AMERICAblog: "The black community is phony and hypocritical when it comes to lgbt issues"
In_Support
· 5 months ago
This is my response to the author of the article.
What you wrote is at best phony. The Black Church, not so unlike the White Church, may have issues with the LGBT community but that doesn't extend to the "Black Community" itself.
It's always amazing to find when an AA person or Church speaks his or her opinion (good or bad, in this case the latter) that somehow extends to the entire AA community.
Yet when a white person or church (e.g. Mormons, Religious Right) speaks their opinion (again, bad), it just happens to be that person or specific group. Where is the headline, "The White Community is phony and hypocritical when it comes to LGBT issues"?
That wouldn't be convenient for you, would it! You sir and your thinking of AA's as a monolithic people are the issue.
nicho
· 5 months ago
Do you have links to AA "leaders" who have spoken out against the homophobia? There are many in the white community who do. So, I'm assuming from your post that there must be many AA leaders who also speak out. I admit I haven't heard of any, so would appreciate some links that would help. Thanks.
In_Support
· 5 months ago
For one, the POTUS.
Mayor, Cory Booker
Governor, Deval Patrick (has a gay daughter)
Coretta Scott King (who John has quoted numerous times on HuffPo)
Rev. Michael Eric Dyson (a leading scholar of the African-American experience)
Rev. Eric P. Lee (Head of California’s Southern Baptist League)
Al Sharpton (who I have had strong disagreements w/: See HuffPo 1/13/09)
And that is just to name a few, not including other politicians, which goes to the point that labeling an entire community by the actions of some is stereotypical and insulting.
a. mcewen
· 5 months ago
In support,
I am the author of that piece you called phony. Let me ask you something:
How many lgbts of color have you seen on the cover of Ebony or Jet or Essence or any other black-oriented magazine?
How many lgbts of color have you heard on BET (as opposed to how many times a very homophobic movie Soul Plane has been shown on the network?) or for that matter, any other African-American oriented show, talk show, etc.
Why is that when our black leaders talk about black issues (i.e. the state of Black America,) lgbts of color usually aren't included.
I found it highly interesting that you named "those who support us," but no one on that list is an lgbt of color.
While we enjoy any support we get, we aren't dogs and thus can speak for ourselves. But you know as well as I do that there is a HUGE problem in the black community with not only discussing lgbt issue but allowing those lgbts of color to have a public voice.
I'm not comparing communities here. To do so would lessen the problem. To me, it doesn't matter how the "white community" does it. As a black man, I have a right to demand that those claiming to be for the community look towards supporting the entire community rather than just some folks who have the so-called correct sexual orientation. My column came from years of experience of being disrespected by those who claim to support the entire black community.
And such has value. Too many black folks got their head intentionally in the sand.
moran
· 5 months ago
This is so silly. on the one hand, people cry about non-gay people not showing public support. Then you go talking about how lgbt of color need to have their own public voice. And you know there have been gay people on the cover of Black mainstream magazines. Have they talked about their sexuality? Not really. But then again, many in the entertainment world, no matter the race, are reluctant to discuss their sexuality if they are gay.
Really what it comes down to is that gay people who are Black need to be courageous and be out. Not just some of the time, but all of the time. That's the only way people will learn.
moran
· 5 months ago
Not to mention that lgbt of color were absolutely included in the State of Black America. Look up the members of the various panels. I think what's happening here is that in a quest to be included with the predominant white gay mvmt, some Blacks are parroting the tropes that white gays have flung around for so long and not challenging said whites on said tropes. Then the whites such as John here can then link to said Blacks and say "look see, even a Blackie agrees with me." Notice John has nothing to say about the CNN article and throws out links to your site and Pam's House Blend. Please get a grip and not do the disgusting dirty work of the right by dividing groups based on nonsense.
Did you even follow the link and read the entire post? The author is African-American and an accomplished activist in SC. I think his opinions should not be discounted so quickly.
In_Support
· 5 months ago
Why would you be so presumptuous and assume that I didn't read the entire article? For the record, I read the entire article and noted the author. Also, because the author is AA does not make him correct in his assertions. Is the Log Cabin Republicans correct on most LGBT issues? Further, why should his opinion care any more weight than any other?
