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Vicki
Wealthy anti-new-dealers' family foundations provided seed money to sponsor the creation of right wing religious groups, movements and institutions to coopt religion. They have a group set up for every major sect. The institute for Religion and Democracy is charged with coopting main stream protestantism. Donohue's group is charged with coopting Catholicism. There's another group out of Seattle that's in charge of coopting evangelical sects (I can't remember the name). There is, I am sure, another group aimed at Jews, particularly orthodox jews.
This is all by design. It's all political.
Jesus' COMMANDED the separation of religion from civics - religious ethics can't make the compromises that civics and law must.
Anyone that violates Christ's command is obviously not really a christian.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-migrant...
I'm not sure how great a McCain endorsement it is when he seems to be accepting the fact that Obama is right on taxes, education, health care, immigration and the economy! Looks more like an Obama endorsement...
The Church never seems to criticize corporations that assist in abortions. Only liberal politicians.
Little girls don't want to have to their daddy's babies. Rape victims don't want to have their villain's child.
Where there is demand, there will be a market. If prohibited, it will be a black market.
So, if you prohibit demand tomorrow, there will still be abortions - back alley, black market abortions.
So, even after you prohibit abortions, to eliminate them, you will still have to persuade people from having abortions.
The thing is - you can persuade people now.
Thus, Abortion is a false issue.
OK, Bishop Martino, you have used a word -- "homicide" -- with precise legal definitions and penalties. Anyone who uses this word needs to be prepared to prosecute, for homicide, women who get an abortion and the abortion providers. There is, by his definition and interpretation, intent, malice aforethought, planning, conspiracy, and aggravating circumstances, so this will be the most extreme kind of "homicide," meaning "first degree murder" or whatever it is titled in a particular jurisdiction.
So, Bishop Martino, lay out for us the prosecutions you envision, the life sentences and/or executions that will result. Tell us how even a woman who has been raped and impregnated will be prosecuted. A young girl. A victim of incest. A woman whose health is in danger. All will be guilty of "homicide." So, lay it all out for us.
Or shut up.
That's all changed now: The school's gone, the nuns are gone, and the new priest is sort of a prig. On the one hand, he left the diocese of Lincoln because that bishop is a conservative whack job, and has expanded the empty convent, and turned it into a 60 bed full-time homeless shelter for women and children (The YMCA runs the shelter for men). On the other hand, he's a vocal Republican. My mom, who still cooks for the shelter, gets into some pretty good arguements with him.
While the church doesn't hold much appeal for me anymore, I am thankful for the priests and nuns I knew growing up, for they and my parents instilled my liberal values in me by their examples. I don't think the kids coming up in that parish these days have those kinds of role models.
Did you know that the Southern Baptist Convention issued a statement in 1973 PRAISING Roe v. Wade? It was only right before the 1980 election, when Protestants realized that they might be able to peel off a few Catholics to the GOP, did abortion somehow become a political issue.
The same has held true for my kid's friends. Both are past the age of teen pregnancies now and without exception, none of their friends with Liberal parents became pregnant as teens but a Mennonite friend of my oldest was preggers at 15 (kept the baby) and two others who were kids of very right-wing parents also found themselves pregnant under 18 and both (a Catholic and a Pentecost) had abortions. Funny how quickly the right(eous) make exceptions when it effects their own family...
There is a correlation between lack of sex ed and teen pregnancy... we liberals have a tendency to give our kids condoms and too much information.
Yep! Because he is the Snake in the Garden.
Ratman is so much like Bush. Bush makes it hard to love our country. Ratman makes it hard to be a Catholic. Both are bigots, racists, liars, and rival Satanlic lieutenants.
WTF?
This is why I'm an atheist...the church sure has nothing against war, torture, pedophilia and killing and maiming of innocent civilians...but work themselves into a tizzy when it comes to zygotes.
See, for example:
http://www.religioustolerance.org/atheist4.htm
In fact, many people who are labeled as atheists may simply be areligious.
Personally, I believe that any one person's belief or lack thereof in the supernatural is a personal matter. Is that a religion?
Have you seen the Wikipedia entry? There are about 50 different subcategories. Quite a fascinating read.
The only truly scientific position is agnostic as far as I can tell.
I think another scientific position is "it isn't provable so it doesn't matter".
The problem with religious labels is that there's a whole bunch of dogmatic baggage that goes along with a simple up-or-down declaration of belief. For example, can one be a Christian without a belief in scripture or an afterlife?
...and remember "Cthulhu hates you"!
.
You're right about the other scientific position. It simply remains indifferent to things it can't study. I also agree about the dogmatic baggage. I think dogmatic baggage is the real enemy of religion. So, to me, Christianity is probably one of the greatest rivals of Christ.
BTW, the last time I talked to my brother-in-law, I got to listen to him rant about that "idiot creationist" Palin. (His wife, btw, unabashedly teaches evolution to her elementary school students.)
These are the bread-and-butter Catholics who the church elite prefers to ignore.
And by the way, in the realm of science, "gravity" is still a "theory" rather than a "fact" as well.
I'll even do a small bit of your homework for you: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080916/sc_nm/vatic...
You sound like one of those Area-51/Roswell loonies.
I take that back -- you don't sound like one of those loonies -- you *are* one!
But instead, I decided I should take Jesus' advice as spelled out in Matthew 7:6.
This is the major problem with all religions. They can't embrace science - scares the piss out 'em (loss of control?). Same shit when Copernicus and Galleo showed that the Earth wasn't the center of the universe.
*Edit: Bushboy - don't bother to respond - after reading your horseshit below I'll tell you in advance I don't have the time to talk to
someone of your ilk in the area of Science. Darwin's bullshit my friend will far outlast any pissant legacy that you may leave.
