As America entered the horse latitudes of summer, befogged in a muffling stillness on deceptively calm seas, we were distracted for a while by visions of a pale death angel moonwalking across the deck of collective consciousness. Eerie parallels resound between the sordid demise of pop singer Michael Jackson and the fate of the nation.
Like the United States, Michael Jackson was spectacularly bankrupt, reportedly in the range of $800-million, which is rather a lot for an individual. Had he lived on a few more years, he might have qualified for his own TARP program -- snip --
Like the USA, Michael Jackson was a has-been. He hadn't recorded a song worth listening to in over two decades. He had done almost nothing but spin his wheels, hop around the globe from one place to another at enormous expense, and make himself available for award ceremonies to stoke his ego (and give advertisers a reason to promote some televised award show). He existed strictly on image, an anorectic figure nourished by moonbeams of attention, famous for saying that he loved his worshippers when the truth was he merely sucked the life out of them.
--More at link, but you get the point . . .
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
Yeah, I get that point. Whomever wrote that is an idiot.
nicho
· 5 months ago
But he knows grammar . . . Pffft
jpjones
· 5 months ago
ROFLMAO!!!!!
James L. Greenlee
· 5 months ago
Whenever I see a post like this--especially from one of my favorite bloggers--I feel compelled to say something on this particular matter.
A good friend and former roommate of mine knew and worked for Michael Jackson for many years, including the years in question. Having heard some of the background of the stories, and given that my friend is one of the most trustworthy people I know, I'm inclined to believe the molestation charges are not true.
Now, I know that this sounds like a "friend of a friend" story, but for me, it is only one degree of separation. Having been to the ranch a couple of times, my gut feeling is added to my friends' recollections. I know this won't likely change any minds. And I completely agree that Michael was VERY odd, and likely troubled in many other ways. But the kiddie stuff? Totally don't believe it. For what it's worth.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
It would be helpful if you told us ANYTHING you or your friend witnessed which would bolster your belief that the "charges are not true".
greenleegazette
· 5 months ago
I was purposefully being vague, because to my knowledge, my friend had never spoken publically about his employment. Since Michael's death, he has. So, here you go, a link to his own comments.
As I said, he was a friend and roommate, and one of the nicest and most trustworthy people I've ever known. He worked for Michael closely for the better part of a decade.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
You are accusing children of lying under oath, and your evidence is... your friend liked his employer.
greenleegazette
· 5 months ago
You don't have to believe me. I'm just relating what I knew, as best I can without revealing any confidences. My friend said--and I believed him--that if he thought the allegations were true, he would no longer work there. He knew many of the people involved with the story, and had first-hand experience with them.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
Fair enough. I don't begrudge your trust in, or loyalty to, your friend. But you DO assert that these children are lying without offering anything to back up your claim other than your friend's faith in the person who paid his income for the last 14 years. Your friend may be a wonderful human being - I have no basis to suggest otherwise. But as an impartial observer, I have to say that everything I've read about the situation, and my own common sense, leads me to believe these boys, and the mere fact that your friend eulogizes his boss doesn't alter that.
greenleegazette
· 5 months ago
Unlike most employee/employer relationships, my friend worked at MJ's home. For close to a decade. If you saw his occupation, you know that he worked in close proximity to the very children you talked about.
My aim with this post was to present--as best I could--the opinion of someone who knows a lot more about the situation than the rest of us do. I realize I can't go very far with that. I wish I could say more, but most of the discussions we had about those allegations were many years ago, and though I was able to form an opinion based on them, I no longer have precise details, even if I felt it was my place.
I guess that's all I have to say on the matter.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
You keep making allusions to someone "who know a lot more about the situation than the rest of us do", who according to the link you provided worked at Neverland for 14 years, and you clearly state that you believe the accusations these boys made against MJ are false, and yet you consistently refuse to offer ANY EVIDENCE to back up your claim.
Despite my disagreement with your opinion, I have tried to be respectful and coax out of you SOMETHING that would give your assertion some credibility, but you consistently refuse to offer any. If you are going to continue accusing these children of lying under oath, you need to offer SOMETHING of substance, or just admit that you cannot and that your need to believe in MJ and your friend trumps the credibility of these young boys and all common sense and human decency.
greenleegazette
· 5 months ago
What is it exactly that you want me to say? I've told you that I know a trustworthy person, who has extensive knowledge of the "defendent" and of the circumstances behind the claims. He believes the charges to be untrue. Based on my friendship with him, I'm inclined to believe him. What evidence could I possibly provide that would satisfy you? All I've got is the word of somebody who was in a position to know more about the circumstances than we do. What evidence COULD I have? I'm done, dude, believe what you want.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
All I want is for you to back up your claim. Your the one who came here asserting that the boys - and I assume you mean all of them - are lying. Just give something on which you base your claim. It's that simple. You came here posting and making your assertion. Just back it up. With something. Anything.
We are in synch on one thing - I am so done with this whole post. I've learned that people will believe what they need to believe, and no amount of evidence will change THAT.
greenleegazette
· 5 months ago
OK, I really thought I was done. Just one last thing.
I really don't have anything more left to say about what I know. But I can give you a little more that might give you an insight into my friend's character.
In all the years he worked at Neverland, you have never seen his name in the press. Through all of the scandals, through all of this MJ-madness going on right now, you still haven't.
There are exactly two messages from him on the board I linked to, and even there, his full name hasn't been given. By now, he surely could have cashed in. Could have been on MSNBC and FOX "News" and 20/20, either as a defender or a detractor. But he didn't. I even ran a Google search on his name. Not one hit.
I have nothing else for you. And I'm not sure what you mean about "all those boys." I know of two. And I am not beyond believing that they were coaxed, no. Both of them are probably grown by now, and they will undoubtedly be spilling their stories for us soon enough.
I have no reason to protect or defend Michael Jackson. I didn't come here with that aim, only to give a different perspective from what little I know on the subject. Lots of other people here have opined from both sides. Everyone has got an opinion. You have mine.
Now I'm done.
fl79tr
· 5 months ago
Obviously you don't know any children. They are more likely than adults to lie convincingly and without guilt. If you don't believe me, go sign up to be a substitute teacher at your local school.
As an added bonus, here's another anecdote for you,
When I was a kid, some local children falsely accused a guy in my neighborhood of molesting them. It was a lie. But the damage was so great that he lost his job, and everything else. It actually didn't take long for him to killed himself once he realized there was no redeeming himself. Shortly after, the kids admitted to lying. In this case there was no motive other malice or stupidity on the part of the kids. The guy wasn't rich, he had no social status. My point is that kids are not saints, they are a combination of what their parents put into them and the untamed animal that we all start off as before society tames us through the process we call "growing up."
aratina
· 5 months ago
Salem Witch Trials. Hello?!
Jophus
· 5 months ago
-Removed-
Endorpha
· 5 months ago
Personally, MJ's music had a profound effect on my life. His alleged pedophilia, nearly zero effect. I'll choose celebration over condemnation every time.
Drew Brathwaite
· 5 months ago
"Shouldn't the latter outweigh the former?"
The fact that he was a brilliant entertainer is self evident. He was never convicted of child molestation - ever. I give more weight to established fact than suspicion.
Tamyrlin
· 5 months ago
While expressing moral disapproval and refusing to buy Michael's work as a means of moral protest may have been appropriate during life, there is no one left to shame now.
Additionally, the trial on these charges DID return a 'not guilty' verdict, and that ought to count for something in weighing his legacy, even if he was convicted in the court of public opinion at the time in a "where there's smoke, there's fire" kind of way.
Thus, I think it is entirely appropriate, now that he is dead, to celebrate what was great about Michael Jackson and the positive things he contributed to our culture, while acknowledging that he was a strange man who had his faults.
eric
· 5 months ago
Wasn't there a trial for which Michael Jackson was acquitted? I remember the great entertainer Sammy Davis Jr. once stated on television that every time he sees a cute little kid (a boy in this case) he wanted to bite his bottom. Also we saw more recently Russian President Vladimir Putin suddenly kissing a little boy on the tummy. Were they child molesters?
Indigo
· 5 months ago
Many Americans hold to the principle of innocent until proven guilty.
nicho
· 5 months ago
That's only in a court and refers only to where the burden of proof lies. We are free to believe what we want.
If Michael Jackson had come to your house and invited your 10-year-old son for a sleepover, you would have been free to refuse on the grounds that you believed MJ to be a child molester.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
you are free to believe what you want. so are Republicans. so is the KKK. psst... burden of proof is important.
Gridlock
· 5 months ago
so you'd let your kids have a sleepover with him then?
doggril
· 5 months ago
What you suspect he might have done should not outweigh what you know he accomplished.
houstonray
· 5 months ago
I like your statement...short, concise, and to the point. Kudos!
Nick_Upstate
· 5 months ago
More news on Michael Jackson regarding a powerful sleep aid that he was apparently taking and may even have caused his death, combined with an injection that he received the morning of his death. http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/03/powerful... My view is that it is a sad way to be remembered.
cowboyneok
· 5 months ago
I'm sick to DEATH of Michael Jackson 24 / 7 coverage! I liked him when he wasn't such a freak show carnival but lost my appetite for him about ten years ago. ENOUGH already! And the pedophilia stuff is just sickening. Even if he wasn't actually guilty of doing anything someone his age doesn't SLEEP with other's children unless they have something WRONG with them! My opinion which I'm obviously never afraid to share? His premature death is an end result of that train wreck of a life.
cybergal619
· 5 months ago
It's not just you, John. I look at it that the world is minus one child molestor/predator. I don't care if he was acquitted 100 times. He was a liar and a manipulator and a drug abuser. I'm just a raging cynic, I guess. I couldn't understand what all the fuss was about when Elvis died either.
markf217
· 5 months ago
Some of the same news media personalities who ridiculed MJ a few years ago are now behaving as though MJ died for our sins. Ugh! I am really over this whole deal. Karl Malden was a greater loss to me. Did you know right-winger John Wayne, the prototypical yellow elephant, refused to serve in WWII because he wasn't offered an officer's commission. He was too good to enlist and only wore a military uniform in the movies. Malden served honorably as an NCO in the U.S. Air Force during World War II. Our WWII veterans are dying off and I hate to see Mr. Malden go. He was a versatile actor. I loved Malden in "Baby Doll" and the Hitchcock classic "I Confess."
Judas Peckerwood
· 5 months ago
But, but, but don't you understand that celebrity is the most desirable trait one can possess in America, and that it trumps piddling distractions such as being a likely sexual abuser of children?
Get your priorities straight, cybergal!
markf217
· 5 months ago
SFC Edward Kramer, SGT Roger Adams, SGT Juan Baldeosingh, and SPC Robert Bittiker, all from North Carolina, died June 29 when an IED was detonated near their vehicle in Baghdad. I feel sad that these men (and others dying in combat) aren't mourned with public vigils, carpet media coverage, commentary by prominent persons. Military deaths from this unnecessary war have become more of a cold statistic than a cause for national regret. Michael Jackson was honored this week with a moment of silence in the U.S. House of Representatives. These four good soldiers haven't received that honor from the legislators who voted to send them into war. I wasn't really into Michael Jackson's music. He was adjudicated as innocent, but his behavior with children seemed very inappropriate (including dangling his own baby from a balcony). That said, MJ does have three young children, siblings, parents. I feel sad for them in their grief. But they aren't the only ones who are mourning right now. And my thoughts have been more focused on our dead troops and their families.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
wow. wow, wow, wow... The Michael Jackson hating here is crazy. he's not even in the ground yet and ya'll are trashing his grave. So you prefer Beethoven and Elvis and I am the walrus (but no, nobody doing any illegal drugs while listening to that little diddy.. anybody see that sheet of acid??) but that's just bad form. Having bad taste, no sense of pop culture, and being hypocrites is one thing. Ignoring his obvious and inevitable mental illness and developmental disorders that were a direct result of his childhood and extreme fame and talent in your rush to convict him where a court of law would not, is just sick.
nicho
· 5 months ago
But then we've got you as the president of the "We Adore Michael" fan club to balance things out. I'm guessing you have erected an altar to his memory, right next to your computer desk in your parent's basement.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
yes I am a Michael Jackson fan. you are a Michael Jackson hater.
seeing as MJ has sold more records then anybody... ever, I'm happy to be with the rest of the world on this.
Kevin
· 5 months ago
Its real interesting that people believe he's a molestor when if you look at the cases (especially the last one) where it was proven that he did not touch the kid. And when the prosecution brought people to the stand, they said they could prove he molested. Every single one denied that he touched them, even though ex-employees (with axes to grind) said they saw them touched including Maculuy Culkin (was said to be molested and also denied Michael did anything to him). But we want america to respect us (gay men and women) and not think of us as kid touchers without proof but demonize Michael Jackson who we think is werid (that's ok that's opinion) and say he's a kid toucher even though he's never been convicted as such or have any proof to offer other than opinion and not fact.
shell
· 5 months ago
There are so many reasons TO praise his music and entertainment. First of all, he was never convicted of child molestation. But look at the man's face -- totally messed up. Anyone who has taken Psychology 101 knows there was deep psychological problems with this person.
As for the child molestation, I will tell you this -- as a MOTHER of 3 -- there was never a case against him by a real victim. End of story. If my child HAD been molested, it would be ONE time. These mothers who sent their kids over there for days, weeks, months on end -- unsupervised -- and their sons WERE molested, the parents should be prosecuted. But of course, that never happened. Why? There was no molestation, IMO.
As I said, IF this had happened to one of my children, it would have happened only ONCE. And if that were the case, he could have offered me $100 million and I wouldn't have settled. No books would have been written. I would just want justice, and to heal my child.
Isn't it interesting that every single parent would sell their child's soul for money?
I suspect Michael is still a child. It is all out there to see. People laugh at that, and his deformed face. But it is not funny. It is sad. And most Americans laughed at him, and then wanted to stone him to death.
Shame on America -- most are as shallow as tissue paper.
Sandra Miller
· 5 months ago
Shell, great comment. I have said for years that no amount of money could make me walk away from anyone my child said hurt them. I would have their head on a platter! Not a fat bank account. He was a sad and lonely person and I would love to see some of the "enablers" around most celebrities prosecuted! With that said let me also that I find MJ's music much easier to listen to than the trash on the radio today.