So, if I said, I find that the LGBT community has systemic racism issues because I can personally point to 'some' gay people that are racists - that would be acceptable? And since I find the premise as fact, I should encourage the entire AA community, including politicians and others that are in agreement (the enemy of my enemy is my friend) to fight every LGBT issue that arises.
lileasy
· 5 months ago
You do know that there are AA's out there who still look upon white folks as monolithic, right? Have you never seen the term "privileged white gays?" As for myself, I throw the term "fundie" around like there is no tomorrow. Now, there may be some very nice people out there who are fundamentalist in their thinking who don't hate the gay, but I sure haven't run into many in my travels. I live in Alabama, and I know who the enemy is. So, I for one, do treat certain groups as monolithic and I ain't going to apologize. I think that is just being human.
In_Support
· 5 months ago
And that goes to my point that anyone that does, is simply shortsighted and plainly wrong. Moreover, if your going to treat this monolithic group as the enemy, then do not be surprised when they react to being treated like an enemy.
Nevertheless, since you have allowed yourself to treat "certain groups" as monolithic, then you can't argue with Heterosexuals that treat the LGBT community the same. I'm just keeping hope that less people, everyday, think as you.
lileasy
· 5 months ago
My problem is not with any racial, ethnic, or sexual group. It is with a religious, cultural, political mindset which would deprive the LGBT community of rights which they themselves enjoy. We make such distinctions all the time when we speak of the evil Nazis v. the good German people. Our president acknowledges that Islam is a religion of peace, but our government is currently at war with a subset of Islam which has been characterized as Islamo-fascist. My problem with fundimentalist Christians stands in stark contrast to my admiration for the Episcopal church of America which voted yesterday to remove all sanctions from the ordination of gay clergy in commited relationships. I know there are many in the LGBT community, of every color, who are greatly disappointed that so many in the not-monolithic AA community would deny civil rights to another minority group using the same biblical authority used for so many generations to justify slavery and Jim Crow. I believe my great hero, Bayard Rustin, might agree.
timncguy
· 5 months ago
I think the reason that the black church opinion is more readily translated to the black community as a whole is because a much larger percentage oft he black community is involved with evangellical type religion than the white community is.
GusII
· 5 months ago
Yes, those of us who are out need to discuss with all our coworkers the non-workplace legal discrimination we experience. From the construction workers, in our jointly owned home, demanding my partner come home to sign off on the current project, to healthcare, financial, inheritance issues. My heterosexual coworkers are wide eyed shocked when I explain just a few of the difficulties. When my coworkers call my partner my husband, I correct them because we are not allowed those rights. Their response, almost to a person, is, “But you guys have been together for 25 years!”
My response is, “It doesn’t matter, it just doesn’t legally matter.”
howdydostu
· 5 months ago
This is where the Bushies were at their best as dividers. AAs and the GLBT comunity should be natural allies. And we've dropped the ball by not going to the religious communities first and expressing our desire to a religous people for "religious freedom". We do not expect their churches to approve of our marriages but, I say to them, What about churches that would? Where is the civl rights for the people in THAT church? And it starts to make sense. All of us, AAs and GLBT and ESPECIALLY AAs could appreciate that the courthouses which dispense justice and enforce law should treat ALL Americans equally. But the right wingers have been successful at convincing many in the AA community that what we seek as GLBT is akin to the AA seeking justice from years of institutional slaverey. When I have conversations with my AA co-workers that what Robert and I seek is equality under the law, it's like a light bulb goes on for AA folks who felt we were belittleing their experiances as AAs. When I explain to them how I can't go up to our HR dept and add Robert to my health insurance and that if one of us passed away the survivor must pay gift taxes on whats left of our property, then they start to see this as the civil rights issue that it is. They have got to hear our stories in their communities with the understanding that though folks like Robert and I did not suffer for generations the scourge of slavery, that CIVIL rights for all Americans is something we all should strive for! Start a conversation! Stuart & Robert Wyman-Cahall Las Vegas, NV 89142
meileen
· 5 months ago
I think you're right. Dividing our 'democratic' community into smaller groups fighting against one another will only hurt the whole. We fail by not trying to communicate with the religious community. Granted, most of that community is irrational, but not all are. We need to connect with as many liberal churches as possible, AA or white - doesn't matter. We need the support of many of those small groups who in turn may be able to change the minds of others.
