DISQUS

scytherius · 11 months ago

You know what it's time to do? Time to stand up to Mormon's as a crowd. =) The pressure needs to be INCREASED on these bigots.

And, as an aside, what's this BS with bigots and idiots taking out newspaper ads? These people, the tin foil hat brigade saying that Obama was born on Mars, etc.?

Rightwingnut · 11 months ago

Ya, you should totally burn down all their churches. That's probably exactly what Obama meant when he talked about uniting the country. Don't worry about their 1st amendment rights, screw em all!

That is the liberal way right? Silence all opposition just like Saddam did. Just like Hitler did. Just like Obama is trying to do.

uglicoyote · 11 months ago

Exactly how is Obama trying to silence all opposition like Saddam and Hitler. Post the factual information that supports this ranting. Your wide ranging knowledge of world history extends from "A" to "B". I don't know whether or not you are a Mormon but you are most definitely a moron.

Naked Bunny with a Whip · 11 months ago

I wouldn't bother. RWN is plainly not the sort who can string together individual thoughts into a coherent line of reasoning.

uglicoyote · 11 months ago

Ah, yes. But one must keep trying. Besides, it ties him up for a while and I find him to be mildly amusing. I'm bored this evening.

RightWingNut · 11 months ago

Not Mormon but I've lived in Utah for a few years and they have some things I disagree with (lots actually) but they're not bad people.

Obama has used tactics such as asking his followers to bombard conservative talk radio shows with calls when they were not making him look good.

The democrats are already talking about the 'fairness doctrine' which would effectively silence talk radio (which just happens to be mostly right wing).

uglicoyote · 11 months ago

You still haven't indicated how these actions (bombarding talk shows with phone calls) or Democrats talking about the "fairness doctrine" ( a rule that actually existed in broadcasting before Reagan gave the airwaves away to corporate interests) in any way allows the comparison between Obama, Saddam, and Hitler. Make the connection in some logical way or go back to using your computer for a paper weight.
BTW, here's a short history of the fairness doctrine. http://www.museum.tv/archives/etv/F/htmlF/fairn... Or try this one http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2053

scytherius · 11 months ago

Oh good call. Just like the Right Wing has done in the South for YEARS. And, yeah, my bad. Speaking out as a group agaionst something in which YOU believe is ont permitted. I am SO sorry. Now go put your tinfoil hat back on and go hope Obama was born on Mars.

And, btw. The liberal way is to grind the Right Wing into the dirt for all time. We used to be easy going and pleasant but you drove that out of us. We learned from our mistake over the past 8 years. Never again. And boy are YOU in trouble when that old white male demographic dies out (I'm one of em lest you think that a bigoted comment).

Can we say Fairness Doctrine?

RightWingNut · 11 months ago

Speaking out against something you don't agree with is fine. What concerns me is all of the hatred and animosity I'm seeing on this page and many other blogs like it.

I use the name right wing nut just because I know that's what you think of me but I'm pretty moderate. I think we all need to come to the middle and work together to fix our country because it is really screwed right now. Blame it on Bush, blame it on Clinton, blame it on whoever you want to that doesn't really matter. What matters is that we come together and fix it.

scytherius · 11 months ago

Oh the hatred and animosity is real. For me, it's had a good 8 years to grow. Torture, killing, lying, hatred of all things non-Christian, collapse of an economy and nation, the list goes on.

So, yeah, I and pretty much all liberal-dom is furious, angry, intolerant, again . . .the list goes on.

As is said . . . you reap what you sow and the Right is JUST about ready to reap it's reward.

RightWingNut · 11 months ago

I'm glad I reaped mine during the last 7 years of our booming economy than because Obama's plans look scary to me.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

Tell me, how's Bush's "booming economy," working for you now?

Malcolm · 11 months ago

No point in burning down all churches, just take away their tax deductions.

hacene Haouas · 11 months ago

No, you've got it all wrong you numb nuts.That's the motto of the right wing sons of Bitchs. Fuck you and the mormon sect .

Older_Wiser · 11 months ago

Mormons aren't christians. Neither are christians. You can't believe all that drivel and still care about other human beings, in the end, because religion teaches that it's all about you, you and the supposed afterlife that allows you to live forever and ever.

What a fairy tale.

Rightwingnut · 11 months ago

Following your logic Mormons would be the most Christian since they have the largest missionary force in the world. They have 10's of 1000's of people taking 2 years out of their life and paying for it on their own to tell people about Christ and that 'fairy tale'.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

To prove to the world how out of touch with reality they really are?

Their going to get a lot more doors slammed in their face in this country! Anyone who can read and understand the Constitution of America and Bill of Rights -- but go ahead knock on my door and see what happens.

tbhull · 11 months ago

Instead of mass imprisonment of all these Mormon nutbug fundie fucks, which even I can admit would be out of line, the US government should round up all Mormons, ship them off to Iraq and let them embark on a life long mission to convert all the fine folks there. Jesus told me this is a must do.

Rightwingnut · 11 months ago

That is soo hilarious! Seriously, you are way better than the conservative bigots that you hate.

Jackass.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

Isn't this the tortoise calling the hare slow.

tbhull · 11 months ago

I have paid my dues with the libs and have gained great power. Just are Rush tought your easy to follow arse, we are all agnostic.

We are watching you and your types fundie boy and the long arm of government, which the fundie fuck fellowship no longer controls, will soon tell you that prayer is prohibited. Hahahahahaha!!!!!

Malcolm · 11 months ago

Love it. If the Supremes rule that those living in the US can be imprisoned indefinitely without trial, O should be able to make it a reality.

Thom · 11 months ago

Crikey, John, you're doing the same thing they're doing. Just as it's not "mob violence" or abridgement of free speech rights by criticizing Mormons, it's not "making free speech illegal" by running an ad in a paper. You're still free to tell them how foolish and hypocritical they are, which I sincerely hope you keep doing.

Georganne · 11 months ago

Well, was that it? Have gays shot their retaliation wad? A lot of anti-Mormon, boycott this, complain about that commotion for three short weeks -- a couple bigots quit their jobs -- then silence. Oh yeah, there's Dec 10 -- gays won't be missed except where they're already appreciated. And refraining from commercial transactions on Dec 10? Whoopy doo! We'll just do them on Dec 11 and won't the country be shaken to its core by what the gays did -- or didn't do -- on Dec 10.

SouthernYankee · 11 months ago

Well lets see what the next thing they want to take. Hmm oh, how about catholics who voted for Obama need to go to confessi oh forget that they already want to do that. Well nothing is going to happen. Free speech is free speech no matter who says it.

Griffon · 11 months ago

Again, I'll risk having myself banned and ask why this topic is not directed at Harry Reid, one of the higher-ranking US government employees and...the first Mormon to serve as Senate Majority Leader. I am not a fan, btw, having found his "leadership" to be rather spineless.

I would imagine his statement on this issue would increasingly be of interest.

tangodaddy · 11 months ago

I agree Harry Reids leadership has seemed spineless. Andi If asked correctly his statement on the issue would be of interest. Is his approach to issues one of secular common sense and pragmatic outreach or is there an underlying influence of Morman ideals at play? And if there is an influence how would that be any different from any other bible thumping politician? Mormanism can be questioned as can any religious or philisophical concept. I believe when it comes to religion," organization is the death of the idea" The idea of post living baptism.deserves ridicule.

RandomMormonGuy · 11 months ago

"post living baptism" is mentioned in the bible, check out 1 Corinthians 15 verse 29

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"

shanobama · 11 months ago

Sounds like an awkward translation. People are baptized so they will have something in the afterlife... if the dead rise. You are baptized for your death usually.

But if you are baptising people without their consent, then maybe you disregard the wishes of the dead. How do you know?

There is no point in baptism if there is no afterlife. That is the statement here.

larry · 11 months ago

Ask a Baptist...they will tell you that the Mormons aren't Christian. Ask Mike Huckabee......
The LDS cultist are out of control.

Rightwingnut · 11 months ago

Mike Huckabee is just mad that he lost to a Mormon and Baptist preachers are mad that Mormons are converting their followers which = less money.

RevDrBillyBob · 11 months ago

I, the Rev. Dr. Billy Bob, just perfomred a ceremony ... I de-Mormonized all the dead Mormons, then de-married 'em, and then RE-married 'em, making sure that men married men, and that women married women. Clever, huh ?

Indigo · 11 months ago

Mazel tov!

RandonMormonGuy · 11 months ago

I think it's very sad that liberals and gay's have decided to focus their anger on the Mormon church. You lost the vote, either work harder to get it passed next time or accept that the majority of people don't agree with your way of life. If the Mormons are just a wacky cult than why do you care who they baptize? By the way, they are working with the Jews to make sure no one is baptized against their will. Mormons don't believe that Jesus had 3 wives, the LDS church has no official stance on Jesus' marriage. Mormons aren't the only ones that believe Jesus and Satan are brothers, in fact most Christians do. Most Christians beleive we are ALL Gods children, even satan. Here is a great site if you want to know what the Mormons really beleive http://www.mormon.org/mormonorg/eng/

If you notice there was no hate in my comments but I am sure there will be many hateful angry responses to it. WWJD?

ThingsComeUndone · 11 months ago

You take away someone's right to marry and you wonder why we are angry? Your religion is your religion its your choice do not try and force your views on the rest of us Be Afraid you have sown the wind and will reap the Whirl Wind.
Or have you forgotten what its like to be persecuted?
I see nothing wrong with 2 people who love each other from getting married.

RandonMormonGuy · 11 months ago

What do you mean by Be Afraid? I'm going to assume that you voted for Obama since you're pro gay-marriage, doesn't Obama want to bring us all together?

How is threatening and attacking a group of people going to accomplish that? And please don't say that's what the Mormons did. The church excersized its 1st amendment right and never persuaded or condoned any acts of hatred or violence against gays. The church expressed it's opinion and encouraged all Christians to do the same.

Also, you need to keep in mind that the Mormons were'nt the only church against gay marriage. Why has it been singled out? What about the 100's of other churches that are also against gay marriage?

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

The Mormons are being singled out because, in spite of being about 2% of California's population, they provided almost 50% of the funding.

By they way, you can't claim that you're exercising your first amendment rights, then whine and cry when someone expresses theirs in return. Just a pet peeve of mine.

ThingsComeUndone · 11 months ago

Your people do know persecution you were not allowed to have polygamous marriage in fact every thing your people say about gays being immoral was said about your people. Not that I care I'm pro marriage for love.
But what strikes me is the lack of Empathy. The way you Mormons have adopted the rules and mindset of the very same people who have oppressed you.
They say that a child who has been abused has a much greater chance of growing up to be an abuser.
I look at how your church acts and wonder if the same is true for large groups of people.
Look in the mirror and see the same faces of the mob that drove you from Illinois.
Be afraid THEY have finally won.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

People tend to get rather pissed when their RIGHTS are removed. Your kind deserve much worse than we've been giving you.

RandomMormonGuy · 11 months ago

That's very funny, you obviously don't know much about the history of the Mormon church. We went through much worse persecution than the gay's will ever see.

The rights of the Mormon church were all taken away, our homes and churches were burnt to the ground and our families were murdered. Get back to me when that starts happening to the gays and we can talk.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

For centuries, gays have been burned at the stake, tortured, murdered in ways that make me ill just thinking about, experimented on, psychologically tormented, and the list goes on. Mathew Shepherd was not an isolated case. The thing is, we never hurt anyone. Unlike the Mormons, who, in their early days, tried to take over numerous governments, forced girls into polygamous marriages, and don't get us started on Mountain Meadows. With all you've suffered, one would expect you to be more sympathetic to our suffering.

Queer Canuck · 11 months ago

It's not comparable. Being gay is not a choice. We have been hated for who we are.
.

shanobama · 11 months ago

So the oppressed becomes the oppressor?

That is dysfunctional. Especially with your history of polygamy.

Webster · 11 months ago

You obviously don't know much about gay history. Research what the Nazis did to gay people. By the way, Mormons were complicit with the Nazis--the latter liked the Mormon genealogy projects--that way the Nazis could root out people with Jewish backgrounds. You really ought to be deeply ashamed of yourself--and your church.

LowKey · 11 months ago

No Mormonguy, it is YOU who don't know anything about mormon history.

I know what you learned going to primary, to sunday school, priesthood meetings, seminary and religion classes at BYU. It's 99 percent bullshit bro.

Smith was never "persecuted" for telling he saw god and Jesus in New York. He didnt even make up that story until the Church of Christ had moved to Ohio.

The Church of Christ left New York because the people around where the church was organized knew Smith for what he was, a con man and a petty criminal.

The Latter Day Saints (they changed their name) never left Ohio because of persecution. About half the church stayed in Ohio and excommunicated Smith for being a con man and a seducer of teenage girls. The other half fled with him to missouri because Smith had to get out of town because he was about to be prosecuted for bank fraud. He was convicted in abstentia.

The Mormons started two civil wars in Missouri. They were always the aggressors. The first war they lost because most of the terrorist militia Smith marched from Ohio to MIssouri got cholera. Because the didnt boil their water before they drank it. Remember that thing about "hot drinks?" Too bad Smith didn't get a revelation that told him that they should boil the wqter instead of just the opposite.

The second war began with Sidney Rigdon declaring a war of extermination on the gentiels of missouri and a promise to wipe the off the face of the earth and to steal their property. The mormons started to do this. The their terrorits militia got its ass kicked and Smith and a few other ringleaders were convicted of treason. As part of the peace settlement betwween the state of Missouri and the treasonous mormons, the mormons promised to leave the state. Which they did and they went to Illinois.

Smith escaped the jail he was in by bribing his guards with cash and whiskey and he fled to Illinois a year or so later.