Roger Simon
· 5 months ago
The situation in Iran continues to perilous, yet the death of Michael the molester sucks all air out of the media. So it goes.
John, hope you're well. Roger
onlinesavant
· 5 months ago
Where's your proof that Michael was a molester? Where? Just because you say something does'nt make it true. We do know Elvis was a child molester though. Incontrovertible. Oh, and btw, and this does'nt mitigate it at all, but i'm quite sure Michael had little girls over also.Why does'nt the media allow this out. Maybe because it makes him seem less ominous
nicho
· 5 months ago
Hitler apparently took the news of MJ's death rather poorly
A very belated "thank you". I finally watched this and got the belly laugh I've needed ever since this whole conversation began!
Dave of the Jungle
· 5 months ago
I draw the line at Jesus Juice.
OregDon
· 5 months ago
Glad to see someone else is a bit fed up with the questionably over done wringing of hands. (Jon Stewart hit it about right with his RIPPY Awards from last night)
in any event, I don't bloody recall this much of a fuss when Bette Davis died. .now there was a real cause for hand wringing!
:-)
cowboyneok
· 5 months ago
LOL! exacty!
jpjones
· 5 months ago
I got flamed for implying that BEETHOVEN was more talented than Michael Jackson. Buckle your seatbelt dude, you're in for a bumpy ride!
gemischt
· 5 months ago
I have never read that a famous 50 year old pedophile has only had 2 sexual encounters that would have been made public. If there were more, don't you think by the 1990's, the children or young adults who were sexually abused by then or by 2005, would have come out to the world or been outed during his recent molestation trial since the Prosecutor, Tom Sneddon, had been trying for years to get Mr. Jackson?
cowboyneok
· 5 months ago
I wish everyone would just STOP with the whole wailing and gnashing of teeth regarding Michael Jackson! Its a conspiracy, folks! He finally got his sex change and will be living as Latoya 100% of the time:
Please don't tell me you actually think that's funny.
cowboyneok
· 5 months ago
Well, its not if you take it too seriously.
My best African American trans-friend didn't see the photo but when I told her the joke she thought it was funny, and she lives in damned Oklahoma!
She was like, "Uh huh!!!" and then giggled...
Okay, I have a sick sense of humor! Guilty! Sorry if I offended anyone's sensibilities...
Jimmy
· 5 months ago
Jackson was certainly strange -- no one can deny that -- but was he a pedophile? I don't know. He was never convicted. I questioned his actions when the trial was all over the airwaves, but what it sounded like to me was a grown man who was more child than man, who related better to children than adults. Was it creepy? Sure, but does that make him a pedophile? Again, I don't know. Considering the abuse he and the rest of his family suffered at the hands of their father I tend to think Jackson had some real psychological problems.
As for the non-stop retrospectives, well, he is one of the most well-known entertainers in the world with sales that have yet to be matched by any entrainer. It's not surprising.
Jade Jordan
· 5 months ago
John, I am offended that you chose to defame someone who is dead. I disagree that most people think he was a pedophile. The outpouring of love and support is because people don't think he was a pedophile but a victim of a society that can't stand anyone that is different.
As a gay person how do you feel when people consider all gay men pedophiles? That is an unfair conclusion and I correct everyone who makes that comparison in my presence.
Jackson was the victim of money grubbing grifters who used his weirdness against him. A pedophilia is a compulsive mental illness. A pedophile could not be around the hundreds of children Jackson was on a constant basis and molest two children 20 years apart. Pedophilia does not work that way.
I know you are angry because gay issues aren't being handled as quickly as you wish they were. Don't take it out on Michael. Even huge fans of Mike, like me are tired of the 24 hour coverage.
You are a better person than this.
Gridlock
· 5 months ago
LOL he was a victim! a victim! He carved his face up and turned into a 50 year old drug addicted white woman who had sleepovers with strange children cuz he had a bad childhood! Wah! Boohoo! OH THE AGONY!
Please.
If it had been a 50 year old 250 lb hairy plumber down the road having sleepovers with little boys his ass would be in jail rotting for 60 years.
The only way Jacko gets excused is because of freaks like you who simply look the other way cuz he made some catchy pop tunes 20 years ago.
Take that away and what do you have? A 50 year old weirdo having sleepovers with other people's children in a locked room sporting a safe with "art" books of naked kids that somehow manage to find their way into the collections of convicted pedophiles, all protected with alarms in the hallway so he'd know if anybody was coming near the room.
But you know.. he was a victim and whatever.
rexkc
· 5 months ago
I am not conflicted at all. I knew when he died that we would get weeks of media frenzy that would distract attention from anything important. And while its a shock when anyone dies, I was not surprised he died relatively young. One could have predicted it given his weird lifestyle. I just try to tune out all the hype, which basically means you can't turn the tv on. Luckily, I am otherwise distracted by moving and a new job.
Jophus
· 5 months ago
Meanwhile people are being oppressed during their attempted revolution, the economy is free falling again, and millions of Americans are out of work.... OMG who is going to take care of the kids now?!
Everyone needs to move on.
Blonkert
· 5 months ago
I was one of those people who truly believed that MJ was a pedophile, and I still believe that today. The fact that he is gone does not change who he was.
I also believe that his death has cleared the way for all of us to appreciate and recognize his talent - and his talent was substantial and real.
I miss the little boy who I grew up with, watching the Jackson 5 cartoon on Saturday morning. I feel sad for that little boy, because I truly believe he was never allowed to be just a child. He was, and is, a work horse and money bag for his warped parents (yes Katherine too). Joe seems overjoyed because now he finally has another shot at all that money - and if Katherine has it, you had better believe that Joe will have his fingers in it as well.
I AM sick to death of the way the mainstream 'media' has handled the Jackson story. As usual, they should feel VERY ashamed of themselves. The mainstream 'media' wriggle in every minor or major scandal like a dog rolling in the remains of a dead animal - because they like the scent and they want all of us to smell it too. They are disgusting.
Edward R. Murrow is rolling in his grave.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
Blonkert, you may have the best post of us all on this subject. I couldn't agree more with everything you said.
zorbear
· 5 months ago
"The mainstream 'media' wriggle in every minor or major scandal like a dog rolling in the remains of a dead animal - because they like the scent and they want all of us to smell it too. They are disgusting."
Perfectly stated - absolutely perfect.
Lori
· 5 months ago
It matters not what people suspect when when there is no proof to back it up. Jackson was acquited on all 14 counts of molestation charges, and the kid who accused him changed his story more times than a baby's diaper gets changed. Rumor and speculation should not overide something that is real and verifiable, which is that Jackson was an electrifying and groundbreaking entertainer.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
"the kid who accused him changed his story more times than a baby's diaper gets changed."
OK, then - please cite examples, with attributions. I'll settle for 3, since that would be WAY LESS than the number of times a baby's diaper gets changed.
bluebear
· 5 months ago
He's dead. I don't know what purpose is served by continuing speculation and rehashing about his weirdness, but that's just me. He doesn't need to be "deified" as some commenters point out, but I don't know what is progressive about dragging his memory through the muck either.
jules1721
· 5 months ago
I'm not convinced MJ was capable of that kind of abuse of children. It was certainly never proven. Yes, he had inappropriate behavior towards these kids (sleeping in the same bed), but I always believed he was a child himself. And let's face it, their parents put them in those situations over and over again. And then asked for money. I am not a defender of child abuse, but that always struck me as a pure money venture for those who accused him.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
I tend to agree.
ezpz
· 5 months ago
I agree too.
I think he was asexual and was identifying with those children as the child he was never allowed to be.
He was also a great humanitarian.
ShirleyGoodnessanMercy
· 5 months ago
I never cared much for MJ's music (except that I loved the "Black or White" video) so I never paid attention to any of his trials, etc. But my wonderful Costa Rican haircutter is sure he didnt do anything. I just have no idea, and try to keep an open mind about it. But I understand his father held him upside down by the ankles and used him as a punching bag. So knowing that, I am only overwhelmingly sad for poor Michael at having suffered such abuse - which I can hardly even imagine.
markf217
· 5 months ago
re: your "Costa Rican haircutter" Most stylists have much better psychotherapeutic skills than some PhDs. And they are folks who are very well-informed about what's going on in the world.
ShirleyGoodnessanMercy
· 5 months ago
She is wonderful and smarter than I am. I don't call her "wonderful" in a "Sammy Davis Jr" kind of way. She is someone whose opinion I respect. Though I can't say that about anyone else who works in the same hair salon.
markf217
· 5 months ago
I was being serious in my comments. Stylists have contact with a broad cross-section of the population. And about everyone confides in stylists.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
Can your Costa Rican haircutter give me any advice on what numbers to play on the Powerball?
jpjones
· 5 months ago
Yeah, he was acquitted. And we all know how perfectly infallible our justice system is. And the accuser's family was working class, so we know you can't believe a word THEY say. And the mother snapped her fingers at the jury, so even if her kid was molested, he definitely deserved it.
mtiffany
· 5 months ago
The real shame of it is that now Michael Jackson's dead, he can't help OJ find the real killer.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
Maybe the same person who planted the bloody glove at OJ's house also planted the Diprivan at Michael's.
markf217
· 5 months ago
... as part of a vast, right-wing conspiracy to bring down the man.
ramon
· 5 months ago
haha and they are both black so they must be related incidients haha
RainbowPhoenix
· 5 months ago
Michael Jackson wasn't black for a very long time.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
ROTFLMAO - AGAIN!!!
jpjones
· 5 months ago
The common link is star-stuck - and let's just say it, STUPID - juries who refuse to let common sense interfere with their need to worship their chosen idols.
Craig Hillman
· 5 months ago
He was never found guilty. His impact on us is far greater than most of us care to imagine. When you have compassion for others, you have the ability not to judge, especially those of us who never knew the private man. Think what you want, but unless you were there, you don't know jack about what's real and what's fiction. RIP Michael Jackson.
vkobaya
· 5 months ago
He was never found guilty.
OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ!
Both of them really were warped and twisted, became the destructive people they were because of our entertainment media. That is the real guilty party.
Revday
· 5 months ago
John, I know when you say "we continue to praise..." you mean the media continues to praise Jackson. I haven't done one single hosanna to the train-wreck of a life M. Jackson led.
I imagine that every abuse survivor in the country has had some renewal of night terrors and anxiety. While the media behaves like a sick family, hiding the truth with silence, doing a dog and pony show to cover the foul corners that Jackson's victims endured, and ramming the betrayal down viewers throats, many survivors have needed to throw up. Alot.
To those who continue to support the idea that Jackson was not hurting children, shutTFup. America's children are listening. Those who've had their childhood and their bodies ripped apart, survived the horror, lived on with haunted dreams and deep scars, do not need more of that betrayal.
Yes, betrayal. Betrayal is rife with excuses for the monster that this man was. IMPO Jackson was a classic pedophile. Just saying his name makes me want to wash my mouth out with soap.
For the survivors sakes, for mine, just simply say, "I believe you and we are glad he can't destroy anyone, ever again". Now that is something to celebrate.
Peace.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
I swore to myself I was done posting on this subject, but I just wanted you to know how moved I am by what you wrote, and that you have been heard. Thanks and best wishes.
Jack J.
· 5 months ago
Unless you were there, you haven't a clue as to whether Jackson was a pedophile or not. we all know that these "rumors" were driven by tabloid journalism.
He may have been gay, who knows but certainly he was beaten and beratted (per he and his siblings) by a brutal monster of a man, his father as a child. He was a damaged and troubled soul.
I took Michael Jackson at his word because there was no evidence that he was either a pedophile or molester.
It's easy to accuse someone who has great affection for children as a pedophile, hell, people do it all the time for financial gain or leverage to get what they want or just out of spite (ask the McMartins) and many innocent people get hurt and never recover from the accusations.
You here that so proudly proclaim Jackson as a pedophile are part of that sickining mob that made the man's life a nightmare. This is truly pathetic considering how so many of the public view gay men, like me and you here, of being perverts and child molestors too
To answer your question John, sadly, no, it isn't just you and that's the problem. shame on you, I thought even you were better than that. You should know better.
It's pathetic.
orogeny
· 5 months ago
He was an adult who liked to have small children, unrelated to him, spend the night, unsupervised, in his bed with him. What part of "sick, twisted individual" doesn't apply?
Talk about pathetic.
aratina
· 5 months ago
If Michael Jackson was a pedophile just because he camped out with kids as many other adults do, then Ghandi was a pedophile extraordinaire for sleeping naked next to underage girls.
What part of "not guilty on all counts" did you not understand? The speculation phase is over, he was not guilty.
Allie
· 5 months ago
Bet you think OJ was innocent too.
csnet
· 5 months ago
A blog that correctly condemed the President for creating false links between gay marriage, incest and pedophilia in its DOMA brief, has deceided to associate Jackson with pedophilia because you "suspect that he was in fact guilty of molesting children"?
Are you aware that most MSM reporting is made up, where sensationalism to sell the media always trumps truth?
This administration rationilizes its homophobia by false associations. What are your fears?
njprogressive
· 5 months ago
have to disagree with you on this one. he was never convicted, and from the looks of it, his accusers only seemed interested in money. from the outside looking in they saw an easy target. a very rich, conflicted, sexually confused man. and in this country people always believe the accuser in sexual crimes. just look at the duke lacrosse team.
PompanoGator
· 5 months ago
And OJ didn't kill Nicole; he wasn't convicted.
aratina
· 5 months ago
What evidence was thrown out of or withheld from the Jackson trial? Compare that to OJ's trial.
njprogressive
· 5 months ago
he was found guilty in civil court
robe
· 5 months ago
The interesting dynamic to me is that Jerry Lee Lewis' career was just about torpedoed when he married his 14 year old cousin, but the populace has been fine with Loretta Lynn getting married when she was 14, Elvis marrying a 15 year old and Michael Jackson's molestation allegations. That Lewis, Presley and Jackson also had drug and alcohol problems in the bargain further adds to the fact that when it comes to celebrities, people will remember what they want to.
I also find it interesting that James Brown has been given short shrift by the media (he had problems of his own) despite being more innovative and socially important a musical figure than Jackson, who idolized Brown.