War is the biggest example. Why would the church that preaches peace on earth turn the other cheek when it comes to war?
The hierarchy of the Church, especially the large right wing element, is an intelligent but ridiculous group of old men. Maybe not a majority but certainly a large percentage of the clergy is a saintly people who have my undying admiration and respect. The Church is not perfect but when it comes to the moral issue of justice for the disadvantaged in this world, I defy anyone to name a better institution than the Catholic Church. (I am an ex-Catholic.)
When it comes to faith, in general, and the equating of abortion to homicide, in particular, the hierarchy would be be well-advised to remember that just because they believe it, it does not make it true. Same goes for the right wing Catholics and right wing Christians of any religion.
http://www.amazon.com/Murder-Vatican-Revolution...
http://rightweb.irc-online.org/gw/2813
And Sarah Palin's job as mayor of Wassila was a PART-TIME JOB!!
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily...
http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/10/01/...
In fact, it says, " ...no party and few candidates fully share our comprehensive commitment to human life and dignity.......Other assaults on human life and dignity (in addition to abortion) such as genocide, torture, racism and the targeting of noncombatants in acts of terror or war, can never be justified...As Catholics, we are not single-issue voters. A candidate's position on a single issue is not sufficient to guarantee a voter's support."
The statement in full was passed out without comment in my upstate New York parish bulletin today. Perhaps I should send a copy to the Scranton bishop, huh?
Seriously, I think you need to try harder. If you're going to accuse Obama of something ridiculous, accuse him of dong something REALLY ridiculous. Like eating babies.
BTW, are all your projects doing OK? You've been a busy lady. I miss your sharp wit; even though I'm at a tremendous disadvantage.
Projects are all on schedule and, all things considered, I'm a satisfied woman. ;)
This dilemma always assumes that abortion is an option. . so it's not about the right to that choice. It just seems like the men are left out every step of the way. I agree that men shouldn't have any right to force a woman to be a mother. It just seems a little strange that women DO have a right to force a man to be a father.
My wife and I have been round and round about this but there really doesn't seem to be a simple solution. . . other than some sort of legally binding agreement before the sex.
Just sayin/...
Just last week I was having lunch with a women I know who is very, very involved in the anti-abortion activities of our local parish. I was telling her about the law in our state on "parental notification" and the mandatory video women are required to watch before accessing abortions. I am an attorney and represent young women in "by-pass" hearings, that is, to by-pass notifying their parents of their impending abortions. Most of the clients are victims of at the very least, overly strident parents who they feared at a very high level. I have heard girls explain they would be beaten, forced to endure an unwanted pregnancy and even the loss of their family altogether. Many have been victims of incest, acquaintance rape, exploitation from a much older "boyfriend" and other abuses. The process is difficult and these girls are desperate. The court does not take this process lightly. The client has to testify in court under tough questioning as to why they came to court rather tell their parent. My friend was silent for a few minutes upon hearing this, finally saying she was shocked by this situation and how frequently it happened. Her impression was that it was just reckless women who sought abortions. She never thought young girls in our middle class, highly educated community would be availing themselves of this legal process. We discussed how if abortion were to become illegal, it would not end abortions, but would only make them very unsafe. She reluctantly acknowledged that as fact. We then talked about the election. She surprised me with her position just as much as I did her with what I just told her. She said she was voting for Obama, and many of her Catholic friends and family also supported Obama. She said that she voted in the last two elections for the Republicans, especially Bush, because he supported the overturning of Roe v. Wade. She said in 8 years in office it did not happen. She told me that it was now clear to her that the Republicans use abortion as a tool to get votes and then do as they please with the economy, the war, the environment, education, energy, etc. She realized that it was not in the Republicans interest to get Roe overturned as it was their key wedge issue with Religious voters. She said she now knew that voting for one issue, that of Roe, was a big mistake! I was stunned and encouraged to hear her come to this conclusion. I think she is not alone in the American Catholic Church to be thinking in these terms.
If Abortion were made illegal tomorrow, people would still have them.
- Little girls don't want to have to their daddy's babies.
- Rape victims don't want to have their villain's child
- Abused women don’t want to be held in deeper bondage from pregnancy.
- In fact, unwanted pregnancy are more often a symptom of a deeper problem in our society's culture.
- Netherlands, The country with the lowest abortion rate, is also where it is largely free and legal.
Thus, Where there is demand, there will be a market. If prohibited, it will be a black market.
So, if you prohibit demand tomorrow, there will still be abortions tomorrow - back alley, black market abortions.
So, even after you prohibit abortions, to eliminate them, you will still have to persuade people from having abortions.
The thing is - you can persuade people now. (you can change the culture now).
Thus, the legality of Abortion is a false issue.
The question is: The Church knows all of this and still persist in its crusade, Why?
Answer: The church is an old institution with a long memory. They think Democracy was a mistake. Back in the days they conferred legitimacy on the heads of states of Europe. That's their traditional job. Democracy took that away. And when they did, they took the church's power and prestige with it. Increasingly, to be a catholic one has to choose between authoritarianism and democracy.
I think it is time for a new schism: An "American Rite" or "New Catholic Church" or "Western Orthodox Church" where liberal catholics can attend a mass, say the hail mary, pursue social justice all under the idea that the Pope and his Bishops are human and prone to error. People should choose their parish, choose their priest, priest should be able to marry if they want and women should be able to become priest if they want. These liberal catholics will live and worship under their new organization until the church in Rome comes around to their thinking. Could take another millenia.
That bishop supports homicide.
There is a special place in hell for bishops and cardinals. I wish they would hurry up and get their already.