AMERICAblog: The debate continues over homophobia in the black community
leman
· 10 months ago
The NGLTF is more committed to political correctness than they are to a pragmatic approach to securing rights--and analyzing the obstacles to their attainment. Witness their vilification of Barney frank for actually trying to accomplish something for the gay community (ENDA) in the last Congress. This group is so far to the Left that they are rendered ineffective.
Gary SF
· 10 months ago
Is this the issue regarding the removal of the T (transgender) from ENDA? If so, I don't blame NGLTF - they were right. Removing the T did nothing to help ENDA - it is still the dead, and now some of our friends are under the bus.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
Leman should not be taking seriously. Anyone describing the NGLTF as the "far left" is per se an idiot. And yes I agree that the transgendered issue is wrong headed. Indeed, its kind of stupid too. Like anyone voting against the bill will make their decision based on spliting these differences. The only real issue is that there are gay white men who don't want to thinka bout anyone but themselves. Thus you have a Barney Frank saying it was impossible, then there was push by (sorry forgetting her name) from the lesbian Congress woman who say- - "no we can include this, but you did not try." I have a hard time believing that people would be accepting of gays under the legislation, but not transgendered? Whoa e we fooling, but are considered perverts. That's the whole point.
leman
· 10 months ago
For the record I AM trangendered--
Now take your commie rhetoric back to europe!
Akaison
· 10 months ago
Who knows if you are lying or not? And even if you are telling the truth, that doesn't make you less nuts. Commie? Seriously. I am one fo the biggest capitalist around. I believe in the real form of capitalism.
The thing about being equal is that the crazies are equal as the rest of us. So you can take your nut case show to someone else who buys the shit you are peddling.
Dianne_in_DC
· 10 months ago
The first person who I knew had AIDS was an African-American man I worked with. His family pretty much deserted him and refused to acknowledge his illness. He died in the hospital with the other gay (white) man from work at his bedside. That was in 1993. The more things change the more they remain the same. You can say that in French for me, my brain is too tired.
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 10 months ago
A LOT of people are disregarding Coretta Scott King on this matter. And they betray King's legacy.
Orthodox Jews revile homosexuality. No religion or ethnic group is immune from homophobia.
asdf
· 10 months ago
on the other softer side, they simply play to 'eww gross' reaction (that i'm sure gays elicit upon contemplating 'straight sex')... on the other more extreme side, we all know quite well how they 'slippery-slope' the argument to 'humans and dogs' ridiculous proportions.
instead of letting people think of the happy medium ('it's okay and you just don't hafta think about it'), they push it constantly to the extreme, one side or the other.
i don't know that there's a way to force them to keep their arguments reasonable, but keep trying. no matter what they think, it's not gonna lead to 'humans having sex with dogs' for chrissakes. keep knocking them in line, whichever way they keep trying to lead the argument.
Brad
· 10 months ago
We can tie the "slippery slope" and "choice to be homosexual" together-- "So at what age did you choose to like boys/girls and not screw the pooch?"
Gary SF
· 10 months ago
What is not being discussed is the fact that until the AIDS crisis hit full tilt, the 'gay community' was very racist. I can remember seeing blacks asked for 3 photo IDs to enter a bar in the Castro (long before The Badlands started its nonsense), hearing racist conversations, etc. It was so bad that I was very disillusioned by it. I chose to not live in the Castro neighborhood in the late 1970s because of the racism. But AIDS seemed to have made people work together and become more accepting of each other.
Another point is that when most folks hear about 'gays' they think of white guys.
Overcoming preconceived notions, prejudices and worse is a process for most of us. Let's hope that the African Americans that are homophobic move beyond their bigotry.
lpeggy
· 10 months ago
Not to get too deep or anything, but could the anti-gay feeling have something to do with slavery? Being told that you are only 3/5ths of a man? Could these things that happened for hundreds of years of having to prove you are a man, have some sort of residual affect on the Black community today? Just a thought....
moreleesafer
· 10 months ago
you are on the right track as far as the connection to slavery era.
however, my theory is that the church/jesus etc. played a very strong role in the slave's lives. It was the one thing they had to hope for in this world. There had to be a heaven waiting for them if their lives here on Earth were so awful. The church meeting was sometimes the only break they got from working. If your master was very religious, he may have only had you work half a day so you could worship. And post slavery, the churches were often the only place they could congregate without attracting KKK activity and the church often doubled as a school for children during the week. This continued during the civil rights struggle ..........many times the church was the only place where people could meet to plan marches and demonstrations. So there is a deeply ingrained loyalty to the institution. We all know the history of "the church" when it comes to gays isn't good. So all it takes to sway the congregation is to have some Rick Warren type preacher in the pulpit ranting about the gays and you get a chorus of "Amen's" from the crowd of believers.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
There is no debate. on this issue, you and Sullivan along with Savage were wrong. The difference is a difference of 8 points between white voters and black votes- not 20. Thus, to accept your argument that there is this huge difference between blacks and whites is to deny reality.
I happen to think homophobia is across the board bad. Religion, education and age are three biggest predictable causes.
Race was always in these discussion a matter of correlation, not causation.
I just wish you and others appreciated that.
Marck
· 10 months ago
75 percent of AA people voted for the anti-gay initiative in Florida.
In 2004, Jesse Jackson addressed an AA church in Ohio , telling them not to let their fears of same sex marriage make them vote for Bush. Half of the congregation walked out. A good percentage of AA people in Ohio voted for Bush, for fear that Kerry was not as strongly opposed to same sex marriage.
About one third of the LGBT people killed in hate crimes in 2008 were AA. Most homicides of AA people are committed by AA people. Statistically it is likely that these people were killed by other AA people. If AA people are only roughly 12 percent of the population, yet a third of the LGBT victims of homicide are AA, there seems to be a problem.
55 percent voted for in MI. State by state the numbers differ. In states with little or not AA population, these measures have passed by high numbers as well. correlation is not causation. Manhy of you would flunk a simple stats course.
Marck
· 10 months ago
I have taken four advanced statistics classes. And if you read the bulk of social science research, there is a statistically significant proportion of AA people who are homohaters, compared to other groups.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
You don't discuss correlation or whether it's causation or any of the other concepts that would help us determine what the numbers mean. Thus, I question your claims regarding your background. Even the claim that AAs vote more for this is factually inaccurate when one looks as I am doing across the U.S. In the MI example it was almost the same as whites across the state. In other examples with high passage of anti gay legislation, it was a high white vote on the anti gay bills-- ie Oklahoma to name one off top my head. Thus, again, i don't believe you because I know the data now and have learned to ignore claims of expertise not backed up by anything approaching real analysis.
tigergrrldc
· 10 months ago
Speaking as a black lesbian, I really don't understand the homophobia in the black community. Gay people are in the church, hair salons, stores, etc. and that seems to be okay. But, if you start talking about gay rights, then there's a problem with them "faggots." (Lesbians aren't talked about so much; maybe because men would like to watch them having sex or even join in). Also, with black men, I think it's a male pride thing. If it looks like they are "okay" with gay men, then they must be gay or weak or whatever. I'll never understand men and the macho thing, maybe it's the testosterone.
It also could be that some black people feel that they have to sh*t on someone to make themselves feel better, and gay people are fair game because of the open homophobia that is accepted in this countyr. That's why Obama's decision to showcase Rick "Fat Bastard" Warren at his inauguration was such a bad idea for us. Just my two cents.
tigergrrldc
· 10 months ago
I will add that some black men are threatened by more masculine-looking lesbians. They really have a problem with them, especially if the masculine-looking woman is with an attractive woman.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 10 months ago
this is great material for sociologists. bigotry among african-americans. gee, how ironic. but i have yet to see a novel way to use the information. how do you use the information that there is more crime and teenage pregnancy in that community? it's not genetic. it's the way the broader culture marginalizes and threatens african americans. there are bound to be all kinds of ramifications. you deal with the problems the way you do in any community, PLUS you fight racism with better-paying jobs, a fairer justice system, fairer distribution of government services like education, better government oversight of the environment and businesses (especially banks), and yes, affirmative action.
Marck
· 10 months ago
I live in Oakland. I only hear AA people freely using the word faggot. Just sayin'.
Jason
· 10 months ago
Why is it so anathema to discuss homophobia in the black community?
Because the fact that they are black has nothing to do with it. The church they were raised in, the community they grew up in, that might mean something. But a black person could have grown up anywhere. An all black family can be like anything. Simply having a certain skin color is no inclination of what you believe.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 10 months ago
i get your point (i think i made it just below) but surely "black community" has to refer to all those things you mentioned, not just skin color.
Jason
· 10 months ago
Read Soul on Ice (Eldridge Cleaver) and The Fire Next Time (James Baldwin). They're great primers on black sexuality. If memory serves, Cleaver reviles gays for not being 'real men', while Baldwin (who is gay) presents a more nuanced view. The issue is, well, pretty complicated.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 10 months ago
and then you have bayard rustin, co-organizer of the 1963 march, who said back in the 80s that gay equality was the next great civil rights challenge.
