DISQUS

eagleye · 1 year ago

Good. And let's keep hitting them on the economic front. If Marriott loses enough business, the message will get through.

caerbannog · 1 year ago

The Mormon-owned Marriott hotel chain is ironically one of the biggest pay-per-view porn merchants around.

The Mormon church rakes in big bucks selling porn to businessmen all over the USA.

bigG · 1 year ago

The Mariott isn't owned by the Mormon church, it's owned by Mariott, who happens to be a Mormon. You should get your facts straight. Don't worry though, I'm sure there's some gay porn available at the chain.

DSGTvegas · 1 year ago

As a mormon, not currently active and have differant view on political issues than most mormons, I am ashamed that the church has pushed this Prop 8. Yes! The chuch has supported the Prop 8 question not only in Cali but other states as well, correct?? However, I favor gay marriage because if two people want to be happy, what right do I have to tell two guys or two women that they can't marry!! Who are I or anyone to judge.....thats one thing that the mormon church teaches...Not to judge??? But before we point the finger at the mormon church, but aren't there other groups like the Catholic Church (also big in Utah) out there who also have had a hand in Prop 8 not just in California but other states. Boycott Utah if you will but remember this, just because 65% of Utah has a mormon population, doesn't mean all 65% of them voted or helped in Prop 8 and there is 45% of non-mormons, so why gig the whole state. I feel sorry for all the same sex couples out there..I favor you in getting married, I favor you if you want to save my ass during a time of war or when I need a back up during a traffic stop or at a domestic, come back me up, I won't look at you any differantly. The church did cross the line but don't blame Utah....if you do please come to Vegas....much more fun and exciting!

coug56 · 1 year ago

The Mormon church does not own Marriot hotels, a Mormon guy owns it. So no, the Mormon church doesn't make big bucks selling porn. Get your facts straight before you decide to spread ignorant/misleading hate fueled rumors.
BTW... it's pretty sexist to assume that only businessMEN can watch and enjoy porn. Way to feed a stereotype.

cjbrdwng · 1 year ago

This was in the thread you created for researching donors, but I thought I'd repost it here:

So the http://mormonsfor8.com/ does have donor lists in the Excel format. It has the names, states, and zip codes for each person, but not the address. But I am wondering, with the abilities of the internet, how hard could it be complete the spreadsheet, and find the actual street address for these people? How about instead of sending the Mormon church offices a postcard, we send EACH AND EVERYONE OF THESE BIGOTS A POSTCARD LETTING THEM KNOW WHAT SORT OF ASSHOLES WE THINK THEY ARE!!!!! AND HOW ABOUT INSTEAD OF A BOYCOTT OF UTAH, WE LET THESE BIGOTS KNOW THEY AREN'T WELCOME IN CALI!

Though, I'll tell you John, when I see these damn donor lists, it makes me mad that you ran a campaign that put those reverse-cell phone info-sellers out of business. We could use them right now.

Moondogg · 1 year ago

That's just sad. You belittle your cause when you resort to petty mudslinging and threats. Why do say that because people have beliefs that differ with yours they're bigots? I honestly don't understand why that tactic is so popular. I'm Mormon and I'll tell you right now I'm no bigot. I have ABSOLUTELY no ill will or negative feelings toward gays or lesbians. In fact, it's quite the contrary. Some of my very closest friends and even relatives are gay. We get along because we understand and embrace the reality that we have very differing viewpoints on many things in the world, and we don't focus on the things that divide us. I love them, they love me, and we are very dear friends.
I must admit, I take slight offense to your comment and hope that you can realize that people aren't bigots if they have different beliefs than you do.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

No, people aren't bigots if they have a different belief than you. They are bigots if they feel it necessary to use that belief to rip the rights out from under real people, who get hurt by them.

It's really easy to claim that you are polite (as in "Be polite", the Mormon mantra even as you do horrible things), but the people you and others like you who (assumedly) voted Yes on 8, or supported the cause in some say, do not deserve anyone to be polite to you. After all, you did ruin their families, hurt their children, destroyed their legal protections, and took away a right you get to enjoy whenever you feel like it. You don't get to take the moral high ground here, since what you did was incredibly immoral.

SillyMom · 1 year ago

Oh yeah! That'll work. Let's spread more hate! I'm a Californian, who didn't need a Mormon Prophet to tell me how to vote. In fact, I'm sure people voted because that's how they wanted to. Did you think we could actually think for ourselves? That maybe we do have friends and relatives who are gay, that we care about, but that we also want to protect the institution of marriage? That we actually respect each others' beliefs and rights? That we live in a democracy where everyone has a right to think and vote as they wish? You are the ones spreading hate and intolerance.
If more states and people continue to protect the institution of marriage, it will be because of your acts. Keep it up!

caerbannog · 1 year ago

So you weren't told how to vote by a Mormon prophet -- but I'll bet that you were told how to vote by a self-hating, closeted gay megachurch minister.

ManOnDog · 1 year ago

What exactly are you 'protecting the institution of marriage' from?

Arizonan · 1 year ago

California brought this upon themselves with their judges. If they hadn't overturned the WILL of the people this probably wouldn't have been put on the ballot.

scottinsf · 1 year ago

It is the duty of our Supreme Court to interpret our laws based upon our state Constitution, and that is exactly what they did. Know what you're talking about before opening your mouth idiot.

ManOnDog · 1 year ago

It's that old 'radical judges' routine again.

An_American_Karol · 1 year ago

Those pesky Constitutionalists, you can’t trust em../snark

kevinbgoode · 1 year ago

Let me know when it's time to vote on your marriage, bucko.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Yes, it was the California Supreme Court judges who redefined marriage almost 60 years ago when they ruled that the laws prohibiting interracial marriage was unconstitutional. The US Supreme Court agreed, 19 years later. I am sure that in 1948, there were those who objected to that court ruling, just as you do now. I trust constitutional scholars to make decisions about 'rights.'

scottinsf · 1 year ago

My husband and I marched here in SF earlier tonight. From Civic Center to home. All the news outlets keep saying 1000 or a "few thousand". They're all full of shit. It was at minimum 10,000. And there are still crowds marching. I've marched enough times to know my crowd estimates. And why are there four helicopters still hovering overhead almost four hours after we got home if it was such a puny protest?

AP can try to spin this like it was nothing but people are pissed!

ManOnDog · 1 year ago

Good, because the national media is really under reporting these stories. It's nice to hear what's actually going on.

FunMe · 1 year ago

Trust me - these protests will be ignored. BUT NOT FOR LONG.

That is why it is so important for these protests continue to grow and grow. The YesOn8 people who regret will eventually voting that way join our camp and the majority will understand and agree on EQUALITY FOR ALL. Period.

Wasn't it like this with anti-war protesters at the beginning? Little coverage, but the more these protests continued, there was NO WAY they could be ignored anymore.

An_American_Karol · 1 year ago

I knew you would be there, scott. "smile"

SebastianCA · 1 year ago

Why are they BSing the numbers? There were thousands and thousands of people. It was a sea of people. I can't believe they have the nerve to say 1000. Why are they trying to underplay this? I still see the helicopters at 11pm from a protest that began at 5:30.

Moondogg · 1 year ago

According to the news here in Salt Lake City, it was between 2,500 and 3,500 people. It was quite the demonstration.

tnick · 1 year ago

Did you see the same video I saw, to me it looked to be around 100.

eamonsean · 1 year ago

Is there a site that is co-ordinating actions and protests at this point? I'm particularly interested in the Marriott and Mormon business boycotting, since I'm on the East Coast. I also saw on JoeMyGod that there's talk about another March on Washington. Where's this talk taking place?

I guess what I'm really looking for, hoping for, is some leadership from our gay and lesbian movement organizations. Creating some space and some opportunity for more of us to get involved, etc. At this moment, HRC should be in our mailboxes, on our phones, and have us wired into activities. But they seem, as usual, absent, lost in the beltway. Maybe shopping for inaugural gowns?

jharp · 1 year ago

Keep at em gentlemen.

You've got 50 year old married mid western men who travel the country and will happily let it be known that Utah is off our list of options on your team. And our wives and children.

Keep us up to date.

Especially where we can cost them some dough. Only because I believe that is what makes them listen.

Great work. I am very much supportive.

An_American_Karol · 1 year ago

Thank you. We need to make people understand this is a civil rights issue.

jharp · 1 year ago

You are very welcome.

Though it is you who deserves the thanks. Your message is being heard loud and clear.

kevinbgoode · 1 year ago

Thank you. I am all for resisting religious tyranny.

ballerinaX · 1 year ago

I was there with my 11 yr old son to support our friends and family, This is the first video I found to give you an Idea of thr scene
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KmLATGyDcvo&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KmLATGyDcvo&hl=en&fs=1&color1=0xe1600f&color2=0xfebd01" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

monitor · 1 year ago

Post a link to the youtube.

ballerinaX · 1 year ago

oops first time posting here..my apologies

monitor · 1 year ago

No apology needed. Thanks for the vid and for your (and your son's!) activism.

Awesome to see this in SLC.

ballerinaX · 1 year ago

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KmLATGyDcvo

this might work better.... Rocky Andersen spoke along with 2 openly gay members of our state legislature. We marched around the temple twice. 2000+ people attended on 24 hours notice.

kevinbgoode · 1 year ago

Scapegoated? Do they mean, like they've been doing with my constitutional rights in state after state and using their "religious" cult of superstitious thieves to assualt our government? No...say it ain't so. . .

This group of professional scam artists wouldn't know the truth if it slapped them in the face. They will say and do anything to feign innocence, which should be more than enough to prove there is nothing "Christian" about this dominionist organization.
And they don't need to worry about the "religious" Right and the Catholic Church. They'll get the spotlight in good time.

These are not people with any concept of ethics or morals beyond the imposition of dominionist rule.

Moondogg · 1 year ago

Have you researched any of the humanitarian activities of the Mormon religion? Do you have any idea how much good they do in the world? They are GOOD PEOPLE and I applaud them for supporting their beliefs. They devote millions of dollars and hours each year to humanitarian projects that literally save lives. They give aid to countries all over the world, and I'm sure you had no idea because they don't broadcast it to the entire world. They do it not for recognition, but because they believe in helping people in need.
I hate to tell you this, but it's not only the Mormons who oppose gay marriage. The Mormons form only a sliver of the population of California, not even enough to make a small dent in the vote, so blaming Mormons for Proposition 8 does nothing more than illustrate the desperation of the gay and lesbian community. They NEED someone to blame because they can't accept the fact that the majority of people view marriage as being between a man and a woman. It's not just Mormons.
So blame on. Vilify the Mormon church as much as you want. Let the fact that they have beliefs that differ from your own fuel your hatred. Continue with your BLATANTLY HYPOCRITICAL hate filled demagogic banter. Say what you want, but it still doesn't change the fact that the majority of Americans still have some traditional values that differ drastically from your own.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Well, kudos for saving the world. Of course, this thread is about Prop 8, which has shown them to be horribly bigoted and hateful.

It is not hypocritical to be angry with a group of people who heavily assisted the removal of one of your rights. Indeed, the anger is showing just haw important that right is to them. Instead, it IS hypocritical to wonder why "those people" would treat you so poorly after you, again, immorally destroyed their marriages.

The fact is, that without the Mormon money, lying ads, and untiring bigotry Prop 8 most likely would not have passed. Yes, there are other backers. That is not what this thread is about. It is about LDS and Utah. Don't worry, there is plenty of blame to spread around.

RobertnAz · 1 year ago

My Partner and I have decided to cancel our 5 day camping trip into Southern Utah starting this weekend and will instead stay in Arizona, south of Flagstaff. We will get our supplies from there instead and keep our money our of that hate mongoring State of Utah.

For now, this is the best we can do, but rest assured, no more money or support from us to them.

Shame on those Hate Mongoring Mormons.

Robert

bigG · 1 year ago

My family and I are now planning a Utah vacation. I'll do my best to support the state from unfair attacks. I also plan to boycott a local gay owned business. You want to supress free speech, let's see how you like having yours suppressed.

FunMe · 1 year ago

The Mormon Church and Utah are the new PERSONAS NON GRATAS.

They broke the IRS laws by illegally getting involved in political activities in ANOTHER state, sinned according to the BIBLE by LYING on brochures saying Obama supported Prop8 when he didn't and pretty much inflicted unto themselves the most disastrous public relations in decades.

Hell hath no fury ...

Moondogg · 1 year ago

Hate Mongering Mormons? Come on, Robert. Aren't you making a hateful blanket assessment of an entire group of people by saying that, just as you accuse the Mormons of doing to gays and lesbians?
Don't make the Mormons or Utah your scapegoat in this mess. You should boycott Disneyland to show your displeasure with California. After all, wasn't it California that voted on Proposition 8? Do you really think that Mormons influenced the majority of the state of California to vote the way they did? Seems to me that gays and lesbians are looking for an easy target to blame and have singled out the Mormon church because they're scared to take on the real opposition of gay marriage....the MAJORITY OF CALIFORNIANS!!

nobama_forthismama · 1 year ago

Agreed with Moondogg.
And btw, Robert, there's probably just as many Mormons in Flagstaff as there is in Southern Utah.
Shame on you for spreading hate by saying "Hate Mongoring Mormons."

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Well, a very small majority of Californians who were assaulted by yes on 8 lies and misinformation and robocalls moments prior to going to polls, mainly funded by the LDS church. So, yes, you are technically correct, but completely wrong.

Ibeme · 1 year ago

Yes. Why don't we just keep spreading the hate to everybody. Hate the gays. Hate the Mormons. Hate the world.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

Oh, I see. The Mormons say that we are immoral and try to prevent us from getting married. We object to this and somehow that is hate. I guess by your standards, Martin Luther King and Caesar Chavez were full of hate too.

Ibeme · 1 year ago

I don't recall MLK or Chavez targeting innocent people because of the state that they live in. Last I checked, ski resorts and Sundance were not owned by the Mormon church. Sure the state may be majority Mormon, but what about those that aren't. There was a protest of several thousand people in Salt Lake City supporting No on 8. You are trying to punish those by boycotting a state. I call that hate.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Then you have no concept of the word hate, and you shoud be ignored.

letitsnow · 1 year ago

Okay, obviously the LDS church was WAY outta line with their support of Prop 8, but what does that have to do with Sundance or Utah tourism? Honestly, if no one goes to the resorts (fat chance) and they have to cut back jobs, it will be the young college kids who were protesting for equal rights tonight in Salt Lake City who will suffer. Don't punish Utah more because of Mormons. The non-Mormons have it hard enough as it is.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

One must take a stand in a case like this. I for one will not be supporting Utah with my money. I refuse to visit the South for its politics as well. Will individuals be hurt? No doubt, but if my money is worth it, those individuals will force change. Economic power is the only real force of change an individual has outside of the voting booth. My money will not be spent in a region so mired in ideology I find abhorrant.

word11 · 1 year ago

Did you know that it was the voters in California that caused the prop to pass? Not the LDS church. Mormons do not make up more than half of the voters in California either, so don't blame them. There were millions who voted, with their own opinions and freedom to make their own decision. There were Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, any other religion, and I'm sure some Atheists who voted for it. Placing blame on one group is plain ignorance.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Were you here? Did you see the ads and the signs and the lies? Did you get the robocalls that were directed at the minority neighborhoods telling them Obama said vote yes on 8?

If not, shut up. You have no context. If you were here, you are full of dumb.

Either way, this is a blog about one group, not all the groups. You take your stands where you can, and that is what this blog has decided to do.

hookem25 · 1 year ago

Why can Planned Parenthood (which is a 501(c)3 the same as LDS) endorse a candidate for president but a church can't take a stand of a moral issue?? Seems like once again liberals have a double standard. Let their own side break the rules but any perceived law breaking on the right and you have to scream at the top of your lungs?

The California Supreme court never should have taken a stand on the law; their job is to interpret the law and not to make it. I'm glad I moved away from there. Why don't you try and fix your economic problems (having to borrow money from a government you San Fransisco libbys hate) before complaining about a church and their tax exempt status.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

We can agree on something: We are glad you moved away from California too. We do not need yet another ignorant idiot that cannot grasp the role of the courts.

sublimee78 · 1 year ago

As an active member of the LDS church, I'd like to say a few words on this subject. Our church believes in marriage. Marriage and families are huge priorities to us. We believe that marriage between a man and a woman can and should be a sacred union. We believe that marriage between a man a woman is a huge part of God's plan for us. So you'd better believe that if we see people messing with this plan, we feel pressed into action. It has nothing to do hate. It has nothing to do with bigotry. We believe in love. I believe a man can love another man, and I believe a woman can love another woman. But our faith and those principles that our church is founded on, cannot bend to the winds of public opinion; that's just not how it works. So while it may seem cruel, I can assure you that the LDS church loves and respects everybody. While it's true that there are stories out there about how so-and-so had an awful experience with the church, it was more than likely an awful experience with a member of the church, and that is unfortunate.

coug56 · 1 year ago

Yes... but how many times is it said from the pulpit that the Church leadership encourage its membership to take part in the democratic process. They come right out and say that they WILL NOT endorse a specific candidate or dictate the way its members should vote, they only encourage the congregation to be vote.

bigG · 1 year ago

Why is it wrong for a church to ask it's members to participate in the democratic process? How many black churches did exactly that to get Obama elected? Oh and by the way, you'll find that it's exactly that population segment that voted 70% against gay marriage. Maybe you should blame Obama.

coug56 · 1 year ago

You misunderstood. I was just trying to be sure that people understood that the church emphasizes the importance of being a part of the process, but is careful not to tell people how to vote. I am definitely with you... I was raised Mormon.