In the second treasonous civil war the terrorist mormons started, some state militia men went off and committed some war crimes on a mormon settlement. If I recall correctly 18 non-terrorists were killed. This is a horrible event, but it was not religious persecution, the people would never have been killed had the mormons not been terrorists and started a civil war where they raped robbed and pillaged non-mormon towns and villages. It was collateral damage, not persecution.

In Illinois the mormosn agin terrorized their neighbours, sole form them then had the cases dismissed in the mormon run courts. Smith started another massive land swindle and ripped off his members and new converts who came to Illinois. He aslos greatly expanded his seductions of the wives and children of his followers. He had sex with about 8 wives of his followers, and many teen-age girls, two of them as young as 14. He also had sex with his foster daughters and stole their inheritance.

When mormons exposed his despicable deeds in a newspaper, and rpomised to expose the details of his plans to take over the US and start a dictatorship in the following issue, he ordered his thugs to destroy the priniting press. For this he was charged and jailed in nearby Carthage.

He would ahve been released on bail, as were all fo his co-defendents by Hyrum SMith, but it seems that in between charges being filed and his appeaqrnce at the courthouse, Smith had called out his private militia to fight the State of Illinois. Boy this guy never did lear did he. So he and Hyrum were not released, beacue they were charged with the additional crime of treason, the punishment being death.

but some vigilantes did the States work for them, they came to the jail and after a gun battle (Smith had a gun smuggled into him) he was lynched. FOR COMMITTING TREASON. Not for being mormon.

I could go on and on with all the rest of the made up persecutions for hours, let me just add that I do think mormons were "persecuted" over polygamy. But you claimed that mormons had their homes and churches burned to the ground and families murdered. Bullshit, that never happened in the republican parties battle to do away with "the twin relics of barbarism, polygamy and slavery."

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Word. It's about time someone started blogging the truths about this so called "persecuted" religion. Yeah, their so persectuted because they don't understand separation of church and state and subsequently can't snow Americans into throwing out the First Amendment so that they can tyrranize their neighbors.

LowKey · 11 months ago

Mormons are not being liars when they spew forth the bs about being persecuted. They get indoctrinated with the mythology of being a persecuted people from the time they are three years old. They are only liars when they are confronted with actual history and continue to spew forth the lies they were taught in sunday school and seminary classes. I notice randommormonguy has disappeared. Hopefully, he is poking his head outside of his delusion bubble and learning a little bit about the real word.

Probably not though, the red pill is hard to swallow for most mormons.

Of course the most ironic part of the whole persecution thing is that the one time Mormons actually were persecuted for their religious practices was for . . . get this . . . practicing marriage in a "non-traditional" way.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Yeah, pretty ironic. But, it's not like anybody is persecuting them now based on any substantiated information. As far as their history goes, they tyrannized their neighbors and were therefore persecuted -- not that they were persecuted out of the clear blue sky in all instances. Although the whole polygamy thing didn't go over too well and I can buy that they were persecuted for that. It's too bad their so hypocritical as to take a stand on definitions of marriage issues of all things. Probably the last thing they should open their mouths about...

ellie · 11 months ago

I already emailed John about this but:

Maybe we can talk John into taking donations for a rebuttal. I would donate money to see John's response as a full page retort to this bigoted BS.

offspring · 11 months ago

if anyone knows mob violence the mormons do

Rightwingnut · 11 months ago

Would you please give us a link to the newspaper ad, I'm having a hard time understanding why you're so angry without actually seeing the ad. How do I know there's really an ad? For all I know you just hate Mormons and made up this whole thing.

Show me the ad! The Mormons have taken a lot of undeserved abuse during the last 3-4 weeks and they are probably just standing up for their right to speak out on moral issues (ie. gay marriage).

ellie · 11 months ago

http://www.asoftanswer.com/2008/12/05/ny-times-...

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

They have? Golly.....did I miss the ballot initiative put forward by the gays to remove their marriage rights?

steveballmer · 11 months ago

.... ohhhh, you said Mormon!

lol
I had it wrong there for a second!

http://fakesteveballmer.blogspot.com

Indigo · 11 months ago

"LSD not LDS."
-Lee 'Scratch' Perry

sammyp · 11 months ago

agree with most of what you say, but as a former member of the LDS church i take issue with some of your statements

1. the church considers everybody brothers and sisters - children of the heavenly father(god) - included is jesus and satan - so the belief is that satan is everyone's brother - the same with jesus - they just put him on a pedestal as our "elder brother" (heavenly mother's first whiny baby perhaps? - the asshole older brother who thinks he knows better for us?)

2. and the whole jesus having 3 wives thing - have never once heard that - could've been dumb ramblings from early church leaders, but it's not in any of the current doctrine or scriptures and is not a part of the belief of current members.

just plain old ridiculous myths - doesn't really make sense to try to point out ridiculous doctrines of one church, when ALL the world's religions are full of this silly shit. I absolutely hate people who complain about how ridiculous one religion is and call it a cult, while they run off to stick a wafer on their mouth and tell a pedophile about their sins. Pontificating about whether or not mormons are christians is like those out there who try to say San Francisco shouldn't be included as part of the U.S.

ThingsComeUndone · 11 months ago

John by getting the Dead to consent to their conversion to the Mormon cult assuming you follow their logic chain's assumptions.... well the Mormons are claiming to get consent from the dead by talking to them.
Thats Necromancy, Death Magic all the Christian churches are against the idea that you can talk to the dead because that implies that a Necromancer can take a soul out of Heaven or Hell and get them to consent to being converted.
Are the Mormons guilty of Necromancy? They claim to be SUFFER NOT A WITCH TO LIVE!
SUFFER NOT A WITCH TO LIVE!! SUFFER NOT A MORMON

RandomMormonGuy · 11 months ago

You should really visit the site www.lds.org as it will help answer some of your questions about the Mormon church. The Mormons don't believe they can talk to the dead, why would you even bring up such a silly idea.

phadreus · 11 months ago

Well since the word of Christ is the person CHOOSING Christianity is the only word that counts to the God you claim to believe in .... either the Mormon Church talks to dead people to get their approval for the baptismal or the church is involved in Hersey, claiming converts to Christ when Christs own words would deny that conversion. Talk about a bunch of hypocrites ................................ sorry you can't have it both ways, claiming to be supporting the "word of god" while violating the "word of god" when you Baptiste dead people who DID NOT convert alive when god says it its the only time that counts ........ Me personally thinks there is money involved in some way with these necrophiliac conversions.

phadreus · 11 months ago

... Heresy ....

ThingsComeUndone · 11 months ago

How then do you get consent from the dead to convert them without talking to them or communicating with them in some way?
In other words Necromancy or Death Magic.

random girl · 11 months ago

lds or 'mormons' do baptisms for the dead to give them the oppourtunity to be converted. Doing it for them is not forcing them to be converted. simply giving them an oppourtunity they didn't have before they died.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Yeah, let's everyone join the Cult so that we can believe as they do. Well heres a bulletin for you, I was raised LDS and I know it to be a hogwash religion when I started studying religious history and theology. I've been to lds. org and I still believe in equal rights for minorities.

Everyone isn't as gullible as you.

Let's go to neo-nazi. org and see if they say that they are bigots.... oh they don't, well it must be true! Do you see how crazy that is? Your LDS so probably not...

reflux1000 · 11 months ago

Great line of reasoning.Talking to they dead is forbidden by The Lord God of Abraham ,Issac and Jacob,The Word Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit.Oh by the way the Word Created all things including Lucifer(Satan) so that makes it impossible for Jesus to be Satans Brother.Now if the Mormon's say Jesus and Satan are Brothers then that means Satan is the Son Of God.

RandomMormonGuy · 11 months ago

This is an excerpt from the ad:


Nevertheless we’re united in this: The violence and intimidation being directed against the LDS or “Mormon” church, or other religious organizations - and even against individual believers - simply because they supported Proposition 8 is an outrage that must stop.


Wow those bigots. The Mormons didn't even place this ad a group of other Christian churches did as a way to show gratitude to the Mormon church for all it did to stop gay marriage.

I hope that those of you calling the Mormons bigots will do a little research before you just accept this bloggers OPINION as truth and fact. The Mormons might be different than you and you might think we're wierd, that's fine but we're all Americans and these partisan attacks really need to stop.

Someone asked for the persecution of a group of people to stop and you are calling him a bigot. Was Martin Luther King Jr. a bigot for asking for violence against blacks tostop. What about all the gay activists that work hard to stop the violence against the GLBT community? It is bigoted of you to write the things you've written and you are showing that you are much worse than the people you try to put down.

ThingsComeUndone · 11 months ago

This is like the Klan asking that people stop hating them for trying to take away Dr King's rights. Much like the slavery issue many mainstream churches are behind the curve. In a hundred years or so your own Church Leaders will call you miss guided.
And sad you are worried about the Gays coming after your various anti gay religions...because the gays are so violent.

Naked Bunny with a Whip · 11 months ago

Sorry, but anyone who supports telling hideous lies to rip marriages apart like the pro-Proposition 8 people did don't get to call other people bigots for being upset with them. Nobody much cares what freaky crap you believe in as long as you aren't going out of your way to hurt people who haven't done anything to you. But you couldn't leave people to their happiness, and now you're finding out why people in the KKK hide their faces:

RandomMormonGuy · 11 months ago

I don't live in CA so I didn't see all of the ads and I don't know which lies you're talking about. I did see some ads mocking the Mormon church though (all hideous lies) and it seems like that was happening on both sides.

You didn't answer my question though, how is a person a bigot by asking for a stop to violence. Someone put an ad in the paper asking for a stop to the persecution of the Mormons and he is called a bigot. That makes no sense to me, if it makes sense to you would you please explain it to me rather than continue bashing my religion. I would really like to understand.

shanobama · 11 months ago

You struck the first blow, bashing hard, by taking AWAY an established right in California...with money and political action.

Mormons and Catholics should apologize to every gay person who has had their marriage put in legal jeopardy because of the actions of the church political pact. That would be the Christian thing to do.

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

Yes...the oppressors want to be respected, because they believe in imaginary flying voices in the sky and those voices tell them who they should persecute in the laws and the constitutions of this country.

As far as I'm concerned, people who choose this "religious" belief are free to choose another one that respects all Americans. It isn't intimidation to point out the people who deliberately select a "belief" system which demands they campaign for the removal of the rights of other free citizens.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Because your not persecuted!! You did not have your civil rights removed. Does that answer your question yet?

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

Are the Mormons being persecuted? Dammit - when did I miss the proposition on the ballot to remove THEIR rights?

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Mormons didnt have their civil rights removed. They are the persecutors that's what you Mormons have been consistently brainwashed into believing is that it's okay for a church to take political actions that remove a minority groups civil rights and it's not okay.

And just because it's not okay with a number of the population, does not mean you are "persecuted".

When your rights are removed you can play this victim role until then I really think you need to make the connection between what's real and what is fantasy propaganda put out by your church. And, all your ranting about let's go to the LDS site and see if they say their bigots. people aren't as dumb as you Mormons, look at your theologies someone could sell you people your own cars! (maybe that shoule be the auto bailout) because you people are gullible! Martin Luther King if he were alive today would be protesting Prop 8 you idiot!

Malcolm · 11 months ago

The ad in today's NYTimes was horrifying and absurd only if you recognized what it was about. My husband, who is entirely computer illiterate and gets the front section of the Times first, handed me the page saying what the **** is this supposed to be about? He was entirely clueless, and he's not entirely clueless about most things. I was able to enlighten him, but my guess is that his puzzlement was shared by many. After all, the ad talked about violence. Violence generally shows up in the papers, and none has showed up on anything the ad might have been about.

Chino_Blanco · 11 months ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sDDHwV4n20

Chris B in SF · 11 months ago

I agree with RandomMormonGuy below there: anger is justifiable, for a variety of reasons, but attacking makes it hard to find common ground, and is most decidedly not WJWD (not the anger part per se, just the use of attack as an expression of it). And I do really appreciate there are people like this out there:

http://mormonsformarriage.com/

Even so, I have a very difficult time with the “you guys lost the vote get over it” argument. This issue should NEVER have been put to a vote in the first place. This is not about sacrament. I respect that many different religions have their traditions about marriage as a sacrament, or something equivalent. They should have the right to decide what works for the church within those traditions. If a church does not want to acknowledge my love for my partner, I do not want to get married in that church anyway. This is not about anyone’s sacrament, much as some would like that point to frame the issue. In this society, marriage, from a government standpoint, is a civil contract with rights and privileges that are not rooted in a requirement that procreation takes place. Why should my dear friends, a gay couple, who got married at San Francisco City Hall on their 20th anniversary in September, be treated under the law differently than couple X who gets drunk and decides to have Elvis marry them in Vegas? If anything, I would find my friends more deserving of respect and equal protection under the law—but I would respect the law saying the drunk couple gets equal protection, much as I might raise my eyebrows about their choices.

A letter that I read in the NYT in the days after the Prop 8 vote included a statement that said something to the effect of: “I will always find homosexuality and gay people morally offensive, nothing will change that.” What I find morally offensive is that some people deign to believe that they know how love should look for someone else. It’s easy to go to name calling and blaming—or just to feel like it rubs your grain the wrong way. It’s far harder to be magnanimous and realize that, even if it doesn’t look like what you want for you or yours, don’t deny it to someone else. It’s far harder to be reflective about what YOU find repugnant and to honor your feelings, but leave your fellow man to choose his or her own path. Quite frankly, I believe that my right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness should include my ability to love how it works for me and mine. Selectively choosing your moral talking points from the bible does not overrule the fact that if God is anything, God is love. It will eventually be appreciated to an ever-greater extent in society that all of us are brothers and sisters, and all of us have our place and bring value to our communities in our own ways. Supporting and celebrating love, wherever it takes root, is an expression of good and a boon to the common good, in my opinion.