Marck
· 10 months ago
Exerpt from interesting book on the subject:
"A new book is stirring controversy for its arguement that pervasive homophobia in the historically black church has reached "crisis" proportion.
"The black church's teaching that homosexuality is immoral has created a crisis for lesbian and gay Christians in black churches," the Rev. Horace L. Griffin, an Episcopal priest, writes in the preface of his new book, "Their Own Receive Them Not: African American Lesbian and Gays in Black Churches."
"This black-church-sanctioned homophobia produces a lot of twisted black people," he writes. Griffin, who is black and gay, grew up in a Missionary Baptist church. Based on his life and church experience, he has witnessed how "black church leaders and congregants have been resistant and even closed in treating gay and heterosexual congregants equally or, in many cases, of simply offering compassion to gay people."
Why is it so anathema to discuss homophobia in the black community? Especially after Obama himself has acknowledged it? ---
I wonder if this has to do with the fact that we align our civil rights struggle with theirs?
I mean, how can you hold the black community's struggle as an example... support black/latino civil rights, as 99.99% of the GLBT community does (yes, I know a couple gay bigots), and acknowledge the fact that they (according to the numbers) hate us?
we constantly seem amazed by the fact that they went through the same struggle for equality and don't see their fight as a fight for equality for EVERYONE.
we're amazed at this, but afraid to attack them as we do the christian right... because even though they don't see civil rights as binding us together, we do.
and we also realize that religion has a HUGE impact on their reasons for viewing it that way.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
The issue is that racist, white gay jerks like Dan Savage, Andrew Sullivan and others were quick to condemn "the African-American Community." They didn't see African-Americans as individuals and that some of those individuals might be religious conservatives. Savage, Sullivan and others grouped those individuals by race discarding any other way grouping people.
More importantly, those white gays just assumed that the exist poll was scientifically accurate. No concern about its validity was considered, instead it was typical lynch mob mentality and blaming the Negroes became acceptable. But what's equally important to note is the refusal to examine the fact that African-Americans represent only 6% of California's population.
The whole failure of No on 8, however, was dropped in the lap of California's population, conveniently and in a self-serving manner ignoring the culpability of the majority of Californians. Again, it was easier to become a crazed, racist lynch mob than deal with facts.
Disgusting comments about how that white gays had voted for Obama and that Blacks owed them were frequently issued. Nevermind that voting for Obama was not voting for Blacks but was done out of self-interests, many white gays just linked Obama's blackness to that of African-Americans. Of course, those gays were quick to ignore the obvious fact that Obama had deliberately disassociated himself from African-American groups as witnessed by his refusal to attend primarily black-themed events like the annual NAACP conference or Tavis Smiley's Townhall session.
Nate Silver of Fivethirtyeight.com sliced the numbers previously and showed how unscientific the exit poll was. He also explained that most of the pro-Prop 8 voters across racial lines were older and or religious.
As the whole Prop 8 debacle was examined, facts showed that the No on 8 campaign ignored the suggestions of GLBT activists of color. Little attention was paid to advertising or communicating directly with communities of color.
Finally, there is this incredibly stupid insistence to create this monolithic "African-American community" that thinks and acts alike.
What disappoints about this whole conversation is the lack of reflection and honesty that amongst the "gay community," 50-percent of gay voters did not vote. Be honest, do you think that if African-, Latino-, or Asian-Americans were about to lose their right to marry that 50% of eligible voters would sit at home? Of course, not. Yet, there is no self-examination amongst most gay commentators or pundits about this fact. It's far easier to blame others.
johnosahon
· 10 months ago
"50-percent of gay voters did not vote. Be honest, do you think that if African-, Latino-, or Asian-Americans were about to lose their right to marry that 50% of eligible voters would sit at home?"
great point, 50% of people in san fransico did NOT vote, that was SHOCKING to me.
scottinsf
· 10 months ago
I just want to correct that. Turnout in San Francisco was over 81%. That 50% figure is bogus.
for the gay community its not bogus. Less than half were registered and of that only a portion voted. This number about SF may not be correc t, but I am relatively certain about the gay vote apathy. It also anecdotal fits with what I read and saw. The lack of volunteering and the view by some that trying to go for marriage right sis the wrong choice since they don't want to get married. I am not saying its right, but is a part of the gay community.
scottinsf
· 10 months ago
Gay voter apathy is a very real and disturbing issue. No disagreement there. I just wanted to point out the official San Francisco numbers.
Jeffrey
· 10 months ago
Where are some of you guys or gals coming up with these numbers for gay voters in the last election? Please give us some sources. Statements like "50% of gay voters did not vote" are patently false and do not help your credibility at all.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
you know if you spent half the time doing research on things like this as coming here to discuss race you might already know the answer. To be honest, I read it in an article about the election. I dont' feel like looking it up. So I am going tell you to do it yourself.
johnosahon
· 10 months ago
but the 70% of AA voting "YES" ( the same CNN poll) is true, how convenience.
what is hilarious is that ONLY one poll (CNN) was used, but everybody used just that one poll so they could finally use the N-word which being called racist.
again just saying.
scottinsf
· 10 months ago
Where did I ever say that? Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
I've been one of the most consistent posters here calling that 70% number bogus so you're barking up the wrong tree.
johnosahon
· 10 months ago
my bad, its just that every damn site keeps quoting one poll, when did one poll become accurate?
and if they cannot get SF which is only one spot, how the fuck can they get an accurate stats from a 6% black population that is scattered in california?
Akaison
· 10 months ago
I am less worried about the racist gays, than the number of people clearly misusing numbers.
I am not an expert, and I can tell when people are overstating (to put it politely ) their case.
For example, I actually had one person telling me that he could use the subsample from the CNN poll to determine whether AAs were more likely to be homophobic than whites across America. Not just in CA- but America.
Up above we have some poster who after i point out that the problem is a problem across the racial lines, and is indeed one that is confusing correlation (the fact you see high percentage of AAs against marriage) with causation (that it's race rather than some other attribute like religion that defines the class). He or she pretends that still its about race.
I can't take these conversations seriously anymore. Stats are meant to aid in understanding what's happening. Taking a higher number without understanding what's behind it so that we can move forward into the future regarding effective messaging and political strategies is virtually useless.
Given what I know of No on 8, I am curious for example across the country and cross the board- how many organizations given the mix of races were ever focused on reaching out to the black community to persuade them?
I don't know the answer to that, but that would be a solutions oriented approach.
This sort of post by the site owner is navel gazing because we aren't thinking of solutions. Just defining correlations that fit neatly into pre concieved ideas. If we end up thinkiin g this is about race rather tha religion we miss how to message properly. The same vacuum that's been the problem for 30 years now with the gay leadership will continue.
scottinsf
· 10 months ago
I'm glad to see John has a link to the recent study in this post. I think everybody should read it. In their conclusion the authors make a pretty good case as to how religion is the biggest factor.
scottinsf
· 10 months ago
No problem. I'm tired of seeing that number thrown around too. Sullivan especially is the worst offender. I thought Nate Silver laid out a perfect case why it wasn't accurate but people were still spouting it.
In addition to blacks being a pretty small percentage of the California population, a lot of people forget that blacks in California vote differently than blacks in some other states. Just like whites in California vote differently than whites in some other states. So on and so on....
People should remember that the NAACP of California is one of the groups at the forefront of fighting for marriage equality here; and one of the lead plaintiffs in the cases the Supreme Court is currently reviewing. We have a number of black and hispanic state leaders that support our fight for equality. It is wrongheaded and stupid to place the blame on prop 8 passing on black California voters.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
Sullivan is hack with a consistent history of using junk racist science shown by his championing the debunked racist filth in "The Bell Curve" and the work of Steve Sailer that purports that African and Native American descended people were genetically inferior to whites.
mirth
· 10 months ago
Once again, Scott, a very good comment from you.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 10 months ago
much food for thought. the "debate" about 70% vs. 55% seems more prurient than useful. it doesn't tell us we should use different methods to combat homophobia according to the community.
johnosahon
· 10 months ago
you bring up good points, but as we are debating this issue we MUST also discuss why there is so much racism in the gay community? why are minority gays NOT put in at the table in the gay community?
we saw this again in the california, where there was no reach-out done to the minority community, i was shocked to see that even in ads there were NO minority representation, the ONLY ad i saw that even had a minority representation was the "samual L. jackson" where he didn't even physically appear in.
maybe if we (minorities) were represented in the gay community, the minority community would NOT look as "gay = white". just saying.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
They universally refuse to aknowledge that part of the issue is that the gay white leadership for decades left a vacuum for white christian conservatives to come into the black community.
A little known stat- the black community was actually more rather than less supportive of gays inthe past. Why is that the case? My feeling is that as I say above that its probably the causation fo the type of christianity that has been pushed over the last few decades rather than about race itself. That race is not the cause but instead a corleation.
But the site owner would hve to actually want to look into these things, and look at how to correct them.
Jack J.