Allie
· 5 months ago
Just for clarity, Elvis did not marry a 15 year old, Priscilla was born in 1945 and they were married in 1967.
orogeny
· 5 months ago
For the MJ defenders, one question; Other than a child molester, what kind of 40-year-old man invites 10-year-old boys over for private sleepovers...in the same bed?
cowboyneok
· 5 months ago
That whole Neverland Ranch just creeped me out, and when I heard about the "Jesus Juice" it was ALL OVER for me. I thought he was fantastic in the 80's but you couldn't have PAID me to go watch him in his "comeback tour." Janet Jackson? Hell yes! Michael? Uh, NO!
Jophus
· 5 months ago
Other than a celebrity who's bedroom do you invade and judge?
It's none of anyone's business, unless they were personally affected.
Phil
· 5 months ago
Hello children. Jackson was great pop entertainer. He was also one strange guy. This is entirely routine in showbiz. I don't know about the pedophile thing. I do know he didn't like the way he looked and ended up looking downright scary. He wanted kids but didn't want a wife or woman in his life. These are two things we know, and they are not normal behavior. He did raise millions for charity for his Heal the World foundation. If you want to celebrate his pop success go ahead. But don't make him out to some sort of saint, people who knew him a lot better than you, people like Quincy Jones, called him a troubled soul.
GuinnessCub
· 5 months ago
...additionally, where do you get the idea that most people believe he was a child molester?
leathersmith
· 5 months ago
$20 says the mormons will NOT be mis-appropriately his soul any time soon
RainbowPhoenix
· 5 months ago
I think you're giving them too much credit.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
This is probably the most pointless thing I've ever done in my life, but for those of you who think there is NO WAY Michael Jackson molested those slanderous little money-grubbing 13-year-olds (who would obviously rather be reviled by their friends than pass up the opportunity to tell the most humiliating lies about themselves to a courtroom full of complete strangers) PLEASE read the series of articles Maureen Orth wrote for Vanity Fair over the last 15 years and THEN tell me how innocent MJ's actions were.
likewise read the book The Michael Jackson Conspiracy by Aprodite Jones for the view of one reporter/author who was on tv saying Michael Jackson was guilty then after the trial did some research of her own and her opinion changed. And There was a GQ article about Michael Jackson's trail that had a similiar view point. So get both sides.
Kevin
· 5 months ago
likewise read the book The Michael Jackson Conspiracy by Aprodite Jones for the view of one reporter/author who was on tv saying Michael Jackson was guilty then after the trial did some research of her own and her opinion changed. And There was a GQ article about Michael Jackson's trail that had a similiar view point. So get both sides.
shell
· 5 months ago
No thanks! I like Maureen Orth as much as I did her husband, the late Timmi Russert. Anything to sell a book.
And they whine about Jackson? Face it -- both Russert and Orth were/are whores.
As for the 13-year-olds, WHAT ABOUT THEIR MOMMIES? Few mention them. WHY did they allow their children to go there for months on end? Why didn't prosecutors ever prosecute them? I am a mother and no matter WHAT anyone else did to my children, *I* am to blame if anything happened time after time with the same person. Any decent parent should see this.
And what about the prosecutors? There isn't enough violent crime in California to keep those spotlight-hogging imbeciles busy? Talk about pot meeting kettle! I keep hearing about Jackson's behavior at the beginning of the trial, when he jumped on the roof of the car. But not a peep was said about the prosecutors.
It's Amurca -- the land of the hicks and hayseeds. Flap your gums, and 1,000 bleach blonde teevee lawyers are hogging the spotlight to tell why THEY KNOW why he is guilty.
America is SO embarrassing!
jpjones
· 5 months ago
I'm sure you are a good parent, and that's the reason why your kids will likely never be the target of a pedophile. They are predators who deliberately choose the most vulnerable kids for their victims. Kids whose parents AREN'T well-educated, who are dazzled by celebrity and/or money, who just want ANYONE to free up their responsibilities for a while, who are flattered themselves by the "attention" they receive. And you can criticize the parents all you want, but what has that got to do with whether or not a crime was committed. Bad Mommie = no molestation? If the parents failed to protect their child, there is no sympathy for the victim?? Having read things you've written on other posts, I can't believe you really feel that way.
And this should be so obvious, but no one brings this up - if these articles are patently false, if every charge and insinuation is untrue, if Michael was completely innocent of one of the worst crimes a person can be accused of in our society, if Maureen Orth's FIVE articles written over a period of 11 YEARS got it all wrong - then why did he NEVER ONCE file a libel suit against A SINGLE ONE of these reports???
Allie
· 5 months ago
Most children who are the victim of child predators do not tell the first time. Look at any case reported in the news, almost all of them it was going on for some time before the kid finally told. Most of the times the children were told that their families would be harmed. You can sit and pronounce it would never, could never, happen in your family or to your kids. All those parents would have said the same thing until it happened to them.
And yes, bad decisions were made - parents were stupid to allow their children to be unsupervised with a grown man, especially one with a history of even suspected inappropriate behavior with children. That they should be held accountable for.
shell
· 5 months ago
Do you have children? Good parents KNOW when something is wrong. I have 3 children and trust me, all are different -- I have a quiet one, a hyper one and one that can't be labeled. I tell you -- I would know. Not exactly -- but that something was wrong.
A predator could say (to the child) that his family would be harmed if this happened. Wouldn't matter. Parents who pay attention would know. No, maybe not if anything happened ONE time, but if it had an effect on the child, the parent would know.
I think you are missing the point -- ALL these parents just wanted MONEY. Yes, all of them. And the prosecutors are little better than the parents. Instead of money, they wanted fame.
I really feel for the children -- whether they were molested or not, they didn't have even one parent who cared about them.
Joe B
· 5 months ago
Agreed.
I'll go further. Is the constant praising of his musical artistry and music some form of mass hallucination?
Go back and listen to Thriller and you have 2, 3 songs that stand out, but are they that much better than the music by artists of that time we forgot almost as soon as their hit fell from the charts? Off The Wall is a disco hit, and lots of fun to move to. But it came after that form of music was dead and discredited, a monster sales hit by a child star who was surrounded by the best musicians and producers in the world.
After those two he had what.... 3 albums with a handful of scattered hits for his fans, each one less popular. They were already using the world "comeback" for the first of many times when he released Dangerous. I'm an obsessive listener of pop music from every decade and I honestly didn't even know about Jackson's last 2 albums. They are irrelevant to anyone who is not a die hard Jackson fan.
His career was essentially an 80's phenomenon. He was a standout in the most shrill, meaningless decade in the history of music and one could argue were it not for the freak show that accompanied everything he did he would have been just another artist of that period as forgotten as Bel Biv Devoe or Rockwell.
I'm not totally down on him. Jackson's music is innovative here and there. But I can't play a note, and if I could hire Quincy Jones I would put out some innovative songs too. I listened to Thriller for a moment yesterday and was struck by how dated and thin sounding, like most early 80s music, the production was.
In many cases he did not write his songs. And from Off The Wall to the stuff he was preparing for his upcoming tour.... how much did he progress? To me, real artists, over 20 plus years, progress and transform dramatically.... Beatles, Stones, Dylan, Radiohead, Wilco, Stevie Wonder. I don't see Jackson as being anywhere near that class. I don't see him as someone who advanced music much. I see him as being in the hit maker tradition, and a visual/dance talent of great magnitude.
His legacy is about fame. Not music. And his fame is a freak event. There's nothing like it in music history and there never will be. There are a lot of reasons for it, and his music is not inconsequential to it. But I think we need to be honest and see him as 1 part music artist to many more parts pure spectacle.
The child molestation is a part of that, and a sordid, weird thing to be lumping into his legacy along with everything else.
Roman Polanski, accused of sex with a minor, is a great director. When he dies there is no way the tributes will be focused on his films. Every story will reference the "controversy". Jackson deserves even less. He's a repeat offender who bought his way out of trouble over and over again. I don't think artistry gets you a get out of jail free pass and even if it did.... do we really all believe Jackson's art was that great?
kugelschreiber
· 5 months ago
That's a lot of words dedicated to denying Michael Jackson's talent.
Joe B
· 5 months ago
Not nearly as many as people have spent exalting it.
nicho
· 5 months ago
You're not going to get anywhere with logic and reason as far as the MJ fans are concerned. They have divided their time between weeping and swooning since his untimely demise at his own hand.
Kevin
· 5 months ago
not all of us are weeping and swooning.
Kevin
· 5 months ago
How is someone a repeat offender when they werent convicted once? how is someone a repeat offender when the children, now adults who he was accused of molesting when they were brought as witnesses for the prosecution all said Michael did nothing to them?
And how did he buy himself justice...Didnt work for bernie did it? And I'm sure he defintely could have bought himself plenty. Not saying it doesn't happen but again...its statements like that that cant be proven or disproven. Not all who are convicted are guilty and not all who are declared not guilty are innocent. But we do know the family that accused him were money hungry and had changing stories of what allegedly happend. And read the article
yeah, you're right. The rest of the world is wrong.
Joe B
· 5 months ago
I didn't mean it in that way. I'm just saying, in my opinion, the substance of his music - the records specifically - is way overblown in the press because of his fame which is based on the stories, everything from child stardom to oxygen chambers to pet monkeys to child molestation to famous siblings to drug addiction.
I see seemingly everyone on earth rushing to talk about what a musical genius he was. I own a few of his CDs, because I have CDs by everybody. But for the most part, I don't know a single other adult who does.
My cousins did when they were teenagers. I probably knew a few people who bought them as young people when they came out, including me. But they long ago stopped listening to him, and the young people in my family barely know who he is. If you're old enough to have been there when he made those records, as I am, and you still listen to them....
Really? You really do listen to Michael Jackson as a serious artist? Because you think his records are brilliant? Or because it was a part of a period for you?
How about you, the America Blog audience in general? Did you guys rock out to Michael Jackson on a daily basis? When is the last time you went to a party and everyone was intently listening to Michael Jackson and marveling at how brilliant he is? Have you heard him played in a cutting edge club any time recently? Has any musician more substantial than Lady GaGa talked about learning from him? Are they teaching him music schools these days? The hits you love... did he actually write them?
I'm purely talking about the music, not the rest of the package. I'm not doubting his talent as dancer, performer, etc - after all he trained since he was a toddler to entertain us. Or the fame he achieved, which is probably greater than any one artist will ever know. I'm not doubting he is in a lot of record collections, after all I can read the charts as well as anybody else.
Are we going to say the same things about Madonna's musical genius when she passes? She recorded during the same period. Her fame was perhaps the closest thing comparable to his. Honestly, I would say she is a more progressive artist than Jackson, in that she tried more things, and was more in step with the breaking things in pop music. When she is gone, much will be said about her fame, but not so much about her music.
Just saying is it's my belief that some of the people who are now praising his records didn't put one of his CDs on for many years until the news that he had passed inspired them to. Right now there is a rush to commemorate the man, an intense interest in reading it, and writers are stepping up and perhaps remembering their own love for him with a bit of extra cheese in the emotion of the moment.
It's not a crime. The man just died. He's being memorialized tomorrow. Only a real dickhead would go out of his way to point out he isn't impressed. I'm just that kind of guy. :)
yawn
· 5 months ago
i for one want more michael jackson news, and i definitely think he's innocent.
AdamBlast
· 5 months ago
What I suspect--not that I know more than anyone--is much more complex than molestation, tho perhaps just as disturbing.
Fixation, yes, and fetish, but the sexual component was submerged enough that even *he* was in denial about it.
Children were toys for him, even his own kids. There's an awful sense of property and interchangeability in his relationship with young boys, starting with his serial-befriending-and-leaving of all the most popular child actors of every era.
It reminds me, in ways, of how his Dad always treated the kids as properties first. Michael did the same thing, but with the goal of showing *his* kids and kid surrogates how much he loved them.
That his fetish veered as close as it did to sexual molestation--plying boys with wine and porn in a few cases--is a testament to his basic disconnect and irresponsibility more than any pattern of targeted sexual desire.
He even believed his physical intimacy with them was innocent, if not wholly chaste. We know better. He *was* abusing them, just in a way as unique as everything else he did.
I'm not disturbed by his creating his own family, but I am with the way parental rights and biological help were bought and traded from a position of extreme financial power, so much people-buying. He paved the way for many of the worst abuses of celebrity.
That said, I don't think the media has been working overboard to lionize him *OR* tarnish his memory--they're milking every single angle to death, positive or negative.
Nylund
· 5 months ago
Maybe the praise is to compensate for a vague sense of guilt from knowing that if he was indeed a molester, the threat is now gone, and maybe his children stand a chance at having a semi-normal childhood.
mmedefarge
· 5 months ago
that is the real tragedy here. I am sure their lives have been pretty awful up until now, but what chance do they have at all? I don't see much that is healthy in any of the options, including the one where Debbie takes her two biological kids, thereby separating the sibs.
NealB
· 5 months ago
Are people actually mourning his death? My friends and I joked last weekend that we were "grieving" because he died, but we knew it was a joke.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
Are peole actually mouring his death? What, do you live in a cave?
cowboyneok
· 5 months ago
I'd rather the media concentrate on this today from a friend of mine:
"Just reported on CNN. Calling it a Gay Hate Crime for sure. Have someone in custody. Congressman from Calif irate that Commander did not tell him when he was visiting the base just hours after the incident. Making reference to the ridiculous Don't Ask, Don't Tell rule. Saying things have to change, the law has to chance and this could be the thing to bring things to a head. Sorry someone had to die to have this brought to light."
markf217
· 5 months ago
This weekend is the 10th anniversary of the murder of PFC Barry Winchell at Ft. Campbell, KY. DADT has an ugly legac.y
Kevin
· 5 months ago
Yeah the next time someone slams gays as a group for being all (pick your negative attribute). Please don't be upset about just remember you're doing the same thing here because you got no proof but believe it to be true...Think about it.
mmedefarge
· 5 months ago
Kevin: pedophiles, and serial killers, and most of the rest of the criminals in the world are usually straight men.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
um, yeah, that was not really the point there...
mmedefarge
· 5 months ago
I think I responded to Kevin's previous posting in the wrong place...