FunMe · 1 year ago

WOW, Salt Lake City people are now supporting California and ANGRY at the Mormon Church. Great!

Check out this article:
http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_10929992

" A sea of signs in City Creek Park, where the march began, screamed out messages including, "I didn't vote on your marriage," "Mormons once persecuted . . . Now persecutors," and "Jesus said love everyone." Others read, "Proud of my two moms" and "Protect traditional marriage. Ban divorce." "

I think these protests are going to get bigger and bigger.

We are living in VERY intersting times. This is HISTORY in the making.

And what is great is that the young people, are now having enthusiasm for causes. FANTASTIC! If you look at the polls, the young people voting NO on 8 more than any other subgroup. We are witnessing a reawakening of street protests, active politics and more.

My instincts have never failed me. We may have "lost" - but I truly believe we will regain MARRIAGE EQUALITY sooner rather than later.

These protests will speed up the process.

I'm living it and loving it!

bigG · 1 year ago

Don't get me wrong, you guys are amusing, but I don't know why you think the Mormon church cares what you think. It's crazy rich, and doesn't fold under pressure. Look back at history and you'll find many instances of them going against the grain. They don't care, even a little, that you march around a temple. Like I said though, it's sure amusing to watch you all with your little displays of "activism".. what a waste.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

I disagree. This is not your grandfather's Mormon church. They are now a very corporate entity. It is like the news media. Before they were owned by GE, Murdoch, et. al. they actually reported the news. But then they became entangled in their own corporate policies and greed and they lost touch of what they were supposed to be doing. I believe that the Mormon church has lost some of its identity to corporate policy and greed as well. Hitting them in the pocketbook may make them reverse their policies against gays and lesbians, just as they did with their policies against blacks in the 1970s (the mark of Cain). Regardless, I am glad that we are amusing to you. Amusing is a big step ahead of hating us.

ThinkForAChange · 1 year ago

Believe what you want. If you really intend on making an impact on the financials of the LDS Church you're going to have to think bigger than boycotting Sundance and skiing Utah. What about all the other Mormons in all the other states and countries? The boycott won't affect their finances significantly to make a difference. So, do what makes you feel better, but in the end you're wasting your lives on this plan.

todabeat · 1 year ago

We black people don't hate you, we just voted 70% to say this is the way we want it to be. if you don't like it move to where they do let you get married. you been telling us that for 400 years in other terms. If you want to protest somebody come down to watts and march and see what happens. you want to blame somebody blame us. We'll show you how to march. We never had a rainbow sign until Barack. And dont be trying to hijack our history and make it yours, you aint got nothing on us. You people insult the memory of Malcolm, Martin and Sis Parks. get it through your head, even when we got our civil rights we still could not vote, you could always vote. Got it?

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

Amazing how you bring it down to just the vote. Discrimination runs so much deeper than that and you should know it. You actually insult the memories of our civil rights leaders. Hijack your history? Do you have a monolopy on civil rights and protests? Let me remind you, as you seem to want to pick and choose your history, that white racists voted to make things the way they wanted as well for a great number of years. Perhaps we should listen to those people who want to kill our president elect because of his race? Should those opinions, simply because they are a majority in ertain areas, carry weight? I certainly hope not...

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Actually, they do fold under pressure - that is the only reason they no longer practice polygamy. They were threatened by the feds, and they backed down. Guess God didn't want it bad enough, huh? Or did they run out of secret gold tablets with the answers on them?

ThinkForAChange · 1 year ago

Survey says.... Wrong answer! Protests in SLC don't change votes in California.

todabeat · 1 year ago

Over 70% of my community voted for Prop 8. My pastor told us to vote our mind which we did and I hear without us black people this proposition could not have passed. If the gay people want to protest anyone why don't you come down and protest in my hood. We know about protesting we been doing it for 400 years and we will show how to protest and don't compare our struggle with yours. You are way out of line if you come to where we live with that bs. Leave the mormons alone they are cool people. I've been to the gay rights parade and man there is no way i would bring my family to that party. It was one sick parade. Thats what made us black people say no way man they aint getting my vote.

By the way to all those people and mormons and gays who voted for Barack we thank yall.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

Discrimination is the same fight no matter who is on the end of hate. Your argument against gay people was once used against slaves. Inhuman savages if you read the primary sources from the 1800s, and those were the more benign references. The gay struggle is the same, and it's a shame when those who were once on the receiving end of hate become the oppressors when granted the opportunity.

todabeat · 1 year ago

Man you are nuts. show me where in this country gay people were hijacked from ones country and forced to work for nothing in another country, lynched, burned to death, sold to white people, separated from your children, denied the right to vote, forced to sit in the back, drink from only the ugly drinking fountains, forced to sit in the back of buses denied the right to own property. Man dont be coming down to my part of town with that bs and place that junk at my doorstep. you got your civil unions, you can vote, you can own property. get real.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Also known as "I got mine, screw you."

Nice. Thanks for the support.

todabeat · 1 year ago

What are talking about? i'll bet you got far more than me sucka. You still got you civil union you just want me to again give up what I finally have a right to vote for and NOW AGAIN you want to tell me my vote don't count! We aint doing that no more chump. We have spoken live it with it. You want everything even my right to say no..no way, them days are over. We have Barack now. got it

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Hmm, since you voted against gay marriage, yes your vote counts. For hatred and bigotry. Sad.

And the victimhood doesn't work with me. You got the right to vote years ago. Gays have never had the right to marry. (There are black gays too. They deserve both the right to vote and the right to marry.)

todabeat · 1 year ago

you got no idea what you are talking about. you think cause the civil right amendment passed we could vote in the south where I was from? your crazy. but that aint the point. we voted 70% to say this is the way it is going to be and now you want to call me names cause you don't agree with my vote? that aint the way it works. you still have your civil unions that is the same thing now you want to cheapen the civil right movements by saying your idea is the same as my peoples struggle. you are nuts. Like I said before - Man you are nuts. show me where in this country gay people were hijacked from ones country and forced to work for nothing in another country, lynched, burned to death, sold to white people, separated from your children, denied the right to vote, forced to sit in the back, drink from only the ugly drinking fountains, forced to sit in the back of buses denied the right to own property. Man dont be coming down to my part of town with that bs and place that junk at my doorstep. you got your civil unions, you can vote, you can own property. get real. If you really believe what you say about your civil rights then all you gays and lesbians come on down to the hood and bring your protest signs against the 70% who said what we mean. No way. Come down our way instead of picking on them mormons who are way cool people. Bring it on if you got the stuff.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Well, I didn't call you names, so lets start there. There is a huge difference between telling someone they are a bigot and telling them they performed a bigoted act. If that is something you can't see, then I'm not sure anything I say will matter.

Next, civil unions are not the same. They don't confer rights the way marriage does, even if they are supposed to. Even if they were I just have one phrase to say to you - "Separate but Equal." That one should be pretty familiar.

Your struggle was your struggle. It may not be the same struggle, but it is the same type of struggle - the right to be seen as more than what you do, or the color of your skin. It is Civil Rights, whether you want to admit it or not. And voting against Civil Rights is doubly shaming if you ever needed any help getting them from people who weren't like you - i.e. black.

So, yes. You performed a bigoted and hateful act by helping to destroy legal marriages, disrupt families, revoke insurances, harm the children of those unions, and tell them they are less of a person than you are. Congratulations. You have learned nothing from your personal struggle.

Recall · 1 year ago

Dude, gay people weren't allowed to have sex until 2003 in many states.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

As has been said before, learn your history. The struggles of gay people reflect the same hatred, violence, and oppression as any other group, yours included. Enough said...

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

only one major flaw in your argument, black is not a behavior...sex is. No one HAS to have sex, homosexual or otherwise. You don't want to be treated badly for your actions, don't perform the acts. Your argument could be used by pedophiles and wife beaters for that matter. Should we legalize those acts? A black person could never change the fact that they are black.

cornholio · 1 year ago

Hopefully not in my lifetime

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

What a loaded statement.

Nylund · 1 year ago

I totally understand wanting to boycott any LDS sanctioned things and its within your right to do so, but I question if that must extend to the entire state of Utah as you've previously stated. Sure, the state and the LDS church have strong ties, but that does not mean every business and resident in Utah should be viewed as the enemy. Punishing everyone who happens to live or do business in the same state that the LDS calls home borders on collective punishment. That is not a good thing.

And I say this as a Californian who is mightily pissed/saddened that Prop 8 passed. I also happen to be privy to some inside knowledge at the CA Supreme Court which leads me to believe that prop 8 will get shot down (not sure what I'm allowed to say about these details, so I'll stay mum).

trto · 1 year ago

If the LDS used its premises to organize against Prop 8 then those grumbling against the LDS would have a case. Show show me your proof or accept the vote of the majority.

Truth is most Americans, thankfully, know there is room in their hearts to accept homosexuals as good people but criticize the lifestyle that homosexuals have chosen. Homosexuals are free to chose that lifestyle. And the majority of Americans are free to also express the belief that such a lifestyle is not in our interests as a country or as a union of people.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

I learned this one recently:

Truth is most Americans, thankfully, know there is room in their hearts to accept Mormons as good people but criticize the lifestyle that Mormons have chosen. Mormons are free to chose that lifestyle. And the majority of Americans are free to also express the belief that such a lifestyle is not in our interests as a country or as a union of people.

Ah, that's better.

lucky hussein · 1 year ago

nice ;)

tjenkin · 1 year ago

If I can quote a leader of the Church of Latter Day Saints "While those who disagree with our position on Proposition 8 have the right to make their feelings known, it is wrong to target the Church and its sacred places of worship for being part of the democratic process," Farah said.
The problem is "The Church" cannot be part of the Democratic process. Separation of Church and State. This very quote and the actions calling of members to give monies for a political defeat or victory of any candidate or legislation is a direct violation. A person can preach all they want about any issue but they cross the line when they use the Church as a political campaign headquarters for political gains. The political gain was to use their own viewpoint of faith and impose that on others.

ThinkForAChange · 1 year ago

Like most American sheeple, you don't have a grasp on the legal documents that exist. There is NO legal document that talks about the "separation of church and state", there is only the statement that the government will not support a single religion to the detriment of others, i.e. no state government like the Anglican Church in England or Catholicism in Italy. All of the First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The phrase "separation of church and state" comes from a personal letter from Jefferson(?) to the Danites (Danbury Baptists). The LDS Church, as an entity, paid a paltry 2000 dollars or so to cover costs for leadership that went down to talk with people. It was NOT a donation and therefore, no lawyer, no matter how rabidly obsessed will bring a suit against the LDS church and actually get a hearing. There was no violation. There will be no suit. Get over it. If you feel it is improper, start working to get it on the ballot again.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

Like most Americans who have not studied their history in the same depth as most historians have, there are indeed several references beyond personal letters about the separation of church and state. The issue has been addressed in several treaties over the centuries, as well as the clear statement in the 'Treaty of Paris' stating that the US is NOT a Christian nation. As for a legal stance, you are correct that is none as proving exactly what that separation is in reality has been the tricky part.

cornholio · 1 year ago

Nice try, but this won't stop them from spending thousands on lawyers since they LOST

livinmy2ndchance · 1 year ago

HERE IS ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF THE CLOSEMINDED LEADING WHAT THEY CALL A RIGHTOUES MARCH ON HATRED. WELL HERE IS MY SUGESTION, STICK A 2-WAY MIRROR BETWEEN YOURSELF AND THE YOUR SO CALLED OFFENDER AND YOU WILL SEE 2 SETS OF PEOPLE FIGHTING FROM DIFFERENT SIDES BUT FOR THERE RIGHTS TO BELIVE WHAT THEY BELIVE. I DONT BELIVE IN THE MORMON CHURCH BUT I DO BELIVE IN THE INSTITUTION OF MARRAGE BEING BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN! IF YOU DONT LIKE MY OPINON ITS NOT ME WHO CAME UP WITH IT, ITS GOD HIMSELF IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT GO TO HIM. I LOVE MY COUNTRY AND I AM A VETERAN OF DESERT STORM AND I FOUGHT THAT BATTLE FOR THE RIGHT FOR THE PRO GAY MARRAIGE AND THE PEOPLE SUCH AS MYSELF WHO DONT BELIVE IN IT TO VOICE THERE OPINION. SO DONT TRY TO CALL THE MORMONS OR UTAH A HATE STATE OR WHAT EVER REALLY YOUR SPEAKING OF YOURSELVES IN YOUR ONE SIDED FIT THE WORLD INTO MY OWN LITTLE BUBBLE OPINION. SO FIGHT FOR WHAT YOU BELIVE IN BUT DONT TURN OUT LIKE OUR PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN AND JUST THROW VERBAL BLOWS. GOD WILL JUDGE THIS COUNTRY ONE DAY AND THE TRUTH WILL STAND.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

God would NEVER use all caps. Repent or be cast into the inferno. . .

bigG · 1 year ago

Gary, I haven't agreed with much you've said on this board, but I DO agree with that.

Gary SF · 1 year ago

God and the abuse of the 'caps lock' have brought us together.

FunMe · 1 year ago

The weekend protests:

Saturday November 8

San Diego
12 Noon | 1st Avenue & University
March to 30th Street & University Avenue in North Park.

Laguna Beach,
5:30 p.m. | City Hall
March to Main Beach for candlelight vigil.
Parking available at Act V parking lot at 1900 Laguna Canyon Road Shuttle busses will be running every 15 minutes. Bring signs, flags, candles (or flashlights), whistles, and dress for a cool evening.

Los Angeles
6 p.m. | Sunset Junction in Silver Lake
Sunset Blvd and Santa Monica Blvd

Sunday, November 9

Sacramento, California.
1 p.m. to 4 p.m. | Capitol West Steps

San Jose
2 p.m. | Billy DeFrank LGBT Community Center
938 The Alameda
Questions? gloria.defrank@gmail.com

cornholio · 1 year ago

yeah, my question is why not just accept the fact YOU LOST

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Well, because a fundamental right was ripped away from them, destroying their families, hurting their children, throwing their benefits and tax status into limbo, and telling them hey are not a whole person.

I suppose that may be difficult to see, as you seem to think it was some sort of high school track meet that allowed one group to take home a trophy, but no, this was the destruction of families and the reduction of a whole group of people to second class status.

Does that answer your question? (I suspect the answer is no, because you just want to hurl insults and laugh at the gays, but I'm trying to help you reject ignorance here.)

cheetos · 1 year ago

So...all this uproar over same-sex marriage is about protecting children? Really?

"Leaders of the successful Proposition 8 campaign say an unusual coalition of evangelical Christians, Mormons and Roman Catholics built a majority at the polls Tuesday by harnessing the organizational muscle of churches to a mainstream message about what school children might be taught about gay relationships if the ban failed."
http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story....

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

Interesting ... the Catholic Church has, for decades, been so concerned about the welfare of children that they have allowed child molestors to go unpunished ... and it's really all about the bunny with two moms book...

marriedgay · 1 year ago

I am very angry and am no fan of organized religion or the Mormon church. But I will issue a word of warning and advice. Beware of frontal attacks on religious groups. They thrive on this and will unite and close ranks. The solutions are to attack from the inside. People must be exposed and discredited. Gay people in the closet and part of the churches that are targeting gays must be outed without mercy. If they choose choose to align themselves with those who would steal our freedoms then they must loose their protection. If every gay person would out all the gay clergy and church leaders it would cause chaos. May I remind you that the Catholic church is complicit in this marriage issue. They contributed millions. If all the gay catholic priests were outed and then kicked out of the church they would be in a world of hurt. They already have an acute shortage of clergy. Say no to frontal attacks. Discredit from within.

utahneighbor · 1 year ago

Well....growing up mormon I was lucky to get my eyes opened early on and got away. If you really want to see a interesting web site ya might try http://www.Josephlied.com it has alot of reading material growing up mormon I found very interesting. Who ever set this up did quite a bit of research and made a lot of sense. (well thats my 2 cents worth anyway)

gar1314 · 1 year ago

Listen, I'm not much of a blogger as a matter of fact this is the fist time I have said anything but maybe somebody can explain to me why when a person or a church stands up for something it believes in, people call them all kinds of names and make all kinds of threats. I mean if a group of people practicing their own religion want to support one thing or another shouldn't they have a right to do that?

Monitor_One · 1 year ago

Not at the expense of someone else.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

There is a distinct separation of church and state in this country. A religion can believe and practice almost anything, but those beliefs should not spread outside of the individuals who choose to practice that faith. I am a devoted pagan and my higher power is the natural world around me. Yet my home is not tax-exempt as a religious facility, in spite of the worship in my sacred grove. I would never force my belief in the protection of the environment as sacred on anyone else ... they can simply die in the ice age when my goddes proves far more powerful than theirs...