lileasy
· 5 months ago
This conversation has been going on within most of the liberal Protestant and Jewish denominations for many years now. Lutherans, Methodists, Congregationalist, Episcopalians, Unitarians, Quakers, Conservative and Reform Jews, and other groups are seriously considering their positions on LGBT issues. Yesterday, the Episcopal Church of America voted by a significant majority of its representative laity and clergy to authorize the continued ordination of LGBT's at all levels within the church, much to the consternation of the Archbishop of Canterbury, the titular head of the Anglican communion.
JeepTreats
· 5 months ago
Coretta Scott King, Al Sharpten and Jesse Jackson have spoken out against homophobia.
There are also a few rappers who are speaking out against homophobia.
Obama was for gay marriage before he was against it :-)
If Obama wouldn't have supported his own parents right to get married, why would he support us?
Thank goodness we didn't have to wait for a spineless leader like Barack Obama to lead the way on civil rights!
Obama would not have supported interracial marriage ... in his own words:
That spineless leader is the only way the LGBT community will get civil rights if it's going to happen, at least for the next eight years. And yes, he will be the candidate in 2012.
So, who do you think is going to sign the bill(s) overturning & changing (not just repealing) DOMA and DADT? The LGBT community doesn't just want a repeal but a statutory change affirmatively stating the LBGT service members can serve openly because a repeal just takes you back to pre-Clinton.
JeepTreats
· 5 months ago
You miss the point of my previous post.
you miss the point that in his opinion there were more pressing civil rights issues at the time than interracial marriage. so if it were up to him, he would have kicked the can down the road on interracial marriage. Just as he is kicking the can down the road on gay marriage.
luckily, for him, the black and white civil right leaders back then were more progressive in their thinking and leadership.
I suppose he will sign it because there will be momentum pressuring him to.
So yes, he will probably sign it, but not because he is the fierce gay activist. Maybe you don't have a problem with him inviting a homophobic reverend to his inauguration. Or a president who has never recanted the legal brief his justice dept made comparing gay marriage to incest and pedophilia.
I don't know how you felt about that, but I and many people have a problem with that.
My own person view is that the gay rights movement is similar to the civil rights movement, however different. I think alot of the article is ignoring the truth of what we expected from President Obama, however I do think he does have a point about a certain amount of de facto racism in the gay community. Being a gay man I see small amounts of it be it at a gay bar or a gay gathering. I don't know the reasons for it though I would guess it's just a reflection of the larger American society and not so much the gay community. However the culture presented on places such as BET with hip hop and rap and the hyper masculine, sexist, and homophobic nature of the material presented there is another matter all together. That's a larger problem within the African American community which needs to be addressed and not a reflection of African American homosexuals.
Anyways, that's my take on the two articles and I was curious since I respect your views, what your take would be after examining both pieces and your own experiences as a gay man and political expert. Thanks
Equality for All
HokieBuddy, I fixed the link for you and deleted its duplication.
mml34
· 5 months ago
perception is reality.
there is a perception that the black community has a huge problems with "gays." (ditto, by the way, with respect to the hispanic community)
some of the very individuals that In_Support cites have said, and i'm loosely paraphrasing, that blacks have a problem with gays. yes, it's a generalization. clearly it doesn't apply to every black person.
if i had a penny for every time i've heard a black person (on tv) or read a post by a self-proclaimed black person re: the gay rights movement isn't anything like the civil rights movement, i was born black you chose to be gay, i'd be retired by now.
but to say any of this is taboo. don't acknowledge the perception or the basis in fact for the perception, you might sound like you're criticizing the black community!
In_Support
· 5 months ago
My issue is that very perception and generalization that [all] blacks have a problem w/gays. I'm not arguing that the religious BC, which is significant, does not have issues w/the LGBT community. However, I'm AA and those issues aren't mine nor my family or family friends (hence In_Support). Yet, being a part of the BC, I didn't realize I have this problem.