RandomMormonGuy · 11 months ago

I have a lesbian aunt that has lived with her partner for 15+ years and I love both of them. I think many people hear that I'm against gay marriage and automatically think that means I hate all gays. I don't I try to love everyone but as you say we won't always agree.

I personally think that it is a sin as do many of my Christian brothers. I don't personally care if 2 gay guys get married or not but I do worry about the long term ramifications. If it is legalized does that mean a gay couple can sue my church if my church refuses to marry them? If it is legal does that mean my kids will be taught that it is normal?

Those are some of the concerns I have and some of the reasons I am against it.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

You're not a very good nephew are you?. This is not about the sacrement. It's about legal protection, and unless we have access to CIVIL marriage, we do not have equal protection.

RandomMormonGuy · 11 months ago

I guess I'm not very familiar with the issue, what rights do you not get with a civil union that you would have with a marriage? (I'm not trying to pick a fight I really want to understand)

Steve_in_CNJ · 11 months ago

somehow i don't believe you're trying to understand anything. you began by saying your church is going to get sued for not doing marriages. you know better. so why say that? it's incendiary and dishonest. and "civil unions" is a separate-but-equal insult to gay couples, no better than separate bathrooms for coloreds. in NJ, gay couples are constantly in court trying to explain to businesses and state agencies that they are equal. if they have to go to court to prove they're equal, they are not equal.

RandonMormonGuy · 11 months ago

Those are the things I've heard, like I said, I don't live in CA so I didn't really follow the issue. And for those of you wondering, I heard those things from Rush Limbaugh, not my church leaders.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

If you don't "follow" the US Constitution then you should limit your blogs to like minded people such as LDS sites and not to the general American public who does understand the issue.

Futhermore, I believe you all do understand it it's just that you abhor the idea that you are not able to force your religious beliefs into leglislation because of the Constitution hence; "I don't get it." argument. Start getting it. It's not that hard to understand.

Rush Limbaugh is possibly another douche who "doesn't get it." If you don't get it, look up US Constitution on your browser and try your very hardest to follow.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

The federal government does not recognize same-sex unions. That's around eleven-hundred rights. Less than twenty states give us any recognition. Even if we got civil unions with all of the rights of marriage, the term "civil union" does not have the same impact. This can lead to problems with inheritance and hospital visitation. You can find the horror stories on LAMBDA's website, and those aren't isolated incidents. The whole marriage vs. civil issue runs into the problem of "seperate but equal," a phrase shown time and again to be an oxymoron. Now I have a question for you, why should we settle for less?

Queer Canuck · 11 months ago

You want civil unions in lieu of marriage for same-sex couples, and then by your own admission you tell us you don't know the difference between them. Sad.
.

Queer Canuck · 11 months ago

I believe that churches should be completely free to marry, or refuse to marry, whomever they choose. In fact, hasn't that always been the case? Catholic churches regularly refuse to marry divorced people. Orthodox rabbis regularly refuse to marry couples where one is not a Jew. Why should it be any different with gays? I don't see any risk of lawsuits here. I have no problem if a church refuses, on religious grounds, to marry a same-sex couple. Churches can make their own rules for their own members.

This is why civil (as opposed to religious) marriage is vital, and why I support it for same-sex couples. It is a completely different issue. It is for those who wish to marry without involving any religious entity.

Same-sex couples should have the right to civil marriage. Individual religions should have the right to decide whether or not they wish to offer religious marriage to same-sex couples.
.

JamesR · 11 months ago

WTF? " If it is legalized does that mean a gay couple can sue my church if my church refuses to marry them?" Seriously? Please.

Catholics don't marry non-Catholics. Nor would an orthodox Rabbi marry non-Jews. That could be considered racism or discrimination if Churches were considered PART OF THE STATE, or public - which this current marriage debacle is really all about. You want to influence the State and become endorsed by the State - then indeed ultimately one day the State would have an interest in telling you what to do. Do the math. You seem to have a fundamentally flawed understanding of Church-State history and relations and America if you really seriously entertain that richly stupid Right Wing 'talking point' more plainly known as a bald faced stupid lie fed to those who are too dim to closely examine it before passing it on to friends like a virus in an E-Mail.

If you want your Church to be private and to enjoy the privelages of being private, like the freedom to discriminate, then get out of the legislating for others arena, like now. Churches can discriminate, as they are private. Civil Rights protections and guarantees apply to public entities.

If you don't want a gay marriage then don't have one. Since you are against your aunt getting one, and you love her, and she loves you back, then why don't you continue this discussion with her and take a long hard listen instead of typing your brave opinions honestly on an anonymous blog to strangers. ?

So Left I'm Right · 11 months ago

You really need to learn a lot. Start with the following. As opposed to the Bible or the Book of Morons, this is actually a statement that has legal relevance in our country:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

That's from the Constitution. Perhaps you've heard of it? Did you take 8th grade civics? Every religious person needs to start to understand that just because they consider something a sin, they don’t get to make it illegal! Here’s a newsflash: there are many things that are legal that might be considered by some or even many people to be immoral. There are actually quite a few things that are illegal that one could make a moral argument should be legal. However, there is no Constitutional right not to be offended. I find the Mormon religion highly offensive. So what? I don’t want to make it illegal, or legally persecute any of its members (although given its actions, the tax status should be in play, in my opinion). Mormons, Constitutionally, get to continue to hate gays, show up at my door and get it slammed in their faces, worship in any way they choose. You can continue to run your families and your churches as you see fit, and call whatever you want a sin…eating shellfish, drinking booze, it doesn’t matter.

The mind-boggling thing about the Prop 8 initiative is the insanity behind the concept that you can put existing civil rights up for popular vote. So what are we supposed to do now? Run a relentless campaign to re-legalize the Constitutionality of gay marriage the next round? Then what? Can another deceptive campaign come around in the future, fuelled once again by outside religious influences, and reject gay marriage again? Does it really make any sense to potentially cycle between legitimized and delegitimized marriage status? Can you imagine if your bizarre religion was up for a vote on whether it could exist? In certain states, I can assure you it would be voted down.

But there’s the rub. Homosexuality isn’t a “belief system” so it makes no sense to have this conversation in the first place from a legal point of view. What we need in this country is civil marriage, full stop. If you wish to have a religious ceremony, knock yourself out. Let civil marriage be equivalently defined for all who wish it, and let churches sort out their own rules for marriage. Nothing could be of any less importance to me as to how you wish to define marriage. Because you see, if I cared about “God’s” opinion, I can get married to my partner in Her eyes right now. There are plenty of churches who will marry us. However, what matters in civil society is whether the state recognizes the rights and privileges that come with “marriage”. Call it a marriage, call it a union, I don’t care. But make it the same for every citizen of the United States, and let the Morons, the Catholicks, the Jews, atheists, fags and dykes sort out for themselves how they will recognize their unions spiritually. Because your belief about me, and my belief about you, should have no impact on our legal rights as US citizens.

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

Well, didn't you consciously CHOOSE to believe in persecuting the aunt you love and her wife? Just as you consciously chose to embrace a "religious" belief that demanded it's members actively campaign to dissolve her rights in a state?

I don't care what you personally believe as long as you apply it only to your personal life. After all, it was YOUR choice to believe it - why demand that others become privy and coerced into living their lives according to YOUR choice? If that is such a problem, choose something else. It's a lot easier to do than asking the gays (like your church attempts to do, formerly by electric shock treatment) to become straight.

I'm sorry, but I cannot even fathom any reasonable person belonging to your Church.

Len · 11 months ago

Don't get me wrong... I am not in any way condoning the actions of the Mormon Church. But I do have a question. Do you honestly believe they can baptize you into their faith against your will after you are dead?

red_dwarf · 11 months ago

I was going to type something really gross but decided against it.

Sure Len. No problems. Who in the hell is gonna object once your dead?

Jeffrey · 11 months ago

Here's the thing. These are the people who:

attacked us

have been attacking us for decades

stripped us of our civil rights

lied and cheated to achieve their ends

dictated from their pulpits that their congregations should spend as much money as possible to persuade others that we are less than fully human


Why on earth would we let THEM tell us how to respond??????

daeros · 11 months ago

man am i ever going to do some mormon bashing...

Nylund · 11 months ago

The ad says nothing about wanting to make anything "illegal".

To quote the ad:

"Let's be clear: even the crudest anti-religious propaganda isn't illegal, and may not be constitutionally outlawed. But it's nevertheless wrong."

I do not agree with the actions of the LDS on this issue at all and, in general, find much of the LDS creepy and weird. I wish to God they'd stay out of the affairs of Californians and I strongly believe they broke some election laws with prop 8. We can win this fight, but lets at least be the honest side. Yet, as much as I oppose them, I can't buy the line that they are trying to take legal steps to outlaw the ability of their critics to say anything.

You could have written a post with just as much force without accusing them of doing something they didn't. I think they DID break election laws and they deny that in the ad. Attack that. Counter the allegation that violence is being used against them, but don't make up phony allegations. They are definitely trying to make ONE thing illegal and its not criticism, its gay marriage. Lets work on stopping that legal attack before making up other ones.

RandomMormonGuy · 11 months ago

Wise words, I wish more people were as clear headed as you. If you disagree with my church that's fine, we can debate that. But calling us bigots and throwing out false accusations doesn't do any good.

shanobama · 11 months ago

But you are bigoted toward gay people. Thats a fact, right?
Gays have always been, and always will be about 10% of any human population, anywhere on earth.

You think gay people should not have the same right to their pursuit of happiness in America.
That is not only bigoted but anti-American as well.

JamesR · 11 months ago

You're free to believe anything you want, but, er, until 1970 or so until a revelation from one of your living prophets you considered black folk to be so because they bore the mark of Cain and were not equal in in fact would be your slaves and or servants and certainly inferior in the afterlife too... Today we call that, um - what's the word we use - um, wait for it...

I think it's "bigotry."

Thirty years form now what might folk call the current situation? You go ahead and wait for your leaders' revelations. I demand my rights NOW and that your religion get and stay the hell AWAY from civil rights protections. We live in the USA, not the MSA.

So Left I'm Right · 11 months ago

Easy there, tiger. This site gets a bit too shrill far too often, and sometimes it takes the comments to reel it back in. And let's be clear, I don't know you, I don't know what your beliefs on the issue are, so I’m not going to call you a bigot. But the concerted actions by the Mormon Church (and a diverse host of others) are extreme bigotry. Sorry man, that's simply a fact. Not every Moron agrees, not every Moron is a bigot, but the clear and definitive actions by the "Church" and a great number of its members are totally unacceptable in a secular, democratic society. Like it or not, that’s what America is, despite the best efforts of Christofascists to change us into their own version of Iran. And we will continue to say so, we will continue to protest, we will continue to punish in any legal way the people who have made a despicable effort to repeal existing civil rights. I want you to have full freedom to practice a religion I find ludicrous and offensive, because what I think should have absolutely no impact on your ability to live your life according to pretty much any belief system you want (unless it involves killing people or fucking kids). You can marry 3 wives, have way too many kids, hate me for being gay. Who cares? Your opinion matters not to me, as mine should not to you. When you come after my hard (and barely) earned civil rights, you are in for a fight.

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

When their "religious" belief dictates my constitutional rights, their "freedom" ends.

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

I believe members of your Church are still allowed to marry and be recognized by your state. Until you give up that right and walk in our shoes, there isn't much to discuss now, is there? You keep thinking there is something reasonable about the behavior of the LDS in this situation. There isn't. It was tyranny in its purest form, and this heinous ad just piles on the crap.

One need not have to remind you that you willfully chose a "religious" belief which required its members to actively campaign to remove the constitutional rights of other Americans based on that chosen "religious" belief. That isn't a false accusation - that is the truth.

usagi · 11 months ago

But you are a bigot. To say nothing of an egotist since you apparently think your religion believing that same-sex couples should not marry should be enshrined in law, thereby preventing other religious people who celebrate same-sex marriages from practicing their religion freely (I went to a lovely Lutheran ceremony a few weeks before the election).
I have no interest in discussing your religion. I want it out of my life completely. I don't like associating with bigots who marry underage girls, sometimes several of them (oh yes, that's just the "bad apples"--pity you can't keep a shorter leash on those child-abusing freaks).

Buzzard · 11 months ago

No one wants to take away anyones free speech. Say whatever you want. What LDS and other religious folks are upset about is vandalism, physical threats and intimidation, and economic coercion, the blacklisting of anyone who had the temerity to donate money to prop 8 or failed to fall in line with your viewpoint. Funny, I thought liberals railed against McCarthism, but I guess that only applies to right-wing blacklists.
The bottom line is, does gay=black/hispanic/asian? If it did, the whole civil rights argument would carry more weight. But many religous and even a few non-religous people take the stand that while race and ethnicity is something you are born with, sexual orientation, whatever your inborn preferences might be, is something you do. In other words, you are not fully gay until you have performed a sex act
You might disagree, and go ahead and say so. But someone holding a morally based principle does not automatically make them a bigot, IMHO.

Queer Canuck · 11 months ago

Sexual orientation is just that -- an orientation. It is not an act. I was "fully gay" before I performed any sex act. If you ask pretty much any gay person, they will say the same. I hope you can accept that. If not, you're basically calling us all liars.
.

Brad · 11 months ago

I knew these homos (not gay) from work 20 years past who were shocked when I informed them that it was the desire and not the act that indicated homosexuality, reserving the term `gay' for individuals who have come to acceptance and relative peace with their homosexual orientation.)

Steve_in_CNJ · 11 months ago

yeah, like i don't have a problem with blacks. i just don't like what they DO. like having sex with black skin on. ew.