Off on a tangent, but the original point still stands - keep faith out of politics.

centwaman · 1 year ago

I think that your "separation of church and state" angle is a bit of a stretch. Not really like what the founding fathers experienced, or wanted to protect us from. Calm down a bit and think a bit more rationally. You sound like my wife when she gets all riled up.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

You sound like a classic conservative who has no true understanding of the 'founding fathers.' Study this from a historian's point of view and it is amazing what you might learn. But in order to do that, one must first be willing to acept the challenge of critical thought and analysis of one's entrenched beliefs. Something I find most people quite unwilling to do.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

The founding father never intended for religion and faith to be excluded from everyday life, political or otherwise. The letter Jefferson wrote espousing the wall the separation between church and state, was not intended to even intimate that. His letter was sent to assure a concerned congregation that the rumors being spread that the federal government was planning on establishing a national religion, were false. The founders were far more concerned with keeping government out of religion then in keeping religion out of government.

cornholio · 1 year ago

No they should not have that right since we are dealing with gays, and all LOGIC goes out the window.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Oh, I love this.

No they should not have that right since we are dealing with Mormons, and all LOGIC goes out the window.

Man, that is just AWESOME!

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

BTW, I find it hilarious that you took a screen name that implies a forced act of sodomy. I think you are telling us a bit more about yourself than you intended.

Chino_Blanco · 1 year ago

Here are some fresh YouTubes of the Salt Lake City protest:

I. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i52JL5_N-XE

II. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdWsJcteW4Q

III. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02P3g3L9m-Q

IV. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXFX9abHyNs

V. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgmXHXLu0s8

tjenkin · 1 year ago

While Californian's were the ones who voted, the voters themselves should have the right not to be influenced by another State or their peoples. The Mormon Church went on to say they sent thousands of volunteers into California. That is not Democracy by any standard and violates the integrity of all State elections if allowed to hold up. I'm not Gay and honestly I wouldn't have voted on the issue one way or the other. Plus I'm not from California. But I am certainly frighten to see how a faith ideology (Church) can invade different States to push their agenda and it should frighten everyone. People should be allowed to vote on local or State issues without outside interference.

ThinkForAChange · 1 year ago

Wow, I can't believe how naive your statement is... Washington DC is filled to overflowing with lobbyists... and there are lobbyists from one state in another state trying to arrange beneficial circumstances. There is an entire industry where "invaders" go and talk with the power brokers or the people to get them to do something.

nobama_forthismama · 1 year ago

But it would be ok to receive outside help for the gay side?
Christians can't have an opinion of their beliefs if they don't live within certain boundaries?

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

I am so tired of ANY church wading hip-deep into the political arena, and then claiming tax-exempt status as a non-profit/ non-political organization. I cannot believe that MY state has allowed religion to override common sense. We as Americans must get over this religious obsession, or we will continue to fall farther and farther behind other first world nations. Stem cell research, civil rights, abortion, a Vp candidate blessed against witchcraft on the campaign trail ... the list could go on. We are beginning to look like a backward bunch of fanatics from the Middle Ages. I know - let's just bring back the Inquisition while we are at it! This is the 21st century, and some people need reminded. Let's keep religion where it belongs - personal and OUT of politics or they lose their $$$$$...

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

Unfortunately for you, government has no power to remove the tax immune status of churches. They can remove the tax exempt status from corporations acting as churches. But that would not eliminate the tax immune status the church, itself, has, nor remove the tax deductibility of donations made to that church, whether incorporated or not.

And please do NOT infer that you have common sense. Common sense would not advocate the immoral and destructively consequential choices most people make in this world today.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

First I must address the issue of the word 'immune.' Churches are not immune from taxes;' they are exempt. Let's begin on the correct terminology. Second, the goverment does indeed have the ability to remove tx-exemption, hot just from religion, but from anything it so chooses. The government can also remove the tax deduction status of religious donations. It's called re-writing the tax laws and it's done all the time. Next let's address the word 'immoral.' The denotation and connotation of this word are dramatically different and it is the connotation with which I am concerned here. Do you imply your connotation or mine? Perhaps a third party? If we cannot agree on a connotative definition, then perhap we should not be making sweeping changes to laws based upon such a shaky premise.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

First off, you're wrong about tax immunity. Churches are not required to
file for 501(c)3 tax exempt status because they are not require by the very
nature of the Establishment Clause to PAY taxes. Government, by your very
argument, would be able to establish or extinguish any church it so wishes
by taxation, if it were permitted to do so. Therefore, by LAW, churches are
not required to pay taxes.

The only thing that requires a church to file for 501(c)3 status is the fact
that a church chooses to establish a corporate veil over it for, as some
would argue, protection against law suits (although well established court
cases have shown that members of a church cannot bring suit against a
church). The other reason they are counseled into incorporating is because
uninformed counselors tell them contributions to them are only deductible if
they incorporate. But that is not true either. Nor can the government
re-write the law of the constitution to permit people of one church to
deduct donations while not permitting contributors to another church to do
the same...once again the establishment clause.

Lastly, the definition of what is moral or immoral, in a societal sense, is
established by the people. We have established that it is morally okay to
kill an unborn child. We have established that it is morally wrong for an
adult to have sex with a minor. For that matter, we have permitted
government to establish that it is wrong to drive a car faster than the
posted limit. We have afforded government the power to establish laws
dictating behavior and we have done so ourselves through our votes. You
don't like the results of this vote. I don't like other laws that control
my behavior. But I accept them.

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

if your right was taken away to marry you would be outraged right now if you said no, you would be lying

hummmreally · 1 year ago

gar1314--- we all have to answer to someone.... eventually... we don't have the right to do as we please just because we have the ability to do so... that is the difference between a civil and uncivilized society.... if we don't have to answer to any type of authority, then there is no reason to not just murder someone who you disagree with...

I just can't get over why gay people have to identify themselves by their sexuality.... and act as if therefore they should be in a different category. If you want to live a life of something that is clearly stated as immoral, well then so be it and it will you who will have to answer for your actions, whether you acted upon your sexual tendencies or not -- just like sexually active unmarried heterosexual persons will have to do, I just don't think that it is important to let others know your sexual preferences in order for someone to decide if they like you or not, which I think most gay people think they have to establish right off the bat in a conversation...

in the end you do have to answer for your actions.... whether you like it or not... there aren't any drowning atheists.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

Immoral? By your definition? Not by the faith that I believe in. But lest I forget, Christians do not believe that there are any others faiths outside of their own. Grow up and get out of the Dark Ages. It's your hell, you burn in it...

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

it was passed twice by the state senate and the assembly. no one got kicked out and and the Governor agreed with it. he did not get kicked. and we have kicked out our people before for doing stuff we did not want. trust me they would be out. I think we where the only ones that have recalled our our official's

utahneighbor · 1 year ago

to coug56....you might google....Sidewalk in front of ZCMI Mall sold to the LDS Church, if I remember right it was around 8-10 million. They wanted to stop the protests in front of the mall by buying the sidewalk. Well some protesters were arrested and went to court, the church lost, because of it's a public right of way or something. So you never know what they will spend their money on, 8-10million for a 50 yard (if that) sidewalk is pretty spendy. But on the up side..the City of Salt Lake made a lot of money for a very small investment.

realistman · 1 year ago

somebody better do there research. the LDS church ownes the mall, they had an agreement with the city to build a walk way. it was the churches understanding they owned the rights to the walk way. but it was determined later that it was not true. the walkway was not bought to stop protesting it was bought to make access to the mall better. stoping protests was a plus

cheetos · 1 year ago

Lifestyle choice. I see that repeated so often by so many. What's so difficult about wrapping one's mind around the simple truth that there is no 'lifestyle' and there is no 'choice' involved. I'm not gay, I get it...why can't/won't others?

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

your kidding about the dog. right tell me you are. its called common seance. I cant believe you are referencing the dog to how people are being treated as second class citizens.
wow you are the immature
and tell me again why we are voting on peoples rights here I cant believe this lol

SoLAME · 1 year ago

Their "right" was given to them through the back door (enjoy the pun), and that is not constitutional. It should have never been given in the first place.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

California (I cannot comment on other states) does indeed allow for the court to grant certain civil rights. It is not neccessary for the state constitution to do so. The state Supreme Court cannot override the constitution, but where there is no clearly defined precendent; the courts can step in.

mirror · 1 year ago

WELL John,
You must have hit a nerve because you've a Mormon employed PR firm working overtime trolling and concern trolling your blog comments! (Its freakin hard to read its so dense with troll turds)

Good job guys!

Face it - if you bankroll a campaign to tear apart people's families and turn them into second class citizens, you should expect an outraged reaction. What part of "tear apart people's families" and "turn them into second class citizens" don't these Mormons understand? Yes, it is political activity, but it is vicious hateful political activity.

And the gripe about the Mormon church engaging in political activity and lobbying isn't being discussed as a separation of church and state issue, but rather a question of why they should be able to keep their tax exempt status.

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

the point was they did it and they survived the next election and no one said anything then and it made news. when that happens here it is in the constitution passed house and senate then let happened by Governor what else do you need lol wow

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

oh, crap some one said something about the tax exempt, good one they must not lose that one

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

screw every one else life up if they cant get the tax exemption lol

tjenkin · 1 year ago

From someone who lives in one of the most conservative States in America, I believe in the Constitution and Bill of rights. I believe that as a voter in local issues I should have the right not to be influenced or interfered with by others in another State. Religious based or not. If I wanted to live in their State with the laws they have passed for their residents, I would move there. How this stands when Sate integrity was violated as well as voter integrity is beyond me.

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

but remember they went to obama, not as conservative as they once were lol

SMP · 1 year ago

This whole "marriage" thing is screwed up from the start.

"Marriage" is a religious union and so, by definition, cannot be sanctioned or condemned by the government. Only the church through which it was performed. Unions presided over by judges, state employees, cannot be sanctioned or condemned by any church. For these two to cross, it is a breach of Separation of Church and State.

The Mormons had no legal right interfering in this election in regards to any marriage or union presided over by a state employee or the minister of another church.

The government should never have been allowed to include in the bill any marriage that any church allowed to happen.

As for the Mormon's interference in state matters, once a church involves itself in political matters, by law it must relinquish its tax exempt status.

As for the tax laws and other laws regarding marriage, those were written under the influence of the religious definition of marriage, causing their mere existence to be illegal.

Now, being a Pagan I have my own issues with the government allowing christianity to dictate its every move. That is what has happened here and will continue to happen in regards to the Gay marriage controversy as long as the mixing of church and state is allowed to continue.

I am not gay but I am also not an imbecile who cannot see fact from emotion. Gays have just as much of a right as any one of us to join in a loving union with another. No one has the right to say otherwise.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

SMP:
You are quite correct when you equate marriage with religion. Sadly, governments around the world have granted certain rights to this strictly religious ceremony, thus giving it an undeserved legal status. I too am sick and tired of Christianity as the dominant force in the US. The emphasis on religion harkens back to a far more primitive era; one we cannot allow to follow us into the future.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

HAHAHAHA...such arrogant self-reliance. You'll always have religion. Even if your god can only be seen in the mirror you look at every morning.

SMP · 1 year ago

I think English must be your second language as you seem to have a difficult time comprehending what you read. Perhaps you are just illiterate.

Nothing in DMNavarro's statement reflected vanity of any kind. Yours, however, smacks of self-importance. Perhaps if you tried not to be so self-absorbed and closed off to an education, you can take the opportunity to learn the facts of the world and can then hope to engage in a serious discussion with maturity and intelligence.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

Perhaps when you chose to treat all people equally you can point the finger
at others whom you believe are not treating you justly. Take the log out of
your own eye.

SMP · 1 year ago

I agree. Religion was merely a way of explaining things in a time when people believed an eclipse was a punishment from the gods. It was a way of controlling the masses, as well.

I believe that everyone has a right to follow their own path, even if that path is paved by a dogma. When a religious force attempts, and in this case succeeds, in controlling others, especially entire countries, it becomes a political regime that has no more right to exist than Hitler's armies.

No religion has the right to mandate what laws are passed in a government based upon a religious belief, but that is what has been allowed to happen here. I am not even talking about strictly the Mormon church. I am also referring to the people who vote according to what their faith tells them rather than what is civil rights of other citizens.

Churches go on record every election telling their congregations which way to vote, which way their god says is the way to heaven. They have no right to do this and the blind followers who do as they are told rather than what is a matter of constitutional rights sicken me. Just as all ignorant sheeple sicken me.

These christians with their determination to force everyone to abide by their bible's laws would lose their minds if Islam became the religious power here. Suddenly, sharia law would outweigh christian law and the christians would be crying out as loudly as those they, themselves, oppress now. What's good for the goose is good for the gander ... right?

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

The irony of your statement about a church needing to relinquish their tax exempt status is that churches don't need tax exemption to be free of taxation, nor for individuals to make tax deductible contributions. Check out Section 508 of the IRC. Only corporations ACTING as a non-profit church needs Section 501(c)3. So the threat of relinquishing tax exempt status isn't all that scary.

SMP · 1 year ago

Perhaps it isn't scary for you but I don't think you are the leader of a church. This past summer, a ministry in my town built a $2.8 million house of worship. $2.8 million that could have gone to feed the hungry, house the homeless, save abused children, build shelters for victims of domestic violence, contribute to St. Jude's Children's Hospital, etc ... Do you honestly believe churches that care more about spending the collection plate money on flaunting palace-style buildings wouldn't care about losing their tax exempt status? When they behave like a monster corporation with political agendas, it is time to start treating them like one.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

That's the choice that church makes. Jesus told His followers to be in the
world but not of the world. The consequences of a church becoming so
attached to the world that they are utterly dependent upon the world
violates the very call of Jesus to the Church.

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

do you have something with animal or what, immature I tell ya. why do you know about that does it offend you that some of those cows and dogs right are being taken away or something um am beginning to wonder

DaninSeattle · 1 year ago

Sadly - this tells it all. if people were educated, not only could they write in proper sentences, they might grow and open their minds to the fact that we all deserve equal treatment under the law.

mirth · 1 year ago

Whew.

I've been thinking about this all day, reading comments here and on other blogs, thrilled by the protests - especially the one in SLC! - and I've come to agree with those who think our protest actions should be targeted to Mormon businesses and not to the state of Utah or anything associated with Sundance/Park City.

Along with boycotting Mormon business interests, we can each file a complaint with the IRS against Mormon church activities meant to influence legislation. For this, here is info, forms and how to get your complaint to the IRS.

http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/how-to...

There are many others we should be going after, including other religions and organizations in California and elsewhere, but to be effective we need to focus our actions and resources. Of the many, I choose one: the Mormon church, for its most recent violation of Section 501(c)(3) of US Code Title 26, which governs tax-exempt organizations.

And to the "nice" Mormons trolling this site, believe and conduct your lives as your religion directs, but keep it out of my government.

And to my GLBT brothers and sisters...*raised fist*

mysticalsister · 1 year ago

I went to the march/rally in SF tonight and there were THOUSANDS of people there -- the march went on for miles, tying up traffic in all four lanes of Market Street in both directions, and finally filling Dolores Park. There were NINE helicopters in the sky and lots of TV stations covered it. One station estimated 5,000 people, but I think that's low-ball. We couldn't even walk through the park to our car -- it was too crowded -- and it's a very big park. The rally was very moving, people brought their kids, their parents, their straight friends -- a lot of young people, but all age groups were represented.
The thing I noticed the most was how DETERMINED everyone was. I went to the March on Washington back in the day, and that was amazing -- but this? This was focused. We should thank the Mormons for waking us up. There is NOTHING more inspirational to the gay community that out and out bigotry. And now with the internet? We can be anywhere, anytime, on a dime. They have no IDEA what they have done because we will not forget or forgive. And for a group that most christian religions see as a "crazy cult?" Mormons really shouldn't try to get in the business of judging others.

Keep the faith mirth. *terrorist fist jab*

p.s. to all the moron trollz on here -- go rinse out your magic underwear, and kiss your father's wives good night, you flaming hypocrites.

ImMormon2 · 1 year ago

Wow I am shocked about how much people really don't know anything about the Mormon religion.
You know the CA population is only 3% Mormon but the vote still passed. I wonder how that happened...oh maybe because we weren't the only people who wanted to see marriage between one man & woman only.

mirth · 1 year ago

The Mormon population in CA has nothing to do with the protests.

sheesh

Degio · 1 year ago

What next? The Black population? After all, they sort of led the charge with approving Prop8. Do us all a favor: Dig a hole and bury yourself in it. You narrow minded girly man.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Yeah, I wonder if it could have had anything to do with those deceptive ads, 80 percent bankrolled by Mormons?

mirth · 1 year ago

Ah, a voice of idealism in all this moralizing din!

This straight girl thanks you for the great description of the SF protest and for your encouragement and for your activism and for your goodness.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

One little problem...its our government too.

Oh, and thank you for illuminating the argument I've had for years that churches should not incorporate and seek government tax exempt status. Churches, by law, are not taxable. They only become taxable when they incorporate and thus need government tax exempt status for the CORPORATION, not the church.