· 10 months ago
I agree, Johnosahon. There is a tremendous amount of racism against Blacks in the White GLBT community and it is particularly vicious because Blacks are generally viewed as no more isex objects. The non-White Gay community is very aware of this arrogant attitude.
I think the Gay (White) community needs to take a good, hard look in the mirror before they start pointing fingers and scapegoating the Black community.
johnosahon
· 10 months ago
i am not saying that white gays are evil or something, i am not here to start something, BUT minority communities NEED to be looking at themselves before they start jumping on others, at least do both at the same time.
my job here is to take notice because people like me in multiple communities are TIRED of defending people that do not defend me, tired of it all.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
Agree 100 percent. I am a gay black guy. I get it from both gay whites who don't like blacks and straight blacks who have a problem with my sexual orientation. At home at times in neither. Even the term "gay community" assumes white males, not other races or women.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
"Even the term "gay community" assumes white males, not other races or women."
I agree. If you look at the how the "gay community" is portrayed, it is usually upper and middle class white gay men like the cute, acceptable gays on "Brothers and Sisters."
How often do you see positive portrayals of queers of color in the media? Gay Asian men are generally portrayed as comic relief in TV and films. Black gay men are usually shown as drag queens and prostitutes. Lesbian women of color are mostly seen as ultra masculine.
It's sad.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
I did not even mention class. The reality is this is another big problem. The people most harmed by a lack of marriage rights , for example, are low incomes gays because they are unable to afford the cost differentials that some one in an higher income bracket could afford. Again, if you were to believe the gay press all gays are upper middle class, and none of them have to worry about paying their bills. Its almost like they want people to only give a damna bout gays if they are upper middle class. No one else counts.
Joel
· 10 months ago
Take a look at the staff page for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, then tell me you're not represented.
Take a look at who is out there in the public being seen. The relevant point is visibility. by your logic blacks working in the secretarial pool of a law firm are the same as the lawyers who run the firm or if you prefer- look at who is on TV when these issues are discussed. Certainly not people of color and certainly not the poor. My issue with prop 8 was why did they, for example, not run ads with low income white gays in them? Not just b lacks or latinos (who also were not represented) but others impacted by the law as it stoood in CA. By not doing so, they made it seem like this was an upper class gay white issue when this is an issue that affects gays (regardless of race or class ) across the board.
I have a pet theory that I always tell people. One of the reason Brokeback Mountain did so well was no only did it have stars, but the story involved low income people rather than the standard gays in the ghetto stories of the last 20years. This is the mentality that is holding the gay rights effort back on the political end. No one sees our suffering. Some of that is because they don't want to see it. Some of it is that our leadership refuses to show it.
johnosahon
· 10 months ago
take a look at the congress and the white house on january 21st. that does not change the fact that discrimination against minorities occurs.
so that does not say much, when the organisation favors one side or another, putting a new face on it changes NOTHING, what needs to change is the policies, it is the policies that dictated what ads, and who to market it to in proposition 8. the policies neglected the minority communities and started to notice them only after the fact, but instead of changing policies they decided to call them the N-word, as if that would change the laws.
just saying.
Joel
· 10 months ago
The diversity of organizations like the Gay and Lesbian Task Force and Congress, and the White House are not just symbols of the progress that have been made in these past 50 plus years. They are real advancements, real people who provide a voice for your community, whether you chose to accept them as such or not.
Gay men and women have supported the equal rights movement going back to its roots in the 50's and 60's. Gay men and women haven't just begun to notice minority communities, gay men and women have known that racial equality is directly tied to their equality for decades.
Sure, you feel rejected because you feel that you were not represented in an ad campaign. (Maybe you didn't see all the ads?)
Well, I feel rejected every time leaders in the black community say that gay rights is not a legitimate cause. I feel rejected when Barack Obama says he personally doesn't believe in my right to marry. I feel rejected that people can say these things and nobody even blinks, as if that is just fine to hold such opinions.
I haven't heard anyone call anyone the "N" word, but I have noticed that the word is so stigmatized that you cannot even spell it.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
There is virtually no people of color of low income leadership involved in public image of the gay rights effort. That's just fact. You can spin like a top. You can ignore my posts. I am going to repeat hte point each time you post.
Joel
· 10 months ago
Repeat it all you like. Saying something over and over doesn't make it true.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
I will repeat it because it is true just so other posters can realize that you are not being honest.
Joel
· 10 months ago
Where have I lied? Please, point out one single lie.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
You say "gay men and women," but what does that mean? Do you mean queers of color or white gay men and women?
Also, why do you expect that the mythical African-American community would be less homophobic than the rest of society? Homophobia IS alive and well throughout American society. How many states in the U.S. don't have anti-gay discrimination laws? Weren't the leaders of the Yes on 8 campaign white?
There is this magical disconnect from the responsibility of white Americans for leading the anti-gay charge. Because the "gay community" in the U.S. is largely white some white gays refuse to tie the white race to homophobic villainy in the same manner that they are to do so against people of color.
FunMe
· 10 months ago
johnosahon ... good point!
I am in the LA area and called the NoOn8 campaign hoping to do door-to-door campaigning IN SPANISH to the latino community. I never got a call back even to confirm the spanish-speaking phone banks they have set up.
I was so ready to walk the neighborhoods and talk in Spanish to the latino community.
The NoOn8 is also at fault for not doing a good job with the minority community.
They can't say there were no latino ready to help because I certainly was ready.
johnosahon
· 10 months ago
good on you though, everybody is at fault here we must all work together. if they want to put one minority group against another that is NOT going to solve anything, it is just GOOD DRAMA for CNN ratings. that's all.
scottinsf
· 10 months ago
I didn't like how Samuel L. Jackson got almost completely hidden in there either. What were they thinking? The No on 8 campaign definitely wanted to hide the support of anybody considered too "liberal". Barbara Boxer wanted to do an ad and that idea was shot down because she was considered too liberal. Also consider the fact that they really didn't want to even show gay couples. Great. Show the parents of gay couples talking about how wonderful it all is but not show a gay couple. Stupid micromanaged advertising.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
What's incredibly foolish about that is Jackson is glorified as an action star badass. Wouldn't it have been meaningful to show how a respected, heterosexual guy like Jackson supported 8 earlier in the campaign? Nope! Not according to the No on 8 leaders.
sullivan
· 10 months ago
Racism yes but don't get me started on the phobias that exist in the gay community against their own who are hiv+!
Mark
· 10 months ago
I think this is exactly right, and I'm so disappointed that the gay community is not taking this opportunity to address its own rampant racism. Almost all the leaders of national and local gay organizations are middle-class white men. The gay movement is perceived as being by and about privileged white people. The discussions post-Prop 8 have only served to highlight that African-Americans are see as totally "other" by white gay people--this alien race with odd beliefs and practices (such as going to church). It would be far more productive for white gay people to start talking with black and Latino gay people than just to keep screaming about "those homophobic minorities."
ChrisJohnson142
· 10 months ago
SAY IT AGAIN, RAFAEL!
FunMe
· 10 months ago
Related topic:
If you are in Los Angeles THIS SATURDAY!, January 10, 2009 2:00 PM – Action Fair 6:00 PM – Live Performance of “Prop. 8: The Musical”
As part of a national ‘Day of Protest’ against the 1996 Federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) – which prevents the federal government from recognizing same-sex marriages performed in any of the nation’s 50 states – thousands of LGBT Angelenos and their allies will gather at THE RESOLUTION, an action fair focusing on the fights for marriage equality and against DOMA. Members of the community will be given an opportunity to go booth to booth and perform direct actions such as signing a postcard to Obama, writing a letter to a congressperson, signing a petition, and much more. There will also be a museum setup at the fair featuring artifacts from LGBT history ranging from legal documents to the personal items of Harvey Milk.
Marck
· 10 months ago
I think the main reason is that the church is extremely important in the AA Community. Equal access to education still does not exist, so the church rather than the educational community becomes a central social source. Highly educated people are significantly less bigoted. Where access to education is denied ignorance prevails. Religion is the refuge of the ignorant.
johnosahon
· 10 months ago
could not had said it any better, i think it is a combination of age, education and religion though.
JayR
· 10 months ago
Are religious African-Americans significantly more homophobic than religious non-African-Americans?
nicho
· 10 months ago
I don't know of any figures on that, but the real issue is that African-Americans attend church regularly at a rate that is two to three times that of white Americans. So, that's where the problem lies with church-related homophobia. Also, you'll find more whites in the liberal-leaning congregations like UCC, UU, etc.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
That is not true. Read the study.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
the causation is believed to be religion, age and education. so yes your point is correct as to understanding the cause behind people's votes being religion above all else.
Marck
· 10 months ago
From my personal experience the answer would be yes. The AA people I know who are highly educated but not religious have no problem (that I can perceive) with LGBT people. The AA people I know who have not had certain educational opportunities and are very involved in the church are. What I try to do is communicate, share with and get to actually know and listen to not just the former but the latter group. My experience with AA people in the latter group (only my experience) is that they hate gay people only in theory. When they actually know a gay person, the bigotry diminishes. If we can reach out and communicate, collectively we will be able to significantly diminish this problem.