Kevin
· 5 months ago
um...what did i say to get my comment removed?
threadmonitor
· 5 months ago
We're not keen on being compared to gay haters.
Kevin
· 5 months ago
um..that wasn't the point of the comment..I don't believe anyone's a gay hater. I'm gay myself. The point was we're sticking fingers at MJ for being a kid toucher when that's the label that us as gays are being given. For the same reasons. They believe its true so its true and let the facts themselves be damned. If it came out the wrong way I do apologize. Because that's what i meant (the above, not that gay hate thing)
threadmonitor
· 5 months ago
It's always possible I misread your comment, Kevin. I'll restore it and see what others think.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
He had a good point. Many, if not most of the idiot red necks who live in this country believe what the gay haters say about gay people. That doesn't make it true. You should put his post back up IMO.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
not sure.
vkobaya
· 5 months ago
If we think this is bad, wait until Bush dies. Remember how the Republicans shut down the country for a week when Reagan died? For Bush's funeral, they will shut down the country for a year, decade, forever. Gak!
mmedefarge
· 5 months ago
my rethug brother is always railing about how the news media is controlled by "liberals". So if Bush gets a lot of coverage maybe I can finally convince him otherwise.
dannyinla
· 5 months ago
Yesterday Chuck Todd said one of the dumbest things I've ever heard. He pointed out how all three major news networks were showing the (over-produced-obviously-"leaked"-for-marketing-purposes) video of MJ's second-to-last rehearsal at the same time -- and suggested that we'd always remember where we were when we first saw that video. I threw up a little bit in my mouth at that moment.
Esurnir
· 5 months ago
He's been found not guilty on all charge by a jury that is probably about as friendly to child molesters as you and me.
It take so few to ruin a reputation and so much to repair it. Whatever he could do, he never could erase that stain even when cleared by justice.
Bruce
· 5 months ago
"cleared by justice."
oxymoron
Debbie A
· 5 months ago
Read Ishmael Reed's words on this. I guarantee that you know not much about the facts of any case against him + only mainstream media's coverage, extensive as it was. Read about the Da in LosAngeles that he pissed off.
Kat
· 5 months ago
I for one am not even doing any praising. In fact, of late, I've been frequently re-playing Culturcide's "Michael" on my IPod; I just wish that some radio station somewhere would have the guts to do likewise. The family act was shlock and his solo career began with the apex of corporate hype and slid downhill into absurdity the likes of which will (hopefully) never be experienced again - and that was before the molestation began (or at least before it was discovered). Yes, MTV had a serious color imbalance in 1983, but Prince would have been a much more legitimate solution to the imbalance.
cufford
· 5 months ago
Wow...what a self-contradictory and nonsensical post.
He obviously was a great entertainer, and he was obviously acquitted of all molestation charges.
Regardless, if YOU feel he's a child molester, then don't give him space on your blog, though you're doing just that.
Huh?
ChrisS
· 5 months ago
Great entertainer. Not great person. The two are not incompatible. But I take your point. Mel Gibson is cute and a good actor, but I haven't seen one of his movies since he proved to be such a douche. I could take refuge in the fact that Mel Gibson is incontrovertibly a homophobic anti-Semitic bigot while Michael Jackson is an alleged child molester. But that's dumb because I agree with you -- who doesn't think he actual was a child molester or, at the very least, very, very creepy? Thankfully (sheesh) the media are on wall-to-wall non-stop Michael Jackson coverage (ala "Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead) so I'll have lots of opportunities to figure it out. Preferably over a martini or two or three.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
Well, number one because he's the greatest entertainer in the history of mankind. Nobody else even comes close, not Elvis, not Sinatra, not James Brown, not Beethoven, not Paul McCartney, not anybody. MJ was the total package. Check these two out..
Number two, the dude was worldwide huge at 11 years old being the front "man" for the Jackson 5. Since way before that he was not allowed a childhood. His childhood, indeed his whole life was given up, if you will for others, including the bajillions of fans who recognize the impact, the contribution, the unmatched talent that was MJ. For a generation, Michael Jackson was a soundtrack for their youth.
So yes, of course the dude had serious issues, developmental and others. Just look at his face. He was coocoo crazy on many levels. But unfortunately for people with such astounding success and talent obvious at such a young age and the way he was brought to the fore, all the fame, insanity and a tragic end are the only possible conclusions. People like Michael Jackson just don't get old.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
Yeah, Beethoven's Ninth can't begin to compete with "The Girl is Mine."
nicho
· 5 months ago
MJ will be number one after Beethoven has been forgotten for 100 years -- but not before then.
Bubbles
· 5 months ago
Prediction: MJ will be largely forgotten 100 years from now. Beethoven has been dead for nearly 200 and even you know about him.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
I don't know much about Beethoven. Did he own slaves?
Bubbles
· 5 months ago
He didn't own slaves.
What's more, I am quite sure he didn't grab his pelvis in public while presuming to dance.
Bubbles
· 5 months ago
?
He was a composer around 1800 living in what was the Holy Roman Empire until Napolean conquered it. .
jpjones
· 5 months ago
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME????
jpjones
· 5 months ago
DO YOU OWN A BRAIN???
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
you just don't get it. Maybe Beethoven was a better song writer. Maybe Usher is a better dancer (or by your post I suspect you would want Fred Astaire in there), maybe there are 100 better singers, but MJ was the total package and as far as entertainment goes, the man was a star brighter than any that came before or will come after. I saw him once. He changed the air around him.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
Yes, hopper i, after reading one post you have me all figured out. I am a raging racist Fred Astair-loving bigot and way too stupid to "get it" - whatever "it" is. Who's this "Usher" anyway, and if he's such a good dancer, why isn't he performing instead of just seating people at the theater?
Anyway, Beethoven did write some nice songs. I hope that doesn't make me a Nazi, too.
ShirleyGoodnessanMercy
· 5 months ago
Beethoven's music will live forever. MJ's will surely be forgotten forever in less than 50 years.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
Actually, I didn't think you were a racist or a Nazi, although now I think it strange you went there. I thought you were just old. And if you've never heard of Usher, well, now I know you're old.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
And you discerned my age ... how?? My guess is that your clairvoyance or intuition or whatever other gift you're relying on to figure me out is no better than your ability to recognize sarcasm.
Bruce
· 5 months ago
"I saw him once. He changed the air around him."
So did Jim Jones, Henry Ford, Wagner, Hitler, John Wayne Gacy...
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
My lord. Get yourself a list of logical fallacies. In fact, here I have one for you:
I don't know how you did it such a short post but you just made about half a dozen of them.
markf217
· 5 months ago
I always thought he was singing, "The Girl is Blind." But you are correct. That sing was more culturally significant than Beethoven, Mozart, even Lawrence Welk.
nicho
· 5 months ago
Perfect assessment - in a world where taking in money is equated with being worthwhile.
vkobaya
· 5 months ago
Nobody else even comes close, not Elvis, not Sinatra, not James Brown, not Beethoven, not Paul McCartney, not anybody.
Crap! Jackson was a media creation. If those you mentioned lived in the current age, the media would have created similar media sensations of these stars. Jackson was warped and destroyed by the media. I don't think his behavior was appropriate but the entertainment media had a billion dollar investment in him and was not about to let him be convicted. They chewed up and spit out more child stars than we can count, destroyed them. I blame the entertainment industry for what Jackson was.
Bubbles
· 5 months ago
He was just a song and dance man. You put a song and dance man before, Beethoven, Elvis, the Beatles?
He didn't even play an instrument (in public).
Some of the J5 songs were hip. Post Jackson? Just mediocre stuff. Nothing as profound or moving as "accross the universe, yesterday, hey jude, imagine, instant kharma, here comes the sun, all you need as love, I am the walrus, day in the life, etc... I could go on.
In fact, Jackson couldn't even hold a candle to Billy Joel - more his contemporary - a real musical talent.
I know, I know, it's all in the eye of the beholder.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
Yes, you could go on and on, but it's getting on time for the early bird special.
Bubbles
· 5 months ago
Okay, I get it. Your not serious. Your satirical/parody thing.
Very funny. MJ trumps Beethoven. That's a good one.
Webster
· 5 months ago
In any case, it strikes me as somewhat of a morbid orgy of coverage by the M$M. They are using it as an excuse (and there's always some excuse, isn't there?) to not deal with any of the serious issues that are plaguing the nation right now.
I don't think much of the CorporateM$M in the first place, and this way-over-the-top "Michael Jackson is a minor god" stuff--every day, over and over, makes me a little sick to my stomach.
libertydan
· 5 months ago
I would praise the music not the person
Russ Williams
· 5 months ago
I don't have enough information to know if he molested children. I do know that he was a bizarre eccentric rich person, and therefore more likely to be the target of malicious or greedy rumors. Perhaps the rumors were true; I don't know and ultimately don't really care. One can praise someone's musical talent without defending bad stuff he might or might not have done.
And in general, when someone dies, people try to praise the good stuff about them instead of harping on the bad stuff. Everyone's done something bad, anyway.
jeffg166
· 5 months ago
He was a great talent and strange dude.
Dying at 50 will install him in the pop icon pantheon of demigods. He'd like that.
tlsintx
· 5 months ago
that's an amazingly hard question-
RobertSanDimas
· 5 months ago
Tragic as his death is, it has turned normally rational people, even some close to me, into unrecognizable caricatures of SOMEone bizarre. His talent was undeniable. However, I'm looking forward to this being over and everyone getting on with life. BTW: Did anyone else have to turn off the Larry King interview with Jermaine at Neverland? It was excruciating.
mmedefarge
· 5 months ago
The news media are to blame for giving this story so much attention. I am seriously thinking of getting rid of my television. He was a tortured soul, that much I think we all can agree on. I don't doubt for a minute that he was a pedophile and that he carefully selected the children he victimized, from families that were too distracted or impaired to keep their children safe. The jury finding Jackson not guilty could have had a lot to do with not giving much credence to these unappealing parents.
Valentinefrey
· 5 months ago
Do it. Internet addiction is so much more fulfilling.
Butch1
· 5 months ago
A molester and a drug addict. Yes, he did a lot for pop music and was a great entertainer but, he should not be made a saint. Mother Theresa would have slapped him. I think the media is really overdoing this coverage. It has become vulgar. Why not have a respectful requiem and internment like Farrah Fossett had. That was the way to do it, in my opinion. I hope they don't make a big deal and parade MJ's body all around the streets or some huge caravan with a funeral procession. He isn't Princess Di, for goodness sake.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
I guess you would expect Mke Tyson not to be violent outside the ring? Or are you not a boxing fan either...
Butch1
· 5 months ago
I do not see the connection with your response to what I have said. ( actually, I enjoy boxing and Mike Tyson should never be violent outside of the ring, those hands and his teeth are lethal weapons, just ask Evander Holyfield, regarding the biting. )
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
"He isn't Princess Di, for goodness sake."
was that joke?
Butch1
· 5 months ago
No, it wasn't a joke. I don't think he needs to be elevated to royalty and fawned over in death when he had become an has been and was trying to make a come back. To canonize him is vulgar in my opinion. Give him a respectable burial and keep the money making vultures away from this event that should be respectful and not a circus.
markf217
· 5 months ago
One can always try to find something nice to say about people. Hitler was a genocidal, racist maniac, but he did help revive the German economy in the late 1930s. And from what I've seen in news reel footage, he was very nice to German Shepherd puppies and blond-haired children. I don't think Michael ever should be buried. They should prop him up in a glass case like Lenin or Mao. They could create an expensive shrine for his body on the National Mall in D.C. Michael's death is uniting all of humanity, will help defeat terrorism, will bring about the end of world hunger, cure all diseases, will lift the world out of the global recession, and usher in a new era of international peace and understanding, and will help astronauts reach Mars. Michael is truly a messianic figure.
Butch1
· 5 months ago
;-) My goodness, I guess MJ really is a saint. (snark)
manfred
· 5 months ago
Richard Wagner was a horrible man - a virulent anti-Semite, a bounder, financially shady his whole life, etc. - yet he was one of the greatest composers and musical visionaries of all time. His musical gifts have kept him firmly in the pantheon regardless of his personal failings...
Bubbles
· 5 months ago
In my view, Jackson probably was a vice driven as Wagner, without the other talents. He wasn't a musician. He was just a song and dance man. That's it. And his songs weren't all that good anyway.
HelenRainier
· 5 months ago
Not only was he guilty of molesting children, but he was also obtaining prescription drugs illegally. He was a talented entertainer, granted, but he was not the demigod that many are making him out to be.
Ramon
· 5 months ago
Well, no, he was not "guilty" . . .he was found NOT guilty, if I recall correctly?
HelenRainier
· 5 months ago
That's your take, not mine. I also believe that OJ was guilty of murdering his wife and Ron Goldman even though a jury decided he was not guilty. I also acknowledge that the LAPD screwed up their handling of the investigation.
I also believe that George Bush was guilty of war crimes and subverting the Constitution. Can I prove it? No, legally I can't, but the overwhelming evidence indicates that the three people I mentioned specifically were guilty of what they were accused of.
Bruce
· 5 months ago
So was OJ. What's your point, that the legal system is an accurate arbiter of the truth? Get your head out of your ass.
ramon
· 5 months ago
All these bigots who think that OJ = Michael Jackson what a disgrace.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
It's not bigotry because it has nothing to do with race. They are two wealthy celebrities who got away with crimes that would have gotten most of us locked away for decades, if not the rest of our lives. They both happened to be African-Americans - I can't help THAT. And I won't patronize the African-American community (the vast majority of whom I'm sure are NOT criminals) by holding black criminals to a lower standard than whites.
Allie
· 5 months ago
Don't forget, Robert Blake, a white man, basically got away with murder like OJ. Same thing - criminal acquittal, civil judgment.
HelenRainier
· 5 months ago
Thanks for bringing up Blake. Excellent example. That is another good example. He was found "not guilty" but I still believe he had something to do with it.
I think Phil Spector might beg to differ with you ;)
Personally, I think it has more to do with who the victim was. IE Nicole Simpson and Bonnie Bakely were married to/related to the perpetrator. The woman Spector was convicted of killing he was not related to.