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

sorry I voted for Nevada and Cali for the best snow much better. Colorado was nothing of the sort

abrivio · 1 year ago

Congratulations to the Mormon Church for working so hard to win the ban on Gay marriage!
John Aravosis called the children of gay couples bastards now. Very strong and crude statement to say about a group he stands up for! Just as the Mormons and millions of other people who DO NOT agree with gay marriage and believes a true union of marriage is between a woman and man.
I live in Switzerland and I will definitely refer UTAH to my friends to visit when they are in the states. I am even more PROUD now to visit this state. A state where true, normal, honest, people fight for what is truly God's law. Live your life as gay couple's but don't try to impose your lifestyles into the mainstream....because no matter how hard the gay community fights they will never be accepted. Not an opinion just a fact. For years having gay friends and a gay roommate I learned and realized this can NEVER be the case. Sorry. But from experience I have seen so much hate against the gay communtity. As hard as I have tried to open my heart and accept this lifestyle it just isn't normal or warrants acceptance!
For those who stand up for what they believe and continue to ban gay marriage....Kudos to you!

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

So much for European progressiveness. Perhaps this harkens back to which side of World War II your country sided with in spite of its declared neutrality? Never be accepted? Not as long as people like you continue to propogate. Give it time. Your brand of hate cannot last forever. God's law? In the Middle Ages you would have had an argument for it. As we move deeper into the 21st century, historians will look back on you people in much the same way we look back on the Inquisition, blaming the Jews for the plague, and other misguided, ignorant collections of people.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

"Progressive"!?!? HAHAHA... what has this so-called progressive thinking achieved? An ever-increasing world of violence, disease, financial ruin. Ask yourself just one question, how would the world be different if, for some unknown reason, everyone in the world were willing and capable of one simple archaic form of morality...keeping sexual activities confined to marriage?

todabeat · 1 year ago

You sure want to stay away from SF and LA during their gay pride week. that was one sick parade. what my pastor said was for us to use our own mind and 70% of we blacks voted for #8. They ticked us off when they compared their struggle with our 400 year struggle. No way was that the same. I am with the Mailman "Karl Malone" when it comes to going to utah. The mormons are cool people.

Recall · 1 year ago

You might want to read up on your history. Homosexuals have been presecuted for a lot longer than 400 years.

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

interesting mirth. that is good one lol

iloveamericablog · 1 year ago

I am not gay, but now you know what I had to contend with a few years ago residing for 15 years in Arizona, a state that many don't know is approximately 30% Mormon. Mormons control 30% of the legislature/judiciary and law firms. It makes Arizona one of the most conservative states in the United States. These folks are by NO STRETCH of the imagination Choir Boys. It is an elitist cult that is quick to throw their members out the door for non-payment of their 10% a month of GROSS INCOME (not net), men will cheat on their wives, some men will have more than one wife, and the most incidious of behavior is that in Mormon controlled businesses and law firms, they will hire you, but if you are not Mormon, you will not be allowed to rise up to the top of the company or become a partner.

ImMormon2 · 1 year ago

Wow I wonder how come I wasn't "throw out" as you put when I was CHOOSING not to pay my tithing. You know maybe you should get some facts straight before you go posting myths about the Mormon religion.

mysticalsister · 1 year ago

As one of the gay Californians directly impacted by the reprehensible bigoted actions of the Mormon church, I am happy to help with the boycott of Utah. I have a bit of influence when it comes to my company's decision about where we will be staging next year's convention. We had been thinking about Park City next winter because a lot of us love to ski, and it's cheaper than going to Hawaii, where we usually go. Having a real opportunity to "vote" with our dollars will make everyone at the company happy, particularly our CEO, who is also gay.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

More sour grapes.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

I don't think you understand the meaning of the term "sour grapes." In the famous fable, the wolf cannot get the grapes so he decides they are sour and he didn't want them anyway. What you are hearing is not "sour grapes" but a resolve to continue the fight. It is not over.

amberlyth · 1 year ago

The problem with your plan of action is that Park City along with Salt Lake and Moab are mostly non-mormon. Boycotting ski resorts, Sundance, etc hurts people and businesses who have no relationship with the church. If you feel that you must boycott, choose businesses owned directly by the church. A partial list can be found here: http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon410.htm

Robertlee · 1 year ago

I am a Hetero, Ex-Mormon. I dont support "Gay-Rights." I support "Human Rights." Every human has the right to live how they want to live. Government exist to protect our common interest not our common values, that's the role of religion. Not everyone believes what everyone believes and marriage is no exception, marriage was practiced long before Christ and even dating to the Romans, who practiced same sex marriages as well as other Institutions of belief. I do believe our country has great homage to the Mormon Church as early pioneers, however this battle was lost only because "gays" took this blessing-for-granted, not realizing the fight they were in with such a heavy controversy and the Mormon Church squarely fought to defend their narrow interpretation of marriage. Of course, hind-sight is 20/20 but if gays and their supporters are to get this thing passed then you can't half heartedly expect to just have it happen. Undoubtedly, some supporters bust their asses, but all the ones that I know and my wife's friends are losers for not passionately getting involved. I was disgusted. I found days before the vote to find hundreds of "Yes on 8" signs all over San Diego's freeways, side-streets, in yards, etc, etc. with no challenging signs for miles. I was so upset that not one gay person who saw this was outraged to tear them down, spray "NO" over the Yes or to a lesser degree post even one sign to oppose it. Where is the community support? Where is the "Unity," I'm sorry I can't entirely fault the Church for taking leadership to stop it because that's their role to preserve their way of life all over America, don't forget Mormans founded most of the west. I think Gays will overcome, but look how long it took blacks to get some "Respect." "Power does not concede without a fight." I think someone will rise to power for the Gays. BTW, kudos to America Blog, I think this guy gets it, for the rest of you. Stop crying about it and make it happen next time. I think of all the great comeback stories of our time and I say I can't wait to see this one on top.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

Thank you for reminding me that there are still sane and intelligent people in this country.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

Yes, sanity truly does include destroying other people's property and silencing those with whom you disagree. Get a grip. With all the money spent on the Prop 8 campaign, I truly doubt more than a fraction of 1% of the population in California hadn't already made up their minds about the issue. Sour grapes do taste terrible.

PrettyCookie · 1 year ago

Racism, sexism, anti-semitism, homophobia - don't worry my loves, this country has a terrible history of taking baby steps to overcome its major inadequacies and all that means is that you are the new kid on the block. In 20 years Americans will be 52% over their homophobia and self-righteousness and they'll just think of someone or something else to fear and hate. I married a Mormon and according to his family I've forced him away from the flock - and hey, guess what? I KNOW and all I can say is SCORE ONE FOR THE GOOD GUYS! On day we'll all be able to live happily without the moral majority telling us how to live - by the way, if the Mormon church is so right and good, why do they have an LDS adoption agency just for their congregations' unwed mothers? Hmm... I have no idea why what a gay person does in their own personal life has any effect on the lives of anyone else - you can't catch Gay and Gay isn't something that is taught, I mean ask any gay person if their parents were gay and I'm guessing the answer would be probably NO. Just hang in their, the fight isn't over yet. [A loyal fruit fly]

ImMormon2 · 1 year ago

Our religion still has freedom of choice...
No one is perfect & there is repentance. It was your husbands choice to follow you away from "the fold". Some day he may choose to come back...its called free agency. Love the sinner not the sin.
People will make mistakes and thats why there is an LDS adoption agency. Who's judging who now.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

Guess what, you'll ALWAYS have a moral majority. There will always be people legislating morality. And, unless you're a complete moron, you'd WANT morality to be legislated. All the Mormons and others involved in Prop 8 were doing was attempting to make sure the morals THEY believe in remain the prevailing morals of society.

The bottom line of those you who speak like you did your post is that you want to be able to do whatever you want without consequence. Well, guess what, there are consequences to EVERY choice.

PrettyCookie · 1 year ago

Yes, but here's the catch - those consequences are MINE to bear and MINE alone. It's no one else's right to decide what I should and shouldn't do based on their religious beliefs. It's my right and should I make the wrong choice it my consequence. If I became a lesbian tomorrow and married my girlfriend what would the consequences be? Persecution from the likes of you? And would you help me to bear that burden? I think not. So why force your morality on me? I believe life begins at conception, I hate guns, I love my IUD, I believe the death penalty isn't a deterrent, and I think gay people should have the basic right to be married but at the end of the day these decisions should belong to an individual, not the likes of those who want their own morals to be the sole morals of society.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

You live in a fantasy world if you think that society does not have the
right to judge and/or establish laws that stand in opposition to your
choices. Society does it all the time.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

It's true that legislation is often based on morality, but having a Constitution means that some moral decisions are put beyond majority vote. Constitutional rights, such as the right to marry that was recognized as part of the California Constitution, should not be taken away from anyone by a vote of a majority. If it is OK to do that with Prop 8, there is no reason the same thing cannot happen to other constitutional rights. If you're going to be intellectually consistent, jmichael39, then you have to agree that you would fully support the "will of the voters" if they decided to make a moral decision to take away the California Constitution's right to free exercise of religion -- but only for Mormons, or Catholics, or Jews, or atheists, or whatever religion you happen to belong to.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

Frankly, the "moral will" of the people has become the law at the expense of
other human beings...unborn human beings. The only justification for
permitting (even demanding) a law that allows a woman to end the life of an
unborn child is in dehumanizing that child by calling it an embryo or
zygote. The hypocrisy of it is that if that same woman chose to keep the
child then the same people who would dehumanize it would then rush to
congratulate the woman on her pregnancy, wishing her a healthy child and
such.

Perhaps when the same rights you wish to afford yourself are afforded to the
unborn you can once again pick of the mantle of indignation and fight for
the cause of the homosexual.

In the meantime, do not be deceived into thinking that Christians are not
already being the targets of persecution.

Marybe · 1 year ago

The Mormon s also own Marriott. FYI You should check out other businesses owned by them.

jenihendrix34 · 1 year ago

Oh.my.gosh. Are you for real? Okay, let's clarify here. "The Mormons (meaning the Church as a whole)" do not own Marriott. 'A' Mormon owns Marriott. A very, rich, successful Mormon, but just "a" Mormon nonetheless. Don't confuse yourself or the rest of the World.

justbeinhonest · 1 year ago

Friends, I understand your pain but I fear you do not understand the culture of ethnic mormons. I say ethnic mormons, because as many mormons and nonmormons will agree, they have moved to a point of ethnicity and single culture. However, whether you accept that or not, it is how they see themselves and that is a definition of Ethnicity.
Boycotts will not work just as protest are futile. The mormon people have been attacked by bigotry throughout their history. They have watched prominent leaders fall away and assail them/ They have burned out of their homes by people who didn't like their politics and social values. They have had a government extremination order signed against them. They have had the US army march troops in war against them. They have been massacred by political activists. They have been imprisoned for their beliefs. They have watched their temples and churches burned and firebombed (And yes they are bombed and vandalized each year) They have watched countles sons die while trying to tell people a message of Jesus Christ. They have weathered 150 years of nonstop accusations whenever a calamity occurs beit Depression, or Iraq War, or even Gay Marriage Bans in California. Mormon Culture has learned to thrive on your anti-mormon bigotry. They see it as a badge of honor. Protesting infront of their temples will not change them. It will make them stronger. Like the jews of old, vile assaults will not stop them.
Boycotting Sundance will not stop them. They make their own movies that never make it outside of utah. Boycotting ski resorts won't hurt them. Tourism is not and has never been the biggest industry. There are two tourism industries in Utah, a mormon industry that caters to mormons and a nonmormon one, that runs the ski resorts and sundance. Utahns have lived for 100 years without sundance and skiing revenues. To hurt the LDS church you would have to strike at the Biomedical products, boycott credit cards, boycott road salt, refuse to spend money on the air force, and boycott airline industry. These are where the mormons are. Even then, you would be assaulting innocents...for shame on you. Like the jewish enclaves of medieval europe, you have found your ethnic minority to attack and burn when things go wrong. You are bigoted in the worst way. You have become worse than those that angered you.

Your current course will not hurt the LDS church, it make them stronger. They are resilient. Attacking the LDS church is attacking an ethnic group and it is there that you are ignorant. No, I am sorry, you will not change them with anger and pain although it feels better..The best way to change them is with love. Until you learn that, you have lost not only the battle... but the war.

P.s. if you must attack..remember mormons were not the only ones. Spread the blame around instead of attacking ethnic religouos minorities. And if you think mormons tipped the scales, you give them too much credit. A religon of less than 2% of the nation did not make 52% of california vote against you.

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

when I get back home to cali I will be helping as much as possible, I got Sid tract in Washington. I miss home so bad. I am back next month right next to Sacramento. I leave you guys alone for 8 months you guys get gay marriage then you guys lose it. I am going to have to come back and help. I am sorry for missing it lol. I will be present and accounted for starting Dec 26th to help. I promis

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

and you don't think the gays have been through any thing. we have been around since the beginning. long before the the religious right came damn its been that long,

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

I should say since long before the religious right was organized

tjenkin · 1 year ago

I'm going to get a bunch of rich Texans together and go into other States and force them to all speak Texican. Then I'm going to have the rich in China bank roll a Constitutional Admendment that Government now is in control of religion. What a dangerous example the Mormon Church has set before us all.

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

lol right

jeffanddane · 1 year ago

good night guys it been nice lol and the guys about the animal thing stop please, that was immature. stop torturing these nice people with that stuff. I would not even do that to these guys lol

justbeinhonest · 1 year ago

Jeff, I am not arguing the orgins or vailidty of gay subculture. It is valuable and integral part. It hurts to be shunned. I know. I agree. It hurst to feel close to acceptance and then feel it stripped away. But, to be honest, mormons, and I mean the average mormon on the street, doesn't care for money. However, they do understand family. Gays need to show love. They need to show mormons that regardless of the mistakes the have made, Gay culture is more of a friend to Mormons than the religous right. Gays need to show mormons that if the mormons stand with the religous right, as they did in california, it is only a matter of time until the religous right comes after mormons. We need to show mormons that the religous right sees there enimies as 1. Gays 2. Muslims 3. Mormons 4. Jews. Showing hatred to mormons will only drive them closer to the religous right. It is time to welcome the mormons back to being progressive (and lets face it after Mitt Romney showed that even right wing mormons are hated by the religous right, they can be brought back into the progressive thinking crowd)

I wish you all the best luck. Jeff. I wish for you that the world will open its arms and let you have all the happines you deserve and require. later

Marybe · 1 year ago

I just read the comment about Arizona Mormon law firms not allowing non-Mormons to rise to partnership level. I am also a lawyer in California. My first legal job was at a Mormon law firm in CA. The firm specialized in employment law and discrimination cases. The funny thing was, the firm treated women differently than the men, i.e. less pay, and other perks. In addition, the Mormons in the firm were given the best cases, so their income was higher. When the firm took on partners the partners were Mormon and male. The female attorneys never stayed more than two years due to the double standard. I found it incredibly hypocritical that the firm represented employees who had discrimination claims, yet practiced discrimination. Finally, there was a CA proposition about ten years ago which banned gay marriage. The owner of the firm brought signs which supported the ban for employees to put on their lawns!!!

JustWonderingAZ · 1 year ago

Such practices are wrong. I'm a Mormon and my one experience working for a Mormon taught me to never work for a Mormon again. But your experience wouldn't be much different if you worked at a firm owned by USC alums and you were a UCLA grad. We won't talk about our Congressmen and women who are exempt from the employment laws they've enacted. And a lot of them are lawyers. However, I expect my fellow Church members to behave differently. I've been disappointed with those here in AZ who hire illegal immigrants to avoid paying proper wages and taxes. I have little sympathy for their current plight. My Church teaches us to be better than that. But we're all human. Don't judge the whole by the few. I wish being Mormon was mutually exclusive with being stupid. But alas...

Marybe · 1 year ago

Boycotts do work. Look at the grape boycott and Cesar Chavez.

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

Work how? What exactly would a boycott of Utah achieve here? You think that somehow they'll change their minds and not support Prop 8 and in so doing that we Californias will have to revote on the issue? Get real. The only thing a boycott does is make you look petty and vindictive.

amberlyth · 1 year ago

It would work in theory, but a lot of the businesses and events that are being targeted by this potential boycott are not LDS owned or affiliated. All that's going to happen is a lot of innocent people and businesses are going to get hurt. Target Mormon-owned businesses or the church itself if you want to have an impact. Working to get their tax-exempt status revoked would be a much better use of time.

TruthBeTold2 · 1 year ago

Just to be clear, Proposition 8 was passed by the voters in California and not by the Mormon Church Since Mormon's make up only a small portion of the California population it is clear that many others shared the same view on Prop 8). The Mormon church has a very clear position on same-sex marriage (you can find it on their website). In a press release from the church on Nov 5, it states in part:

The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility toward gays and lesbians. Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.

That hardly sounds like an attack on gays or gay bashing. It actually sounds more supportive than many posts on this board would give credit. However, it is clear that the church and a large portion of its members support the traditional definition of marriage. That does not make them bigoted or homophobic.

If I understand California law correctly, there are civil unions allowed under the law now that ensure all of the same rights and privledges as a marriage would. If this is not the case, it seems that it might be a better use of time and resources to address any liberties that might be missing as opposed to trying to change the definition of marriage.