No, we won't eliminate it, but we may be able to close the margins on issues such as Prop 8 by showing AA people that we are human beings. Yeah I know we should not HAVE to teach people not to hate us, but since they have been taught to hate us, I see no other option as potentially viable.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
Same experience. The first comment I got after the passage of Prop 8 was from a Haitan woman who I had not yet told I was gay. She mentioned the passage of 8, and asked 'Don't they realize this can be used gainst us ?" Us being people of color. She's highly educated. She knew the consequences of the arguments being made on both sides. That's a big factor in understanding Prop 8. Even if someone is not particularly for gay marriage, they needed to understand what equal protection is for example to even understand the debate.
Jack J.
· 10 months ago
When I read comments, especially the most "agitated" ones, on the Black community as it relates to their feelings on homosexuality I see numerous references to books, artcles, studies or some media personality being a fool. What I don't see is anyone having a meaningfull, one on one conversation with any person of color or Black church, including John A. and Chris in Paris. If you haven't at the very least done that, then, to me, your opinion has little merit.
If you have, I'd certainly like to see it posted.
It might be a good idea to stop this whining about this and go out and actually TALK to ordinary people in the Black community. It's not that hard to do and you just may get some understanding and good will rooted in the process. It worked for me.
Shonnie
· 10 months ago
Several million white Californians voted yes on prop 8. Yet the white gay community isn't holding them accountable. Those people are only their parents, siblings, extended family members, friends and neighbors. These are the people that they work with, live with, and interact with on a daily basis. Black people comprise less than 10% of the voters in California, yet many white gays continue to place the blame for the passage of proposition 8 on black people. This is illogical and unreasonable, and the only reason for it is that many white people cannot resist the temptation to scapegoat black people.
Marck
· 10 months ago
I don't think we are trying to blame any group but rather we are trying to determine the reasons underlying homophobia in different communities. If we understand what is behind this bigotry we can then we can attempt to take proper steps to attempt to eliminate it or at least significantly reduce it.
Prop 8 was pretty close. Perhaps addressing the nuanced differences in bigotry against LGBT people across communities we can make progress.
That said, yes some LGBT people are racist. People are people, and in every group there are people who have serious issues with others. Perhaps reducing homophobia across cultures will also work to lessen racism in the LGBT Community. Understanding is a two-way street.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
There are some trying to use this as blame rather than as a way to understand the data. As I say above the issue is what is causation versus what is correlation.
ShirleyGoodnessanMercy
· 10 months ago
This is a matter for the Black community to discuss. I'm gay & white and have MANY MANY pro-gay Black friends. But I do note that my four closest black gay friends are closeted at home and at work. I know no white gays who are closeted. I understand how hard it is for many black men to be "out." But I do see change happening in the Black community. Now I should shut up.
anastasjoy
· 10 months ago
John,
Along this line, I wonder if you could spotlight what is going on in Cleveland with the partner registry? There are good stories over at the Gay Peoples' Chronicle you could link to. In a nutshell, a few weeks ago, Cleveland followed in the footsteps of Toledo and Cleveland Heights (where I live) and passed, 13-7, a registry that would allow domestic partners to put themselves on record so that they could be considered a couple, for instance, for hospital visitation. It created no legal relationship. It was opposed by 7 black east-Side councilpeople. Immediately after this a group of eight black pastors started to organize to try to get signatures to put it to a vote and repeal it. They are doing a masterful job of talking out of both sides of their collective mouths. The leader of the effort, the Rev. C.J. Matthews, is trying to claim he didn't pressure any councilpeople to vote against it, has tried to say he's NOT the leader, and has even apparently said he doesn't even know what the registry does, hard to believe for this higher educated but clearly bigoted man. I'm particularly distressed and perplexed by the Rev. Marvin McMickle, one of the most prominent pastors in the city, who initially appeared with Matthews on this but now sort of kind of seems to be distancing himself from - something or another. Incredibly mealy-mouthed and especially disturbing considering that in September, when he threw his hat in the ring to be considered for the empty congressional seat of Stephanie Tubbs Jones, he told members of the democratic county executive committee that although he had opposed gay marriage, he favoured civil unions and all rights for gays. Now it appears that stance may have been opportunistic, it's hard to say. I find all of this disturbing. we have had this registry in Cleveland Heights for five years and nothing bad has happened as a result of it. (In fact, it directly led to our defeating the single councilperson who was against it, the homophobic Rev. Jimmie Hicks Jr whom we replaced with a gay man!)
davidkc
· 10 months ago
I'd prefer to focus on battling homophobia periods. There is plenty of homophobia among whites, latinos, asians, and, yes, blacks, but I see no logical reason to single out homophobia among a single racial/ethnic community. We may need to develop different strategies and tactics to battle homophobia among different population groups, but trying to say that one race or ethnicity is more anti-gay than another is a waste of time and totally beside the point.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
I waded through the study. What struck me was that it seemed designed to make the point that blacks were not that much more homophobic than other groups. That's one reason I don't trust it. It had an ax to grind, and as we know, any study can "prove" any point if it sets out to do so. Furthermore it's counter-intuitive that there is no more homophobia in the black community. The original 70% figure from the first exit polls sounds far more likely to me than this 58% figure.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
Well that's a way to discount information you don't like. Simply say its biased and then ignore it. I feel the earth is flat. I am going to ignore any information that disagrees with that view. Yeap,no racism in your thought processes at all.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
LOL. I predicted your response almost exactly, Akaison. What surprised me was that it took you 24 minutes. Now, all I am going to point out is that you are accusing me of being a racist. In other words, you simply say I am biased, and then ignore me. And that is exactly what you just accused me of doing.
Calling someone a racist used to be a great way to silence someone with an opinion you didn't want to hear. But all that is changing now that we've elected Obama. America is moving ahead, and that is a good thing. And just like when those who opposed Burris were called racists, Obama himself has made a statement that throws cold water on the finger pointers. I have to agree once again with Obama. Anti-gay prejudice is huge in the black community and needs to be dealt with honestly.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
I don't know you but after reading your statement, I think you are racist. As for someone not responding to you, what does that mean? It's Friday.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
So then Obama must be a racist too, because he sees a big problem in the black community. Of course I don't think he is. I'm just making a point. It's interesting, though, that one has to be black to point out a very obvious flaw in the black community involving attitudes toward gays. If a white person says the same thing, some will call him a racist. As I say, it's used to make people be quiet. I don't think it has the impact it once did, though. And i see that impact diminishing now that America has elected a black president. It's just getting old fashioned to try to point the finger of racial guilt simply because someone is honest and points out a flaw that needs to be addressed. Anyway, I'm delighted Obama spoke up. I think he is going to set a good example for the black community.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
Please. You are slicing and dicing and pouring in glue to stick together some argument.
Obama addressing homophobia is a far cry from your insisting that the 70% number is correct even though multiple statisticians have disproved the 70% number.
You are embracing the number because it fits your view point. Any other evidence to the contrary is meaningless to you. What separates you from the creationists who reject scientific evidence to support evolution? You and they reject scientific evidence because it disagrees with your opinions.
By the way, the Planet Earth is round. Seriously, it is a round sphere that is kind of squished. See, it really is not flat. You can actually sail in a boat around the world without having to worry that you will fall off the edge of the planet!!
Oh, I think you should really try to accept that the universe does not revolve around the Earth. The Earth and all of the planets in the solar system actually are satellites of our sun, Sol.
And babies, seriously, storks don't deliver them. Babies come from a woman's womb.
I can tell you more about the weird stuff others and I call science!
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
I'm struck by how similar your writing style is to Akaison's. You even used her flat earth analogy.
The reason for my thinking the 70% figure is probably closer to the truth is because I believe there to be more homophobia in the black community than in other groups. So does Obama. That doesn't make either one of us a racist. It just means we have our eyes open to what is going on. The reason I suspect the study is that it didn't do a good job of hiding its intent. I didn't come across as an unbiased study that just happened to come up with the conclusion that a lower number of blacks supported Prop 8 than originally reported. It went for that conclusion from beginning to end. There were a number of clues about its pre-intent that just jumped out and said, "Hello".
Akaison
· 10 months ago
Yes, we are exactly the same person. It's not because you are transparently a bigot. Notice, that I don't call anyone els here I disagree with that name. There's reason. They are not arguing "oh I don't believe it because that's not what I think of blacks." They may argue wronglya bout what the new numbers means, but theydon't deny its existence based on a feeling. And as for the flat earth argument- its a common argument against your type of analysis. Do you honestly think you are the first person to ever base arguments just on how ou feel? Has it occured to you that you are just one among many regardless of the subject matter who basis arguments just on emotions? That flat earth argument is a pretty common retort to such retarded arguments.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
Ditto!