Think of the cases in your own area. Are there are different outcomes if the person killed their spouse/lover vs killing a stranger - if the evidence all is similar in strength? All those years where it was impossible legally for a spouse to rape their spouse. The long road to domestic violence laws to take hold.
There also appears to be a lower penalty if you abuse/kill your own child, than if you pick up and kill a child off the street. Like - it's ok for you to grow your own victim.
Very interesting stuff from a sociological point of view.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
I think you raise several good points - although I don't think Phil Spector counts as a "celebrity" with the general public. Most people don't know a record producer - no matter how significant - from a dog catcher, and you can only get away with that hair if the public knows and loves you BEFORE you're sitting at the defense table.
vkobaya
· 5 months ago
Okay! What about MJ = Rush Limbaugh?
HelenRainier
· 5 months ago
It has NOTHING to DO with being "bigoted" as you so conveniently put it.
If both OJ and MJ had been purple, pink, green, blue, or white, I would have come to the same conclusion.
For example, your name could be Ahmad, Yitzak, Fauntelroy, or Juan. It doesn't make a damned difference to me. You could be lesbian, gay, bi, trans, or hetereo, it doesn't make a damned difference to me.
Get that "bigot" label out of your mind, Ramon. I don't appreciate it and nothing could be further from the truth.
HelenRainier
· 5 months ago
The law distinguishes between burdens of proof in both criminal and civil cases.
Likewise, there is a difference between "not guilty" and "innocent."
The US Code also distinguished between "lying under oath" and commiting "perjury."
In criminal law the jury has to find "beyond a reasonable doubt" that a person is guilty. If just one juror has a doubt that can deter a "guilty" finding.
Likewise, the burden of proof in a civil law suit differs from the burden of proof in a criminal case.
nemodog
· 5 months ago
Last I checked, he was not found guilty of molesting children, and he was never charged with prescription shopping. The presumption of innocence shields us all. Well, that's the idea anyway. Lord help us all if we can be tried and convicted by popular vote of blog commentary. The press is going to ridiculous lengths to 'make news' out of a somewhat newsworthy event. It's time to move on, people. Worry about the living, pay tribute to the dead.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
You're right, he wasn't charged with prescription shopping. All the cops did was haul two big sacks filled with drugs out of his house.
And Dick Cheney has never been charged with war crimes.
mmedefarge
· 5 months ago
jpjones, you rock!
jpjones
· 5 months ago
And you have a FANTASTIC handle, Mme Defarge!
mmedefarge
· 5 months ago
Merci!
Allie
· 5 months ago
Hard to charge a dead man, just like the excess drugs that Anna Nicole was taking wasn't discovered until after her death.
HelenRainier
· 5 months ago
I will not address these issues again. Follow the thread for my further posts regarding my position on this. You can agree or not agree.
It's no sweat off by my butt. He was found not guilty. Not guilty is NOT the same as innocent. Research the law. There are different burdens of proof in criminal law vs civil law.
Rita Miller
· 5 months ago
I certainly agree. Too much todo about someone who doesn't make a good impression on a lot of people. Others who have contributed far more have not been given news coverage that should be reserved for presidents or heads of countries only. I for one am sick of seeing nothing but Michael Jackson everytime you turn on the news or pick up a newspaper. The media could be covering far more worthy topics. Nat King Cole was a far more dignified and a contributing entertainer than Jackson, and how about "Satchmo" Armstrong? Jackson couldn't hold a candle to them. All he wanted to do was grab his crotch.
bluebear
· 5 months ago
Go back and listen to "Heal the World" and then tell us that all Jackson wanted to do was "grab his crotch". Cripes, be sick of the coverage but talk about dismissing talent that just wasn't your cup of tea.
Bubbles
· 5 months ago
"many of us (most of us?) suspect that he was in fact guilty of molesting children? Shouldn't the latter outweigh the former?"
Only if it is proven as fact - which I don't think it has (though I confess I really wouldn't know since I'm not up on anything related to him). I suspect the same, but I don't really know.
Except for a few early J5 songs, I never really cared much for Jackson's music. I don't get what people see in it or him.
So to answer your question I would say, no.
But still I'm sick of hearing about him. After this week (or month), he'll hopefully move off the front page for good.
He is spoiling all the good news shows I used to watch.
shell
· 5 months ago
Well, if you watched MSNBC, they are off today anyway -- holiday you know. I looked at the teevee guide, and the non-stop Michael coverage took off some reruns (times 100) of Lockup. I am SO OLD, I remember when Crossfire was even live okn Christmas day.
The media is a joke now.
RainbowPhoenix
· 5 months ago
All we know for sure is that the things he was proven to have done were extremely innapropriate, and disturbingly indicative of a larger pattern. It's not just the accusations of child molestation either. The various nonsexual things he did with his sons were extremely unnerving to say the least.
Name
· 5 months ago
Ted Rall has a cartoon up about it. Sums it up for me.
I don't know whether he did or not. I tend to think that he was just completely socially inept, and surrounded by people who didn't have the balls to say "Hey...this is not how regular adults act around children". Perhaps he was a pedophile...I don't know. They found him "not guilty" on both counts...but then again they found OJ not guilty of murdering his ex. So, speculate how you want.
I will always remember when MTV was in its infancy, and he came out with "Billie Jean" and "Thriller". WOW...it truly WAS a phenomenon, and changed the game thereafter. So, I give him props for his creativity and talent which he richly deserves, but his strangeness will always cloud that part of him that was truly amazing.
Spunky_Jitters
· 5 months ago
Sick of all the coverage? It's going to get worse. Get rid of your TV! There hasn't been anything worth watching on TV for years. It sucks the motivation out of you and makes you feel like you know something when you don't. Not to mention a commercial in your face every 5 minutes. TV is as obsolete as 8 track tape. Ignore it.
hopper_i
· 5 months ago
how do you know? since I assume you don't have a TV and all...
NealB
· 5 months ago
TV really has gotten to be completely crap. I wish we could cancel our satellite (my partner wants it so we've got it); I'd like to see whether I missed any of the few things I still occasionally watch. It gets to be a habit; a bad habit. This would be a good summer to give it up, you're right.
gaydem
· 5 months ago
Thank you! I'm really put out by the ongoing seemingly worshipful coverage on networks such as MSNBC and CNN.
Yes, Michael Jackson occupied a vaunted, possibly unmatched position in the pop music world for several years in the 1980's. The Michael Jackson of "The Jackson 5" days hardly merits discussion, IMO.
If one wants to equate "greatness" by the number of downloads or albums sold, then you certainly may.
However, I'll choose to remain somewhat of a snob (being a classically trained musician) and judge greatness in a different way.
When it comes to dancers, I'll gladly lift up Judith Jamison in her heyday as one of the most gifted and "great" dancers of recent times. There is little to compare with her marvelous line and smoking passion.
When it comes to singers, I'll surely lift up voices like Carmen McRae, Sarah Vaughan, Nat King Cole as being truly "great" voices who needed no producing nor relied on effects to evidence their unique talents.
kittycatastrophe
· 5 months ago
While I consider Michael Jackson a pop music genius whose career will never be rivaled in that genre I have been indifferent at best to his passing. I was questioning some of his antics long before the pedophilia allegations came up, and I used to be a fan of his. I had no interest in attending any of his farewell concerts and found it hypocritical that some of the same folks who had agreed with the allegations were lining up to get tickets, these same people are backbiting each other to get seats at the Staple Center on Tuesday. I won't be watching that sideshow either because as talented as he was, and despite the great a musical legacy that he has left behind it does not negate in my mind that the fact that dude was suspect as hell when it came to young boys.
terrya
· 5 months ago
In MSNBC's constant coverage of Jackson's death, they've completely glossed over the molestation charges and that aspect of his life. MSNBC has virtually deified him.
okojo
· 5 months ago
I think people are praising the artist and his art, not the person. Much like I love Modigliani's works, but I separate the cocaine snorting and beating up his girlfriends. (John Lennon also abused both his wives)
Richard Wagner's music and his musical style are still a huge influence on music today. Wagner's idea of leitmotif, is pretty much copied in every movie soundtrack.
However, Wagner the person, was a well known anti Semite, was constantly broke, and had a child out of wedlock.
Kevin
· 5 months ago
I do agree there's been media over kill with Michael's death as it is was with Princess Diana's death. When you're that much of an Icon they're gonna over kill it. What I'm sickened with is the hyporcisy of it. Because a lot of these people now praising him raked him on the coals when the molestation charges came up. Even the newspapers...I remember the "sweat Freak" from the ny post when the jury was deliberating...and now they want to give special tribute issues...give me a freaking break. I'm just surprised Pespi Co hasn't come out with a special Michael Bottle after they abandoned him because of the first charge. After all a company has to keep its image...but will rely on the short memory of people when it wants to market stuff to make a profit.
facebook-1735222489
· 5 months ago
Unless a person was a true ogre in life (Hitler, Stalin, etc.), the time immediately after death tends to be a time of positive reflection on the person's legacy. Jackson made an immeasurable contribution to music and popular culture, but his peak period had passed some time ago as things do in popular culture. Elvis was no longer front-page material at the time of his death, nor was Michael Jackson. But one's death brings time to reflect on one's life. There will certainly be tell-all books all too soon that will reveal the dark side, so to speak, but, for now, that's not what most people want to hear about.
Allie
· 5 months ago
Hmm, a child molester is not a 'true ogre'. Interesting thought. Sickening, but interesting.
nicho
· 5 months ago
Immeasurable contribution to music? A couple of cheesy and repetitive disco hits? Hardly.
To the popular culture -- definitely -- but that's not a good thing necessarily. Beavis and Butthead made a contribution to popular culture.
elRey
· 5 months ago
Mr. Jackson was a conflicted individual. Maybe/probably he was a child molester, but we don't know that for sure. He clearly had deep psychological problems that will be debated forever.
But without any doubt, he was a pop music genius. His contribution and his talent cannot be minimized. I grew up with him from the Jackson 5; I was in high school when I saw the Mowtown 25 anniversary show where he was positively ELECTRIFYING in his performance of "Billy Jean" A performance I will never forget.
There are plenty of great artists that were a complete mess in their personal lives, with psychological problems/ drug and alcohol problems, etc. but I think they all deserve to be remembered for their contributions to the world more than their personal demons. Its sad that MJ's problems were so public, but I hope in the coming years he is remembered for his creative work more than his questionable personal life.
nicho
· 5 months ago
Meanwhile -- in the real world -- news is breaking that Sarah Palin is resigning as governor of Alaska.
We won't have Sarah to kick around any more.
(Although I'm guessing we will.)
AndrewIN
· 5 months ago
Did anyone get to hear about the note tha was auctioned off yesterday, handwritten the "The Gloved One" to Greg, someone he met on a Pan-Am flight? It goes as follows:
"Greg thanks for a magic moment in my life, I hope it was the same for you, please come to visit me at Neverland. Lets hope this is the beginning of a long friendship and never lose your boyish spirit its imortal. Love always M. Jackson."
Creepy. He was a great entertainer, but the last 15 years of his life were very disturbing and have to weigh in somehow to how we evaluate the man's life.
bluebear
· 5 months ago
PanAm went out of business in 1991, so how do you explain this "note" from the "last 15 years of his life"?
Rob Mule
· 5 months ago
MJ's global celebrity and pop stardom cannot be denied...He inspired a fan following that appears will strengthen over time ala Elvis and lived a life that will breathe existence into hundreds of books, movies, documentaries, cover albums, imitators and pricy collectible kitsch...He also had a raft of problems stemming from his being abused into a life as an entertainment commodity...It's a classic American mass communications star tragedy like Judy, Marilyn, blah, blah, blah. It is sad...Aztecs cut the hearts out of the prettiest virgins while we do it more slowly thru fame and without the sexual strictures.
RonNYC
· 5 months ago
I don't get why black people seem to love him so much. He obviously hated being black intensely. Just weird.
Kevin
· 5 months ago
uh..where did he hate being black ?
the nose job? uh..do people who get nose jobs hate their racial identies or just want to look "better" for themselves?
the hair thing? well as far as i know black women and some men change the way their natural hair color is to something "straight" but we can point that to other racial groups as well. do those men and women hate their race or themselves because its not the way nature/God made them?
the skin thing...oh i thought michael explained the virtiligo (sic) but i guess people still dont want to believe that even though he finally said what was happening to him but the innudedo of him lightening and bleaching his skin still stays.
RonNYC
· 5 months ago
You can believe what you want. He had multiple plastic surgeries to eliminate the black features; wore a straight hair wig; lightened his skin (unless you want to believe that ridiculous story). He was clearly very white identified.
SoLeftImRight
· 5 months ago
I think that's a little simplistic, only because everything about MJ was very complicated (including his (mis-)treatment of children). Try reading this for a black view on the matter:
I read the article and I still don't understand how black Americans can feel any kinship with him, even though he might have adopted black "moves" or music even after he turned white. Granted I haven't read all that much about him post mortem, but I haven't seen this topic discussed. It's as if he were born a Jew, turned Christian, became a Baptist minister, died and Jews mourned the loss of a great Jewish leader. Also, I don't buy that "complicated" stuff. His life was no more complicated than any one else's except most people aren't hiding their attraction to young boys and most people aren't deeply into drug use and self-hatred.
kevin
· 5 months ago
so does this mean women who puff up their lips with collegen want to be black and let's not talk about tanning...cause that's really a "light" skin tone.
RonNYC
· 5 months ago
It might. If white women (and white men) want to look black, that's OK with me, if someone cares what I think about it. Perhaps they do. Whatever their reasons, it is obvious that Jackson lightened his skin and aggressively sought to make his bone structure and features white, including his straight black hair. I always thought that was freakish, but someone on the TV opined that perhaps he was trying to avoid looking like his father. What I find even more freakish and weird is his being embraced by so many black people as some sort of black icon. He was a lot, but not that.
Nick_Upstate
· 5 months ago
John raises a good point and, as is often the case, arouses a lot of feelings and discussion. No one has mentioned the children of Michael Jackson. A couple of interesting links:
Jackson certainly was a phenom and a legend in his own time (or mind as they say in the wrestling world). The facts of his personal life indicated that he liked to sleep with young boys and that is the way many will remember him. That he was obviously a drug addict and a terrible role model, in that respect, is not to be disputed. Much of this has come out since his death. For many, these things will not matter and he will remain an icon.
preston2190
· 5 months ago
lol, I just found some guy on eBay selling soil from the spot where Michael died...this is too good!