DaninSeattle · 1 year ago

bigamist' ... telling other people who to marry and who not to marry? Using the church to influence voters? that's why the Mormons are being targeted. Hypocrisy at work once again. Sadly, the Christians are going to be ready to pounce on whoever loses this PR war. Prolly' us gays. thanks for throwing us under the bus again.

jczmoney · 1 year ago

Quit throwing your gay crap in my face. I could care less either way but i am sick of listening to gays talk about how they have it so bad. Your an American still, act like one. You throw yourselves under the bus., and then expect every one to feel sorry for you because your gay. I dont agree with any part of being gay, but i am not homophobic nor do i take part in any gay bashings. The choice is yours and you know the outcome. Hell we just barely elected a African-American as president, how long has the gay population been fighting for their rights? Not even close to as long. I bet when MLK jr. was righting his "i have a dream" speech he wasn't thinking about gays.

jczmoney · 1 year ago

First off most of you complaining about Utah have never been here or ever plan on being here. I am part of the 38% of the non mormons living in Utah. I have lived here my whole life and have had to deal with the mormons my whole life. Park City and the town I live in (Moab) are probly the only 2 towns in the state that buy in large are non mormon. You want to boycott the whole state? Thats the dumbest thing I have ever heard. The LDS church has the right to speak out against any thing they want, this is America, they just need to keep there money out of it. I am not a fan of the church. nor have i ever been, but there is alot more going on in Utah than just the mormons. In Moab where I live, tourism is what runs our town. If you take that away from us your also tearing apart families and making it harder than it already is to make a living. Not all Utahn's are mormon, and not all of us agree with the mormon church or their teachings. I diffently do not agree with their decision to get involved but boycotting my state and my life is BS. Figure out something else besides boycotting my state because you will be hurting other people (non-mormons) instead.

jnlwilson · 1 year ago

Here is the response of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to the passage of Prop 8:

It is important to understand that this issue for the Church has always been about the sacred and divine institution of marriage — a union between a man and a woman.

Allegations of bigotry or persecution made against the Church were and are simply wrong. The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility toward gays and lesbians. Even more, the Church does not object to rights for same-sex couples regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches.

Some, however, have mistakenly asserted that churches should not ever be involved in politics when moral issues are involved. In fact, churches and religious organizations are well within their constitutional rights to speak out and be engaged in the many moral and ethical problems facing society. While the Church does not endorse candidates or platforms, it does reserve the right to speak out on important issues.

Before it accepted the invitation to join broad-based coalitions for the amendments, the Church knew that some of its members would choose not to support its position. Voting choices by Latter-day Saints, like all other people, are influenced by their own unique experiences and circumstances. As we move forward from the election, Church members need to be understanding and accepting of each other and work together for a better society.

Even though the democratic process can be demanding and difficult, Latter-day Saints are profoundly grateful for and respect the ideals of a true democracy.

The Church expresses deep appreciation for the hard work and dedication of the many Latter-day Saints and others who supported the coalitions in efforts regarding these amendments.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Sorry, they don't get to trample the rights of a group of human beings with hateful bigotry, ruin the lived of children associated with these people, destroy marriages for their own twisted logical reasons, then take the moral high ground.

They are bigots and this was hate legislation.

wmcot · 1 year ago

So gays have the right to voice their opinion, but a church does not have the right to voice its opinion? Sounds like you might be the bigot.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Churches have every right to voice their opinion. This is not what they did here. This was a willful destruction of people's live BECAUSE of their opinion.

When Gays and Lesbians stop people from belonging to a church because they don't like it let me know. Until then, you are dumb.

wmcot · 1 year ago

Re-read your first 3 sentences. I think you just shot down your own argument.

The LDS church along with others voiced their opinion. The majority of California voters agreed. You got your feelings hurt because the voters slapped you on the wrists and said, "No!"

p.s. Your "dumb" comment shows a lack of intelligence.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Actually, my "dumb" comment was snark. I will refrain in the future as you did not catch it as so and don't wish to muddy the waters, something you continue to do on this topic.

In addition, you are wrong that I shot down my own argument. My "feelings" aren't hurt. Real People were hurt. Real People were told they are not good enough to be considered the same as everyone else. Lives were ruined. Marriages could be invalidated. Rights were trampled on. Children were told their parents were less than other children's parents. If you don't see that, there is nothing else I can say to you. You are willfully ignoring the real impact this has on real lives because it doesn't effect yours. It must be nice to not have to worry about people taking rights away from you. There are still some groups, apparently, who don't have that luxury.

wmcot · 1 year ago

The problem stems from the fact that the "rights" you refer to were only given by a handful of judges on the California Supreme Court after a majority of California voters denied those "rights" in the first ballot. Now those "rights" have been denied again by California voters.

That has nothing to do with gays being good parents, members of society, or anything other than denying the use of the word "marriage" to describe the union of two gay individuals. If defining a word has the power to "ruin lives" then those lives weren't based on much in the first place. If you feel that you have no value without the word "married" then I feel very sorry for you.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Ah, this old saw. I knew it would come out eventually.

The "problem" as you put it stems from the idea that a handful of judges did exactly what they were supposed to do, judge whether or not a proposal violated the state constitution. If they didn't we could pass all sorts of crazy things, assuming we could get support, and there would be nothing they could do about it. Fortunately, they saw through the proposal and it was shot down, and rightly so.

This has everything to do with the fact that you are missing the point. If you define the word to mean something harmful, then it has the power to ruin lives. If you define the word "marriage" to mean "Something you can't have because you are gay", which is exactly what Prop 8 does, then it ruins lives. Your assessment of those lives is irrelevant.

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

Hmm.. that seems an exact description of what the Government did to Mormon polygamists in the 1800's. And that wasn't even put up to a Democratic vote!

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

So, because the feds trampled on their rights (a debatable topic, but we'll go with it for sake of argument) they get to trample on someone else's? 130 years later? I daresay, there are many things we did in the 1800s that would not pass muster today. This is not about that. Besides, they were marrying women, and they can still marry women. Maybe not as many, but they still get to marry at least one. That's all the Gays want to do.

There actually are more reasons, if you read about the whole movement, why polygamy was outlawed. Partly, it was because they were marrying children. Not all of them, mind you. But they were fine with the ones that were. There are whole papers devoted to the topic, and the LDS church itself is said to disavow it at this point in time, even though in the 1800s they said it was a mandate from God that would destroy them if they didn't do it. Obviously either that didn't happen or they are on that slow train to destruction.

Considering their own Civil Rights fights, you would think they would be pissed at people trying to limit other people's rights, not being the ones destroying them.

JustWonderingAZ · 1 year ago

As I recall thirty or forty years ago the open-minded crowd, commonly known as liberals, was telling everyone that marriage was an worn-out tradition with no relevance in modern society. People didn't need to be marred to be happy. Living together was the way to go. Free love! So zoom ahead to 2008 and all of a sudden marriage is important for homosexuals according to the liberals. Why? Is it still important for heterosexuals? Can't two gay people be happy without marriage just like two straight people? Apparently not. Why? I assume the reason is that without a legal union certain financial benefits are lost. If gays are allowed to execute a civil union in California will they not be guaranteed all those financial benefits or rights? If the answer is "yes", then I don't see a loss of rights. I know for certain that the LDS Church is only concerned with the definition of marriage and did not support the withholding of legal rights to financial benefits in California or Arizona. In fact 4 years ago in Arizona when the proposition came before the voters to define marriage and prohibit state government from extending benefits to domestic partners that Church did not take an active role as it did during the Prop 8 and 102 efforts. And that proposition failed in a state with a larger LDS population percentage-wise than California.

So I assume that Disney World will be out of the question since Florida passed their proposition with 62% of the vote in a state that has an even smaller LDS population than California. BTW, Virginia has the most prohibitive ammendment regarding marriage. So I guess Virginia isn't for lovers after all.

So the bottom line is this (and it is a bottom line issue): If gays can be in love and committed to each other and enjoy the civilly guaranteed financial benefits of partnership without marriage (that other partners of whatever persuasion enjoy), what is the big deal about Prop 8 or 102? Why would open-minded individuals want to be associated with a worn-out, archaic tradition that went out of style almost 40 years ago with Woodstock?

Just wondering in AZ.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

That really isn't your call, so you are missing the point completely. The point, and rightly so, is that they don't feel they should be TOLD they can't get married. Because, you know, they are real people, who live and love and pay taxes and drive cars and have pets, just like other real people. There is no reason to deny them the right afforded to other real people simply because of the color of their skin, I mean, because of who they love.

JustWonderingAZ · 1 year ago

The government restricts marriage in other cases...first cousins and siblings come to mind. How about polygamy? And Mormons don't practice it. Why are they prohibited? Because a majority of Americans think they should be. It is what the majority deems necessary to maintain a proper moral, yes moral, structure to our society. Laws are intended to provide moral guidance to the population, whether we like it or not.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Likening unrelated adults over the age of consent to siblings and cousins does nothing to help your argument. Neither does polygamy, which is not what we are discussing. You are muddying the waters because you have no good reason to deny rights to two consenting adults. Nice try.

wmcot · 1 year ago

Actually, JustWonderingAZ has several very good, legal analogies to the prohibition of gay marriage. You just don't seem to want to see that. In both his/her examples, he/she has demonstrated that government has the right, through the will of the people, the restrict certain groups from marrying on moral grounds based on the will of the majority of the people. We call that DEMOCRACY!

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Democracy is about protecting the rights of the minority from the majority. Apparently you failed civics.

wmcot · 1 year ago

Not when the rights of the minority are determined to be detrimental as determined by the majority. For example, child sexual abusers are a minority, too.

p.s. No, I'm not equating being gay with child abuse. It's just an example of a minority that doesn't have its rights protected.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Yes, well, raping a child is illegal for a number of reasons, most of which I am sure you already know. This is not germaine to this discussion.

We are talking about the rights of two consenting adults, which has no logical basis to be denied. The only argument possible has to do with religious morality which is not a good enough reason, and indeed no reason at all, to trample on those rights.

wmcot · 1 year ago

The U.S. Constitution is all about morality. You might want to read it again.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Actually, you are the one stating the US Constitution legislates morality, so it is up to you to generate the proof. I'm waiting.

wmcot · 1 year ago

Actually the majority of California citizens TOLD gays they don't have the right to be married. This includes a vast majority of the black population (about 70% against gay marriage) who, I doubt were influenced by the Mormon church at all. It seems that those supporting gay marriage can't take "no" for an answer and need a convenient scapegoat to pick on. Why don't you march through the predominantly black neighborhoods of LA since they are so opposed? Probably because you may not come out alive!

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

A small majority, influenced by the assault of Yes on 8 lies and robocalls, paid for by the LDS.

And you and todabeat's assessment of black neighborhoods is just sad. To think, a group could forget its own struggles so completely that they would KILL someone who disagrees with them. Wow. Please, give the right more ammunition. They only need to see a few more posts like your tr prove to themselves that they should have blown up those "black neighborhoods" long ago.

Oh, BTW. This blog is about the LDS. If you really want to put forth the black view so vehemently, why don't you write up a blog entry and let everyone discuss it?

wmcot · 1 year ago

It was just an example to show that you are focusing on one small group which is made up of non-threatening people, rather than addressing the larger groups that made up most of the vote. The LDS church was part of a coalition of Christian churches. Are you protesting the rest of the churches involved, or going after the smallest target? Did you send protesters to the Vatican to protest the Catholics? What about the Baptists? Protestants? Evangelists? ...the list goes on and on.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

While I do appreciate the amount to power you have ascribed to me, I have to say, your faith is misplaced.

I personally protest all churches by not going. I had my fill of self-righteous pomposity and piousness when I was going to Baptist school for most of my primary education.

And I can't "send" anyone anywhere. I can, however, point out where your argument breaks down and address the topic of this blog post, which is the LDS. If you would like me to comment on a blog post about the Baptists, I would do so. Please point me to one. (Although you would be pretty disappointed, because my statements will be pretty much the same, as, with one notable exception, I have not actually called out the LDS church to the exclusion of other culprits in this hateful legislation.)

wmcot · 1 year ago

The "you" was meant to be in the plural sense, since I don't know who you are representing.

As for "hateful legislation," that should be addressed to California's voting population, not the LDS church or the coalition of churches who simply stated their opinion on the matter.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Then you are, again, willfully ignoring the amount of support they gave the measure, which went far beyond a simple stated opinion.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Constitutional rights should not be taken away from anyone by a mere vote of a majority. If it is OK to do that with Prop 8, there is no reason the same thing cannot happen to other constitutional rights. If you're going to be intellectually consistent, wmcot, then you have to agree that you would fully support the "will of the voters" if they decided to take away the California Constitution's right to free exercise of religion -- but only for Mormons, or Catholics, or Jews, or atheists, or whatever religion you happen to belong to.

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

No, YOU don't get the point. No one (not the Mormon Church, not conservatives, or anyone else) is saying that gays shouldn't have a right to be couples, to exchange vows, to have the same medical, employment,etc. priveledges as other couples.

ALL WE WANT is to protect the sanctity of the word marriage - so that it means what it has always meant - what we believe the Lord intended it to mean.

We have different words for a lot of gender based things just to keep things from being confused. Even the basic hetero-,homo-, trans- words. WHY can't you just choose a different word for want you want and leave "marriage" out of it?

Instead of having "Gay Weddings" and "Gay Marriage" why don't you just have "Joinings" Can't you hear the conversation? "I'm going to a joining of two of my close friends." "Oh, are they men or women?" You wouldn't even have to say "GAY" everyone would know it was a "gay wedding." You already use "partner" instead of husband and wife - because that really DOES get confusing! - How about just saying - "Oh, we're pledged to be joined next June!"

We just want the word marriage and the sacrament of marriage to be maintained.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

Ah, yes, the Separate but Equal argument. Nice try, already refuted.

Sorry, you don't get to monopolize the word marriage. marriage is not a religious institution. If it were, you would be blocking atheists from having one. Really, if you believed you were the only ones who truly understood what the word meant, you would be blocking everyone except Mormons from getting one. And while we are at it, I'll go ahead and refute the "Marriage is for procreation" argument before you make it. If that were true, you would be trying to stop old people and sterile people and people who just want to be married without kids from having them. You are not.

No, marriage is a contract with your "partner" and the state. If it wasn't you would be able to get married without filing papers with the state. You do, so it is. Therefore it is not religious. The CEREMONY is religious, if you so choose, but marriage is not. However, trying to stop two consenting adults who love each other from enjoying the same rights you have regardless of your religious stance is bigotry, and making laws to stop them is hateful.

Oh, that means I get the point. Thanks.

tjenkin · 1 year ago

When I walk into my church to practice my faith, I don't want the Government or outside influence to tell me how to do it. Nor do I want them to tell me how to practice my faith when I'm outside the Church. On the same token, I don't want leaders of my faith to force my political decisions and I will not allow them to do that. There is nothing wrong with the Church having it's own defintion on Marriage anymore than how one should be Baptized. There is also nothing wrong with Government having it's own defintion of marriage free from the "Church". I believe marriage is between a man and a women. That is my faith. I believe in equal rights for all Americans and that Government must ensure those rights to all Americans. Equality does equate to a moral issue. That is my politics.

Robertlee · 1 year ago

I just wish everybody would mind the own fucking business! Seriously, what do you care what your neighbor does! Mormons should be concerned about online porn addiction! I dont see them spending that money on feeding the homeless. Seriously, WTF WJD! "Give to Ceasar what is Ceasar and Give to God, what is God's!" I dont see them casting an anti-polygomy federal law, or an anti-cheating on your wife law!

ImMormon2 · 1 year ago

Um actually we do. Our church is onsite with food and help whenever there is a disaster. We stayed the longest to help rebuild after Katrina. We are right there with the Red Cross. Maybe you should get your facts straight.
Everyone should go look up some facts that they can post about the Mormon religion.

sharksfansd · 1 year ago

And continue on...you funneled money from Utah to California to meddle in the California Constitution.

wmcot · 1 year ago

Yeah, actually the church funneled a whopping $1200.00 for travel reimbursements! The rest came from individual citizens who have the same rights as you when it comes to supporting a cause. You might want to get your facts straight (or at least listen to a news station that gets them straight for you so you won't be bothered with the task.)

sharksfansd · 1 year ago

Tsk Tsk. Why so testy? I am also waiting for your response above regarding winding the clock back on some rights afforded to Citizens of the United States in the last century.

wmcot · 1 year ago

Not testy, just correcting falsehoods which have been stated by the media due to the lack of interest in finding the facts before reporting them.

See my response to your other post.

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

Wmcot DID respond to your snarky comment about banning interracial marriage and so did I. You should go back and read the responses. It's called Democracy - overturned laws banning interracial marriage and has enacted laws banning gay marriage. Will of the people and all that, ya know?

BananaFish · 1 year ago

In the case of the ban interracial marriages, it wasn't the 'will of the people' that ultimately overturned those laws. It was those wacky 'activist judges' (Supreme Court) overturning the people -- the people of Virginia and their laws that wouldn't allow or recognize interracial marriages.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

I wish you had spent that $27 million on these very worthwhile charitable efforts instead of trying to pass Prop 8 to take away other people's constitutional rights. You would even have gotten a tax deduction if you did so!

justlaffin · 1 year ago

Mormons have a long record of service to those in need. I haven't been a member since 1991 and they still came to my house when I had a serious illness in 2000 and brought food and helped me with my kids. They have food drives and routinely help with rent and other expenses for those in need. However, they require that this aid be "worked off" in conjunction with their beliefs. They have one of the most extensive welfare systems around and it does work. I would love to see the stats of how few mormons are on the public dole.

kino · 1 year ago

They did not help the ones in need of constitutional protection and fairness. the fact is that Mormons enjoy forcing other to live their way. sad.