BTW, I wonder if Nate Silver and authors of this most recent study would have a case for libel against Rigamortis? All of the authors are noted statisticians whose livelihoods could be adversely impacted by claims calling into question their devotion to the rules of statistical analysis.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
Rigamortis? Do you mean Rigor Mortis? Lol. I can just see the scene in Internet Alias Court.
Judge: "RitornaVincitor, AKA RigorMortis, do you wish to call a defense witness?"
Me: "Yes, your honor. I wish to call as my first defense witness President Barack Obama who said, 'And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean. If we're honest with ourselves, we'll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King's vision of a beloved community. We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them."'
Rafael
· 10 months ago
Again, you continue to ignore the facts. Why don't you address Nate Silver's statistical analysis? Oh, that's right, you don't care about scary facts.
As for your defense,because Obama gives a speech says nothing about the actual percentage of people who might of voted yes or no on Prop 8. That's not how science works. Obama is just one person. He's neither god with all seeing eyes, nor is he a social scientist who has done extensive interviews with subsequent statistical analysis of a representative pool of 50 million people!
Rick Warren says gays are the equivalent of pedophiles. So, that of course, based on your logic, is scientific evidence!
In conclusion, you continue to refuse to answer any questions with facts to counter statistics. You provide no evidence of problems with the statistical methodology of either study but offer a speech of Obama. "Hey, Obama's black; so, he knows every thing about every black person in America."
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
So now you are getting to the crux of the matter. You disagree with Obama. So you are now not only fighting against the fact that there is a major problem in the black community. You now are fighting the new President. You have your work cut out for you.
Now I will address your arguments which of course are a deflection from the real issue. As I said at the very beginning of this illuminating discussion, any study can "prove" anything it sets out to prove. It can be "proved", for example, that smoking does not cause cancer. Tobacco companies "proved" it many times in the past. The reason Obama needed to address the prejudice in the black community is because it is a major problem. And that was evident to all long before Obama addressed it. Any statistics that show blacks did not support Prop 8 in significantly larger proportions than other groups have to have been doctored. I could, for example, allow you to divert me into discussing Timothy Kincaid's article in which he refutes the 58% figure, and then we could shrink this comment section into a long, thin line down the right side of the monitor as we trade back and forth stabs at proving statistics. But that would be just more diversion. Or we could go off on a tangent about how Mr. Obama was elected not because of his membership in the African American community, but because of the degree to which he is apart from it. But that too is a diversion. The truth is obvious, hence your need to go off on tangents.
Now your response will of course be to continue along the line that the doctored statistics are correct. And with that you hope to ignore the truth. But now that means you must ignore Obama's message as well.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
I think you are just angry with me, Akaison, because you can not defeat my argument. There is a strong prejudice among the black community toward gays. Obama himself has addressed it.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
If I got angry at every bigot I met I would be angry a lot. You are a part of life. There are plenty of white folks who are not bigoted. You are not one of them. Such is life.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
My point is that there is strong anti-gay bias in the black community. Obama has said the same. Your response has been to call me names. But your anger doesn't touch me. It simply exposes the fact that you want to fight the truth but can not. I can't help you with your anger, but I can help you with your posts. Remember our little discussion not long ago about bullying? When you've got the truth on your side, you don't need to bully. Same goes for name calling. When your argument is valid, there is no need to attack. Neither does repetition always strengthen an argument. Often more is less. To make a point successfully, start with a valid point. Then if challenged, it will defend itself. Never resort to name calling or bullying, because both create the impression that you are just interested in winning an argument by silencing the other viewpoint, and know that you can not win on the merits of your case. It also betrays the kind of frustration that comes from being wrong. In this situation may I suggest that instead of trying so hard to minimize the extent of homophobia in black society, you instead (without attacking) describe what it is like for a black woman such as yourself who is also gay. You could describe the pain of trying to defend the black culture while also finding yourself under attack by it. You could really wow people.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
You are struck by what? A case of tremendous ignorance and bigotry? A lack of appreciation for science? A desire to make sh@t up to suit your cause?
Well, don't you sound like a perfect Bushie! Michelle Malkin and Ann Coulter must be quaking in their boots because another twister of facts and figures is making her way onto the scene!
Hip, hip, hooray! Rigamortis is here to save the day! A book burnin' she'll bring this day!
CNN admitted that it's poll was flawed! Nate Silver of FiveThirtyEight.com ripped apart the poll and showed how it was faulty.
When you were a kid, did you cover your ears and scream nonsense when you did not want to hear what others had to say? ----------
Psst! It's true, water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit/ 0 degrees Celsius.
Science! Weird science!!
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
You see? I have a very strong argument. I don't have to get angry or become insulting with anyone, or try to create diversionary arguments because my argument stands on its own. That there is strong prejudice against gays in the black community is self evident. Furthermore Obama has addressed it. It puzzles me that some posters employ these kind of diversionary tactics without realizing how they expose the weakness of their argument.
Garrett in SF
· 10 months ago
I've spent the last 10 year working with homophobia in different ethnic communities. Homophobia gets played out is more openly in the African-American community, but it really no different. It also has much more to do with their involvement in the church than by their culture. Check out the films we've put together on homophobia in the white community, African-American community and the Latino community at http://startaconversation.org.
Gary SF
· 10 months ago
What I find odd is that most of these discussions revolve around the vote on Proposition 8 and how black homophobia affects the gay (read: white homosexual) community.
Nobody is discussing the just how destructive homophobia in the black community oppresses its true victims: Black gays and lesbians. It is like this homophobia wasn't an important issue before we lost our right to marry, but now it is - but only because it affects those of us who want to marry.
Maybe when we start caring about the world around us and not just our fucking looks and dick sizes, this homophobia will go away. And my criticism goes for black gays too.
LarryR
· 10 months ago
Uh. Garrett, isn't involvement in their church PART of their culture? If they're not bright enough to figure out it's not 'gay' rights but human rights, screw them.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
Uh, Larry, isn't involvement in a religion part of the culture of many white Americans?
Dude,
Just how "bright" are you? Not that scintillating it would seem: You are lumping all African-Americans together ignoring class, education, wealth, sexual orientation, and, of course religious affiliation: There are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Scientologist, and whole bunch of other religions to which African-Americans belong. How many sects of Christianity are there? Do all of the Christian sects offer the same teachings?
Did you forget that Barack Obama attended Trinity United Church of Christ. The much maligned Revered Wright supports gay marriages.
Rafael
· 10 months ago
On further thought, why is it that there are no postings about "Homophobia in the white community"? When discussing white homophobia is always packaged and wrapped with a bow as homophobic religious communities: conservative Episcopalians, Baptists, Mormons, etc.
Why must homophobia amongst African-Americans soley be discussed from a top down view based on race? Yeah, well, we know the answer: it's far easier to take all African-Americans, regardless of age, religious affiliation, class, education, age, and SEXUAL ORIENTATION, and dump them into the proverbial intellectual meat grinder to produce a consistent, easily manipulated mass.
All of this seems to go back to the white controlled media's need for a great black leader who can be summoned to pretend to speak for all African-Americans. Al Sharpton is the toast of Fox News because he's their creation. What do 50 million individual Americans decide in their hive mind, Al? Al, can you tell us about the latest telepathic communication you had with 50 million people just now?
Do you remember how just a few years ago, every TV would say that an African-American was "streetwise"? Yep, little Susie, whose parents were school teachers or bankers or doctors, and who grew up in upper middle class suburbia, was automatically streetwise. Don't be fooled by her school books or college education, Susie was streetwise!
Gabriel
· 10 months ago
Rafael, Al Sharpton supports gay marriage. Crapping on your allies is not the best way to promote change.
Mighty
· 10 months ago
I don't agree that there is a specific problem of homophobia in the black community. I do think there is a problem of homophobia in conservative literal interpretation religious organizations. Its not a black issue but a religious one. Its the legalistic religious groups that are the problems. You see it in all racial groups as it crosses multiple demographics. The commonality amongst them is their conservative teachings.
Akaison
· 10 months ago
Exactly, but to be fair even the younger Christians are starting to thaw on this. BUt we still have a long way to go with even them. That's why age and education also matters regarding the discussion. It won't convert everyone, but in many cases we are talking 10 to swings to shift the balanc ein our favor.