Since Michael's childhood was robbed by his greedy father, Michael robbed other kids' childhoods. Very sad.
offspring
· 5 months ago
you know the nazi party elevated germany which was on the brink to a world powers, so what we suspect they might have done shouldnt outwiegh what they acomplished, or hey when the klan's membership was at its highest it helped it members find jobs and secure the nieghborhoods for its people, so what they acomplished should outwiegh what we might think they did. Ok are these statements crazy? Hell yes, the point just because the little freakin child raping bastard wasnt put in prison in no way means he wasn't guilty, many have done things and gotten off, so anything he did good, was destroyed when he started sleeping in beds with kids.
offspring
· 5 months ago
Ps. I think people who have been molested, or have people in their family that where molested have a different outlook towards the great hero that is jackson, so before everyone jumps on those that point out what they see as obvious think about the fact that many in america especially the talented have done some amazingly horrible things in history. So you praise the man for his talents, me I hope he is burning in hell.
kevin
· 5 months ago
pps ive been molested and dont agree.
LynnDee
· 5 months ago
I'm not conflicted at all. I want Michael Jackson coverage off the air, and I'm hoping the Palin resignation does just that.
Jophus
· 5 months ago
I just said the same thing. Why this is an issue at all beyond the statement: 'Michael Jackson died today', fucking baffles me. He didn't just apply to babysit your kids, you know?
Jophus
· 5 months ago
I didn't know this guy so I don't give a shit. If you feel conflicted in any way you need to re-examine your priorities.
Donica
· 5 months ago
No, it's not just you. The media has been falling all over itself praising this man. Granted, many have mentioned, in passing of course, the molestation accusations, but no one has called Jackson to the carpet for his behavior.
bluebear
· 5 months ago
Is being dead enough of a carpet for you, or would you like us to burn him in effigy for you?
Tamyrlin
· 5 months ago
As if "calling out" Michael Jackson has any relevance now now that he's dead and can't hear it.
OK, hopper_i, here goes: For the record, I really do love some of MJ's music - and I don't need a lecture from you or a 25-year-old video to remind me how much I liked him back in the day. Despite your assumption that I must be 80 years old because I dare to say that some artists, like, um, I don't know, FUCKING BEETHOVEN maybe, were greater talents, I actually grew up with Michael. I was in high school when "Thriller" came out, and like just about everyone who was alive at the time, I just about wore out my copy of the album (though I ALWAYS skipped "The Girl Is Mine" - how could you NOT??).
But to take balanced appraisal of his life, it is IMPOSSIBLE to overlook all the freaky/gross stuff. Was he a sad, damaged human being? My God, of course. His own description of his father declares that the man was a monster. And what could be sadder than a person with so much self-loathing that they erase themselves and create a caricature of the Ideal American Image, i.e. a white person, complete with a dainty nose, cleft chin, and ruby lips? And please, no more vitiligo excuses. Could he not have had the pale patches of his skin treated to match his natural pigment, rather than the reverse?
If you want to post videos, post his original performance of "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough". THERE is a natural, nice-looking man, performing with JOY and FEELING, not the technically flawless but hard and cold performances of the "Thriller" videos. "Off The Wall" was a celebration of artistic freedom and release - after that, he became Michael The Commercial Commodity, and then Michael The Pop Culture Sideshow.
And then he became Michael The Person No Sane Parent Would Leave Their Little Boy With. And even THAT Michael is someone I have some sympathy for. A common trait of pedophiles is that they are developmentally arrested, drawn to children because they are incapable of functioning sexually as adults. And it makes perfect sense - he was denied a normal childhood, and so used his adult freedom to try to experience the one thing in life which his money and fame couldn't buy. That does NOT excuse his victimization of these boys, but there is no denying that the man never had a fair chance at anything close to a normal life. It's all incredibly sad - for him AND for his victims.
And they ARE victims. And because that fact is something which is being deliberately swept under the carpet in the wake of his death, this entire post has made my blood boil. No honest assessment of his life can deny his talent and contribution to pop culture, although I don't believe he ranks with the greatest artists of the ages (and it may shock you to know that I am NOT a contemporary of Beethoven's, and that I actually liked him in my teens - I encourage you to get to know the classics, you may be stunned to discover that they still have something relevant to say to us in the present). But likewise, no honest assessment can deny the unpleasant aspects of his life. It's THERE, and we as a society ignore the baser instincts of human nature to the detriment of us all.
threadmonitor
· 5 months ago
Enuf with the "haters" crap, hopper_i.
saml
· 5 months ago
m.j. was conflicted because he was gay. his repressive family and his church are responsible for his actions.
Jophus
· 5 months ago
How do you know he was conflicted at all? Responsible for what actions? I believe he was found not guilty.
Joe B
· 5 months ago
I'm looking at the man in the mirror. I'm asking him to change his ways.
zorbear
· 5 months ago
"Shouldn't the latter outweigh the former?"
Why? Obama continues to stand behind his statements that gay=worthy citizen, while legally gay=pedophile.
Why should the public at large be any better than his majesty?
saml
· 5 months ago
orogeny, you are molesting my brain with your stupid statement.
JoeCHI
· 5 months ago
Agreed!
The world is rid of a dangerous pedophile. Let's move on!
vkobaya
· 5 months ago
Jackson's estate is estimated to be worth a couple billion. His pockets are huge, easily capricious enough for a dozen judges, prosecutors and any jury you can find. I doubt even millionaires are convicted of child molestation and pedophilia.
sheilerama
· 5 months ago
I spent a whole work day goofing off by reading Maureen Orth's MJ articles in Vanity Fair. I am disgusted with celebrity now in a huge way as a result. Why are Michael Jackson's children allowed to stay with one of the people responsible for making Michael the way he was?
Uh, speak for yourself. I never praised Michael Jackson in life, haven't done so in death, and don't intend to do so. IMHO, he was a freak, and I hope he finds peace wherever he may be now.
jpjones
· 5 months ago
I have been an openly gay, non-sexually confused man for 25 years, and I have NEVER been accused of pedophilia. And if I WERE, I would fight it in court to my dying breath, NOT offer a $20 million settlement to a "false" accuser. And if a reporter wrote a story (or several) suggesting that I was, and a magazine or newspaper published it (many times over) I would sue them for libel and work with all the resources at my disposal to force them to retract such a story.
But that's just me, I guess.
aratina
· 5 months ago
Sure you would. After all, the outcome of being found guilty, no matter how unlikely, is not all that bad in a criminal court, right?
Look, if you have millions to spend on frivolous things, then spending $20 million on a civil settlement to avoid even a very small risk of being found guilty surely seems worth it. Plus you keep your private affairs private, including things like photos of your dick being shown on the nightly news.
On the other hand, what kind of victim would accept $20 million rather than a conviction? Think about it.
gemischt
· 5 months ago
I just cannot believe that anyone, who has any common sense, would not know that from the age of say 13 to 50 (most boys seem to mature sexually at 13), Michael Jackson, the pedophile, would have had some sort of sexual encounter with at least 100's to thousands of young boys. Don't you think that at least one loving, honest parent would have tried either to harm Mr. Jackson physically, not ask for money, or see to it that he got life in prison or even castrated? Maybe now some Parent who has a video or recording of the molestation will show it to the world since Mr. Jackson is dead and they have nothing to fear.
orogeny
· 5 months ago
Jackson admitted to an 8-figure settlement with one of the kid's parents...how many more do you think he paid off? Contracts amd non-disclosure agreements, combined with large sums of money and parents who would be revealed to have pimped out their kids to Jackson in return for money and celebrity is a pretty good recipe for silence.
I don't think Jackson was the kind of pedophile that just picked up kids off the street. IMO, he found money-hungry parents who were willing to sell their kids and set things up so they could never tell.
gemischt
· 5 months ago
Please tell me where I can see the tape, transcript of Michael Jackson admitting to molesting anyone. Are you saying that a non-disclosure agreement of any kind trumps a Prosecutor's right to start a grand jury to look into any alleged criminal activity? Don't you remember Kenneth Starr going all over Arkansas, looking for women who had any sexual encounters, any payoffs, any rapes or anything to do with sex against Bill Clinton? If you have any proof of any more payoffs, why don't you bring them or any evidence, hearsay-- anything you want to the attention of any DA or go to Prosecutor, Tom Sneddon. Let him or any DA or law enforcement person make your findings public. At least the parents would go to jail!
You should have lived in the days of the Salem Witch Hunts or the Catholic Inquisition. You would fit right into to those societies. Do you really think that in the 24 hour news cycle of today that anything you have suggested about a cover-up could happen? You really believe that there are loads of parents that would in essence sell their children for sex to with Michael Jackson? That is so sick to believe that. I do believe that there are some parents, mostly men, who are pedophiles. Maybe you believe Michael Jackson molested his own children. Of course, he wanted them only for that purpose.
orogeny
· 5 months ago
Yes, I believe that if someone is rich and powerful enough and spreads around enough hush money, it is possible to cover up virtually anything. The NDC's don't stop the prosecutor from doing anything...they simply stop the greedy "parents" from saying anything because they don't want to lose the money Jackson paid them.
I never said he admitted actually molesting the kids, just that he admitted paying off their parents to drop their charges.
Here's one reference to Jackson payoff. He also admitted the payoff in the Bashir documentary.
I honestly don't know why he purchased his children. My guess is that it was for the same reason he bought the chimp. Something to dress up and play with.
Alison
· 5 months ago
YES! I completely agree with you John. He was a child molester. The way that the media has covered his death is sickening. My husband and I have been saying all week, "Are we the only ones that remember that he molested children?" He should have been in prison.
Antinous
· 5 months ago
Grab the seat of your underwear folks, Micheal Jackson was never going to be convicted of child molestation in California. OJ wasn't guilty, neither are any of the football and basketball players guilty of rape, celebrity trumps honesty every time. Don't be mad at John, he's simply stating the facts, big time celebrities can crap on your face and walk away without fear of retribution. On a scale of 1-10 my guess is a solid ten for guilty, there's just way too much smoke. And even if there wasn't, waaaaaay to much time has been spent on his death,......by the way, when is the resurrection?
eric
· 5 months ago
Let's have a poll to find out how many people here think that he was a pedophile or not, that would be interesting. As for myself I'm sure that there were plenty of haters willing to smear him, and spread lies about him the way that Fox News smears Democrats.
All Comments
http://kunstler.com/blog/2009/06/the-man-in-the...
As America entered the horse latitudes of summer, befogged in a muffling stillness on deceptively calm seas, we were distracted for a while by visions of a pale death angel moonwalking across the deck of collective consciousness. Eerie parallels resound between the sordid demise of pop singer Michael Jackson and the fate of the nation.
Like the United States, Michael Jackson was spectacularly bankrupt, reportedly in the range of $800-million, which is rather a lot for an individual. Had he lived on a few more years, he might have qualified for his own TARP program -- snip --
Like the USA, Michael Jackson was a has-been. He hadn't recorded a song worth listening to in over two decades. He had done almost nothing but spin his wheels, hop around the globe from one place to another at enormous expense, and make himself available for award ceremonies to stoke his ego (and give advertisers a reason to promote some televised award show). He existed strictly on image, an anorectic figure nourished by moonbeams of attention, famous for saying that he loved his worshippers when the truth was he merely sucked the life out of them.
--More at link, but you get the point . . .
A good friend and former roommate of mine knew and worked for Michael Jackson for many years, including the years in question. Having heard some of the background of the stories, and given that my friend is one of the most trustworthy people I know, I'm inclined to believe the molestation charges are not true.
Now, I know that this sounds like a "friend of a friend" story, but for me, it is only one degree of separation. Having been to the ranch a couple of times, my gut feeling is added to my friends' recollections. I know this won't likely change any minds. And I completely agree that Michael was VERY odd, and likely troubled in many other ways. But the kiddie stuff? Totally don't believe it. For what it's worth.
http://www.mjfanclub.net/home/index.php?option=...
As I said, he was a friend and roommate, and one of the nicest and most trustworthy people I've ever known. He worked for Michael closely for the better part of a decade.
My aim with this post was to present--as best I could--the opinion of someone who knows a lot more about the situation than the rest of us do. I realize I can't go very far with that. I wish I could say more, but most of the discussions we had about those allegations were many years ago, and though I was able to form an opinion based on them, I no longer have precise details, even if I felt it was my place.
I guess that's all I have to say on the matter.
Despite my disagreement with your opinion, I have tried to be respectful and coax out of you SOMETHING that would give your assertion some credibility, but you consistently refuse to offer any. If you are going to continue accusing these children of lying under oath, you need to offer SOMETHING of substance, or just admit that you cannot and that your need to believe in MJ and your friend trumps the credibility of these young boys and all common sense and human decency.
We are in synch on one thing - I am so done with this whole post. I've learned that people will believe what they need to believe, and no amount of evidence will change THAT.
I really don't have anything more left to say about what I know. But I can give you a little more that might give you an insight into my friend's character.
In all the years he worked at Neverland, you have never seen his name in the press. Through all of the scandals, through all of this MJ-madness going on right now, you still haven't.
There are exactly two messages from him on the board I linked to, and even there, his full name hasn't been given. By now, he surely could have cashed in. Could have been on MSNBC and FOX "News" and 20/20, either as a defender or a detractor. But he didn't. I even ran a Google search on his name. Not one hit.
I have nothing else for you. And I'm not sure what you mean about "all those boys." I know of two. And I am not beyond believing that they were coaxed, no. Both of them are probably grown by now, and they will undoubtedly be spilling their stories for us soon enough.
I have no reason to protect or defend Michael Jackson. I didn't come here with that aim, only to give a different perspective from what little I know on the subject. Lots of other people here have opined from both sides. Everyone has got an opinion. You have mine.
Now I'm done.
As an added bonus, here's another anecdote for you,
When I was a kid, some local children falsely accused a guy in my neighborhood of molesting them. It was a lie. But the damage was so great that he lost his job, and everything else. It actually didn't take long for him to killed himself once he realized there was no redeeming himself. Shortly after, the kids admitted to lying. In this case there was no motive other malice or stupidity on the part of the kids. The guy wasn't rich, he had no social status.