TruthBeTold2 · 1 year ago

Is there a reason my post was removed? It was fair, honest and non-offensive.

sharksfansd · 1 year ago

Can't say I was offended by your post, but the fair and honest just isn't going to cut it (kind of like that FOX news slogan).

Robertlee · 1 year ago

Today at noon there will be a March for Gay Rights on First and University in HillCrest San Diego!

tjenkin · 1 year ago

jnlwilson
"so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the traditional family or the constitutional rights of churches."
I will make the case that divorce infringes on the "Traditional family". The Constitution reference will be challenged as no Faith Based organization has the right to violate the integrity of an individual voter or vote outcome in another State.

PrettyCookie · 1 year ago

The "traditional family" no longer exists as mommy, daddy, 2.5 children, and their dog Spot have found that the term "nuclear" just can't encapsulate what the American ideal is truly about in today's society. I was raised by a single father. My half-sister from my father's 5th marriage was raised by the grandmother of her single mother. My husband was raised by his mother and step-father as well as his father and live-in girlfriend. Two mommies, two daddies, one mommy, one daddy, stepmommy, stepdaddy, grandparents, foster parents, adopted parents, married, not married, seperated, divorced, cheating: traditional just doesn't exist anymore so WHO CARES?

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

Yes, and I confess, I would LOVE to see how all of that has worked out for all those kids. It would make a fascinating study for the impact the dissolution of the "traditional" family has on children. I'm guessing I know what that study would show.

mnature · 1 year ago

Does no one remember that every single person has the right to their own voice? Apparently most Californians agreed with prop 8, now quit trying to blame the mormons, and move on with the next phase of your lives. Boycotting the state of Utah will do you no good, except make your world a little bit smaller...I am a mormon who attends church regularly and y'all need to get your facts straight about a few things....we are NOT required to give 10% of our income, and it is a choice of whether you take that 10% from gross or net..... yes it is a commandment for us, but everything is still a choice, and we are showing our FAITH in GOD by paying tithing..... as for iloveamericablog, mormons are still human beings that can and will make mistakes JUST like you.... NOBODY is perfect and we must all live our lives as we see fit... . you complain of being hated, why don't you show your love like we try to do, yes you will still run into people that are bigots, but you are showing your bigotry and hate by trying to hurt innocent people... I actually have SEVERAL gay friends and love them dearly, but this is something that we all agree to disagree on...

sharksfansd · 1 year ago

Give it up, as the 48% of Californians that voted no on 8 are not falling for your ruse. Hundreds, if not thousands, of Utah residents supported the measure financially that was put on the California ballot. We are not back in the 1950's and 60's where we have to rely on Ma Bell and the telegram to organize and fight back. The time is now to put those in Utah that supported the measure it the spotlight (i.e. I think that is quite a few Mormons).

wmcot · 1 year ago

So they can't express their opinions and fight for them because they're not gay???

sharksfansd · 1 year ago

Read the post again. Utah residents messing with the California Constitution. If you can't understand that than it is pointless to debate about it.

wmcot · 1 year ago

I didn't realize that freedom of speech stopped at state borders!

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

That's not fair. The entire country was watching this vote and knew it would be used (whichever way it went) as precendent in other states who were making the same choice.

If you want to talk about fair - how about you work to end the practice of crossing party lines during a Primary? For a Democrat to vote in a Republican Primary (for the sole purpose of chosing the other party's candidate for the election), with the express intention of then voting Democrat in the National election is reprehensible. And vice-versa of course. Didn't hear you complaining when you guys were "messing" with our Primaries!

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Constitutional rights should not be taken away from anyone by a mere vote of a majority. If it is OK to do that with Prop 8, there is no reason the same thing cannot happen to other constitutional rights. If you're going to be intellectually consistent, mnature, then you have to agree that you would fully support the "will of the voters" if they decided to take away the California Constitution's right to free exercise of religion -- but only for Mormons. Would "showing our love they way you try to do" include our trying to pass a ballot initiative like that? Should we "agree to disagree" on whether practicing the Mormon faith should be legal or not? Give me a break with that faux-Christian tolerance rhetoric that you use to mask your prejudice and double standards.

AGAGAG · 1 year ago

Wow. This is blowing my mind. I'm a Utah ex-mormon. My best friend is also a Utah ex-mormon who is gay. I love Utah and so does he...and We Live Here!!! I don't get what a boycott will do...I mean I get it, but I don't think it will actually happen. I'm sad things are happening the way they are. It's so dumb. Anyway, just remember, Utahns didn't vote on this! And the donations came from LDS people from ALL OVER THE USA, also not just from the LDS, it's not their fault that they are freakin' rich. Maybe the other 49 states should boycott California. But I love Disneyland and Ellen too much, so never mind.

sharksfansd · 1 year ago

That list of Utah donors is pretty large though. Did you see it?

wmcot · 1 year ago

Yes. It looks like a lot of donors took advantage of their constitutional rights to express their opinios and support their cause!!!

sharksfansd · 1 year ago

Would you like to rewind the clock and give to the cause of banning whites and blacks from marrying each other as well?

wmcot · 1 year ago

I don't recall seeing that on any ballots. Perhaps you should get it on a ballot and see what the will of the people would be? (Although I don't see the relevance to this issue.)

It seems that you're just ticked off that things didn't go your way so you need one group to take out your frustrations on. Too bad you can't accept the choice made by a majority of Californians, Floridians, etc...

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

wmcot makes an EXCELLENT point in response to this foolish remark. There certainly WERE laws banning interacial marriage - and the American people abolished those laws.

That's what democracy is all about. The will of the majority of the people.

The Mormon church did not cast a vote in California. There are a lot of Mormons out there, but the percentage of Californians who are Mormons really isn't that large. At the encouragement (not demand) of their leadership, many Mormons got out and worked for a cause they believed in and then the MAJORITY of the state passed the amendment. You guys need to grow up.

FireandBrimstone · 1 year ago

True and this not a fight about race. It is a fight about a statistically dangerous way of living, the legitimization of that peversion, and the instruction of young minds as a reasonable choice to normal biologically correct sexual attraction. The seeding of misery to the innocent.

Fine. You GLTB, Nambla, ect get enough votes you get your way, you'll win. Not now. Either way there is always the countervaling force of AIDS to teach you what your lifestyle breeds. Boycott? Yes Vermont this year and last and the previous. We go to Utah this year to reward the heroism in the face of genuinely evil people like those gltb's on this board so you breeders of sickness can STFU. I am writing a letter to Ford about the 50K car I did not buy though I had waited a year with a 5K deposit to buy it because F now stands for perversion not family. Look at their stock. It's where a supporter of family perversion should be ($2.00). May AIDS spread like wildfire.
We who practice fidelity and abstinence will live on as you all die screaming. I used to care. Now, with outright anti-christian hatred you all show....right here on this blog. With the hatred you show mothers of five like Sarah Palin (gays hanging an effigy of her?) may you get what you deserve and suffer with it long enough to infect another and another. You are scum and my reasons to be afraid of GLTB has been confirmed. I know of 9 people who will ski in UTAH this year.
I'n your diseased covered faces.

onebadgungan · 1 year ago

You are a sick sad little person. Please get the help you need.

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

Yeah - I also saw a list of the California donors. AND the list of the donations received by the opposing side. I guess everyone who voted against gay marriage in California should immediately buoycott all the businesses in California that are run by people who voted for it. And....that would make the majority buoycotting the minority. Works for me!

tjenkin · 1 year ago

I disagree with the Mormon Leadership but I refuse to attack the Mormon people. This is a social injustice issue. It is not a bad person versus good person or good person versus bad person.

realistman · 1 year ago

i can not believe it. i actually post a comment with actual numbers that show how one sided everyones thinking is and it gets deleted. that is typical of people who do not care of others views.

sharksfansd · 1 year ago

Guess you need to start marching in the streets then.

justlaffin · 1 year ago

Sorry but as a former mormon, I can tell you that the church does not give an aerial copulation. The only financial distress you are going to cause is to the small business owner. Tithe is volutary and comes from around the world, so the amount from Utah isn't that much.Secondly, where were all of you yelling when the Catholic church funds protests against abortion?
As for the IRS, they aren't going to remove the non profit status because of political donations. If you want to make a change, then make marriage itself just an institution of religious entities and make civil unions the requirement for everyone. This removes the arguement that defines marriage and it works for everyone equally.

sharksfansd · 1 year ago

I understand your points here, but are you saying the Mormon Church is squeaky clean and not just regarding this issue? The spotlight is going to be pretty bright on them here for at least the next couple of weeks. All the digging around is not going to discover anything newsworthy?

BTW, don't you think there are other groups that can deal with the Catholic Church and abortion? Prop 4 didn't wind up passing anyway, so that is just not as big of an issue right now.

justlaffin · 1 year ago

Well I don't see anyone outside of a catholic church, disrupting their services.While I left the church, it is still part of my heritage, so it hurts me to see signs on the temple and the lack of consideration for the young couples getting married or sealed.
For the record, the church did not start with polygamy as a standing practice. It was instituted during the search for Zion as a way to "protect" women who did not have a man to protect them. Utah as Zion? Sorry but I stand by my first post. They are a stubborn bunch.

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

Yeah - the Mormon church has NEVER had to be under a bright light before! No one has EVER tried to dig dirt up on them for political gain or personal grudge! The church is really shaking in its boots right now! LOL!

sparky67 · 1 year ago

You obviously have not done your research ladyjethro.The Mormon Church has been under the "bright light" as you say, since their initial re-establishment. Personal grudges are against their beliefs. It sounds to me like all they did was encourage their California members to fight for what they believe in. Isn't that was the Obama supporters have been doing for the last 22 months?

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

I personally feel that any religious organization that gets financially involved with government issues should have their tax exempt status taken away. Religious money should not be used to fund protests of anything. If they have this kind of money to spend on protests, then they have enough money to pay taxes.

sparky67 · 1 year ago

Justlaffin, I agree with you. Also I just want to ask everyone. If this idea of clarifying that marriage is only between 1 man and 1 woman, then why is noone upset at Florida? They just passed this very legislation on Nov 4!

Mormon · 1 year ago

I realize this passage won't mean anything to most of the people who visit this site, but here goes:

Genesis: 2:21-24
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

Heavenly Father created a man and a woman and told them to be fruitful and multiply. He did not create a man and a man or a woman and a woman. So the proper order of the sexes was established from the beginning. You all don't get that.

Do you really know what we Mormons believe about marriage and families, here is part of it:

"The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony, and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness in family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities. By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.

I worked hard to get Proposition 8 passed and I am so glad I did. My only regret is I did not do more. I passed out doorknob flyers and I stood on those corners holding signs while your supporters drove by me and called me names, flipped me off and shouted other obscenities at me. I am proud of the stand my church made against the homosexual community. You are a blight on this earth. Your perversion is an abomination against God and the moral fabric of my country.

You think you are going to scare me, other Mormons or our Church into changing our core values by a few protests or boycotts - get serious. We've weathered greater persecution than any other church in the United States. You count for nothing!

The people of California, Florida and Arizona have spoken. But of course, you want activist judges to overthrow the will of the people so you have filed your lawsuits. You have pushed you Gay agenda down Americas throats long enough. I will to my last breath oppose you in every street, park, city and state. I spent 27 years in the Marine Corps defending this country and I will not let such a perverted group of people attempt to legitimize their sexual immorality and attempt to impose it upon this nation.

God bless America, the 52% of Californians, the voters in Arizona and Florida who "get it".

Oh and by the way: No I don't have to
(1) be politically correct;
(2) accept your chosen (emphasis on chosen) life style;
(3) tolerate you and
I can and will judge you. Will I have to answer to my Savior for that, maybe, but its part of the good fight and I like a good fight.

sharksfansd · 1 year ago

If you don't like the "activist" judges you may want to move to Iraq. I hear things are great there right now.

davidinlb · 1 year ago

Bite me.

justlaffin · 1 year ago

And now you see why I left the church. I guess you missed the part of the bible where God states it is his job and only his to judge.
I don't care what someone else does in their bedroom and why should it bother you?
I feel sorry for your wife and children.

wmcot · 1 year ago

Gee, that sounds like you are making a judgemental comment to me!

justlaffin · 1 year ago

lol how do you know I am not God?

wmcot · 1 year ago

God would have better spelling and punctuation!

justlaffin · 1 year ago

Nothing wrong with my spelling and you aren't worth punctuatin' for ...besides while it isn't my native tongue, I speak ignorant redneck so that I can speak to you on your level.

wmcot · 1 year ago

Well, that about sums it up. That response should certainly give a lot of credence to your arguments.

justlaffin · 1 year ago

I am not the one here pushing my "holier than thou" agenda.As far as my arguments, I stand by what I have said before. I think that marriage needs to quit being a legal entitity and become officially only a religious status with civil unions replacing them for legal purposes. I also stand behind any negative comments I have made about the church.
The church has a long history of sexual abuse that has been covered up by men who are in power and also friends of the abusers. Maybe the light of public scrutiny will show it for what it is. A cult.

wmcot · 1 year ago

I totally agree with the first part of your statement about marriage being a religious institution with civil union being a legal institution. To me, that is what the entire issue is about. I have no problem with gays having a legal civil union with all the rights of non-gays. I object to the use of "marriage" as anything other than the traditional, religious definition.

You were going along well until you started the unfounded mudslinging about the "history of sexual abuse." Perhaps you have factual evidence to back this up?

justlaffin · 1 year ago

Wow. Unfounded? Yes I do. I belong to a support group of people who suffered sexual abuse at the hands of "the church".

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

ridiculous, justlaffin -

people suffer abuse at the hands of other people - not the church. And any large group of people has it's bad ones. We've experienced this in part of my family and "the church" certainly did not cover it up, they worked with the victims and the perpetrators to heal, reform, recover, administer justice (church and legal) and repentence and to some degree, forgiveness. It wasn't pretty, but it was handled with care and sensitivity by "the church"

You won't heal until you lay blame where it belongs - with the individuals and not a church that preaches strongly against such sin, perversion and abuse.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

How dare you call this person ridiculous? What gives you the right to make that judgment? How dare you belittle what was experienced? Yeah, yeah, it happened in your family too and it was handled differently. That doesn't mean it is always handled the same way by all elders.

sparky67 · 1 year ago

"The Church" abused you? Is this possible? Isn't "The Church an entity? I would think you actually meant that a MEMBER of "the Church" did this to you. At least a PERSON affiliated with them. If this is true then it was a weak human that hurt you not a church. This person obviously was not following the teaching as was expected of him/her. This indicates that " Church does NOT condone or approve of his/her actions woould you not agree?

PrettyCookie · 1 year ago

Marines... talk about a perverted group of people - not that I didn't enjoy every single minute with them. Perversion, abomination, and sexual immorality - those words make me long for the good old days. Now, does this God of yours propose anything in the Bible that tells us how to deal with the hundreds of thousands of children who are parentless, living in orphanages, group homes, in foster care, or on the street because we men and women were so fruitful in multiplying?