Anthony Look
· 10 months ago
Finally this debate is beginning to get some wings. The furor even in conversation with my black religious conservative friends, co workers, accquainances; when discussing gay issues has always surprised me. It is an inherent knee jerk well engrained bias on the part of the majority of black religious conservatives to dismiss with disdain and vigor the rights of the gay community. I have encountered countless confrontational stances and incalcintrant intolearance on gay right discussions; when otherwise cordial conversations with said friends and co workers are equally surprisingly not fought with their heels completely entrenched in their religious teachings. When one argues that it is not a black issue, I am reminded of the countless of articles I frequently read of even more draconian laws, concepts, attitudes and actions against the gay communities in African countries. To deny that there is an overwhelming embedded homophobia in the American conservative black community is simply a denial of an obvious reality. What the gay community should do is acknowledge that there is work to be done; educational and political. The gay community can no longer afford as a voting group to disenfranchise it's political goals by voting for black candidates that are equally as homophobic and bigotted on gay right issues as are white conservative religious Republicans and Democrats. Gay Democrats have blindly voted for fellow black Democrats in local, state and federal campaigns, without regard to the inherent religious conservative consequences. This unquestioned support of fellow black Democrat candidates to school boards, or commissions, or judgships, or political offices must cease. The gay community must solicit candidates not the basis of political party or race or religion; but, the gay community must inquire into the stance on gay issues and support that any candidate will offer towards gay rights goals. To ignore that the conservative religious black community is prejudice against gay issues is ignorance and a folly that cannot be any longer tolerated. Vote smart.
freder421
· 10 months ago
I am a 51 year old black male, I am offended by the notion or the thought of anyone grouping us together, on any subject. I happen to support gay marriage, does that surprise you? That is called stereotyping, as you well know.
Let me give you guys a suggestion, if you have or have not studied, the struggle of black people in America, and the civil rights movement. Go and study or go back and study that history. You guys need to be electing people, at all levels of government. You need to be in the streets today and everyday. Not what you have been doing, a protest here and there. Get off of your ass and demand equal rights. You can cry and moan all day on the net.
I have been coming here daily, for at least the last 2 years, because you guys really do cover the news well. But since that vote on prop 8, you guys have lost it. And the invitation of Rick Warren to speak, you guys really got nasty on that one.
One last thought, I care about a black preacher just as much as I do a white preacher. I care for the black church as much as I do for the white church. You have gay preachers also black or white, when you see a preacher, ask him are you gay? Are you a crook, what is your sin? Change the topic from you to them. Are you perfect? Stop lying on god, I would not trust a preacher as far as I can see his ass.
I am out of here, thank you for letting me vent. But please stop with the blacks this the blacks that. Kiss my ass mf, I don't play that way.
RitornaVincitor
· 10 months ago
You said a bad word.
sherifffruitfly
· 10 months ago
hahaha! White folks just KNOW it's black folks' fault.
Anything else is a non-starter.
erip
· 10 months ago
Evidently it is racist to say that homophobia is particularly prevalent in the black community . Evidently its anti christian to say that evangelicals use the bible to promote an agenda of bigotry and homophobia. The African American community has been disporportionately affected by HIV (higher), and the african american community has been particularly slow to respond to the crisis. This is because the community is more church based and the church decided that HIV is a gay problem not a health problem. Its time for churches in EVERY community to stop cherry picking the bible to find some way to scapegoat a group to raise funds... The same rhetoric that white churches used to oppose desegregation and the mixing of the races, is the same rhetoric that ALL churches are using to oppose marraige equality... Meanwhile Barak Obama is a powerful speaker, lets HOPE and PRAY that his deeds will equal the strength and power of his words.. So far, for gay people in this country.. hope seems to be nothing more than the title of a best selling book and the name of a small town in arkansas, lets see
Akaison
· 10 months ago
No the racism is to assume because they are black they are homophobic rather than to understand its as correlation to religion, not race. Just like it would be a mistake to assume that whites in states like Nebraska, Mountain and Oregon (in each state 90 percent of the population) voted for anti marriage bans by 65 percent or more because they were white. In the reverse, this demosntrates your bigotry because I do not see you arguing these people in those states are doing it because they are white.
whomod
· 10 months ago
I just think it's time for a new dialogue where some hard and disturbing self reflection is involved rather than merely just accusatory fingers being pointed. Both in the white and black communities (and Latino, Asian, gay etc.)
All Comments
Now take your commie rhetoric back to europe!
The thing about being equal is that the crazies are equal as the rest of us. So you can take your nut case show to someone else who buys the shit you are peddling.
Orthodox Jews revile homosexuality. No religion or ethnic group is immune from homophobia.
instead of letting people think of the happy medium ('it's okay and you just don't hafta think about it'), they push it constantly to the extreme, one side or the other.
i don't know that there's a way to force them to keep their arguments reasonable, but keep trying. no matter what they think, it's not gonna lead to 'humans having sex with dogs' for chrissakes. keep knocking them in line, whichever way they keep trying to lead the argument.
"So at what age did you choose to like boys/girls and not screw the pooch?"
Another point is that when most folks hear about 'gays' they think of white guys.
Overcoming preconceived notions, prejudices and worse is a process for most of us. Let's hope that the African Americans that are homophobic move beyond their bigotry.
Could these things that happened for hundreds of years of having to prove you are a man, have some sort of residual affect on the Black community today? Just a thought....
however, my theory is that the church/jesus etc. played a very strong role in the slave's lives. It was the one thing they had to hope for in this world. There had to be a heaven waiting for them if their lives here on Earth were so awful. The church meeting was sometimes the only break they got from working. If your master was very religious, he may have only had you work half a day so you could worship. And post slavery, the churches were often the only place they could congregate without attracting KKK activity and the church often doubled as a school for children during the week.
This continued during the civil rights struggle ..........many times the church was the only place where people could meet to plan marches and demonstrations. So there is a deeply ingrained loyalty to the institution.
We all know the history of "the church" when it comes to gays isn't good.
So all it takes to sway the congregation is to have some Rick Warren type preacher in the pulpit ranting about the gays and you get a chorus of "Amen's" from the crowd of believers.
I happen to think homophobia is across the board bad. Religion, education and age are three biggest predictable causes.
Race was always in these discussion a matter of correlation, not causation.
I just wish you and others appreciated that.
In 2004, Jesse Jackson addressed an AA church in Ohio , telling them not to let their fears of same sex marriage make them vote for Bush. Half of the congregation walked out. A good percentage of AA people in Ohio voted for Bush, for fear that Kerry was not as strongly opposed to same sex marriage.
About one third of the LGBT people killed in hate crimes in 2008 were AA. Most homicides of AA people are committed by AA people. Statistically it is likely that these people were killed by other AA people. If AA people are only roughly 12 percent of the population, yet a third of the LGBT victims of homicide are AA, there seems to be a problem.
http://www.gayamericanheroes.info/
It also could be that some black people feel that they have to sh*t on someone to make themselves feel better, and gay people are fair game because of the open homophobia that is accepted in this countyr. That's why Obama's decision to showcase Rick "Fat Bastard" Warren at his inauguration was such a bad idea for us. Just my two cents.
Because the fact that they are black has nothing to do with it. The church they were raised in, the community they grew up in, that might mean something. But a black person could have grown up anywhere. An all black family can be like anything. Simply having a certain skin color is no inclination of what you believe.
"A new book is stirring controversy for its arguement that pervasive homophobia in the historically black church has reached "crisis" proportion.
"The black church's teaching that homosexuality is immoral has created a crisis for lesbian and gay Christians in black churches," the Rev. Horace L. Griffin, an Episcopal priest, writes in the preface of his new book, "Their Own Receive Them Not: African American Lesbian and Gays in Black Churches."
"This black-church-sanctioned homophobia produces a lot of twisted black people," he writes. Griffin, who is black and gay, grew up in a Missionary Baptist church. Based on his life and church experience, he has witnessed how "black church leaders and congregants have been resistant and even closed in treating gay and heterosexual congregants equally or, in many cases, of simply offering compassion to gay people."
Here is a link:
http://www.chicagopride.com/news/article.cfm/ar...
---
I wonder if this has to do with the fact that we align our civil rights struggle with theirs?
I mean, how can you hold the black community's struggle as an example... support black/latino civil rights, as 99.99% of the GLBT community does (yes, I know a couple gay bigots), and acknowledge the fact that they (according to the numbers) hate us?
we constantly seem amazed by the fact that they went through the same struggle for equality and don't see their fight as a fight for equality for EVERYONE.
we're amazed at this, but afraid to attack them as we do the christian right... because even though they don't see civil rights as binding us together, we do.
and we also realize that religion has a HUGE impact on their reasons for viewing it that way.
More importantly, those white gays just assumed that the exist poll was scientifically accurate. No concern about its validity was considered, instead it was typical lynch mob mentality and blaming the Negroes became acceptable. But what's equally important to note is the refusal to examine the fact that African-Americans represent only 6% of California's population.
The whole failure of No on 8, however, was dropped in the lap of California's population, conveniently and in a self-serving manner ignoring the culpability of the majority of Californians. Again, it was easier to become a crazed, racist lynch mob than deal with facts.
Disgusting comments about how that white gays had voted for Obama and that Blacks owed them were frequently issued. Nevermind that voting for Obama was not voting for Blacks but was done out of self-interests, many white gays just linked Obama's blackness to that of African-Americans. Of course, those gays were quick to ignore the obvious fact that Obama had deliberately disassociated himself from African-American groups as witnessed by his refusal to attend primarily black-themed events like the annual NAACP conference or Tavis Smiley's Townhall session.
Nate Silver of Fivethirtyeight.com sliced the numbers previously and showed how unscientific the exit poll was. He also explained that most of the pro-Prop 8 voters across racial lines were older and or religious.