My point is that kids are not saints, they are a combination of what their parents put into them and the untamed animal that we all start off as before society tames us through the process we call "growing up."
The fact that he was a brilliant entertainer is self evident. He was never convicted of child molestation - ever. I give more weight to established fact than suspicion.
Additionally, the trial on these charges DID return a 'not guilty' verdict, and that ought to count for something in weighing his legacy, even if he was convicted in the court of public opinion at the time in a "where there's smoke, there's fire" kind of way.
Thus, I think it is entirely appropriate, now that he is dead, to celebrate what was great about Michael Jackson and the positive things he contributed to our culture, while acknowledging that he was a strange man who had his faults.
I remember the great entertainer Sammy Davis Jr. once stated on television that every time he sees a cute little kid (a boy in this case) he wanted to bite his bottom. Also we saw more recently Russian President Vladimir Putin suddenly kissing a little boy on the tummy. Were they child molesters?
If Michael Jackson had come to your house and invited your 10-year-old son for a sleepover, you would have been free to refuse on the grounds that you believed MJ to be a child molester.
http://rawstory.com/08/news/2009/07/03/powerful...
My view is that it is a sad way to be remembered.
Get your priorities straight, cybergal!
you are a Michael Jackson hater.
seeing as MJ has sold more records then anybody... ever, I'm happy to be with the rest of the world on this.
As for the child molestation, I will tell you this -- as a MOTHER of 3 -- there was never a case against him by a real victim. End of story. If my child HAD been molested, it would be ONE time. These mothers who sent their kids over there for days, weeks, months on end -- unsupervised -- and their sons WERE molested, the parents should be prosecuted. But of course, that never happened. Why? There was no molestation, IMO.
As I said, IF this had happened to one of my children, it would have happened only ONCE. And if that were the case, he could have offered me $100 million and I wouldn't have settled. No books would have been written. I would just want justice, and to heal my child.
Isn't it interesting that every single parent would sell their child's soul for money?
I suspect Michael is still a child. It is all out there to see. People laugh at that, and his deformed face. But it is not funny. It is sad. And most Americans laughed at him, and then wanted to stone him to death.
Shame on America -- most are as shallow as tissue paper.
John, hope you're well. Roger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELyTBXzfQJ8
A very belated "thank you". I finally watched this and got the belly laugh I've needed ever since this whole conversation began!
in any event, I don't bloody recall this much of a fuss when Bette Davis died. .now there was a real cause for hand wringing!
:-)
http://media.photobucket.com/image/latoya%20jac...
So just stop it.
My best African American trans-friend didn't see the photo but when I told her the joke she thought it was funny, and she lives in damned Oklahoma!
She was like, "Uh huh!!!" and then giggled...
Okay, I have a sick sense of humor! Guilty! Sorry if I offended anyone's sensibilities...
As for the non-stop retrospectives, well, he is one of the most well-known entertainers in the world with sales that have yet to be matched by any entrainer. It's not surprising.
As a gay person how do you feel when people consider all gay men pedophiles? That is an unfair conclusion and I correct everyone who makes that comparison in my presence.
Jackson was the victim of money grubbing grifters who used his weirdness against him. A pedophilia is a compulsive mental illness. A pedophile could not be around the hundreds of children Jackson was on a constant basis and molest two children 20 years apart. Pedophilia does not work that way.
I know you are angry because gay issues aren't being handled as quickly as you wish they were. Don't take it out on Michael. Even huge fans of Mike, like me are tired of the 24 hour coverage.
You are a better person than this.
Please.
If it had been a 50 year old 250 lb hairy plumber down the road having sleepovers with little boys his ass would be in jail rotting for 60 years.
The only way Jacko gets excused is because of freaks like you who simply look the other way cuz he made some catchy pop tunes 20 years ago.
Take that away and what do you have? A 50 year old weirdo having sleepovers with other people's children in a locked room sporting a safe with "art" books of naked kids that somehow manage to find their way into the collections of convicted pedophiles, all protected with alarms in the hallway so he'd know if anybody was coming near the room.
But you know.. he was a victim and whatever.
Everyone needs to move on.
I also believe that his death has cleared the way for all of us to appreciate and recognize his talent - and his talent was substantial and real.
I miss the little boy who I grew up with, watching the Jackson 5 cartoon on Saturday morning. I feel sad for that little boy, because I truly believe he was never allowed to be just a child. He was, and is, a work horse and money bag for his warped parents (yes Katherine too). Joe seems overjoyed because now he finally has another shot at all that money - and if Katherine has it, you had better believe that Joe will have his fingers in it as well.
I AM sick to death of the way the mainstream 'media' has handled the Jackson story. As usual, they should feel VERY ashamed of themselves. The mainstream 'media' wriggle in every minor or major scandal like a dog rolling in the remains of a dead animal - because they like the scent and they want all of us to smell it too. They are disgusting.
Edward R. Murrow is rolling in his grave.
Perfectly stated - absolutely perfect.
OK, then - please cite examples, with attributions. I'll settle for 3, since that would be WAY LESS than the number of times a baby's diaper gets changed.
I think he was asexual and was identifying with those children as the child he was never allowed to be.
He was also a great humanitarian.
Most stylists have much better psychotherapeutic skills than some PhDs. And they are folks who are very well-informed about what's going on in the world.
OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ! OJ!
Both of them really were warped and twisted, became the destructive people they were because of our entertainment media. That is the real guilty party.
I imagine that every abuse survivor in the country has had some renewal of night terrors and anxiety. While the media behaves like a sick family, hiding the truth with silence, doing a dog and pony show to cover the foul corners that Jackson's victims endured, and ramming the betrayal down viewers throats, many survivors have needed to throw up. Alot.
To those who continue to support the idea that Jackson was not hurting children, shutTFup. America's children are listening. Those who've had their childhood and their bodies ripped apart, survived the horror, lived on with haunted dreams and deep scars, do not need more of that betrayal.
Yes, betrayal. Betrayal is rife with excuses for the monster that this man was. IMPO Jackson was a classic pedophile. Just saying his name makes me want to wash my mouth out with soap.
For the survivors sakes, for mine, just simply say, "I believe you and we are glad he can't destroy anyone, ever again". Now that is something to celebrate.
Peace.
He may have been gay, who knows but certainly he was beaten and beratted (per he and his siblings) by a brutal monster of a man, his father as a child. He was a damaged and troubled soul.
I took Michael Jackson at his word because there was no evidence that he was either a pedophile or molester.
It's easy to accuse someone who has great affection for children as a pedophile, hell, people do it all the time for financial gain or leverage to get what they want or just out of spite (ask the McMartins) and many innocent people get hurt and never recover from the accusations.
You here that so proudly proclaim Jackson as a pedophile are part of that sickining mob that made the man's life a nightmare. This is truly pathetic considering how so many of the public view gay men, like me and you here, of being perverts and child molestors too
To answer your question John, sadly, no, it isn't just you and that's the problem. shame on you, I thought even you were better than that. You should know better.
It's pathetic.
Talk about pathetic.
What part of "not guilty on all counts" did you not understand? The speculation phase is over, he was not guilty.
Are you aware that most MSM reporting is made up, where sensationalism to sell the media always trumps truth?
This administration rationilizes its homophobia by false associations. What are your fears?
I also find it interesting that James Brown has been given short shrift by the media (he had problems of his own) despite being more innovative and socially important a musical figure than Jackson, who idolized Brown.
It's none of anyone's business, unless they were personally affected.
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2009/...
And they whine about Jackson? Face it -- both Russert and Orth were/are whores.
As for the 13-year-olds, WHAT ABOUT THEIR MOMMIES? Few mention them. WHY did they allow their children to go there for months on end? Why didn't prosecutors ever prosecute them? I am a mother and no matter WHAT anyone else did to my children, *I* am to blame if anything happened time after time with the same person. Any decent parent should see this.
And what about the prosecutors? There isn't enough violent crime in California to keep those spotlight-hogging imbeciles busy? Talk about pot meeting kettle! I keep hearing about Jackson's behavior at the beginning of the trial, when he jumped on the roof of the car. But not a peep was said about the prosecutors.
It's Amurca -- the land of the hicks and hayseeds. Flap your gums, and 1,000 bleach blonde teevee lawyers are hogging the spotlight to tell why THEY KNOW why he is guilty.
America is SO embarrassing!
And this should be so obvious, but no one brings this up - if these articles are patently false, if every charge and insinuation is untrue, if Michael was completely innocent of one of the worst crimes a person can be accused of in our society, if Maureen Orth's FIVE articles written over a period of 11 YEARS got it all wrong - then why did he NEVER ONCE file a libel suit against A SINGLE ONE of these reports???
And yes, bad decisions were made - parents were stupid to allow their children to be unsupervised with a grown man, especially one with a history of even suspected inappropriate behavior with children. That they should be held accountable for.
A predator could say (to the child) that his family would be harmed if this happened. Wouldn't matter. Parents who pay attention would know. No, maybe not if anything happened ONE time, but if it had an effect on the child, the parent would know.
I think you are missing the point -- ALL these parents just wanted MONEY. Yes, all of them. And the prosecutors are little better than the parents. Instead of money, they wanted fame.
I really feel for the children -- whether they were molested or not, they didn't have even one parent who cared about them.
I'll go further. Is the constant praising of his musical artistry and music some form of mass hallucination?
Go back and listen to Thriller and you have 2, 3 songs that stand out, but are they that much better than the music by artists of that time we forgot almost as soon as their hit fell from the charts? Off The Wall is a disco hit, and lots of fun to move to. But it came after that form of music was dead and discredited, a monster sales hit by a child star who was surrounded by the best musicians and producers in the world.
After those two he had what.... 3 albums with a handful of scattered hits for his fans, each one less popular. They were already using the world "comeback" for the first of many times when he released Dangerous. I'm an obsessive listener of pop music from every decade and I honestly didn't even know about Jackson's last 2 albums. They are irrelevant to anyone who is not a die hard Jackson fan.
His career was essentially an 80's phenomenon. He was a standout in the most shrill, meaningless decade in the history of music and one could argue were it not for the freak show that accompanied everything he did he would have been just another artist of that period as forgotten as Bel Biv Devoe or Rockwell.
I'm not totally down on him. Jackson's music is innovative here and there. But I can't play a note, and if I could hire Quincy Jones I would put out some innovative songs too. I listened to Thriller for a moment yesterday and was struck by how dated and thin sounding, like most early 80s music, the production was.
In many cases he did not write his songs. And from Off The Wall to the stuff he was preparing for his upcoming tour.... how much did he progress? To me, real artists, over 20 plus years, progress and transform dramatically.... Beatles, Stones, Dylan, Radiohead, Wilco, Stevie Wonder. I don't see Jackson as being anywhere near that class. I don't see him as someone who advanced music much. I see him as being in the hit maker tradition, and a visual/dance talent of great magnitude.
His legacy is about fame. Not music. And his fame is a freak event. There's nothing like it in music history and there never will be. There are a lot of reasons for it, and his music is not inconsequential to it. But I think we need to be honest and see him as 1 part music artist to many more parts pure spectacle.
The child molestation is a part of that, and a sordid, weird thing to be lumping into his legacy along with everything else.
Roman Polanski, accused of sex with a minor, is a great director. When he dies there is no way the tributes will be focused on his films. Every story will reference the "controversy". Jackson deserves even less. He's a repeat offender who bought his way out of trouble over and over again. I don't think artistry gets you a get out of jail free pass and even if it did.... do we really all believe Jackson's art was that great?
And how did he buy himself justice...Didnt work for bernie did it? And I'm sure he defintely could have bought himself plenty. Not saying it doesn't happen but again...its statements like that that cant be proven or disproven. Not all who are convicted are guilty and not all who are declared not guilty are innocent. But we do know the family that accused him were money hungry and had changing stories of what allegedly happend. And read the article
Was Michael Jackson Framed?
http://www.buttonmonkey.com/misc/maryfischer.html
I see seemingly everyone on earth rushing to talk about what a musical genius he was. I own a few of his CDs, because I have CDs by everybody. But for the most part, I don't know a single other adult who does.
My cousins did when they were teenagers. I probably knew a few people who bought them as young people when they came out, including me. But they long ago stopped listening to him, and the young people in my family barely know who he is. If you're old enough to have been there when he made those records, as I am, and you still listen to them....
Really? You really do listen to Michael Jackson as a serious artist? Because you think his records are brilliant? Or because it was a part of a period for you?
How about you, the America Blog audience in general? Did you guys rock out to Michael Jackson on a daily basis? When is the last time you went to a party and everyone was intently listening to Michael Jackson and marveling at how brilliant he is? Have you heard him played in a cutting edge club any time recently? Has any musician more substantial than Lady GaGa talked about learning from him? Are they teaching him music schools these days? The hits you love... did he actually write them?
I'm purely talking about the music, not the rest of the package. I'm not doubting his talent as dancer, performer, etc - after all he trained since he was a toddler to entertain us. Or the fame he achieved, which is probably greater than any one artist will ever know. I'm not doubting he is in a lot of record collections, after all I can read the charts as well as anybody else.
Are we going to say the same things about Madonna's musical genius when she passes? She recorded during the same period. Her fame was perhaps the closest thing comparable to his. Honestly, I would say she is a more progressive artist than Jackson, in that she tried more things, and was more in step with the breaking things in pop music. When she is gone, much will be said about her fame, but not so much about her music.
Just saying is it's my belief that some of the people who are now praising his records didn't put one of his CDs on for many years until the news that he had passed inspired them to. Right now there is a rush to commemorate the man, an intense interest in reading it, and writers are stepping up and perhaps remembering their own love for him with a bit of extra cheese in the emotion of the moment.
It's not a crime. The man just died. He's being memorialized tomorrow. Only a real dickhead would go out of his way to point out he isn't impressed. I'm just that kind of guy. :)
Fixation, yes, and fetish, but the sexual component was submerged enough that even *he* was in denial about it.
Children were toys for him, even his own kids. There's an awful sense of property and interchangeability in his relationship with young boys, starting with his serial-befriending-and-leaving of all the most popular child actors of every era.