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Right back at you.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Boy, Mormon, you better be sure you're not wrong about God. If you've noticed, there are lots of opinions on the subject. I for one think we'd be better off living in a society where people had a little more humility about their religious beliefs and values and a recognition that no one has the last word on these matters. Try a little tolerance, you'll feel better.

realistman · 1 year ago

it is funny evreyone is talking about the money raised to get people to vote yes (apprx $37 mil) yet it was about the same amount spent for the no vote ($36 mil) it does not matter where the money came from, both parties spent the same amount of money.

tjenkin · 1 year ago

For protesting the institutions these should be marked. Brigham Young University and LDS headquarters and all their Temples. Sundays would be the best for the Temples and LDS headquarters. Prayer and peaceful protest would be best on these days. When not just a Nation but a world sees the pain of this social injustice, change will come. Justice and love is shown by allowing self determination. Otherwise it is called slavery. And Slavery by ideology is just as inhumane as slavery by chains.

wmcot · 1 year ago

FYI, the temples and church office building are closed on Sundays so members of the Mormon church can worship in their local chapels. Then again, if you interrupt their worship, aren't YOU interfering with their freedom of religion? It seems that the constitution doesn't mean much to you unless it's in your own interests.

justlaffin · 1 year ago

Yeah, protest the church headquarters and the temples on Sunday...rotfflmfao.
Every good politician and military leader will tell you to first know your enemy....

realistman · 1 year ago

it is funny that you say boycott Utah. Anybody who knows anything about the LDS church knows that there are many nation wide companies that the church "runs". with just a little research you can get a list of 35 of them. and while yes a majority of them are in Utah or Hawaii. not all of them are. plus what about the companies that buy items from church run facilities should we boycott those too. as an example Harry & Davids (the company that sells gift baskets) buys some organic fruit from the LDS church. so every gift basket you buy puts money in there pocket. the list is endless.

tjenkin · 1 year ago

Someone from LDS using the word Freedom here. Your right....I forgot to read the magical golden tablets on worship locations and the defintion of Mormon freedom though I did see the defintion of marriage which there is no freedom. Having prayer and peaceful protest is not violating anyones right to practice their religion.

wmcot · 1 year ago

Better stop typing. Your intelligence (or lack of it) is showing. Maybe you should study the things you speak about before voicing your opinion.

powerintruth · 1 year ago

If there is one thing I have definitely learned from the anti prop str8 side is that there is an incredible amount of staunchly passionate and misinformed opinions about the the LDS Church. You only have to look at a post from tjenkin and his supporting argumenter, justlaffin, to realize that. Contrast that with the majority of the clear and intelligent posts from many of the LDS members. Amazing difference. The LDS posts bring reasoned conversation, which brings understanding. I've read many of the posts and Justlaffin claims to have been a former member, I imagine to add weight to your comments, yet you were sadly wrong. Shouldn't that undercut your credibility?

justlaffin · 1 year ago

My g-g-g-grandfather was Archibald Gardner. I was born into the church but left when I became an adult after I had been sexually abused by a bishop's son. As for my posts, I suggest you read all of them before making comment. If you had "intelligence", then you would realize I was laughing at the fact he (tjenkin) was suggesting protests on days when the offices and buildings would not be in use. Reading, after all, is fundamental.
As for my credibility, I truly could care less about an intolerant person such as yourself. I try and believe in the WWJD philosophy. I doubt Jesus would approve of this bigotry and hated spewed forth by people such as Mormon.
I don't think gay marriage should be recognized by the government but then I don't think regular marriage should be either.I think it is a religious matter and should be between a person and their church. I support civil unions for all.
For the record, I have been married for 20 years and have 6 children, none of which are gay. I simply have compassion and tolerance, which is largely lacking in the mormon community.

wmcot · 1 year ago

I don't think the LDS church should be held accountable for the words of its members posting here (myself included.) The position of the church has always been that marriage is sacred and defined as between a man and a woman. By supporting Prop. 8, the LDS church was simply stating that definition of marriage that we and other religions accept.

I do support civil unions and could agree that the civil unions should be recognized by the government while "marriage" is recognized by religions.The fact that all couples would have a civil union would guarantee equal rights under the law. I see no problem with LDS doctrine and this position.

As for tolerance in the Mormon community, you might be surprised. Many of our friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc. are openly gay. They are accepted by the majority of the Mormon people I know. I have had gay friends over for dinner, I have been to their homes, my children have had gay teachers (very good teacher, I would add) and even church members have gay children. A true member of the Mormon church would love all men equally while realizing that the doctrine of the church precludes them from participating in all church ordinances. A true member of the Mormon church would realize that people outside the church are good members of society (excluding criminals, of course) and should receive equal treatment under law whether they are straight or gay, Mormon, Catholic, Jewish, Atheist, and so on.

justlaffin · 1 year ago

Sorry but you haven't exhibited those qualities here. Also a church is if nothing but it's people, so the church is accountable for the standings of its' people.

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

And I would add to wmcot's very thought reply, that true, good members of teh Mormon church DO all those things. I to have many gay friends (heck, I even lived in the SF bay area for 10 years - try NOT having a couple of gay friends out there! LOL!). I even had a very close friend who...how do I put it? ....was into a lot of what I would call weird stuff - she wasn't part of a "couple" she was part of a "triple"! LOL! I loved her for her good points - she was welcomed in my home, I asked her to watch my very young children for me on a couple of occassions, she spent holidays with us. We agreed that she would not bring any of that "lifestyle" stuff into my home - just like she would leave work or politics at the door when she came. We didn't try to convert her or convince her that her lifestyle was wrong. We just enjoyed our time together. We had a wonderful friendship, but it had its lines that neither of us crossed.

Most faithful Mormons are incredibly tolerant, loving people - all the venom and the hatred really are spewing from the other side.

powerintruth · 1 year ago

I reread and saw your point and I'm sorry to hear that that happened. Having been someone who was sexually abused and having seen the effects in myself and knowing others in the same experience I have known others who had the same circumstance inflicted upon them and have seen many of those sexual perversions to manifest themselves in adulthood. I know that the majority of people I've known that are homosexual, or promiscuous for that matter, had been exposed as a child to early sexual contact whether forced or not. I know this may not be the experience of all homosexuals but I do not think that this is genetic as much as it is environment unless those who were molested had a genetic propensity to become homosexual once they had experienced it, which dosn't quite make sense. I'm sure that the Bishop's son learned his perversion from somewhere. I have seen the internal destruction of famililies carried through to generations by this sexual immorality, some not even through molestation but by a low respect for the power of procreation or pornography being in the home. This literally destroys families for future generations too. The family is the most important institution we have and it truly is ordained of God. Satan does seek to destroy. Of both I have a sure knowledge. I know of the divinity of Jesus Christ and that He is our Savior and providing the path of eternal families. I believe this to be a state sanctioning of a perversion where people were exposed from a young age that will only encourage more of the same because it will bring no true healing, and from that help and strength to those that are confused. It will only serve to make things more acceptable. I'm sure you can testify that you never want your children to go throught the same thing.

justlaffin · 1 year ago

Wow, you are certainly a one track mind kinda guy. I am a mother of 6 and not gay. Yes, I was promiscuous and can happily say that I led more than one man away from the church, but then we can't all be double jointed and multiorgasmic.
As for the poster who said the "church" did not do this, well, they certainly were aware that it was happening and did nothing to stop it. The bishopric was aware as were some of the stake presidency.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Clear and intelligent? Wow, what I have learned today is that the LDS believers and supporters sound a whole lot like the Southern Baptists.

shanghailvr · 1 year ago

A copy of my letter to the LDS (Mormon) Church Leadership; sent 10/30/08 --BEFORE the election:

Mr. Bowler,

I will begin with assurances that I am NOT a lesbian.

That said, it don't feel it should matter if I were. It simply is the case that I am not.

What I am is a Native Californian. And a Jewish individual who has always had great respect for the LDS Community and faith, defending them at all opportunities, as they, like we, are a people who has been misunderstood and judged by others.

Because of this history, we Jews who live the principles of our people work VERY hard to avoid judging others. In this light, I always welcome my visiting young Missionaries with respect, and on hot days offer a rest of shade and a glass of cool water as we discuss your traditions and mine until they mount their bikes and pedal off into our 100 degree-plus summer heat here in [the hot Central Valley].

It is therefore with great sadness that I am writing you to tell you of my horrific disappointment at the stance the LDS leadership has promoted to Members, and the financial support they have urged from Church communities to press for passage of our California Proposition 8.

Sir, it is not long ago (during my grandparents’ lifetimes in fact) that your Membership was still practicing Polygamy. While I realize it is no longer a condoned practice, that modern polygamists are excommunicated, and that splinter groups are at odds with the larger Church body, I have had to spend as much time defending you folks on that point as I have assuring people that we Jews didn’t actually kill Jesus! Polygamy was certainly a far cry from the one Man/one Woman rule you now demand.

As you know, outsiders can be pretty cruel when their beliefs are threatened by something they don’t understand. “Others” don’t always understand “you,” just as they often don’t understand “us.”

Keeping all of the above points in the fore of my mind, I find it absolutely incomprehensible that the LDS church would take such pains to get so involved in a political issue NOT of their concern (this is neither Utah nor Idaho), is not in any way threatening the right of the Church to carry on as sees fit, and is so dependant upon lies, corruption of facts, and fear as the basis for it’s message.

I will not insult you by posting the objective facts of this Proposition. If you care to know you will have sought the text out yourself, and the fact that the LDS Community at large is being directed to take the stance that the are, tells me there is no actual concern with the truth.

EVERY argument being used to gain passage of this Proposition is untrue! I have been a public school teacher for over 25 years, have graduate degrees and 3 teaching certificates, have been a Race & Human Relations Liaison to the schools, and know unequivocally we are to accept and promote self-confidence in all of our students; if it weren’t an edict I would do it anyway. No child is responsible for the lifestyle of his or her parent. Still the truth is, whether it is Civil Union or Marriage, the children should NEVER be used as pawns in a battle between adults, and I have to think that even in your Church philosophy, this is sinful behavior, and something that you’d rail against were your children the victims of this sort of cultivation of second-hand discrimination.

Further, the children of our state have been subjected to more information regarding homosexual marriages through the endless repetition of your commercials than they EVER have through our schools, which in fact have NO Curriculum Standards that address Gay marriage. And Sir, I take GREAT issue with your money coming here and funding such small-minded, prejudicial, unthinking, loveless dogma to a general public in a State that really does not welcome it.

Since religious faiths run such a wide spectrum of interpretations and applications of the texts they follow, be it the Torah, the Upanishads, the Bhagavad-Gita, the Koran, the Book of Mormon, or the New Testament, and given the huge range and diversity of our State, the rules of a nearly homogeneous Utah simply do not apply here. That is a good thing, as each of our States offers something different to a wide array of Americans.

Surely, you have every right to define Marriage between whomever you desire from and for the LDS constituency, however reaching as far outside as you have, to manipulate and manage another State’s CONSTITUTIONAL content (indisputably heavy stuff) is something you would never tolerate were an onslaught of orgiastic Hedonists to come to Salt Lake City for their annual Spring Frolic. The church’s behavior is simply ruthless and unforgivable. The time and money that it will cost the citizenry on appeal in this economy is ludicrous; the fact is that it will be for naught since if it passes, it will be overturned as unlawful discrimination, and makes this all so pointless. Wouldn’t you have been better off funding something of more widespread usefulness than launching this onslaught which has tuned out to be the most expensive State Propositional battle in US history?

The rules of “Live and let Live” and nondiscrimination is the framework that allows your faith, oft still considered a mere cult by some, to thrive. It is nothing short of shameful that your people, still misunderstood and judged, are doing so little to avoid judgment towards and promote understanding of others.

I will end with this. It is a damn shame that someone like me, who as been such a staunch supporter of your community’s rights has become completely disillusioned by the Church through this manipulative campaign for passage of California’s Proposition 8. Sadder still that I am made to feel foolish after years of defending your differences. I assure you I will not be making that mistake again.

And you can take this to the bank. Opinion of your community has taken a negative turn here. Californians are open and accepting, but they have a funny tendency to defend their own, as random as that sometimes looks to outsiders. As completely as you have convinced yourselves that your actions in this are on the side of G-d, I assure you, they are not, and it will come home to roost. I hope for your sakes that your Doctrine includes a clause in support of Martyrdom, because I think this will have ripples and you are going to have to find a way to explain to your membership how to weather the loss of respect you had gained, once the general opinion shifts.

Just a prediction from the place I sit.

Disgusted,
(signed)

PrettyCookie · 1 year ago

I heterosexually love you.

powerintruth · 1 year ago

Should the ban on polygamy be challenged and repealed as a form of marriage if it consists of consenting adults? That is the slippery slip we can easily head down if we have to first start with the redefinition of marriage by including same sex marriage in CA. Technically speaking, those that seek to practice plural marriage, especially for reasons of faith, are having their civil rights violated by a law that discriminates against this form of marriage.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Nice one. NOT. Consenting adults? Hmm, not unless all the LDS money goes into supporting dropping the legal age quite a bit.

wmcot · 1 year ago

In fact, the LDS church sees the issue of marriages between anyone other than 1 man and 1 woman as a MORAL issue and not a LEGAL issue. I would argue that every church has the obligation to let its stance on moral issues be heard. Once that is done, it is up to the local population to decide on the legal aspects of the moral issue. Most times, taking a moral stance will not make you popular. The LDS church and the other churches and groups in the coalition for Proposition 8 are not interested in being popular. They are interested in being true to their beliefs. I'm sorry if you don't see that.

BTW - you mentioned that you are Jewish. What is the Jewish stance on gay marriage?

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

A couple of points in response to your letter to the Church:

First, thank you for being such a staunch defender in the past. I think if you look, the Church has always been a very staunch supporter of Jews and especially of Israel (one of the BIG reasons we tend to vote Republican while, for some unfathomable reason, Jews tend to support Democrats - who are always undermining Israel - but that's an argument for another day)

Second, polygamist marriages ARE between one man and one woman. Each individual marriage is between one man and one woman. Even if the man has more than one wife - it isn't a three way marriage - it is a man and a woman. Each child born knows who his father is and who his mother is and there is no confusion of parents, partners, gender, etc. Also, a number polygamist marriages are sanctioned by God in the Old Testament - including Father Abraham's. So the religious angle there really works in our favor.

In addition, even if gay couples raise children, each of those children HAD to start with "one man and woman" - so nature and logic are on our side too.

Third, the church only spoke to their own "constituency" regarding this. They asked church members who live in California to support the cause for Prop 8. I live in Utah and never heard ONE WORD in church or anywhere else asking us to send money or spend time on Prop 8. But in a feeling of solidarity for other members in California and for the good of a cause we think honorable, many Mormons from other states or other countries made contributions. In government, this is done all the time. People donate to other states' Senate or Congressional races where they would like to see their party succeed. People send money for aid to help people in other states who are in trouble. There are no boundry lines for financially supporting causes you think are just.

The point here is the Church itself didn't mount the charge, didn't donate money, didn't do anything but encourage its members in California to exercise their right of free speech and their right to vote to support a cause that everyone knows will have reach beyond California.

Live and let Live is fine only up to a point. Government doesn't allow a lot of behaviors that THE PEOPLE feel are detrimental to the health and welfare of its country and population. That's what ALL laws are about. THE PEOPLE trying to enact laws to maintain itself at its best. This is no different. The majority of THE PEOPLE in California exercised their right to vote. The opposistion spent just as much money running ads and fighting the fight - then it was up to THE PEOPLE to decide.

And they did.

You can't possibly be more disappointed in the outcome of that vote than I am of the outcome of the Presidential vote! But I'm not going to call for a buoycott of the 95% black population who voted for the Socialist-elect. THE PEOPLE have spoken - and we all have to be grownups and live with the results.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

You're a treat.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

And not a good one, a quite sour one. Socialist-elect? Do you have a dictionary handy? Or better yet, do you ever make a decision based on fact rather than what you are told? You cling so hard to your Bible, what about clinging to the Constitution for once?

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Thank you. This is a fanastic letter and I hope you get an equally intelligent response.

DeeBee · 1 year ago

"Sorry, but when you donate nearly 80% of the money to the anti-gay effort..." I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers. According to the San Jose Mercury-News, "Among the 12 percent of total donations that came from outside California, about 45 percent came from Utah." Even if we allow the entire state of Utah to be a proxy for the Mormon Church, my arithmetic still comes out as about five-and-a-half percent -- way short of "80% of the money..." And if 12% of the money in support of Prop 8 coming from out of state bothers you, what about the 21% of out-of-state money that went to opponents of Prop 8? Overall, the opponents of Prop 8 outspent the proponents yet were still defeated. It sounds like some people are upset that they didn't get their money's worth.

powerintruth · 1 year ago

Another great point. Truth is...the other side will not look at or acknowledge that fact because it may cause them to stop the blind emotional charge to target the Mormon Church. Why aren't these people marching against Obama since he did turn out a significant minority electorate that was not there before? The latino(not sure of the exact %) and African-American(75%!!) community did overwhelmingly vote for prop str8. Law of unintended consequences. Why aren't the marches targeting Inglewood, Compton, East L.A, San Bernadino County, Riverside, or Orange County? I think we all know the blatantly evident answer. You're afraid to. So, you go after the easy target to scapegoat! Don't you feel foolish allowing blind emotions to dictate your behavior? Use some reason please.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Marching against Obama? What on earth does he have to do with this? Bitter much?

PrettyCookie · 1 year ago

At the end of the day, why does anyone really want to get married? It's not that fantastic and perhaps Goldie and Kurt have tapped into the real meaning of unity which doesn't include the necessity for that $100 piece of paper. One day you say "I DO" and the next thing you know you're having to set special "date nights" just to access the va-jay-jay you thought you had purchased an all-access pass to with that Kmart diamond, his socks never seem to make it into the laundry basket (EVER), the atrocious snoring has forced you to take cover in the empty room next door, the question of "what's for dinner" seems to spark an instant death match, he gains 80 pounds but still pokes fun at your chubby best friend, every night is a bloody battle for the remote control, and you can't quite figure out why he calls it nagging especially since if he listened the first time around it wouldn't really BE nagging. Silver lining, there it is.

DeeBee · 1 year ago

TRU' DAT!!!

powerintruth · 1 year ago

LOL. I think I finally learned what my wife meant by the "listening the first time" part.

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

Sorry if that describes YOUR marriage. Not so much mine.
BUT...all marriage DO have rocky days - or months - or years - and that $100 piece of paper is a reminder of the COMMITMENT you made to stay together through the bad times long enough to get back to the good times. By making divorce difficult (at least it used to be) it should make you choose more carefully whom you marry and encourage you to work through the problems instead of just walking out when things get tough.

Of course, there's also that little issue about marriage being the way God told us to do it - but I find a lot of you folks on this site don't worry too much on that score. The rest of us still do.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

WIth a national divorce rate of 50% it doesn't show that divorce is difficult or that it encourges people to be careful with their choice and stick it out when the going gets tough

Love is the commitment, the certificate is just a piece of paper. It doesn't make anyone love each other more.

Isn't it time for you to take your moral high horse out for a stroll?