As the whole Prop 8 debacle was examined, facts showed that the No on 8 campaign ignored the suggestions of GLBT activists of color. Little attention was paid to advertising or communicating directly with communities of color.
Finally, there is this incredibly stupid insistence to create this monolithic "African-American community" that thinks and acts alike.
What disappoints about this whole conversation is the lack of reflection and honesty that amongst the "gay community," 50-percent of gay voters did not vote. Be honest, do you think that if African-, Latino-, or Asian-Americans were about to lose their right to marry that 50% of eligible voters would sit at home? Of course, not. Yet, there is no self-examination amongst most gay commentators or pundits about this fact. It's far easier to blame others.
great point, 50% of people in san fransico did NOT vote, that was SHOCKING to me.
Link
what is hilarious is that ONLY one poll (CNN) was used, but everybody used just that one poll so they could finally use the N-word which being called racist.
again just saying.
I've been one of the most consistent posters here calling that 70% number bogus so you're barking up the wrong tree.
and if they cannot get SF which is only one spot, how the fuck can they get an accurate stats from a 6% black population that is scattered in california?
I am not an expert, and I can tell when people are overstating (to put it politely ) their case.
For example, I actually had one person telling me that he could use the subsample from the CNN poll to determine whether AAs were more likely to be homophobic than whites across America. Not just in CA- but America.
Up above we have some poster who after i point out that the problem is a problem across the racial lines, and is indeed one that is confusing correlation (the fact you see high percentage of AAs against marriage) with causation (that it's race rather than some other attribute like religion that defines the class). He or she pretends that still its about race.
I can't take these conversations seriously anymore. Stats are meant to aid in understanding what's happening. Taking a higher number without understanding what's behind it so that we can move forward into the future regarding effective messaging and political strategies is virtually useless.
Given what I know of No on 8, I am curious for example across the country and cross the board- how many organizations given the mix of races were ever focused on reaching out to the black community to persuade them?
I don't know the answer to that, but that would be a solutions oriented approach.
This sort of post by the site owner is navel gazing because we aren't thinking of solutions. Just defining correlations that fit neatly into pre concieved ideas. If we end up thinkiin g this is about race rather tha religion we miss how to message properly. The same vacuum that's been the problem for 30 years now with the gay leadership will continue.
In addition to blacks being a pretty small percentage of the California population, a lot of people forget that blacks in California vote differently than blacks in some other states. Just like whites in California vote differently than whites in some other states. So on and so on....
People should remember that the NAACP of California is one of the groups at the forefront of fighting for marriage equality here; and one of the lead plaintiffs in the cases the Supreme Court is currently reviewing. We have a number of black and hispanic state leaders that support our fight for equality. It is wrongheaded and stupid to place the blame on prop 8 passing on black California voters.
we saw this again in the california, where there was no reach-out done to the minority community, i was shocked to see that even in ads there were NO minority representation, the ONLY ad i saw that even had a minority representation was the "samual L. jackson" where he didn't even physically appear in.
maybe if we (minorities) were represented in the gay community, the minority community would NOT look as
"gay = white". just saying.
A little known stat- the black community was actually more rather than less supportive of gays inthe past. Why is that the case? My feeling is that as I say above that its probably the causation fo the type of christianity that has been pushed over the last few decades rather than about race itself. That race is not the cause but instead a corleation.
But the site owner would hve to actually want to look into these things, and look at how to correct them.
I think the Gay (White) community needs to take a good, hard look in the mirror before they start pointing fingers and scapegoating the Black community.
my job here is to take notice because people like me in multiple communities are TIRED of defending people that do not defend me, tired of it all.
I agree. If you look at the how the "gay community" is portrayed, it is usually upper and middle class white gay men like the cute, acceptable gays on "Brothers and Sisters."
How often do you see positive portrayals of queers of color in the media? Gay Asian men are generally portrayed as comic relief in TV and films. Black gay men are usually shown as drag queens and prostitutes. Lesbian women of color are mostly seen as ultra masculine.
It's sad.
http://www.thetaskforce.org/about_us/staff_dire...
I have a pet theory that I always tell people. One of the reason Brokeback Mountain did so well was no only did it have stars, but the story involved low income people rather than the standard gays in the ghetto stories of the last 20years. This is the mentality that is holding the gay rights effort back on the political end. No one sees our suffering. Some of that is because they don't want to see it. Some of it is that our leadership refuses to show it.
so that does not say much, when the organisation favors one side or another, putting a new face on it changes NOTHING, what needs to change is the policies, it is the policies that dictated what ads, and who to market it to in proposition 8. the policies neglected the minority communities and started to notice them only after the fact, but instead of changing policies they decided to call them the N-word, as if that would change the laws.
just saying.
Gay men and women have supported the equal rights movement going back to its roots in the 50's and 60's. Gay men and women haven't just begun to notice minority communities, gay men and women have known that racial equality is directly tied to their equality for decades.
Sure, you feel rejected because you feel that you were not represented in an ad campaign. (Maybe you didn't see all the ads?)
Well, I feel rejected every time leaders in the black community say that gay rights is not a legitimate cause. I feel rejected when Barack Obama says he personally doesn't believe in my right to marry. I feel rejected that people can say these things and nobody even blinks, as if that is just fine to hold such opinions.
I haven't heard anyone call anyone the "N" word, but I have noticed that the word is so stigmatized that you cannot even spell it.
Also, why do you expect that the mythical African-American community would be less homophobic than the rest of society? Homophobia IS alive and well throughout American society. How many states in the U.S. don't have anti-gay discrimination laws? Weren't the leaders of the Yes on 8 campaign white?
There is this magical disconnect from the responsibility of white Americans for leading the anti-gay charge. Because the "gay community" in the U.S. is largely white some white gays refuse to tie the white race to homophobic villainy in the same manner that they are to do so against people of color.
I am in the LA area and called the NoOn8 campaign hoping to do door-to-door campaigning IN SPANISH to the latino community. I never got a call back even to confirm the spanish-speaking phone banks they have set up.
I was so ready to walk the neighborhoods and talk in Spanish to the latino community.
The NoOn8 is also at fault for not doing a good job with the minority community.
They can't say there were no latino ready to help because I certainly was ready.
If you are in Los Angeles THIS SATURDAY!, January 10, 2009
2:00 PM – Action Fair
6:00 PM – Live Performance of “Prop. 8: The Musical”
http://www.equalroots.com/
As part of a national ‘Day of Protest’ against the 1996 Federal Defense of Marriage Act (DOMA) – which prevents the federal government from recognizing same-sex marriages performed in any of the nation’s 50 states – thousands of LGBT Angelenos and their allies will gather at THE RESOLUTION, an action fair focusing on the fights for marriage equality and against DOMA. Members of the community will be given an opportunity to go booth to booth and perform direct actions such as signing a postcard to Obama, writing a letter to a congressperson, signing a petition, and much more. There will also be a museum setup at the fair featuring artifacts from LGBT history ranging from legal documents to the personal items of Harvey Milk.
No, we won't eliminate it, but we may be able to close the margins on issues such as Prop 8 by showing AA people that we are human beings. Yeah I know we should not HAVE to teach people not to hate us, but since they have been taught to hate us, I see no other option as potentially viable.
If you have, I'd certainly like to see it posted.
It might be a good idea to stop this whining about this and go out and actually TALK to ordinary people in the Black community. It's not that hard to do and you just may get some understanding and good will rooted in the process. It worked for me.
Prop 8 was pretty close. Perhaps addressing the nuanced differences in bigotry against LGBT people across communities we can make progress.
That said, yes some LGBT people are racist. People are people, and in every group there are people who have serious issues with others. Perhaps reducing homophobia across cultures will also work to lessen racism in the LGBT Community. Understanding is a two-way street.
Along this line, I wonder if you could spotlight what is going on in Cleveland with the partner registry? There are good stories over at the Gay Peoples' Chronicle you could link to. In a nutshell, a few weeks ago, Cleveland followed in the footsteps of Toledo and Cleveland Heights (where I live) and passed, 13-7, a registry that would allow domestic partners to put themselves on record so that they could be considered a couple, for instance, for hospital visitation. It created no legal relationship. It was opposed by 7 black east-Side councilpeople. Immediately after this a group of eight black pastors started to organize to try to get signatures to put it to a vote and repeal it. They are doing a masterful job of talking out of both sides of their collective mouths. The leader of the effort, the Rev. C.J. Matthews, is trying to claim he didn't pressure any councilpeople to vote against it, has tried to say he's NOT the leader, and has even apparently said he doesn't even know what the registry does, hard to believe for this higher educated but clearly bigoted man. I'm particularly distressed and perplexed by the Rev. Marvin McMickle, one of the most prominent pastors in the city, who initially appeared with Matthews on this but now sort of kind of seems to be distancing himself from - something or another. Incredibly mealy-mouthed and especially disturbing considering that in September, when he threw his hat in the ring to be considered for the empty congressional seat of Stephanie Tubbs Jones, he told members of the democratic county executive committee that although he had opposed gay marriage, he favoured civil unions and all rights for gays. Now it appears that stance may have been opportunistic, it's hard to say. I find all of this disturbing. we have had this registry in Cleveland Heights for five years and nothing bad has happened as a result of it. (In fact, it directly led to our defeating the single councilperson who was against it, the homophobic Rev. Jimmie Hicks Jr whom we replaced with a gay man!)