Brad · 11 months ago

I'll assume you reach this conclusion from a morally based principle known as "The Yuck Factor." I can't so easily call you a bigot because of that. It would be unfair to Yuckies in general.;)

JamesR · 11 months ago

Not patronizing individuals and businesses so they don't use the money they get from us to fuck us, in the bad way, is called CAPITALISM bucko. Free market + the free market of ideas. Even that psycho bitch patron saint of Neoconanity 'Ayn Rand' would grudgingly have to approve. Boycotting and public Shaming are American traditions. It is not the same as "blacklisting" no matter how many liars and fools say so.

And following your reasoning, would somebody be NOT stupid if they just thought about posting something stupid but didn't actually post it? Talk amongst yourself.

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

Excuse me? Religion is something you aren't born with - it is generally spread through recruitment, coercion, and indoctrination. Not very democratic ideals, is it?
There is nothing "morally" based about their position at all. Their position is one of coercion, involuntary servitude of non-members, removal of the constitutional rights of all those they SELECT to persecute and arbitrary interpretation of scripture based on their own pocketbooks and personal insecurities. Enough of this shit.
What LDS and other religious folks are "upset" about is that we are no longer going to stand by while they campaign in state after state to remove our constitutional rights as free citizens. They haven't been "intimidated" in the least - not beyond their own inherent fear-based religious paranoia. And public records of donations are not "blacklists" - they are public records. If they are so damned proud of their manufactured, chosen "faith" they wouldn't mind being denied a little money from the very people they persecute, would they?

This isn't some little "disagreement" with some nutcase church. These laws are about our lives and our freedom to worship, associate and make contracts with our government equally without the interference of someone else's "church." Stop acting like ordering a campaign to destroy 18,000 families is some kind of little disagreement over what to have for dinner. When the Mormons and the Catholics and the evangelicals agree to have their own families dissolved at the wishes of total strangers, you can talk about their right to "have a different point of view." Until then, they are only practicing a religious form of tyranny and the issue is about religious coercion, deception, and manipulation of the rights of free Americans through the ballot box.

foxy · 11 months ago

You so nailed it! The Lord be praised. "Let my children go..." The (gay people) are the chosen people....

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Yes buzzard it does! gay= a classified minority group according the US government. And, the whole civil rights movement that you claim has no weight at all in this country where a civil war was fought over abolition of slavery is completely idiotic at best. A moral principle makes someone a bigot when that principle calls for the removal of a classified minority groups civil rights. Marriage was defined as a fundamental civil right in the constitution.

So excuse me, how are you not a bigot again? Would you like to explain the iterracial marriage position that the LDS church took back in the 70's ya know, the whole you have no soul because your marked with Cain theory.

Please answer the questions, enquiring minds would like to know....

athenap · 11 months ago

"In other words, you are not fully gay until you have performed a sex act "
So...you're not fully hetero until you've performed a sex act, either? Then how do you know you're het, huh? How do you know you're not gay? And does sex with a person of the opposite gender *after* sex with a person of the same gender "cancel out" the gay, or do you, like, have to keep a running tab and tally up at the end of the week?

And gosh, it's a sad, sad thing that the Mormon church is upset about potential vandalism, threats, intimidation and economic coercion. Their wallets must be trembling in fear. Good thing they don't have to worry about oh, say, somebody bombing one of their local hangouts while they're trying to relax with a <strikethrough>cold beer</strikethrough> <strikethrough>diet coke</strikethrough> <strikethrough>iced coffee</strikethrough> lemonade. Or maybe their leaders are a little bit relieved to know that they can work hard at typing up memos to ally with the Catholic church and drum up both support and a scapegoat behind which to hide without worrying about being stabbed in the face with a machete. And gosh, it would be a pretty traumatic thing if those polite young people in their white dress shirts and neckties couldn't approach a neighborhood house to spread their message without wondering if they'd be robbed, pistol-whipped, tortured, tied to a fence, and then left to die. 'Cause yeah, the Mormons, they're having it a bit rough right now, aren't they? My heart fscking bleeds for 'em, really, it does. But sorry, my wallet won't open until they quit busting up people's marriages.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

John, the Mormons aren't actually trying to make our protests illegal. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending them, but distorting these stories in the titles like you've been doing is costing us credibility.

psu2009 · 11 months ago

MORMOMS ARE NOT CHRISTIANS, DON'T PUT THEM IN THIS CATEGORY. CALL THEM FOR WHAT THEY ARE; A CULT

Steve_in_CNJ · 11 months ago

very fine line there. christianity is an old cult, mormonism is a new one.

sammyp · 11 months ago

here here

Ben Dover · 11 months ago

The Mormon Cult is just the latest unhinged group attempting to identify a group and deny them equality.

This shit always begins exactly like this. First they don't want certain groups around children (CA Prop 6), then no equal access to equality, then no jobs, no homes. Then that group is found to be a societal problem, and then someone has to develop and craft a final solution to the problem.

The Mormon Cult has historically been an unwelcoming, murderous cult. Their prejudice, lack of morals and extreme beliefs have lead them to commit murder in the 1857 High Mountain Meadows Massacre.

The Mormon Cult's attack on other groups is well documented. Prop 8 was just their opening salvo. This ad demonstrates how far they are willing to go to exterminate the rights of others.

Work against the Mormon Cult at each and every turn.

gs · 11 months ago

I suggest we begin baptizing newborn Mormons in the name of the devil. Or maybe we just just wait for them to die and THEN do it. Having their souls sold into infernal bondage seems like a just reward for the bastards.

So Left I'm Right · 11 months ago

Yes, I agree. I'm going to get a list of obits from the Salt Lake paper and start initiating recently dead Mormons posthumously into the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, then send a certificate to their local Moron Temple to let them know.

The insanity and arrogance behind the concept that you can involuntarily baptize someone else, particularly after that person is dead, is possibly the most ludicrous thing I have ever heard. The funny thing is, they would probably be up in arms about a Flying Spaghetti stunt, even though it would be meaningless beyond the ability of any sentient being to understand as a big, fat joke.

shell · 11 months ago

Good post! And I hope these acts are committed. Sane people should give them a taste of their own medicine.

You baptize MY dead relatives? I'll baptize yours. (And The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster is a good name.)

Surely Mormons can understand that, can't they? If not, then stop doing it!

Gary SF · 11 months ago

Well, I feel 'bashed' by the Mormon church. While I would never resort to violence or vandalism, I wouldn't blame anyone if they did. Enough is enough. The Mormons are acting as if this is the FIRST time they have campaigned against gays. They are wrong. It is the last time.

Hmmmm · 11 months ago

Wow, this is laughable. Honestly, talk about the pot calling the kettle black. So mormons are bigots, what does that make you? You all talk like you know so much about our religion, but I am astonished at what I am reading. Maybe do a little research by yourselves, and not on some Ex-mo site (and certainly not on a site like this). Jesus had 3 wives and his mother? Wow... that is just... weird, and so false. Joseph Smith just made up all those things? Ok. Right. What about all the histories that have been written? What about the extermination order sent out by Gov. Boggs? Just because you left the church and are still bitter doesn't mean you should spread lies about it. Mormons are NOT fundies and do NOT have 10+ wives. That's the FLDS, big huge crazy difference. While we do baptisms for the dead, it would never be forced on them... what kind of religion would do that? We believe that in the after life, the people have the choice to accept or not... just like here on Earth. What's so hateful about that?(And, despite what you have read on this blog, our church does work with the Jews about baptizing the dead). Mountain Meadows Massacre? Do more research. And not just one-sided. Oh what's wrong... you're not hearing what you want to hear? That the Mormons are a mean and hateful people? Sad.

I am honestly trying to understand your train of thought... even if the Mormon people (not the Church itself... the members... do you really think our church would make that kind of mistake? Uhhh no... we've been in operation a long time, how many PR people do you think we have?) did donate 50% (which I have only seen ONE study that suggests so, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here), opponents to Proposition 8 still raised more money. So obviously it wasn't the money that won it. And I would like to see what kind of "lies and deception" the ads that you are blaming said... because I saw a pretty awful ad that had "Mormon missionaries" in it that was just pure lies. So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt again here, and say both sides had it. At the end of the day, people voted their conscience, not what they were told to do. Why blame the money? (and I don't think this argument holds a grain of salt, anyway) Studies have shown that 70% of black people voted YES, and a major percentage of Hispanic Catholics... these are people that VOTED, the people who actually MADE IT HAPPEN. Why not be mad at them? Oh, right... Mormons make an easy target. Can't go after blacks or hispanics. I gotcha.

We are not the only religion that believes that the act of homosexuality is a sin. It's a fact. Most (if not all) Christians believe that. It is our (everyone's) right and duty to vote our conscience. "Love the sinner hate the sin" is a completely viable saying. In my mind, it is no different than loving my alcoholic brother, but hating the alcohol. Believe me, it is possible. I also have a sister in law who is lesbian and I maintain a perfectly healthy loving relationship with her. I know where she stands, she knows where I stand, there is mutual respect and understanding there. Of course you can disagree with me. That's called free agency. As much as you say we are "forcing our religion" on you... that is just not true. California proved that the majority of people think the same way. It is not one religion that passed this Proposition, I don't understand how you can say that with a clear conscience. Talk about being bigots.

Gary SF · 11 months ago

No, you are not the only religion that believes that we are sinners. But you are the one we are targeting, and it gonna be fun, because payback is a bitch. Oh, and if polygamy is so NON Mormon, how come 40,000 still live in polygamous relationships and the Mormon-controlled government of Utah does not lift a finger to enforce the law? Could it be that Bring-em Young set an example for both polygamy, incest and child molestation that is ingrained in your beliefs? Go fuck yourself or one of your wife-nieces, pervert. Oh, and if there is a God, he hates you too.

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

Since we know these people chose a "religious" belief with full knowledge that it advocated the persecution of other Americans, shouldn't he just choose another religion? '

I mean, we all know that no one has to be a Mormon and live a lifestyle with their nose constantly sniffing around for an opportunity to remove someone else's rights.

RandonMormonGuy · 11 months ago

That's funny because the word gay used to mean happy and you are definitely not a happy person. I can understand though, you're living a life of sin and you won't be happy until you give it up. So go ahead and keep blaming all of your problems on other people or in this case the Mormons. Have a nice life loser.

Gary SF · 11 months ago

I'm not blaming all of my problems on other people. I'm blaming the LDS church for perpetuating homophobia and hatred. Plain and simple. Good luck in that unemployment line. As for the sin thingy, nothing I have ever done can compare with the incest and polygamy committed by your church's founders. I'm guessing that since many of the child-niece-brides were unwilling brides, rape is probably part of your religious heritage too. Oh, I forgot about the racism. The list is endless.

Mike_in_the_Tundra · 11 months ago

I agree that it is your right and duty to vote your conscience. Is it also your right and duty to use your vast resources to mislead others to vote the way you want them to? A lot of the stuff that was said to support Prop 8 was nothing less than bearing false witness. Mormon money paid for that information to be circulated among the population.

Why won't Mormons say the Nicene Creed? In otherwords, do Mormons consider Jesus to be a created being?

Steve_in_CNJ · 11 months ago

okay can we all agree that the funniest part of this is "the act of homosexuality"?

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

Yes, let's talk about being bigots. We know enough about your "religion" to know that it has supported torturing members of my community in order to "help" people adhere to your "principles."

How about the gays just open some reeducation camps outside the Mormon temples, slap up some billboards attacking their beliefs across the country, and launch a campaign to deprive them of their constitutional rights? Surely the LDS would understand the concept - after all, we'd just be practicing THEIR "religion."

Your entire church is about forcing religion - you don't birth new membership - you recruit.

Gindy · 11 months ago

You have read only the thing YOUR "church" wants you to read. You are not allowed to read anything else contrary to your beliefs. If you do and another of your co-religious finds out about it, you will be hauled before your bishop and disciplined. You need to pull your head out of the happy valley and maybe do some research into the other parts of your religion you aren't allowed to know.
No Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody (don't bother to try and find a copy in the Utah PUBLIC libraries, they are checked out and promptly LOST)
and One Nation Under Gods. Oh and do not ever get caught reading either one of these...

Lillith · 11 months ago

Fawn Brody, for those who aren't that aware of who she is, was the neice of a President of the LDS Church. She began her work on No Man Knows My Name, with the intention of "proving" that Joseph Smith was indeed God's true Prophet on earth. Her historical research, however, proved otherwise. She was promptly excommunicated after publishing the book. There is another "forbidden to Mormons" book I'd like to add, Gindy. It's "Secret Ceremonies" and was written by a former LDS woman. It explores and exposes the secret "Temple sealings" of marriages "for time and all eternity," a basic tenent which must be followed (Temple marriage) in order to gain admittance to the higher levels of the Mormon's multi-layered heavens. I've often wondered about the MANDATORY marriage business and what Mormons believe happens to those who remain unmarried, and therefore "unsealed" and unable to enter heaven : But the thing that truly bothers me is that for a woman to enter the Mormon heaven she MUST have a Mormon husband, who knows her "secret name" in order for her to get into heaven, otherwise she can't get in, period. Where's the love in that? Are women less of a Child of God than men? Same goes for mandatory marriage, and the common cult belief that Mormons and only Mormons are "God's Chosen People?" According to them even the Jews are outsiders and "goys." Sheeze!

One thing for sure, I'm absolutely delighted to see some of these beliefs of the LDS cult exposed. As an Episcopal woman, I was married to a Mormon man for 20 years. Before we were marrried I was told the big lie that "Mormons are tolerant of other peoples' religions." That's just plain bunk, as I found out in an attack letter denouncing my faith was sent to me just two short weeks after my marriage to my new, "tolerant" husband's bother, who was serving his tour as a missionary.for the cult.