Would I be justified if I were to simply rely on 'perception or a basis for that perception' and state that the "White Community" was responsible for DOMA & DADT. Currently, the most notable LGBT issues.
Whites introduced and co-sponsored the bill in Congress. In the Senate, 86 of the 100 Senators that voted for each bill were white. The lone AA Senator voted Nay (only approx. 40 AA members in the house and those of note - Waters, Stubbs, and Jackson voted nay). A White Man (Clinton) signed the bills into Law.
I don't think it would be justifiable to say the "White Community" is responsible. Yet, if I had a dime [easy but not cheap :-)] every time I heard that the BC, as opposed to some in the BC, have issues with gays, I would be relaxing on a beach in the British Virgin Islands.
All Comments
What you wrote is at best phony. The Black Church, not so unlike the White Church, may have issues with the LGBT community but that doesn't extend to the "Black Community" itself.
It's always amazing to find when an AA person or Church speaks his or her opinion (good or bad, in this case the latter) that somehow extends to the entire AA community.
Yet when a white person or church (e.g. Mormons, Religious Right) speaks their opinion (again, bad), it just happens to be that person or specific group. Where is the headline, "The White Community is phony and hypocritical when it comes to LGBT issues"?
That wouldn't be convenient for you, would it! You sir and your thinking of AA's as a monolithic people are the issue.
Mayor, Cory Booker
Governor, Deval Patrick (has a gay daughter)
Coretta Scott King (who John has quoted numerous times on HuffPo)
Rev. Michael Eric Dyson (a leading scholar of the African-American experience)
Rev. Eric P. Lee (Head of California’s Southern Baptist League)
Al Sharpton (who I have had strong disagreements w/: See HuffPo 1/13/09)
And that is just to name a few, not including other politicians, which goes to the point that labeling an entire community by the actions of some is stereotypical and insulting.
I am the author of that piece you called phony. Let me ask you something:
How many lgbts of color have you seen on the cover of Ebony or Jet or Essence or any other black-oriented magazine?
How many lgbts of color have you heard on BET (as opposed to how many times a very homophobic movie Soul Plane has been shown on the network?) or for that matter, any other African-American oriented show, talk show, etc.
Why is that when our black leaders talk about black issues (i.e. the state of Black America,) lgbts of color usually aren't included.
I found it highly interesting that you named "those who support us," but no one on that list is an lgbt of color.
While we enjoy any support we get, we aren't dogs and thus can speak for ourselves. But you know as well as I do that there is a HUGE problem in the black community with not only discussing lgbt issue but allowing those lgbts of color to have a public voice.
I'm not comparing communities here. To do so would lessen the problem. To me, it doesn't matter how the "white community" does it. As a black man, I have a right to demand that those claiming to be for the community look towards supporting the entire community rather than just some folks who have the so-called correct sexual orientation. My column came from years of experience of being disrespected by those who claim to support the entire black community.
And such has value. Too many black folks got their head intentionally in the sand.
Really what it comes down to is that gay people who are Black need to be courageous and be out. Not just some of the time, but all of the time. That's the only way people will learn.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq1MN1FYa4M
well worth watching the whole thing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq1MN1FYa4M
well worth watching the whole thing
So, if I said, I find that the LGBT community has systemic racism issues because I can personally point to 'some' gay people that are racists - that would be acceptable? And since I find the premise as fact, I should encourage the entire AA community, including politicians and others that are in agreement (the enemy of my enemy is my friend) to fight every LGBT issue that arises.
Nevertheless, since you have allowed yourself to treat "certain groups" as monolithic, then you can't argue with Heterosexuals that treat the LGBT community the same. I'm just keeping hope that less people, everyday, think as you.
My response is, “It doesn’t matter, it just doesn’t legally matter.”
All of us, AAs and GLBT and ESPECIALLY AAs could appreciate that the courthouses which dispense justice and enforce law should treat ALL Americans equally.
But the right wingers have been successful at convincing many in the AA community that what we seek as GLBT is akin to the AA seeking justice from years of institutional slaverey.