Calling someone a racist used to be a great way to silence someone with an opinion you didn't want to hear. But all that is changing now that we've elected Obama. America is moving ahead, and that is a good thing. And just like when those who opposed Burris were called racists, Obama himself has made a statement that throws cold water on the finger pointers. I have to agree once again with Obama. Anti-gay prejudice is huge in the black community and needs to be dealt with honestly.
Obama addressing homophobia is a far cry from your insisting that the 70% number is correct even though multiple statisticians have disproved the 70% number.
You are embracing the number because it fits your view point. Any other evidence to the contrary is meaningless to you. What separates you from the creationists who reject scientific evidence to support evolution? You and they reject scientific evidence because it disagrees with your opinions.
By the way, the Planet Earth is round. Seriously, it is a round sphere that is kind of squished. See, it really is not flat. You can actually sail in a boat around the world without having to worry that you will fall off the edge of the planet!!
Oh, I think you should really try to accept that the universe does not revolve around the Earth. The Earth and all of the planets in the solar system actually are satellites of our sun, Sol.
And babies, seriously, storks don't deliver them. Babies come from a woman's womb.
I can tell you more about the weird stuff others and I call science!
The reason for my thinking the 70% figure is probably closer to the truth is because I believe there to be more homophobia in the black community than in other groups. So does Obama. That doesn't make either one of us a racist. It just means we have our eyes open to what is going on. The reason I suspect the study is that it didn't do a good job of hiding its intent. I didn't come across as an unbiased study that just happened to come up with the conclusion that a lower number of blacks supported Prop 8 than originally reported. It went for that conclusion from beginning to end. There were a number of clues about its pre-intent that just jumped out and said, "Hello".
BTW, I wonder if Nate Silver and authors of this most recent study would have a case for libel against Rigamortis? All of the authors are noted statisticians whose livelihoods could be adversely impacted by claims calling into question their devotion to the rules of statistical analysis.
Judge: "RitornaVincitor, AKA RigorMortis, do you wish to call a defense witness?"
Me: "Yes, your honor. I wish to call as my first defense witness President Barack Obama who said, 'And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean. If we're honest with ourselves, we'll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King's vision of a beloved community. We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them."'
As for your defense,because Obama gives a speech says nothing about the actual percentage of people who might of voted yes or no on Prop 8. That's not how science works. Obama is just one person. He's neither god with all seeing eyes, nor is he a social scientist who has done extensive interviews with subsequent statistical analysis of a representative pool of 50 million people!
Rick Warren says gays are the equivalent of pedophiles. So, that of course, based on your logic, is scientific evidence!
In conclusion, you continue to refuse to answer any questions with facts to counter statistics. You provide no evidence of problems with the statistical methodology of either study but offer a speech of Obama. "Hey, Obama's black; so, he knows every thing about every black person in America."
Now I will address your arguments which of course are a deflection from the real issue. As I said at the very beginning of this illuminating discussion, any study can "prove" anything it sets out to prove. It can be "proved", for example, that smoking does not cause cancer. Tobacco companies "proved" it many times in the past. The reason Obama needed to address the prejudice in the black community is because it is a major problem. And that was evident to all long before Obama addressed it. Any statistics that show blacks did not support Prop 8 in significantly larger proportions than other groups have to have been doctored. I could, for example, allow you to divert me into discussing Timothy Kincaid's article in which he refutes the 58% figure, and then we could shrink this comment section into a long, thin line down the right side of the monitor as we trade back and forth stabs at proving statistics. But that would be just more diversion. Or we could go off on a tangent about how Mr. Obama was elected not because of his membership in the African American community, but because of the degree to which he is apart from it. But that too is a diversion. The truth is obvious, hence your need to go off on tangents.
Now your response will of course be to continue along the line that the doctored statistics are correct. And with that you hope to ignore the truth. But now that means you must ignore Obama's message as well.
Well, don't you sound like a perfect Bushie! Michelle Malkin and Ann Coulter must be quaking in their boots because another twister of facts and figures is making her way onto the scene!
Hip, hip, hooray! Rigamortis is here to save the day!
A book burnin' she'll bring this day!
CNN admitted that it's poll was flawed! Nate Silver of FiveThirtyEight.com ripped apart the poll and showed how it was faulty.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/12/nate-s...
When you were a kid, did you cover your ears and scream nonsense when you did not want to hear what others had to say?
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Psst! It's true, water freezes at 32 degrees Fahrenheit/ 0 degrees Celsius.
Science! Weird science!!
Nobody is discussing the just how destructive homophobia in the black community oppresses its true victims: Black gays and lesbians. It is like this homophobia wasn't an important issue before we lost our right to marry, but now it is - but only because it affects those of us who want to marry.
Maybe when we start caring about the world around us and not just our fucking looks and dick sizes, this homophobia will go away. And my criticism goes for black gays too.
Dude,
Just how "bright" are you? Not that scintillating it would seem: You are lumping all African-Americans together ignoring class, education, wealth, sexual orientation, and, of course religious affiliation: There are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Scientologist, and whole bunch of other religions to which African-Americans belong. How many sects of Christianity are there? Do all of the Christian sects offer the same teachings?
Did you forget that Barack Obama attended Trinity United Church of Christ. The much maligned Revered Wright supports gay marriages.
Why must homophobia amongst African-Americans soley be discussed from a top down view based on race? Yeah, well, we know the answer: it's far easier to take all African-Americans, regardless of age, religious affiliation, class, education, age, and SEXUAL ORIENTATION, and dump them into the proverbial intellectual meat grinder to produce a consistent, easily manipulated mass.
All of this seems to go back to the white controlled media's need for a great black leader who can be summoned to pretend to speak for all African-Americans. Al Sharpton is the toast of Fox News because he's their creation. What do 50 million individual Americans decide in their hive mind, Al? Al, can you tell us about the latest telepathic communication you had with 50 million people just now?
Do you remember how just a few years ago, every TV would say that an African-American was "streetwise"? Yep, little Susie, whose parents were school teachers or bankers or doctors, and who grew up in upper middle class suburbia, was automatically streetwise. Don't be fooled by her school books or college education, Susie was streetwise!
I have encountered countless confrontational stances and incalcintrant intolearance on gay right discussions; when otherwise cordial conversations with said friends and co workers are equally surprisingly not fought with their heels completely entrenched in their religious teachings.
When one argues that it is not a black issue, I am reminded of the countless of articles I frequently read of even more draconian laws, concepts, attitudes and actions against the gay communities in African countries.
To deny that there is an overwhelming embedded homophobia in the American conservative black community is simply a denial of an obvious reality.
What the gay community should do is acknowledge that there is work to be done; educational and political. The gay community can no longer afford as a voting group to disenfranchise it's political goals by voting for black candidates that are equally as homophobic and bigotted on gay right issues as are white conservative religious Republicans and Democrats.
Gay Democrats have blindly voted for fellow black Democrats in local, state and federal campaigns, without regard to the inherent religious conservative consequences.
This unquestioned support of fellow black Democrat candidates to school boards, or commissions, or judgships, or political offices must cease. The gay community must solicit candidates not the basis of political party or race or religion; but, the gay community must inquire into the stance on gay issues and support that any candidate will offer towards gay rights goals.
To ignore that the conservative religious black community is prejudice against gay issues is ignorance and a folly that cannot be any longer tolerated.
Vote smart.
Let me give you guys a suggestion, if you have or have not studied, the struggle of black people in America, and the civil rights movement. Go and study or go back and study that history. You guys need to be electing people, at all levels of government. You need to be in the streets today and everyday. Not what you have been doing, a protest here and there. Get off of your ass and demand equal rights. You can cry and moan all day on the net.
I have been coming here daily, for at least the last 2 years, because you guys really do cover the news well. But since that vote on prop 8, you guys have lost it. And the invitation of Rick Warren to speak, you guys really got nasty on that one.
One last thought, I care about a black preacher just as much as I do a white preacher. I care for the black church as much as I do for the white church. You have gay preachers also black or white, when you see a preacher, ask him are you gay? Are you a crook, what is your sin? Change the topic from you to them. Are you perfect? Stop lying on god, I would not trust a preacher as far as I can see his ass.
I am out of here, thank you for letting me vent. But please stop with the blacks this the blacks that. Kiss my ass mf, I don't play that way.
Anything else is a non-starter.
Meanwhile Barak Obama is a powerful speaker, lets HOPE and PRAY that his deeds will equal the strength and power of his words.. So far, for gay people in this country.. hope seems to be nothing more than the title of a best selling book and the name of a small town in arkansas,
lets see