As to the Mormons involvement in defeating Proposition 8 in California...Shame on them!
The same Jesus Christ named in their own designation for the title of their cult said that the two greatest laws were to love God, and to love our neighbor as we love ourself. I don't believe there is any mention of not loving your neighbor if they happen to be of a different, race, sexual orientation, or religion, and there is certainly no scriptural admonishment to spend money persecuting your neighbor's rights to equal treatment under the law either. Religious cults and Churches should focus on their own family and stop trying to mix Church and State.

Hmmmm · 11 months ago

That is fine and dandy to read those books... I also know that Hugh Nibley's daughter has been very outspoken about how the Mormon church is not true. Great. Read those books... but if you want to truly have an informed opinion about the LDS church, it would be hypocritical of you not to read and research other books put out by our Church leaders, or even just go and surf www.lds.org. The problem is with many anti-mormons, they only read/hear what they want to. Many of these "facts" written in the anti crap have been either been rebutted or have been proven false.

I really wonder if your story is true. You were married to a Mormon man for 20 years... but apparently don't understand the very basics of the religion. There are 3 degrees of heaven, the highest (which I assume is what you are talking about) a man and a woman must be married for time and all eternity to enter. Not a single woman OR a single man can enter without the other. You have that confused. I also don't understand where all the "damned to hell" talk is coming from. We believe that everyone will go to heaven. Yup, even gays. We believe we are ALL God's children, thus, making us brothers and sisters. DO. THE. RESEARCH. Where's the hate?

"Goys"? I have never once heard that word. It is certainly not doctrine, and if you honestly believe that the church as a whole hates outsiders... then you are sorely mistaken. Look into it a little bit further. Have you even heard of Deseret Industries, the thrift store? Or our welfare program? Who do you think was the first people to show up to help with the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina? Time and time again, the LDS church has shown that we are a loving people... but that all gets brushed under the rug because people hear what they want to hear.

Honestly, I wonder if many of you have us confused with the FLDS. They are the communities in Utah that are living the polygamous lives. It is illegal, and should be dealt with accordingly.

As far as the "cult" talk... if the Mormon church is a cult, then by definition, all churches should be said to be the same thing. We can read whatever we want. We can have our own opinions. If at times we ever feel like our testimony is failing, we can leave the Church and never come back. *gasp* We have free agency. Do any of you personally know a Mormon? I was born and raised in the church. I have 2 brothers that have decided the church is not for them. They have never faced any penalties with the church. To insinuate that people don't have their free agency in our church and are forced to believe what we do is absolutely ludicrous. It is not the brainwashing cult that people are making it out to be. If you just do a little unbiased research, you would know. But, I am talking to deaf ears here, aren't I. You already have your minds made up that it's a hateful cult.

And again, I say, show me the deceiving and lying ads that the "Mormons" put out.... I hear it over and over again... and have yet to see any proof. This is the main reason why you are blaming the LDS church (I guess... the whole thing still doesn't make sense, but from what I can understand of the hate speech going on on this forum, that is what I see the most). Talk about losing your credibility.

Honestly, get informed. You say you are, but from what I am reading it's just absolute hogwash. Show me the hate that is being spewed from the church.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

How about the $20 million they gave to fund the lie filled ads that led to the removal of our rights?

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Lying and decieving ads put out with the mormons money.

1. that the church will be forced to recognize gay marriage and perform gay marriages in their churches.

2. that the schools will start preaching and converting school age children to homosexuality.

3. that homosexuals are criminals becuase they "choose" to be homosexual therefore; they should have restricted rights.

Maybe you should get informed...

By the way, I have read the Book of Mormon and know it to be false. It's not backed up by genetic testing that we have available today. There is no Jew DNA that exists at all in American Indians, so the assertion that Native Americans are really Jewish, has been scientifically proven to be false. Just like many things that have been scientifically proven false in religious theology, for example: the sun does not revolve around the earth, people did not exist at the same time of dinasaurs, the first man came from Africa and Evolution is a proven fact. Yeah, you get informed... try a 3rd grade class to begin with...

Hmmmm · 11 months ago

Advertising messages for the Yes on 8 campaign are based on case law and real-life situations. Every Yes on 8 claim is supported. Hello... have you not watched what happened in Massachusetts?

The Church did not violate the principal of separation of church and state. This principle is derived from the First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The phrase "separation of church and state", which does not appear in the Constitution itself, is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson, although it has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court in recent years. The LDS Church is under no obligation to refrain from participating in the political process, to the extent permitted by law. U.S. election law is very clear that Churches may not endorse candidates, but may support issues. The Church has always been very careful on this matter and occasionally (not often) chooses to support causes that it feels to be of a moral nature.

And are you kidding me about the FLDS? Who is their prophet? Uhm, ever heard of Warren Jeffs? The guy who's sitting in the big house right now? They do believe in LDS prophets from Joseph Smith up until John Taylor... but they certainly don't believe in them now. It's a totally different organization who's beliefs may have started the same, but have definitely evolved . Don't even try to debate this. It's ridiculous.

I don't care if you "know the Book of Mormon to be false" or not. Hooray for you! Your claims are ridiculous, and so are your accusations against the church. Before calling me an ignorant bigot try looking really hard at some of your statements. Wow. If you want to find some "theories" or "ideas" that proves something else (especially anything to do with religion) wrong, it's not too hard to find. The truth will always be there, though. Opposition in all things. High five!

gwyneth · 11 months ago

You can not deny that it is the LDS religion who practiced polygamy. It a historical fact. It doesn't matter that you don't anymore because you were forced not to in the 1800's to be recognized as a statehood. smarty pants, it's a wonder that you people don't know the history of your own church!

Advertising messages for the yes on 8 claim are funded by the fascist Mormon Church and other fascist religious sects hoping to be able to do just what your hoping to do which is to convince the American public that there was really no such thing as separation of church and state. Fat chance!! We had a civil war here, in case you didn't learn that in school either... Try quoting something or anything for that matter that wasn't published by your church. There's a reason why it was written into the First Amendment of the Constitution of this Country. Duh! That is the underlying purpose of the Amendment. Do you not understand english? It really makes me wonder how something can get so twisted around so that someone un-educated and barely literate like yourself can claim that us running the USA like Iran was the tenent of the amendment why do you think Thomas Jefferson cited it??? I guess he's wrong and Joseph Smith is right then. The good thing about it is, that the American people aren't as gullible as the Mormons and we don't buy your line of crap.

And I quote: "The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that expressly prohibits the United States Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion". But according to you this has nothing to do with the seperation of church and State. Go back to school, seriously.

You're embarrassing yourself.

Yes I have heard of Warren Jeffs and I know about the faction that your trying to blame your religions beginnings off on but you never wipe the truth from the history books. Joseph Smith started the LDS church -- not the FLDS church -- and he was polygamist. I'd like to know where you think I can't debate you so far I've slammed every one of your reasons for being a bigot and expecting to be accepted by a FREE society for Equal rights is ridiculous. I can debate you any day, all day long! The next comment from you will be all about how you don't get the US Constitution and it will be almost completely incoherent, but go ahead -- make my day.

The truth will always be there no matter how much you try to deny your church's history!!!

Hmmmm · 11 months ago

LOL. I am embarrassing myself? Hardly. I would like to know when I have ever denied my church's past. I never once said Joseph Smith was not polygamous. He was (didn't start out that way, though), but I'm sure you don't know or even want to understand the whole history of it. I was merely trying to point out that it's simply not true by accusing us of being polygamists in the here and now. That is the FLDS, they still practice polygamy, we don't. Plain and simple. But, you read what you want to read.

And I don't even know what your whole paragraph about separation of church and state meant. Did you really read my paragraph about it? I don't think so. Exactly what has the LDS church violated? According to your own post, nothing. Your whole paragraph did not make sense! Holy illiterate.

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that expressly prohibits the United States Congress from making laws respecting an establishment of religion,(... don't forget) OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXERCISE THEREOF.

You don't make sense!! And I'm done.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

The Mormons violated peoples right to live without being dictated by a religion they don't follow, and a RELIGIOUS notion was enshrined into CIVIL law. I'd say that's a pretty obvious violation.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Just as I suspected, you don't get the paragraph about the US Constitution - what a surprise! Yes, it means that you can practice being a bigot but it prohibits you from legislating that into law. I don't know how it can be made any clearer to you.

And, again as I suspected you can not deny the history of your church. That's absolutely right the LDS were polygamist until the US Government told them that they had to abandon the practice in order to be accepted as a State of the Union. Seeing as how the Church was forced to change this child molesting practice, it holds no weight that you don't do it any longer. Because if you did, you'd be in jail.

Let me make this clear to you, the LDS Church wants to take steps to legislate (make things illegal) that ultimately took CIVIL RIGHTS away from CLASSIFIED MINORITY GROUPS.

But, I am sure that you still don't understand plain English.

RitornaVincitor · 11 months ago

It's amazing that anyone would marry a psycho like Joseph Smith in the first place. The fact that he had numerous wives is proof that miracles do exist.

RitornaVincitor · 11 months ago

Personally I hope the LDS does not abandon their political ambitions, just as I hope the so called Christian Right continues to control the Republican Party. It's made ridiculing religion not only socially acceptable, but downright fun!

RitornaVincitor · 11 months ago

Isn't it terrible that the Mormons are being openly ridiculed for their beliefs, simply because they financed a ballot measure that would take away rights from people they felt didn't deserve those rights? Any group should have the right to take away the rights of another group, so long as they believe that group didn't really have the right to have those rights in the first place. Right? And if that includes invalidating perfectly legal marriages, so be it, because it is certainly what God would have done. Of course on the other hand, I have trouble accepting that God would permit Joseph Smith to be present at the last judgment next to Jesus. I mean, true, Mormons can be very judgmental, but Jesus is God's son, isn't he? I don't think Smith was God's son. I think he was more of a kook. Seems a bit presumptuous of Mormons to think Smith is going to be standing there next to God on judgment day. But whatever. If you're right, then I guess you can screw us any way you want.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

What a long rant having nothing to do with any idea at all about the Seperation of Church and State! There's a reason why tax exempt organizations are not supposed to start influencing legislation, 20 million can push a vote through. It did in Nazi Germany and it can do it here. Every Mormon on this site rants and raves about how indestructible they think they are with your PR people, your up against the US Constitution with it, and we will just see who prevails. But, you think your piddley PR people are a match. Very funny. Roe vs. Wade, Seperation of Church and State, the American Constitution... grasp it already. You having trouble following this "train of thought" proves how narrow minded and bigoted your arguments are.

The reason why Mormon trolls have such a hard time grasping basic historical facts is because they have no defense so they play dumb like they can't figure it out. Well here's a clue, I understand your argument and here's the problems with it:

I especially love the part about it isn't the LDS it's the FLDS. So, whose the prophet of the Mormons? Joseph Smith. And, who wrote in the D&C about the sanctity of plural marriage, Joseph Smith, and who had to give up polygamy to become a Union of the State.... right again the LDS. Not the FLDS as you claim. You Mormons have to accept the historical facts and that's the history of your church whether you like it or not and no matter how powerful you think you've become you don't have the majority snowed as you think you do. The vote only passed because of lies propagandized by the LDS church and which ultimately I hope will cost them their tax exempt status.

And finally, it's not about your personal beliefs, we are not about to rule government based on religious personally held convictions. You don't believe in homosexuality, fine you don't have to be a homosexual. But, your not going to demonize minorities (blacks, jews, women or homosexuals) and take away their civil rights and not expect an uprising from a liberated society who is founded on the tenents of equal rights.

BloggerRadio · 11 months ago

What is truly "laughable" is the LDS's response to it's donation of $20 Million to promote a RELIGIOUS organization's POLITICAL will. It happened, and it has prompted a fire storm that you protest. Your comments talk about details of your religion in a seeming effort to correct some other commenters' alleged misunderstandings. You are over looking the big picture. You whine that your detractors have singled out your religion while not equally opposing Black, or Hispanic, or Catholic voters who you point to as responsible for the vote in California and to redirect your opposition to otheres besides yourself. You are overlooking the big picture here and attempting to divert the blame only exacerbates the LDS public relations problem, don't you see?

Is it REALLY necessary for me to take up more white space here showing you links to creditable reports of the nastiness of politics? The LDS is not experiencing anything that any person or organization does not experience when they choose to take a political stand. Whining and bemoaning the level of response that you [reads the LDS collectively] has CHOSEN prompt, only serves to further diminish the respectability of the church. In short, "if you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen". When the LDS decided to fund a political position, the LDS invited all sorts of participants into the fray. And the size of the LDS's contribution to their political position is directly proportional to the size of the opposition which has now been invited into the fray. It's called POLITICS. BY whining about the roughness of the sport, you expose your inexperience and lack of knowledge of the game. You are pouring gas on the fire. The LDS has now poked sticks at 900 pound gorilla that is "public opinion". I'm not Gay, but I am now drawn to the fight by the sheer size of the LDS contribution and by what I personally find distasteful about their weak arguments regarding their contribution not violating the separation of church and state. Secondarily, the majority of Americans probably still equate religion in general as playing a role in our 8-year-long national nightmare called BUSH. Not the LDS, but ANY and ALL religious organizations maybe viewed with jaundiced eye by their prior alignment with the stated positions of BUSH. So you see, even before the LDS took a stand and made a contribution it had a certain amount of pre-built opposition. I would speculate that the vast majority of Americans are sick and tired of any/all religions sticking their collective noses in our independent and individual lives. Of course, your freedom of speech provides you with that soapbox ... you don't SEEM to understand that we ALL get one though, and that even $20-ZILLION can't buy ours from us.