When I have conversations with my AA co-workers that what Robert and I seek is equality under the law, it's like a light bulb goes on for AA folks who felt we were belittleing their experiances as AAs.
When I explain to them how I can't go up to our HR dept and add Robert to my health insurance and that if one of us passed away the survivor must pay gift taxes on whats left of our property, then they start to see this as the civil rights issue that it is. They have got to hear our stories in their communities with the understanding that though folks like Robert and I did not suffer for generations the scourge of slavery, that CIVIL rights for all Americans is something we all should strive for!
Start a conversation!
Stuart & Robert Wyman-Cahall
Las Vegas, NV 89142
There are also a few rappers who are speaking out against homophobia.
Obama was for gay marriage before he was against it :-)
If Obama wouldn't have supported his own parents right to get married, why would he support us?
Thank goodness we didn't have to wait for a spineless leader like Barack Obama to lead the way on civil rights!
Obama would not have supported interracial marriage ... in his own words:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3nRBwlcE-0&feat...
So, who do you think is going to sign the bill(s) overturning & changing (not just repealing) DOMA and DADT? The LGBT community doesn't just want a repeal but a statutory change affirmatively stating the LBGT service members can serve openly because a repeal just takes you back to pre-Clinton.
you miss the point that in his opinion there were more pressing civil rights issues at the time than interracial marriage. so if it were up to him, he would have kicked the can down the road on interracial marriage. Just as he is kicking the can down the road on gay marriage.
luckily, for him, the black and white civil right leaders back then were more progressive in their thinking and leadership.
I suppose he will sign it because there will be momentum pressuring him to.
So yes, he will probably sign it, but not because he is the fierce gay activist. Maybe you don't have a problem with him inviting a homophobic reverend to his inauguration. Or a president who has never recanted the legal brief his justice dept made comparing gay marriage to incest and pedophilia.
I don't know how you felt about that, but I and many people have a problem with that.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/16/granders...
My own person view is that the gay rights movement is similar to the civil rights movement, however different. I think alot of the article is ignoring the truth of what we expected from President Obama, however I do think he does have a point about a certain amount of de facto racism in the gay community. Being a gay man I see small amounts of it be it at a gay bar or a gay gathering. I don't know the reasons for it though I would guess it's just a reflection of the larger American society and not so much the gay community. However the culture presented on places such as BET with hip hop and rap and the hyper masculine, sexist, and homophobic nature of the material presented there is another matter all together. That's a larger problem within the African American community which needs to be addressed and not a reflection of African American homosexuals.
Anyways, that's my take on the two articles and I was curious since I respect your views, what your take would be after examining both pieces and your own experiences as a gay man and political expert. Thanks
Equality for All
HokieBuddy, I fixed the link for you and deleted its duplication.
there is a perception that the black community has a huge problems with "gays." (ditto, by the way, with respect to the hispanic community)
some of the very individuals that In_Support cites have said, and i'm loosely paraphrasing, that blacks have a problem with gays. yes, it's a generalization. clearly it doesn't apply to every black person.
if i had a penny for every time i've heard a black person (on tv) or read a post by a self-proclaimed black person re: the gay rights movement isn't anything like the civil rights movement, i was born black you chose to be gay, i'd be retired by now.
but to say any of this is taboo. don't acknowledge the perception or the basis in fact for the perception, you might sound like you're criticizing the black community!
Would I be justified if I were to simply rely on 'perception or a basis for that perception' and state that the "White Community" was responsible for DOMA & DADT. Currently, the most notable LGBT issues.
Whites introduced and co-sponsored the bill in Congress. In the Senate, 86 of the 100 Senators that voted for each bill were white. The lone AA Senator voted Nay (only approx. 40 AA members in the house and those of note - Waters, Stubbs, and Jackson voted nay). A White Man (Clinton) signed the bills into Law.
I don't think it would be justifiable to say the "White Community" is responsible. Yet, if I had a dime [easy but not cheap :-)] every time I heard that the BC, as opposed to some in the BC, have issues with gays, I would be relaxing on a beach in the British Virgin Islands.