It reminds me, in ways, of how his Dad always treated the kids as properties first. Michael did the same thing, but with the goal of showing *his* kids and kid surrogates how much he loved them.
That his fetish veered as close as it did to sexual molestation--plying boys with wine and porn in a few cases--is a testament to his basic disconnect and irresponsibility more than any pattern of targeted sexual desire.
He even believed his physical intimacy with them was innocent, if not wholly chaste. We know better. He *was* abusing them, just in a way as unique as everything else he did.
I'm not disturbed by his creating his own family, but I am with the way parental rights and biological help were bought and traded from a position of extreme financial power, so much people-buying. He paved the way for many of the worst abuses of celebrity.
That said, I don't think the media has been working overboard to lionize him *OR* tarnish his memory--they're milking every single angle to death, positive or negative.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/du...
"Just reported on CNN. Calling it a Gay Hate Crime for sure. Have someone in custody.
Congressman from Calif irate that Commander did not tell him when he was visiting the base
just hours after the incident. Making reference to the ridiculous Don't Ask, Don't Tell rule.
Saying things have to change, the law has to chance and this could be the thing to bring
things to a head. Sorry someone had to die to have this brought to light."
It take so few to ruin a reputation and so much to repair it. Whatever he could do, he never could erase that stain even when cleared by justice.
oxymoron
He obviously was a great entertainer, and he was obviously acquitted of all molestation charges.
Regardless, if YOU feel he's a child molester, then don't give him space on your blog, though you're doing just that.
Huh?
The two are not incompatible.
But I take your point. Mel Gibson is cute and a good actor, but I haven't seen one of his movies since he proved to be such a douche.
I could take refuge in the fact that Mel Gibson is incontrovertibly a homophobic anti-Semitic bigot while Michael Jackson is an alleged child molester.
But that's dumb because I agree with you -- who doesn't think he actual was a child molester or, at the very least, very, very creepy?
Thankfully (sheesh) the media are on wall-to-wall non-stop Michael Jackson coverage (ala "Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead) so I'll have lots of opportunities to figure it out.
Preferably over a martini or two or three.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z7IiQdHfTc&feat...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKBLxh3u0tM&feat...
Number two, the dude was worldwide huge at 11 years old being the front "man" for the Jackson 5. Since way before that he was not allowed a childhood. His childhood, indeed his whole life was given up, if you will for others, including the bajillions of fans who recognize the impact, the contribution, the unmatched talent that was MJ. For a generation, Michael Jackson was a soundtrack for their youth.
So yes, of course the dude had serious issues, developmental and others. Just look at his face. He was coocoo crazy on many levels. But unfortunately for people with such astounding success and talent obvious at such a young age and the way he was brought to the fore, all the fame, insanity and a tragic end are the only possible conclusions. People like Michael Jackson just don't get old.
What's more, I am quite sure he didn't grab his pelvis in public while presuming to dance.
He was a composer around 1800 living in what was the Holy Roman Empire until Napolean conquered it. .
Anyway, Beethoven did write some nice songs. I hope that doesn't make me a Nazi, too.
So did Jim Jones, Henry Ford, Wagner, Hitler, John Wayne Gacy...
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
I don't know how you did it such a short post but you just made about half a dozen of them.
Crap! Jackson was a media creation. If those you mentioned lived in the current age, the media would have created similar media sensations of these stars. Jackson was warped and destroyed by the media. I don't think his behavior was appropriate but the entertainment media had a billion dollar investment in him and was not about to let him be convicted. They chewed up and spit out more child stars than we can count, destroyed them. I blame the entertainment industry for what Jackson was.
He didn't even play an instrument (in public).
Some of the J5 songs were hip. Post Jackson? Just mediocre stuff. Nothing as profound or moving as "accross the universe, yesterday, hey jude, imagine, instant kharma, here comes the sun, all you need as love, I am the walrus, day in the life, etc... I could go on.
In fact, Jackson couldn't even hold a candle to Billy Joel - more his contemporary - a real musical talent.
I know, I know, it's all in the eye of the beholder.
Very funny. MJ trumps Beethoven. That's a good one.
I don't think much of the CorporateM$M in the first place, and this way-over-the-top "Michael Jackson is a minor god" stuff--every day, over and over, makes me a little sick to my stomach.
And in general, when someone dies, people try to praise the good stuff about them instead of harping on the bad stuff. Everyone's done something bad, anyway.
Dying at 50 will install him in the pop icon pantheon of demigods. He'd like that.
was that joke?
I also believe that George Bush was guilty of war crimes and subverting the Constitution. Can I prove it? No, legally I can't, but the overwhelming evidence indicates that the three people I mentioned specifically were guilty of what they were accused of.
Personally, I think it has more to do with who the victim was. IE Nicole Simpson and Bonnie Bakely were married to/related to the perpetrator. The woman Spector was convicted of killing he was not related to.
Think of the cases in your own area. Are there are different outcomes if the person killed their spouse/lover vs killing a stranger - if the evidence all is similar in strength? All those years where it was impossible legally for a spouse to rape their spouse. The long road to domestic violence laws to take hold.
There also appears to be a lower penalty if you abuse/kill your own child, than if you pick up and kill a child off the street. Like - it's ok for you to grow your own victim.
Very interesting stuff from a sociological point of view.
If both OJ and MJ had been purple, pink, green, blue, or white, I would have come to the same conclusion.
For example, your name could be Ahmad, Yitzak, Fauntelroy, or Juan. It doesn't make a damned difference to me. You could be lesbian, gay, bi, trans, or hetereo, it doesn't make a damned difference to me.
Get that "bigot" label out of your mind, Ramon. I don't appreciate it and nothing could be further from the truth.
Likewise, there is a difference between "not guilty" and "innocent."
The US Code also distinguished between "lying under oath" and commiting "perjury."
In criminal law the jury has to find "beyond a reasonable doubt" that a person is guilty. If just one juror has a doubt that can deter a "guilty" finding.
Likewise, the burden of proof in a civil law suit differs from the burden of proof in a criminal case.
And Dick Cheney has never been charged with war crimes.
It's no sweat off by my butt. He was found not guilty. Not guilty is NOT the same as innocent. Research the law. There are different burdens of proof in criminal law vs civil law.
Only if it is proven as fact - which I don't think it has (though I confess I really wouldn't know since I'm not up on anything related to him). I suspect the same, but I don't really know.
Except for a few early J5 songs, I never really cared much for Jackson's music. I don't get what people see in it or him.
So to answer your question I would say, no.
But still I'm sick of hearing about him. After this week (or month), he'll hopefully move off the front page for good.
He is spoiling all the good news shows I used to watch.
The media is a joke now.
http://www.rall.com/uploaded_images/7-2-09-7286...
I will always remember when MTV was in its infancy, and he came out with "Billie Jean" and "Thriller". WOW...it truly WAS a phenomenon, and changed the game thereafter. So, I give him props for his creativity and talent which he richly deserves, but his strangeness will always cloud that part of him that was truly amazing.
Yes, Michael Jackson occupied a vaunted, possibly unmatched position in the pop music world for several years in the 1980's. The Michael Jackson of "The Jackson 5" days hardly merits discussion, IMO.
If one wants to equate "greatness" by the number of downloads or albums sold, then you certainly may.
However, I'll choose to remain somewhat of a snob (being a classically trained musician) and judge greatness in a different way.
When it comes to dancers, I'll gladly lift up Judith Jamison in her heyday as one of the most gifted and "great" dancers of recent times. There is little to compare with her marvelous line and smoking passion.
When it comes to singers, I'll surely lift up voices like Carmen McRae, Sarah Vaughan, Nat King Cole as being truly "great" voices who needed no producing nor relied on effects to evidence their unique talents.
Richard Wagner's music and his musical style are still a huge influence on music today. Wagner's idea of leitmotif, is pretty much copied in every movie soundtrack.
However, Wagner the person, was a well known anti Semite, was constantly broke, and had a child out of wedlock.
There will certainly be tell-all books all too soon that will reveal the dark side, so to speak, but, for now, that's not what most people want to hear about.
To the popular culture -- definitely -- but that's not a good thing necessarily. Beavis and Butthead made a contribution to popular culture.
But without any doubt, he was a pop music genius. His contribution and his talent cannot be minimized. I grew up with him from the Jackson 5; I was in high school when I saw the Mowtown 25 anniversary show where he was positively ELECTRIFYING in his performance of "Billy Jean" A performance I will never forget.
There are plenty of great artists that were a complete mess in their personal lives, with psychological problems/ drug and alcohol problems, etc. but I think they all deserve to be remembered for their contributions to the world more than their personal demons. Its sad that MJ's problems were so public, but I hope in the coming years he is remembered for his creative work more than his questionable personal life.
We won't have Sarah to kick around any more.
(Although I'm guessing we will.)
"Greg thanks for a magic moment in my life, I hope it was the same for you, please come to visit me at Neverland. Lets hope this is the beginning of a long friendship and never lose your boyish spirit its imortal. Love always M. Jackson."
Creepy. He was a great entertainer, but the last 15 years of his life were very disturbing and have to weigh in somehow to how we evaluate the man's life.
It is sad...Aztecs cut the hearts out of the prettiest virgins while we do it more slowly thru fame and without the sexual strictures.
the nose job? uh..do people who get nose jobs hate their racial identies or just want to look "better" for themselves?
the hair thing? well as far as i know black women and some men change the way their natural hair color is to something "straight" but we can point that to other racial groups as well. do those men and women hate their race or themselves because its not the way nature/God made them?
the skin thing...oh i thought michael explained the virtiligo (sic) but i guess people still dont want to believe that even though he finally said what was happening to him but the innudedo of him lightening and bleaching his skin still stays.
http://www.villagevoice.com/2009-07-01/news/mic...
No one has mentioned the children of Michael Jackson. A couple of interesting links:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-51...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-51320...
Jackson certainly was a phenom and a legend in his own time (or mind as they say in the wrestling world). The facts of his personal life indicated that he liked to sleep with young boys and that is the way many will remember him.
That he was obviously a drug addict and a terrible role model, in that respect, is not to be disputed. Much of this has come out since his death.
For many, these things will not matter and he will remain an icon.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&i...
Haha you have to see it. It contains MJ's ghost!
watch this all the way through. I dare you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z7IiQdHfTc&feat...
For the record, I really do love some of MJ's music - and I don't need a lecture from you or a 25-year-old video to remind me how much I liked him back in the day. Despite your assumption that I must be 80 years old because I dare to say that some artists, like, um, I don't know, FUCKING BEETHOVEN maybe, were greater talents, I actually grew up with Michael. I was in high school when "Thriller" came out, and like just about everyone who was alive at the time, I just about wore out my copy of the album (though I ALWAYS skipped "The Girl Is Mine" - how could you NOT??).
But to take balanced appraisal of his life, it is IMPOSSIBLE to overlook all the freaky/gross stuff. Was he a sad, damaged human being? My God, of course. His own description of his father declares that the man was a monster. And what could be sadder than a person with so much self-loathing that they erase themselves and create a caricature of the Ideal American Image, i.e. a white person, complete with a dainty nose, cleft chin, and ruby lips? And please, no more vitiligo excuses. Could he not have had the pale patches of his skin treated to match his natural pigment, rather than the reverse?
If you want to post videos, post his original performance of "Don't Stop 'til You Get Enough". THERE is a natural, nice-looking man, performing with JOY and FEELING, not the technically flawless but hard and cold performances of the "Thriller" videos. "Off The Wall" was a celebration of artistic freedom and release - after that, he became Michael The Commercial Commodity, and then Michael
The Pop Culture Sideshow.
And then he became Michael The Person No Sane Parent Would Leave Their Little Boy With. And even THAT Michael is someone I have some sympathy for. A common trait of pedophiles is that they are developmentally arrested, drawn to children because they are incapable of functioning sexually as adults. And it makes perfect sense - he was denied a normal childhood, and so used his adult freedom to try to experience the one thing in life which his money and fame couldn't buy. That does NOT excuse his victimization of these boys, but there is no denying that the man never had a fair chance at anything close to a normal life. It's all incredibly sad - for him AND for his victims.
And they ARE victims. And because that fact is something which is being deliberately swept under the carpet in the wake of his death, this entire post has made my blood boil. No honest assessment of his life can deny his talent and contribution to pop culture, although I don't believe he ranks with the greatest artists of the ages (and it may shock you to know that I am NOT a contemporary of Beethoven's, and that I actually liked him in my teens - I encourage you to get to know the classics, you may be stunned to discover that they still have something relevant to say to us in the present). But likewise, no honest assessment can deny the unpleasant aspects of his life. It's THERE, and we as a society ignore the baser instincts of human nature to the detriment of us all.
Why? Obama continues to stand behind his statements that gay=worthy citizen, while legally gay=pedophile.
Why should the public at large be any better than his majesty?
The world is rid of a dangerous pedophile. Let's move on!
http://www.vanityfair.com/online/politics/2009/...
But that's just me, I guess.
Look, if you have millions to spend on frivolous things, then spending $20 million on a civil settlement to avoid even a very small risk of being found guilty surely seems worth it. Plus you keep your private affairs private, including things like photos of your dick being shown on the nightly news.
On the other hand, what kind of victim would accept $20 million rather than a conviction? Think about it.
I don't think Jackson was the kind of pedophile that just picked up kids off the street. IMO, he found money-hungry parents who were willing to sell their kids and set things up so they could never tell.
You should have lived in the days of the Salem Witch Hunts or the Catholic Inquisition. You would fit right into to those societies. Do you really think that in the 24 hour news cycle of today that anything you have suggested about a cover-up could happen? You really believe that there are loads of parents that would in essence sell their children for sex to with Michael Jackson? That is so sick to believe that. I do believe that there are some parents, mostly men, who are pedophiles. Maybe you believe Michael Jackson molested his own children. Of course, he wanted them only for that purpose.
I never said he admitted actually molesting the kids, just that he admitted paying off their parents to drop their charges.
Here's one reference to Jackson payoff. He also admitted the payoff in the Bashir documentary.
http://tvnews.vanderbilt.edu/program.pl?ID=353294
I honestly don't know why he purchased his children. My guess is that it was for the same reason he bought the chimp. Something to dress up and play with.