RitornaVincitor · 11 months ago

I totally agree that Mormons are being singled out simply because their religious beliefs are so utterly ludicrous. And it's just plain un-Christian. As Christians we have an obligation to be respectful of Mormons, regardless of their beliefs in golden tablets, heavenly planets, etc., etc., etc. Jesus taught us to be kind, even when others are taking away our rights. We know he was a total pacifist, and never challenged authority. Well, ok, maybe that's not true. But he taught us to be kind, and making fun of other people's religion, no matter how ridiculous, is not a Christian thing to do. Jesus was after all the only begotten son of God the Father who was born in a stable to a woman who had never had sex. As an infant he was visited by three wise men who had traveled westward following a star in the east. He fed thousands with just a few fish. He changed water into wine. He healed the sick and cast out demons. He was dead for a couple days, but then came back to life, and forty days later floated up into the clouds over Jerusalem where he still is almost 2000 years later, making the odd appearance here and there on windows, walls and french toast. And he's going to return one day and kill most of us, so we should show some respect. If a group of Christians thinks we don't deserve the right to marry, who are we to question their thinking?

RitornaVincitor · 11 months ago

But you see, Mormons have always been the victims. They're hated and despised just for being clean, wholesome folk. They were driven across the country and forced to live in the wilderness simply because of their faith. At least that's how they see it. And when they spent all that money taking away the right of millions of Californians to marry.... when they worked so hard to revoke the marriage of thousands who had married in California.... they were just standing up for tradition and apple pie. They weren't hurting anyone. We just hate them because they're Mormon. It has nothing to do with how they behave. We're so wicked!

Brad · 11 months ago

Yes, we are wicked.
When Mormons put their money to work on Prop 8, it was "taking a stand." When I find other businesses more attractive to patronize as a result of this shocking behavior and share my concerns with others, I'm committing "economic coercion."
How special.

John · 11 months ago

Patronize whoever you like. When I am talking about economic coercion, I am referring to demands that anyone who donated money to Prop 8 resign or be fired. Several gays at the workplace of a CA friend of mine, who donated a whopping $100 to Prop 8, went to his supervisor and demanded he be fired. Luckily for him, they were told that off the job political activism was not against company policy. But several people have been fired or pressured into resigning just for not falling in line. Disagree all you want, shop where you want, vote with your dollars, it's all good, but taking away a person's ability to make a living because they voted differently than you is facist. Unless you think that a majority of people in the USA should lose their jobs, because gay marriage has never, not once, not in any state, been voted in by a vote of the people. And outside of Utah and southern Idaho, Mormons are a tiny minority. They are just easy to pick on. Try taking your protests to a Southern Baptist church in the inner city, where 70% of the congregants voted for Prop 8, and see what kind of results you get.

Brad · 11 months ago

And no one should be fired for being gay. It happens.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Having your co-workers route you out for discriminating against minority groups is not only acceptable but has been written into State law everywhere! Have you ever heard of EEOC??? You can't discriminate based on sexual orientation. I swear, the religious right is RETARDED!! I don't care if the Southern Baptists think it too. I don't care who thinks being a bigot is somehow going to be sanctioned by the US of A. It's not going to!! It wouldn't even matter if the Supreme Court didn't agree which yet remains to be seen, it will never ever be accepted by the other half of the population! It's unconstitutional! And, if you think discriminating in the work place is cool, then you deserve to be sued!

I personally, can't wait for the day when someone's prop 8 contribution can be used as evidence in employment suits to sue employers who actively discriminate. If you have a high up employee who thinks discrimination is okay your running a liability. It should be evidence for discriminatory practices. And, if you've been discriminated agains because of your sexual orientation, I urge you to file a complaint with your States Labor Commission and get an attorney and let's start suing some bigots if your Company was required to be EEOC compliant.

I feel it's appropriate for a person who engages in discriminatory acts to be fired when those acts have been defined in state law as discriminatory towards minority groups which gays have been classified as.

And, I feel that donating to Prop 8 is a discriminatory act that could indeed cross over into the work place especially if the donation was made in the Company's name which I am betting they were for tax write offs at the end of the year.

brianna · 11 months ago

You say "taking away a person's ability to make a living because they voted differently than you is fascist." Is it also fascist to take away a gay person's ability to make a living just because they're gay? Yes, in most states that is possible. You can fire someone just because they're gay. The Mormons are opposed to equal rights for gays and think it's OK to fire gays. They are opposed to ENDA (as they were opposed to the ERA for women).

RitornaVincitor · 11 months ago

I totally agree. Mormons shouldn't be fired for donating a whopping $100 to a hateful cause. They should be fired because they're so damn boring! I mean, did you see those Utah Olympics?! Covered wagons? Square dancing? Zzzzzzzzzzz........

BigAnswer · 11 months ago

Frankly, in response, I think that the homosexual community is the one doing the "shoving" down the throat of every american their corrupt morals and lifestyles. Forcing every american into thinking they deserve "equality" when in fact, it's too easy to see for anyone that has any sense of morality that gays are the ones with the aggressive tactics.

The people of California spoke,...move on!

Brad · 11 months ago

You are entitled to feel that way. Now move along.

shell · 11 months ago

I am seeing a pattern here: MOVE ON.

You wish! You can suggest it all you like -- no one decent is moving on. (Just as most Americans didn't MOVE ON when the call came to allow women or Blacks to vote .... many more examples.) I realize Mormons don't treat females or Blacks as 1st class citizens. Mormons are stuck back in the 19th century. Grow up and come to the 21st century.

So keep screaming MOVE ALONG. It is funny. But sad. All religious nuts seem to be terrified of the 21st century, and, before it, the 20th.

Brad · 11 months ago

I replied to BIG ANSWER, the ranting bigot. The thread-structure isn't clear at first glance.

shell · 11 months ago

I know! I realized that later. Sorry.



In a message dated 12/6/2008 7:32:00 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
writes:

I replied to BIG ANSWER, the ranting bigot. The thread-structure isn't
clear at first glance.

**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and
favorite sites in one place. Try it now.
(http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40v...)

Mike_in_the_Tundra · 11 months ago

Move on? I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

Apparently you are another one who has never passed an American government or constitution class. We don't "deserve" equality - we are full citizens of this nation being DENIED equality by "religious" bigots who believe the government - and the Constitution - is supposed to be an extension of their CHURCH doctrine. There is nothing "moral" about the Right's position at all.

As we've seen countless times over the last few decades, those who preach "morality" the most are always the most immoral in their behavior and actions.

And as for "shoving their corrupt morals and lifestyles" down the throats of Americans, it isn't the gay community with the reeducatio n camps, the doctrines that demand constant recruitment of free adults into authoritarian "churches" and wasting their time pounding the drum of persecuting others in the name of an imaginary voice in the sky.

BloggerRadio · 11 months ago

Huh? Apparently, you have NO understanding of POLITICS. EXAMPLE: Republicans recently bought and paid for two elections and ended up controlling most of the 3 branches of our national government. How'd did your whole "the people have spoken ... move on" thing work out for ya on Nov. 4, 2008, hmmm? How about science or nature? You know any more about those than you do "politics"? For every action there is an equal but opposite reaction. Let's talk about the legality of the monies that a tax exempt religious organization contributed to a political campaign for a bit now.

BloggerRadio · 11 months ago

Here is one that boils it down to more simple terms you may better understand: "It ain't over until the fat lady sings". ;-) I'd say it ain't even half-time yet.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

In this case the phrase would be, " it aint over till the fat drag queen sings."

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Morality according to who? That's the problem with no separation of church and state. According to your argument we should all get together and decide what's moral and takes rights away from those we deem "immoral", welcome to the Dark Ages??? I don't think so! Your living in a fantasy world if you think the American people will stand for it.

The Consitution of America gaurantee's equal rights. According to you, you were "forced" to accept civil rights for women and blacks because your bishop told you that you were a victim because you couldn't force everyone to believe that's it's "moral" to be a bigot. Listen the days of the dark ages are over!

And finally, it's not the "homosexual" community. I'm not homosexual and I know a lot of people who support equal rights who are not homosexual. They do not have "aggressive" tactics, but we're not going to be ruled by the sword by a church in this day and age. So, um maybe it's you who should move on -- or move to an Islamic country where there's no separation of someone's myth's and rights where you'd be the most happiest in your delusional fantasy world? Just a suggestion...

Sling Shot · 11 months ago

America has known that the believers of the blasphemous book of mormon were liars from the very beginning. The full page ad in the New York Times is another bigoted myth from the outer darkness. The evil of Mormon deception knows no bounds.

CostitutionalCommando · 11 months ago

You ran a hate filled MURDER the Mormons campaign, BURN their church's DOWN. Now you are being called on it., AND YOU CLAIM TO BE THE VICTIMS. Hubris art its worst.

Blueflash · 11 months ago

So who was it who elected the Mormon, Mitt Romney, to the governship of liberal Massachusetts? A bipartisan group that included a lot of gays - this being before he turned into a religious right authoritarian in order to appease Evangelicals, but to no avail.The Evangelicals shot down his presidential ambitions because they hate Mormons. We, on the other hand, didn't give a damn about his religious beliefs while he didn't threaten to impose them on all of society. We gays have a long history in this country of living cheek by jowl with people who accept religious doctrines that condemn us and we know how to put up with it. That tolerance ends however when they seek to legislate their doctrines on our civil government. And it is meant to be a civil government, not a theocracy. Don't like that fact? Then move to Iran.

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

How many temples were burned? How many Mormons were murdered?

Another example of drama queen wingnuts trying desperately to deflect attention from their own hate campaign.

BloggerRadio · 11 months ago

Show the links and the facts to back your rant/cliam or it is ignored as just so-much noise. I don't doubt that they exist, I only doubt that someone who writes with such anger has read them for themselves and put them through their own thinking machinery. When I read such a rant I suspect that instead of having evidence-at-the-ready that you are only parroting what you may have been ordered to parrot by your right-wing hate-handlers. I suspect you are full of ca-ca. Now, show me even ONE link to an organized 'campaign' to "murder the Mormons" that you claim exists. Sheez.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Notice how there's conveniently no reply to site valid sources. These LDS are sooo full of it.

Joe · 11 months ago

vandalism- http://bashbacknews.wordpress.com/2008/11/17/ba... book burned- http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/pages/News/D...
white powder- http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=4787495

For the record, I am a former Mormon and have been vocally against prop 8, I think it was ignorant and wrong and yes, bigoted. But I see a lot of bigotry in the response. Sure people should be upset, but demonizing your foes actually inhibits your ability to fight them. It prevents you from seeing their motivations and understanding how to counter their actions. A lot of the comments here display the same attitudes they condemn.

Mike_in_the_Tundra · 11 months ago

Perhaps we need to have a discussion about what makes a source legitimate. I still have not seen a legitimate source for the vandalism, such as a news item from a TV or radio station, a newspaper article, or a police report. I had already heard about the book burning and white powder. I have become very suspicious of vicious acts that have no identifible assailant. I have been that way ever since the McCain supporter reported that an Obama supporter carved a B on her face.

As far as the blatant bigotry is concerned, I'm certain it will continue on both sides. People who are mad act bigoted, and both sides are mad. I suspect that the Church of the LDS have started something that they did not expect would happen.

Joe · 11 months ago

Mike- http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2008/nov/20/... The police report was listed on the incident log of the Thurston County Sheriff's Office for November 16th but I can't figure out where the archive is. I can only find the last 24hrs. I'll post that when I can find it- they called it malicious mischief.

Joe · 11 months ago

Also- http://www.abc4.com/mostpopular/story/Radical-g... Is that substantiated? Or did it not happen if no one is caught? By the way, it isn't so mysterious that I knew about it, my wife who is mormon-ish (and against prop 8) was there and told me about it that morning. Then some anarchists friends sent me a link to the bashback post claiming credit.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

If you would have read to the end of the article you have posted you would see the following:

We oppose violence in any form," said Colette Beighley, a spokeswoman for the Michigan-based Triangle Foundation. "We hope civil disobedience to further the cause of civil rights does not cross that line."

People get a little upset when a Church tries to take away the civil rights of a minority group who doesn't believe as they do. And, we're all on edge because we think the Mormon Church's aims are ultimately to leglislate their religion into law and remove right of anyone who isn't LDS which they have proven time and time again through out history as being their true aims. Gee, I wonder why people are showing violence toward the Mormons.

I rest my case.

Joe · 11 months ago

I did read to the end, what does that have to do with anything I have said? I didn't say the triangle foundation did this. I just said it actually was happening. Wasn't your case that there was no violence towards Mormons, that it was all unsubstantiated and didn't happen. Now you rest your case that they deserve it?

gwyneth · 11 months ago

I said that the violence toward the Mormons in regards to white powder was unsubstantiated which IT STILL IS and I think it's still the Mormon's doing it to themselves so that they can play victim.

At any rate it hasn't been substantiated that it was the GLBT community who has done anything to them other than to tell them that they don't have to live under the rules of the Book of Mormon which they don't....

so don't put words in my mouth, you think that a Church can go around taking away minority groups civil rights and not have cases of random violence? yeah, I think they deserve whatever they get!

However, that's called equal and opposite reaction, NOT persecution like you want to claim.

Joe · 11 months ago

What in your mind would substantiate the white powder story? The FBI is testing the powder, I presented a valid news source. Your suspicion that they mailed it to themselves does not mean it is unsubstantiated it. If that were the case we could say 9-11 never happened because some people suspect it was an inside job. (please don't get on me thinking I am comparing the two, I'm not.)

What words have I put in your mouth? You said there were no valid sources implying that none of it happened and I supplied them.

You think violence and half truths are justified, I think they aren't. How do we condemn false portrayals of the results of gay marriage in pro 8 ads and then resort to the same thing? Are you going to tell me to move to Iran again? Violence is not an equal and opposite reaction. Investigation and possible removal of tax exempt status and putting time and money into the overturn of prop 8 is.

