why religious symbols can be banned in government workplaces. Yes, it started as a ban on headscarves, but French people are perfectly happy to ban turbans, crosses, any other symbol of religion if it's worn by post office clerks, public school kids or teachers, police, etc., so as to show.

What these symbols say to French people is "I am a Muslim/Sikh/Jew/Catholic/etc first, and French person second." Which is unacceptable.

Try banning crosses, yarmulkes and so on in American post offices - it would never work. Americans are individuals first, members of their church and family and clubs and businesses second, and members of a single political body last, if ever. Freedom in the US means doing whatever the hell you want with no regard for anyone else at all. Not in France.

fl79tr · 5 months ago

Obligatory


http://www.jesusandmo.net/2007/02/22/hijab/

shahd · 5 months ago

Okay, this is his openion. he never actually asked a lady with a burkha about that. plus what about the females that actually choose to wear it consciously, are those oppressed as well? you are an opperesser your self presedent Sarkozy when you generalize and idea without hearing all sides. If you ban a burkh your denying the women that choose to cover, their rights of doing so, where is the freedom in that. lets say you banned it and muslims from other cultures left, what about the french women that cover will you kick them out of the country or oppresse them?

ReaganiteRepublican · 5 months ago

What if Hillary were to do a Bobby Kennedy in 2012..?

RFK was Attorney General, and when President Johnson's popularity started to slip, Kennedy turned on him... opposed him on the Vietnam War... then ran for President against him in the 1968 primaries.

Anyone telling you today that the Democrats wouldn't run a serious primary challenge against Obama in 2012 -which I have heard often- clearly has no idea what they're talking about.

The hiring of Blumenthal is interesting, to say the least- he's about as loyal a Clintonite Rottweiler as one could imagine... brought on right as Obama's poll numbers begin to slip. Hmmm.

Barack Obama's sort of personality defects and misguided decision-making are the kinds of things that one's political opponents tend to take notice -and full advantage- of.

You can be sure that the Clintons have- and have planned accordingly.

http://reaganiterepublicanresistance.blogspot.com