Joe · 11 months ago

gwyneth- I can't prove it wasn't all a false flag operation as you propose, neither can you "SUBSTANTIATE" your theory. Again, I never said that the church was vandalized by the GLBT community. I can see that you thought I was implying that with my examples of action taken against the gay community, but I was only hoping to point out that if similar acts were to happen to the GLBT community it would most likely be labeled a hate crime pretty quickly and not glossed over as no big deal. Also, I didn't respond earlier because I was on the road. Don't be so quick to gloat. Why do you tell me to move to Iran if I don't like separation of church and state? How many times do I have to say that I am not religious and that I think the LDS were wrong? Your assumptions and use of "you people" are exactly what I am complaining about.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

The fact that it is unsubstantiated means that the Mormon religion is not "persecuted" as they have claimed all through history. If they want to undermine the US Constitution's First Amendment then they have to expect the fallout when American Citizens feel their civil rights are under attack. Your in a Country where people have fought and died in civil wars and if Mormons think that America will allow them to start removing civil rights of minority groups then they should expect an equal and opposite reaction.

I personally am not for violence, but I can see where Missouri citizens for instance were justified against the Mormons who tried to convert by force, by "raiding" and physically attacking non mormon communities. Mormons continually undermine the tenents of the Constitution and continually act like it's "no big deal" to remove other citizens civil rights. Everyone is sick to death of their constant attempts to leglislate their religion into law and their subsequent "we're persecuted" theory when citizens revolt. I am glad that you at least recognize the acts of the so called "persecuted Church" were wrong.

Furthermore, the gays have been defined as a minority group. The mormons have not been defined as a classified minority group.

Joe · 11 months ago

I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure the raids had nothing to do with forced conversion. They were retalitory in nature, a response to mob violence. They burned homes and seized property not quite a missionary effort. Not justifying them, they made plenty of enemies but I think that is a mischaracterization of the missouri period.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

You are wrong, read a history book. Their conflict from the beginning was because Joseph Smith could not get Separation of Church and State through that skull of his.

Joe · 11 months ago

I've read plenty and you are simplifying the conflict and attributing the raids to conversion when they were in fact retaliation and a show of force. It was not all about seperation of church and state. I presented sources in a response above.

I haven't said the LDS don't deserve a response. Picketing, debate and demonstrating is all fine. Vandalism and threats and demonization are tacticts that will backfire. This is a civil and moral arguement and getting on the wrong side of ethics and discourse aren't going to overturn prop 8.

joe · 11 months ago

All of our local churches were vandalized here in Olympia Washington, a book of Mormon was burned on the temple steps in Denver and white powder was mailed to church headquarters in Salt Lake. You can google any of that. Prop 8 was wrong and the LDS church will find itself on the wrong side of history once again, but these comments are full of flat out bigotry, ignorance and hate and are wrong. What would the response be if someone burned a rainbow flag on your porch? Or mailed white powder to the local GLT service office? This is exactly like reading some right wing blog speculating that Obama is muslim and that all muslims are terrorists.

How about the episcopal church? They came out against prop 8 and recommended that voters oppose it. Were they wrong? Should they have stayed out of the fight? Had they managed to organize as well as the pro 8 crowd, would you ask that they be investigated? I doubt it. If the Mormons crossed legal boundaries they should pay for it. Organize against prop 8, don't waste your time and energy with the same bigotry but twice the hate that you saw from the mormons.

Mike_in_the_Tundra · 11 months ago

I googled like a good little boy. There was only one legitimate mention of church vandalism, and that was not a LDS church and it was in January. Of course, I did find a Mormon message board. The folks there speak of vandalism that apparently was never reported to police. Oh yes, one guy knows (in some mysterious way) that the unreported vandalism was done by homosexuals. Well gee, with evidence like that, you need to take all of us gays to court.

If you are planning on using referenced sites, include the site information in your post. Don't just tell us to google.

I feel that all churches should not interfere with political actions. That includes my own church which is ELCA. If churches want to play politics, they should voluntarily give up their tax exempt basis.

Gary SF · 11 months ago

Uh, we have been putting up with this type of bigotry from the LDS and Catholic churches for several decades and it is going to stop NOW. This isn't just about proposition 8. When we finally hone our boycotts to just a few Mormon-owned business - to make them suffer the consequences of the impact of their ACTIONS upon us - they will know what we have been feeling for more than 30 years. I look forward to seeing Mormons losing their jobs in this economy. Own it, bitches. Unless you share your anger with someone, you can't expect their behavior to change. I welcome the fall of the LDS cult, but sadly, there are too many ignorant people that will still continue to perpetuate this sick, perverted religion.

BloggerRadio · 11 months ago

Actually, your supposition that I would not ask that the Episcopal Church be investigated is entirely incorrect. I only mention an "investigation" to feign some measure of fairness. In truth, I fully support any legislative proposal, which would remove the tax-exempt status of every church and religious organization in this country, bar none, and without investigating whether or not they have used that tax-exempt status to unfairly promote their political will, or not. No exceptions; no exemptions. I take that position largely because of their constant meddling in politics and the obvious and proven disastrous results of that meddling. Religious fundamentalists gave us George W. Bush and that has done more to damage our country than any other single event in our history. It will take a century to correct that ass-hat's misdeeds. I remain unconvinced by your suggestion that the stories you reference can be Googled. Sure they can. I can just as easily Google a Martian invasion too. If YOU are the person making the reference as the basis of your claims, either provide the link to a credible source, or you can fully expect others to discount your claims. Based on your response I'm prompted to ask you what the difference might have been in the amount of monies funneled to the campaign by LDS versus the amount funneled by the Episcopal Church, I don't know myself, but I would speculate the the sheer amount of the LDS contribution, alongside the LDS's open opposition and public tenacity has prompted an equal but opposite reaction. As for the incidents you relate by way of example, those appear, to me, to be incidents which should rightfully addressed by local law enforcement. I recall hearing in the news an even more sinister threat or threats against Obama during the campaign and yet I do not recall candidate Obama choosing to focus attention on those negatives. In fact, it is my recollection that Obama successfully diverted attention back to the positive and to the issues. I think that might be an example of political savvy the LDS might well consider as an example of a lesson they have yet to have assimilated. As for your question: "What would the response be if someone burned a rainbow flag on your porch?" I'd step outside and stamp it out and if I couldn't I'd call the fire department. By the way, I'm not Gay. I simply will not stand idly by and watch as well financed organization attempts to bully the individual rights and freedoms that every human being should be entitled to, simply because those rights and freedoms do not align themselves with narrow-minded and misguided ideologies of ANY religious organization. More human beings have been slaughtered on this planet in the name of religion than for all other causes combined. What sane person would continue to prompt such positions? I suggest that the LDS's time and monies would be better leveraged building some more of their elite and exclusive country clubs with golden spires ... the rest of us have lives to live, and we are not so afraid of life as to have to form gangs to encircle and protect us from one another.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

JOE -- stop with the accusations already, nobody was caught sending white powder to the Mormons and we suspect it was the Mormons themselves who did it so that they could play the victim role which is something they've done since the beginning when they were being rejected from Missouri because Joseph Smith could not get Separation of Church and State through his head!! In Missouri the Mormons went on raids against their neighboring communities (under the banner of heaven, Krakauer) and then they were raided and ever since then they've been "persecuted victims" because America won't allow them to legislate their religion on everybody!

So your assumption that is was the GLBT community who vandalized their church or that we have mailed them white powder is not

SUBSTANTIATED

These political moves like mailing white powder to yourself to play the victims reek of Mormon Theology all the way through, fromt he beginning to the end.

And, just because we're going to enforce Separation of Church and State doesn't mean that we are bigots like the Mormons, we believe in equal rights. And, just because the US Constitution doesn't allow for leglislation that relies only on religious fiction doesn't mean that you people are "victims". If you don't like it you are free to move to Iran where there are no such separations.

Joe · 11 months ago

Actually I never said the GLBT community vandalized the church's. A local anarchist group took credit saying it was their response to prop 8 and stated that the church could either disband or be destroyed. http://bashbacknews.wordpress.com/2008/11/17/ba...

gwyneth · 11 months ago

I guess that's the backlash the Church gets when it continually undermines the US Constitution to take rights away from anyone who isn't LDS. If the Church isn't prepared to fight a civil war like they did in Missouri then I guess they should stop infringing on the rights of other American Citizens who choose not to be Mormon because that's exactly where the whole thing is headed. It's their short sightedness if they think that people won't stand up for their civil rights in this Country.

Similarly now that the Church has openly taken actions of a political entity -- this is the fall out! Get used to it!! I'm not saying that what the anarchist group did was right, but I read their article and they think that they have to protect their civil rights against Mormons which is something that has crossed all of our minds in response to their Hitlerish political propagandizing so that they can legislate their religion into law and tyrranize US Citizens.

Wesinoregon · 11 months ago

Interesting radio show tonight on Coast to Coast AM about the inquisition and how religion uses that blueprint even today. Coasttocoastam.com for info upper right.corner.

Gindy · 11 months ago

Read
one Nation Under Gods and you will see exactly where they came from and where they want to go.
It will scare the shit out you.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Yes it will scare anyone who believes in liberty and justice for all. The Mormons have a long well documented history of wanting to leglislate their religion into law. The gays are only the beginning. Mormons wish to remove the rights of anyone who chooses to not be a Mormon which would result in a civil war (as it did during the 1800's in Missouri).

KarenF · 11 months ago

John, I have a problem blaming the Mormons. That proposition was losing when this thing started. The argument to reinforce people's first impression that it was a bad idea was . . . what? Meanwhile, the other side made arguments about impact on education, even distributing a video about the 2 picture book cases in Massachusetts, Parker and Wirthlin (sic?). I don't live in CA but followed this thing and I didn't see a response to that specific point. One side is telling people that legal gay marriage will result in romanticizing homosexuality for kindergartners and the response is something like, "Your mother wears combat boots!" We have to deal with the whole megillah openly and honestly and reassure people that there are no tricks, no surprises. People initially opposed 8 because the don't care who is married to who and who isn't and they still don't.

RainbowPhoenix · 11 months ago

They wouldn't have been able to do those things nearly as often if the Mormons hadn't supplied them $20 million.

smallhandff · 11 months ago

Well, I'm hardly suprised that Orin Hatch is on the Board of Advisors of this Beckett thing, but Sargent Shriver & Eunice Kennedy Shriver??
WTF !!
Perhaps the HRC will attempt to contact the Shrivers for a quote.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Orrin Hatch is the worst! We can only hope to vote him out some freakin day!

michael · 11 months ago

if you're going to rant about a group of people, get your facts straight. first, the bible states that jesus and satan are brothers, not the mormons. second, they do not believe that christ had three wives, including his mother. third, they are christians (you're statement implies they are not). grow up, get educated and, i know this is a toughie for people of your ilk, but, be mature. and, fourth, the mormons were not the only religious group involved in this debacle - if you're going to be juvenile and merely blame, rather than actually roll up your sleeves and work, at least spread it around and blather about all of those responsible.
one more note: it never ceases to amaze me how 'diversity' only means those with whom you and your sycophantic minions agree. the definition of diversity actually means 'variety', not merely those who agree with you outside what you see as the 'norm' or 'mainstream' and, thus, have labelled as bad or mind-controlling, etc. now that 'diversity' has become the litmus test of this generation you and your affiliates have done everything they can to change the definition of the word to mean your myopic view of the world and not the fact that all opinions, beliefs and practices are to be, whatever you want to call it - 'tolerated' or 'accepted' or 'allowed to exist', etc.
again, grow up, get your dictionary, and help rather than hinder the progress of our society

BloggerRadio · 11 months ago

Mikie, as I read it, the tax exempt Moron church ... oops, I meant 'Mormon' Church, or course, was the largest single religious organization to contribute to the POLITICAL opposition to Gay marriage rights in a POLITICAL campaign in California recently. I would suggest to your holier-than-thou, more-mature-and-intellectual self that your indignant response is, itself, misplaced. As much so as the POLITICAL contributions of any and all RELIGIOUS organizations. And I would encourage law makers to insist that the IRS investigate, at the very least.

If the Mormon church finds that their excessive monetary contributions to a POLITICAL campaign have been met by an equally excessive response, then I must suggest to you that it is they who are immature / naive, and yes, even ignorant. The very law of nature dictates that for every action there is an equal but opposite reaction, by the way.

Secondarily, I believe, as I suspect that a massive majority of Americans do that we each are entitled to our opinions and the freedom of speech to express them as we see fit, within the limits of the laws that we our selves support the legislation of ... there are some prose titled "Desiderata" (which I personally believe are more logical than most religious writings) which contain this following line:
[snip]
"As far as possible without surrender
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story. "
[snip]
And I noticed that your own comment was a tad hypocritical ... a trait I find universal among those who come to the defense of religions and religious beliefs, and all zealots. Your comment resorted to its own form of name calling and attacking, in order to attack name calling and attacking. That was weak. And, such hypocrisy completely and totally robs your comment of ANY measure of credibility. It is my personal opinion that there is a fine line between organized crime and organized religion and that the Mormon church regularly crosses that line. You may count me among the growing majority who view it as more CULT than religion. If you have a problem with that, bring it, and your millions on.

kevinbgoode · 11 months ago

Ohh...were the Mormons right to marry just put up for popular vote?

gwyneth · 11 months ago

It's the Book of Mormon that elaborates a war in heaven. Understand that semetic theology is also thousands of years old lending to it's credibility and that your argument (theologically speaking) depends on "piggy backing" if you will on the bible when Joseph Smith elaborates the war in heaven in The Book of Mormon, depicting Jesus and Satan as being brothers. It does not make The Book of Mormon have the credibility as the Bible. You should google, "jesus and satan brothers" and see what it brings up, "LDS Theology" before you make these inaccurate assumptions. Insert foot in mouth.

Mormons do not believe that Christ had three wives - I think John is actually making a parody here of The Doctrine and Covenants (an additional peice authored by Joseph Smith to the Book of Mormon) which professes the sanctity of plural marriage. Most religions believe that Christ was never married owing to the Theologies of Patriarchal Catholic Europe. Most historical scholars think that he was married.

Religious theology has long been steeped in prejudice, fear and discrimination. It doesn't mean that is the way we want to run our government. Has nothing to do with your convoluted argument about "diversity". We recognize that everyone has the right to be a bigot if they want to for their religious views, but we don't want it in our government. I urge you to get educated because you saying that because we want separation of church and state means that we deplore true diversity is a gross misunderstanding to say the very least of the true meanings our country was founded on. When we didn't have separation of Church and State we ended up with Islam, World War II with the Nazi (the third reich being their "religious and theological beliefs"), and The Crusades. So, as you see your assertion that the definition of "diversity" is somehow not mutually exclusive of Separation of Church and State is grossly under educated.

In fact, if it wasn't for the tenents of the Constitution, Mormonism may not exist today. You do understand this very basic function of the ideas of Seperation of Church and State???! It's just not that hard to grasp.

Furthermore, if the LDS got a group of actual educated theologians together and trouble shoot their views they may be able to avoid some of these run ins with liberated people's which has been their problem all along. The LDS church needs to grow with the times, it's no longer acceptable to shove your religious views into legislation and think your going to gain popularity in this country. They have other strengths that could be an asset to communities like their work in welfare systems. But, they have got to get separation of Church and State through their skulls. That's the root of why their losing popularity and they will continue to do so until they bend. A bough that doesn't bend in the wind of changing times and enlightened society's who don't want to rule by fear and prejudice will eventually break! This isn't Islam!!

BloggerRadio · 11 months ago

I recall seeing an anti-bumper-sticker bumper-sticker that read "Nuke a whale for Jesus" ... gotta get some printed up that say sumptin' like "Butt Hump a Mormon for Jesus".

shell · 11 months ago

To all religious nuts (like "Michael" below):

Who F-ing cares? "Get your facts straight"? hahahaha Okie Dokie. The FACT is: you are insane.

"Get educated?" Why don't YOU get educated and stop swilling this garbage?

When you DO get educated, you will stop this childishness. I have a suggestion: understand SCIENCE, not myth. Who cares if the Mormons believe whatever. Who CARES if Jesus is Satan's brother, or slept with his mother? This is a wacked-out myth, the whole deal.

Now if you need religion -- ANY religion -- to get you through the night -- go for it. BUT do NOT try to throw this crap on me -- or anyone else who doesn't ask for it.

Baptize me, my children, my ancestors -- whoever you like. Knock yourself out. It is just silly. And your time would be better spent helping living people today. But if you insist on being insane, your choice. Just leave me out of it.

Merv · 11 months ago

This whole force converting dead people to Mormonism is just plain goofy. It's totally meaningless. It's like the wicked witch trying to turn you in to a toad. Kinda cute in a gory fairytale way but in reality it's just nuts and as far as I know has never really happend. It's just silly stuff. Meaningless. I mean total self serving bunk.

The stories humans will invent to give ourselves a reason for life on earth is just plain crazy.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

I have written the NY Times and told them that I thought the ad they have chosen to publish is incredibly insensitive to those who have lost their civil rights in this country and that I hope the LDS Church has compensated them enough for the loss of business they will now face for publishing religious myths in place of historical truths. And, then I unsubsribed. Add NY Times to the boycott list!!

Hmmmm · 11 months ago

This dude gets it. You people, do not.

http://www.gaypatriot.net/2008/11/07/no-state-r...

Brad · 11 months ago

"...state recognition of same-sex marriage represents a huge social change. And social change can be a good thing. It’s time to show why that is so. The burden falls on those pushing the change."

And if stubborn bigots do not accept the `showing why,' the `pushing of the change,' on grounds of `wisdom of repugnance,' or of illogical superstition? What then/now?

Send clean-cut young gays out into the world in pairs, to knock on doors and share the "gay gospel?" Hmm...

gwyneth · 11 months ago

The reason why you think that this dude "gets it" is because you have done no research into the US Constitution and admittedly "don't get it." Scroll down to see posts from Hmmmm and how she thinks the First Amendment means that she has an inherent right to leglislate her religious preference on all of us because she can't understand English.

For the record, marriage has already been defined as not only a civil right but a fundamental civil right in the Constitution (there's that work again that to you is "illiterate") So tell me how it's a benefit as this guy fictitiously wishes instead of being a civil right which is written in the constitution?

I suppose you don't get it. As usual.

joe · 11 months ago

Is there anywhere in that statement that actually says in anyway bagging on their religion should be made illegal? Can't find it. I guess because it isn't there. It even states "even the crudest anti-religious propaganda isn't illegal, and may not constitutionally be outlawed." Does anyone read this stuff before buying into John's ludicrous headlines?

So, #1- the ad was not taken out by the Mormons. #2 The Mormons have not said it should be illegal to call them names or disagree with them #3 This ad doesn't say free speech is wrong and never mentions outlawing it. Quit acting like knee jerk bigoted republicans and organize in an intelligent manner and there may be a chance of garnering public support and overturning this thing. Yes their beliefs are strange, stranger than reincarnation or elephant faced gods. Let's try mocking that huh? Oh wait that would be bigoted. How about the sikhs? They have said "The basic duty of Sikh MPs in Canada should be to support laws that stop this kind of practice homosexuality, because there are thousands of Sikhs living in Canada, to ensure that Sikhs do not fall prey to this practice." They even wear funny underwear! All religions are loony in there own ways. Is it only OK to mock the ones that aren't as open minded and tolerant as you?

Brad · 11 months ago

"Milk before meat."
Maybe I'm "lactose" intollerant
.
http://www.mormonwiki.org/Lying_for_the_Lord

God loves His Latter Day Liars. No?

gwyneth · 11 months ago

"bagging on their religion". No it doesn't say that, because that is not a coherent, legible sentence. What it says is that it is not illegal to take a stand for a political cause, although the Becket fund does not take the same stand that Mormon church takes (because it is so obviously BIGOTED) So, no the Becket fund would not take that stand because they probably have some intelligence unlike their LDS counterparts.

However; the legalness of what the Mormons have done is up for debate because they are under investigation to see if they have declared all of their actions and support properly in California, and if they haven't they will be fined and it will open up a great big door for Uncle Sam to start investigating through the IRS.

No matter what the Becket fund says.

To answer your question, anybody can mock anybody else in this country just like anyone can make bigotry be a bona fide religion like how the Mormons have accomplished. They have no chance of garnering any support that isn't bigoted as they are. The American people just aren't that gullible. The difference is this country was founded on an Amendment which has an unmistakable tenent of Separation of Church and State, and it will be separated come hell or high water. We will not stand for ANY religion to start leglislating into law their bigoted ideas of equal rights!

Joe · 11 months ago

I'm sorry, but using a colloquial term for criticism does not make the sentence incoherent. You have some inventive sentence structure yourself, so let's drop the stones.Your response doesn't address my question at all. I didn't say anything about the separation of church and state. I absolutely agree that religion should be kept out of the political sphere. I didn't say the Mormons shouldn't be investigated. You seem to assume I support prop 8 so you attack me, but I was firmly and vocally against it. Just as I am firmly against all bigotry. Thanks for the civics lesson though. I never said that the Becket Fund defended the church's position either. The point of my question was that the headline on this post has nothing to do with the reality of the ad defending The Mormons. Where do we find the Mormons saying that speaking out against them should be illegal? It's not their ad, the ad doesn't say speaking out against the Mormon's position is wrong. The Becket Fund says there is no room for threats of violence and there isn't, by either side. If threats aren't being made then there is no reason to worry about it.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Your missing the boat when you say that people shouldn't be upset if their civil rights are being taken away. According to your argument, the civil war that took place in this country wasn't justified because it was "violent" - that's just too damned bad for the slave owners, isn't it? Just like it's tough shit for the Mormons! That is the result when you take the civil liberties away from minority groups!! That's too bad if it's getting violent, that's the thing in this Country people will fight for their rights. It was tremendously short-sighted of the Church to say the very least, to not expect it.

We are trying to take the high road even though the Mormons asked for and fully deserve every bit of resistance that they are getting! Every bit!

Mormons are taking the position that they are "persecuted" because we won't let them leglislate their religion into law and take away the civil rights of anyone who disagrees with their theologies quietly. In other words, they want to make it be socially unacceptable to oppose them which is where the headline of this banner is coming from. They also want the Constitution to apply ONLY to them and nobody else in this Country.

If the Mormons could make it be illegal to protest them, they most certainly would! If they could make it be law that every citizen HAS to be a mormon they most certainly would! They have a long history in starting civil wars to prove it.

Joe · 11 months ago

Where did I say people shouldn't be upset about civil rights being taken away? I said that headline had nothing to do with reality. You do not address anything I actually say.

So the fact that you believe Mormons would pass a law that every citizen has to be Mormon makes it reality and thus justifies the giant leap of logic this post takes? News flash, they could have done that when they first moved to Utah. They didn't. I lived in Texas in a dry county settled by Quakers. There are actually bars in Utah and liquor stores. Utah was actually the deciding vote to repeal prohibition. Your accusations are just inflamed opinion

gwyneth · 11 months ago

the headline does have something to do with "reality". The reality being that the Mormons buddies (the becket fund) wants to cast them in the light where they are the "persecuted" religion because the first amendment doesn't allow them to legislate their religion on everybody!

yes, I do believe that the LDS would pass a law to make everyone be LDS and the reason why I think that is not just because of "inflamed opinion" as you assert but is actually based on the history of their church like when Joseph Smith said that he would rule by "the sword" to make everyone believe as he does in Missouri and proceeded to physically attack and raid his non LDS neighbors. Jon Krakauer, Under the Banner of Heaven.

This stuff is documented history, get a clue!

It's called history! Not inflamed opinion like you wish.

http://www.answers.com/topic/mormon-war

Newsflash: They did do that when they moved to Utah! They were forced by the US Government to give up their practice of child abuse (polygamy) in order to be recognized as a State of the Union and certainly didn't welcome any non-members into their community.

http://www.answers.com/topic/mormon-war

As I said, know your history before you come on sites like these and blustering about how the Mormons are so persecuted because they can't force us all to be Mormon.

Joe · 11 months ago

There were non-Mormons in Utah before it was a state. There was no law or attempt to force them to convert. http://www.e-referencedesk.com/resources/state-... Roughly 10% of the population. So, news flash: no they didn't force their conversion.

You are picking and chosing your Missouri history. http://www.mrm.org/topics/historical-issues/vio... here is a site that is openly against Mormonism with a much more complete picture of what went on. The problems in Missouri had as much to do with Mormon economic and political dominence as any religious sentiment. Joseph Smith was also running for president on an abolitionist platform and that didn't go over well with slave owners (ironic considering the doctrinal bigotry towards blacks) I have never said the Mormons were faultless and didn't bring a lot of that on themselves. I know the history and I know it was far more complicated than what you are trying to present. The residents of Missouri were also not innocent victims. There was much back and forth and the Mormon violence started after violence towards them. Were they justified? No. Did they commit atrocities? You bet. Were the Missourians justified in their attacks? Not any more than the Mormons. Do you know about the extermination order issued by Gov. Boggs?

I can't find any evidence of attempted forced conversion in Missouri despite any quotes attributed to Smith (can't find that one, can you find the source for me. Not doubting you, just interested) .

Mormons have a persecution complex going back to those days. They are overreacting now. But they are not attempting to make it illegal to criticize them. The Anti-Defimation league issued a message similar to the one coming from the Becket Fund. I'm pretty sure that isn't because they want the Mormons to be able to force their religion on people (look at the whole baptism for the dead controversy).

gwyneth · 11 months ago

The Mormon Church is not a "persecuted" religion just because we have the First Amendment. It's just too bad that they are under investigation and are facing decline in popularity because they thought that Americans were as gullible as their congregations are and that Americans are literate who can read the US Constitution for themselves and decide for themselves that it means that no religion can legislate their doctrine into law.

We will see what the US Supreme Court has to say, and no amount of money will get the Egg off their faces!

CostitutionalCommando · 11 months ago

http://gayconservative.org/2008/11/07/burn-thei...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081114/ap_on_re_us...

gwyneth · 11 months ago

Change your name to unconstitutional idiot who doesn't understand the English language.

It's too bad for you that America does understand English!

There's not a thing you will ever be able to do to change or alter the language of the first amendment, that is just tough shit for you!!

CostitutionalCommando · 11 months ago

gwyneth:

The US Constitution says no such thing.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

The First Amendment to the United States Constitution is the part of the United States Bill of Rights that expressly prohibits the United States Congress from making laws "respecting an establishment of religion".

If you understand the English language - this means that anyone can believe anything they want but you can't legislate your religion on the rest of us. There is a wall separating Church and State in the First Amendment.

You can sit there all you want and say that there's no Separation of Church and State in the Constitution but you'll never sell it to American citizens no matter how hard you try!! It's written in plain English.

Furthermore, the 14th Amendment states: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.

But I guess that doesn't really exist either?!

As I said, you can make your uneducated assertions all you want about the Constitution but it does exist, it does say these things, and people are able to read it for themselves without the help any Church (or you) to help them understand it.

gwyneth · 11 months ago

The Mormon Church is not a "persecuted" religion just because we have the First Amendment. It's just too bad that they are under investigation and are facing decline in popularity because they thought that Americans were as gullible as their congregations are and that Americans are literate who can read the US Constitution for themselves and decide for themselves that it means that no religion can legislate their doctrine into law.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/rights1...

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/constitution...

You call yourself "constitutional commando"? Yeah you're really Constitutional you obviously need to go back to school and learn a few things about the US Constitution like the tenents and what they actually are supposed to preserve and protect.

dr. bob · 11 months ago

Take an M out of Mormons and you get what they really are. MOR_ONS.