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

LOL, your post is just a reminder to me why I decided long ago to not get married.

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

At the end of the day, why does anyone really want to get married?

I didn't want to get married at first. But in the end, I decided to because 1) There was a MAJOR tax advantage, 2) We would save a little money on health insurance, 3) I wanted my partner to be my next of kin, with all that entails, and 4) I wanted people in my family and social circle to take my relationship as seriously as they took others' marriages.

I would like gay couples to have the same benefits.

PrettyCookie · 1 year ago

I'm all for gay marriage - in the end it's your funeral. I just think marriage is overrated and at the rate divorces and spousal murders are going, they're not exactly as sacred an institution as some groups would like to believe they still are. I just think gay marriage's time will come, after all it wasn't long ago some in our government believed interracial marriage and relationships were wrong and if the general populous had agreed with them then the world wouldn't have Barack Obama and I wouldn't have the two most beautiful half-breed children in the world.

Marinesniper · 1 year ago

Seems like a bunch of people got their panties in an uproar and need someone to hold accountable for the passing of proposition 8. It seems that many in the gay community want to blame the Mormons for the passage of Prop 8. While the LDS church may have contributed a large amount of money to help the media campaign reach as many people as possible, it would be ludicrous to hold them solely responsible for the success of the campaign. Why not consider the good people of California who made their voice heard and showed the world how important the sanctity of marriage is to them. For years people have stood back and watch the perversion of Homosexuality and Lesbianism shoved down their throats, working its way into the very fabric of our society, They stood quietly by the sidelines and watched the events around them unfold, quietly and strongly protecting their families. When Gays and Lesbians began attacking the traditional family unit these good people cried out "ENOUGH IS ENOUGH" and supported Prop 8.People are crying out that proposition 8 is equal to social injustice, and that those who voted to pass proposition 8 are bigots and should be "held accountable" for the horrible crime of expressing their beliefs by supporting a cause that is important to them. Those of you who are commenting that everyone should act out against the Mormons for their support of Prop 8 most likely don't realize that members of the LDS church have been protested against, ostracized and been the victim of countless act of violence against them for over 100 years. We have had our homes and temples destroyed, our families killed and been forced out of the towns and cities where we peacefully coexisted with our neighbors for years. Your protests against us now will not intimidate us, and we will not be forced to acquiesce to the beliefs of those who disagree with our decisions. We are NOT bigots for protecting the sanctity of the traditional family, It is unfair and immoral to call us bigots and gay-bashers simply because we financially support a cause that is important to us. If we are gay-bashing, then those who fight against our cause should be considered straight-bashers. Mormons vehemently support the traditional family, and we will not be forced to change our position through threats and intimidation tactics. We are not the only church who believes what we are doing is right, but we will stand for all churches and protect our beliefs to the end. We live in this world, but are not of it and we hold ourselves accountable to the will of GOD not the will of man. So we will meet you in our temples, and in our churches and in the streets of America wherever and whenever you threaten our way of life.

powerintruth · 1 year ago

In the liberal media prop 8 is branded the "anti-gay initiative", the same sex marriage side uses the slogan of "no on prop H8"(anti str8 from my side), and the CA Attorney General Jerry Brown words the actual prop 8 ballot with the words "eliminates the rights of same-sex couples to marry"(changing the original ballot language of "only marriage between a man and a woman is recognized" at the last minute), all anti str8 parties rarely mentioned that the voter initiative in 2000 passed to keep marriage between a man and a woman and the courts over ruled the will of the people, to only confuse the public on the issue and further the various parties hidden agenda. While I don't think the majority of YES ON 8 voters hate anyone or were voting against anyone more than they were voting to protect the hetero definiton of marriage and not have gay marriage taught in the public school classroom(96% of schools are required to teach about marriage and parent's would not have a right to be notified prior to the teaching about gay marriage nor would the parents have had the right to remove their children from the class if the lesson did not discuss the funtions of the sexual organs. Would the other sides parents feel equally strong if the Churches then forced religion to be taught in public classrooms and there would be no right of the parent to remove their child from the lesson? Those with a hidden extreme agenda won't tell you but they would love to teach that this lifestyle is OK to justify their homosexual behavior. Not with my kids!!!

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Unbelievable. At the end of the day it does not matter. At some point in their lives your children will be "exposed" to gay people and there is nothing you can do about it. There have been gay people as long as their have been straight. There is nothing to say that a child of yours isn't gay. It is science and not personal decision.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Traditional marriage? As long as their are still factions of your religion that practice one man, as many women as he wants then you have nothing to say about anyone else.

FLGuy · 1 year ago

You completely negate the free will and voting choice of Californians who voted to ban gay marriage by focusing simply on the people who campaigned for Prop 8. Did the Mormon church brainwash everyone who voted to ban gay marriage? Of course not. The fact of the matter is, Californian voters have spoken, and made their choice known. The gay/lesbian lobby spent millions for their position, while the Mormons, and many other groups, spent millions on their position. Do you see people marching in the streets en masse criticizing gays for being gay? No. People expressed their views the right way -- by voting. I'm sorry that the public didn't vote the way that you want, but your immaturity and, frankly, narrow-minded response is saddening.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

And if your side had lost you would've been complaining about the celebrity effect. Their free will is based on fear and misinformation.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Constitutional rights should not be taken away from anyone by a mere vote of a majority. If it is OK to do that with Prop 8, there is no reason the same thing cannot happen to other constitutional rights. If you're going to be intellectually consistent, FLGuy, then you have to agree that you would fully support the "will of the voters" if they decided to take away the California Constitution's right to free exercise of religion -- but only for Mormons, or Catholics, or Jews, or atheists, or whatever religion you happen to belong to.

shanghailvr · 1 year ago

To Mormon...

"Do you really know what we Mormons believe about marriage and families"

The key words here, are of course, "We Mormons..."
And yes, I for one, do.

NO ONE is taking away the Church’s right to promote this belief system to their members, "YOU Mormons..." Feel free to keep your one Man, one Woman paradigm; Heaven knows it is a positive evolution from your LDS Polygamy of a mere 100 years ago.

The reality is that Members of the gay Community who are marrying tend to do it for the same loving, committed, offspring-centric and honorable reasons that you do, and the fact that your Community does not approve has no bearing on its being a Constitutionally guaranteed right, an the inevitable US Supreme Court case will find. As a straight woman, and a passionate believer in EQUAL Civil Rights for ALL, I actually welcome this debate, as should every Gay person seeking equal treatment, for as in all areas pertaining to US Law, it takes some noise to get things moving towards Supreme Court resolution,.

In my view of things, you and your LDS Community have actually set the wheels in motion to have this decided on a Federal level. If you think my powers of insight and foresight are lacking, see my previous post-- the letter to your church administration, written long before most of the discussion on this occurred, and before the election.

As for the California "No on Prop 8 " voters being distracted by or assuming more support, you are far too presumptuous. All of those who “get” the Politic know that there are 3 Moderate/Liberal SC Justices up for retirement; the primary thrust had to be to insure that McCain/Palin and their kowtowing crowd of Conservative Christian (and in this case I fold LDS into that group) voter base lost, so that the remarkable Pres-elect Mr. Obama could make appointments of 3 new Justices, aided by the thoughtful wisdom of his own knowledge of, love for, and pure dedication to the Constitution. In that vein, just as interracial marriages are now valid as seen by the court (and even by the LDS church, as evidenced by their perpetual trotting out of Thurl Bailey, the token Black high-profile member), the day will be soon that this precedent is applied to Gays as well.

A note to all of you who are Angry:

Take a deep breath, steal yourselves for a 6 year process, but know that in the end, your case will be heard in Washington and it will be decided in favor of Gay Marriage. Remember the time it has taken between MLK and Obama…You just have to work steadily, peacefully, and patiently. Don’t let the Mormons, the Knights of Columbus, or any other group promoting their own religiously-based methodology get you riled-up. Obama won through his calm and kindness, while McCain and Palin got nastier and uglier, until in the end they looked like hideous schoolyard bullies! Is it any wonder people could not put our Nation in the Hands of that type of Temperament? Be strong, and dignified. Continue to build your loving relationships, raise your children, and keep supporting the groups that are helping to wage this fight. Protest, but calmly. Do nothing that can get a finger wagged in your direction. Keep your eye on the long-term goal and do not waiver!

Worry not, as ultimately Good rules in all things, and this will be decided on the side of Liberty and Justice for ALL; Gays, too!

And “Mormon”: remember that we do have a legal separation of Church & State in this country, and that current research shows that there is an increasing concern over the infusion of Faith into our National Politics, a Reagan-ear relic. We as a Nation are seeing how utterly un-Democratic that approach is, how contentious and destructive it can be. Your species is moribund, My Dear.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Fantastic statement!!!!!

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

WOW, JUST WOW! So glad an enlightened soul like you is on our side. Thank you for being with us.

shanghailvr · 1 year ago

FL guy: "You completely negate the free will and voting choice of Californians who voted to ban gay marriage by focusing simply on the people who campaigned for Prop 8."


Free will had little to do with this. The well educated, and knowledgable folks voted NO. The vote was carried by the rural communities who are busy ranching and farming all day to feed all of us and whohad not ime for reseraching. As such, they had little to go on but the wholly deceptive and devious campaign of the YES side.

It was fear-based, manipulative, and frankly well beneath the tenents of even the Commandment against "Bearing Flase Witness," since of course you all KNEW it would not make a single change in the public school curriculum, which already respects the rights of parents to opt -out and dis-enroll their children from ANY part of the curriculum that they protest.

The school element was a Red Herring issue!

powerintruth · 1 year ago

Incorrect. I take it you group yourself with the well educated therefore you must already know that marriage is mandated to be taught in 96% of the state classrooms and that parents do not have the right to opt out of a same sex marriage teaching if the function of the sexual organs are not discussed let alone be informed to have the choice to opt out prior to the teaching. Since you must have the knowledge because your greater intelligence affords you the luxury of researching the facts I guess it was you who's deceptive and throwing the red herring, right? I'm sure the area you were alluding to was the Central Valley, and I actually come from the county that had the highest percentage of YES voters in the state. But hey, what do I know, Oh enlightened one? Thank goodness for some good ol' common sense wisdom out here. P.S. Please check the facts again...the enitre area of SOUTHERN CA voted YES as a majority in ALL counties except Santa Barbara County. What? No Los Angeles County? No Orange County? No San Diego County? O, enlightened one. You must have hailed from that uber smart small section of counties rougnly surrounding the San Francisco Bay area where the NO votes were in the majority.

shanghailvr · 1 year ago

Incorrect. Parents opt-out all the time, including from Standarized Testing, which I wish more would do! But that's another discussion ;)

Having taught 8th grade Science in Cal, which covers the Family Life unit, I will simply say that there was no mandated discussion of Gay Unions or Marriage in the Curriculum, just as we don't get into Single parent households.

However, given how many of our enrollment come from one or the other, including single never-married sperm bank recipient mothers, I think that should be taken up as an independant issue. The kids are WAY ahead of us on this, and they have questions. I feel I need to be able to responsibly and sensitiviely address their concerns. They are our citizens, too.

bozemanmontana · 1 year ago

I would think that some parents would welcome the introduction of lgbtiq theory into their child's life...what a perfect teachable moment. The parents could teach the children that these are the people we hate, that they're not deserving of equal treatment under the law, that it's OK to treat them unfairly because of some ancient text which damns them to hell. Which could be interesting if said parent happened to have a lgbtiq child who's still questioning if it's safe to come out to the parents. Wow.

RainbowPhoenix · 1 year ago

The STATE does not mandate the teaching of marriage in class. The school boards mandate it and if the wish they can un-mandate it.

lilyannerose · 1 year ago

I'm so sorry aqbout Prop 8 and I'm delighted to see this fight taken where it needs to be taken, too often outside money gets funneled into these state props and the perps never have to face up to their action. I say go get em!

powerintruth · 1 year ago

Yeah! What do you say lily? How bout we get those people that contributed to the No on 8 side since a greater percentage of money was donated from out of state to their campaign?

powerintruth · 1 year ago

No? I thought we were getting the perps?

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

How much money do you think goes into Senatorial and Congressional races from sources outside the particular state? How much money do you think folks like Streisand, Souros, etc. donate to politcal races around the country? How many of Al Franken's Hollywood friends do you think donated to his election campaign?

How much money do people from this country send to other countries to help them accomplish goals we think are worth accomplishing?

This is nothing new, nothing unsual, nothing insidious or unfair. It's the way freedom works. You can contribute to any person, any cause, any ANYTHING that you think is right.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Separation of church and state

shanghailvr · 1 year ago

Thank you for your questions:

Jewish response to Gay Marriages...

TYPICALLY, the Jewish stance on Gay Marriage breaks down by the various "Movements" of the Jewish Community. The Ultra-Orthodox and Hassidic groups will take a Torah (Woman + Man) approach. It was the only reasonable way to go 5000 years ago as the Writings were codified. Children meant security, workforce, and legal rights of inheritance. Remember that all ancient tribal systems, including ancient Hebrews, enacted rules that were codified to make the greatest chance for the survival of the group. If you could reinforce that code with a Mythology that reinforced it, then you had some control over your lives. Hence, the Torah, and all of the Religious Mythologies that have spun-off of it.

The more Modernist groups, (Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewalist, and Humanist) groups then to be supportive and Gay marriages have been performed among those camps for decades. The middle child, Conservative Movement, is officially still clinging to NO as a policy, however significant numbers of the membership is typically at odds with that and does prefer that Gay Marriages be honored.

As for Israel:

The LDS Community as well as other Christian groups support Israel for reasons having, at least in part, to do with realization of their own Prophecies, ones the Jewish Community does not validate. The US will ALWAYS support Israel, as it is in their interest to do so Politically, Israel being the Oldest and strongest Democracy it the Middle East. I am skeptical about how some Christians would react were that NOT the case, or if they did not want to maintain access to their "Holy Sights."

However, that said, when a country such as Israel has been fighting for their lives, US desire to back them looks mighty good. How scary it must be for MOST Israelis to consider the outcome of US talking to Iran and the other regimes who have made public their desire to see the end of Israel.

But there is a growing faction of Israelis who would prefer to try the Peace approach. It is a tenant in our Torah, and I believe it makes good sense in the new and ever more connected world. Pragmatically, when one looks at 60 years of Statehood and never a year of Peace and Quiet, it seems all alternatives should be examined.

shanghailvr · 1 year ago

Oops!

I forgot to add this...

Is it just me who has a really hard time with this from LadyJethro?

"Second, polygamist marriages ARE between one man and one woman. Each individual marriage is between one man and one woman. Even if the man has more than one wife - it isn't a three way marriage - it is a man and a woman."

Sorry, but I always hear "One Man and a BUNCH of Women;" call it what you like.

And a bit of History on Jewish-Democratic affiliation:
Even less religously observant Jews tend to participate strongly in what we call "Tikkun Olam" or Healing the World. As such, we typically vote with the Democratic Party, which has a tendency to side with the Underdog, take on Social Justice issues, and care more for the People than for their Holdings. Our sriving for the same was manifested by our early 1900s Union Organizing, our strong participation in the Southern Civil Rights Movement of the 60s, our high representation in Public Legal practice and Social Action movements, which resonates true to our heritage; hence our strong ties to the Dems.

ladyjethro · 1 year ago

Yes, I knew you'd have a problem with my explanation of polygamist marriages being between one man and one woman - even though your ARE , by your own account, one of the "well educated and knowlegable" folks. Each marriage performed is between one man and one woman. Each family has one father and one mother. And as I said, this practice was sanctioned - and even commanded at times - by God in the Bible. Abraham was ordered to take a second wife. Jacob had at LEAST two. Solomon didn't get criticized until he got up to 1000! So evidently God doesn't perceive polygamy as the moral problem he does homosexuality.

Second, yes, I understand why Jews might have voted Democrat 100 or even 50 years ago. But when vicious anti-Semites like Jimmy Carter, when folks like Obama go to Anti-Semite churches who count Farakhan as a friend - are the folks running the Democrat party - you'd think the Jews would wake up and smell the coffee.

Social Justice is right out of communist manifesto - Freedom is the only social justice - the rest is government interference and always causes havoc.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

WOW. That is all I have to say.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

One man, a bunch of women and dozens of children. All on welfare. Don't believe it? Read the book "Escape".

This is unnatural, and it directly affects my life via taxes.

abrivio · 1 year ago

I am NOT Swiss. I am an American LIVING in Switzerland. You NAVARRO assume too much. And who said anything about HATE or Jews or Plagues?? Where are you coming from? I love all races and religions. Remember I stated my roommate of 2 years was gay and I still have many gay friends who respect and UNDERSTAND my opinion? I just don't think gay marriage is acceptable. The Mormons believe what they believe, you believe what you want to believe an I believe what I want. Thank God we have a Democratic government and Americans are able to vote for what THEY believe in. Just face it that you lost and it may be a long while before this proposal is EVER passed. Your strong feelings being gay are just as strong as our feelings NOT AGREEING with gay marriage. It is the most unnatural topic I have ever had to try to understand and adding children to the equation to gay couples disturbs me even more. I am NOT Mormon, I am happy for Obama, I love ELLEN I am NOT prejudice toward any group, etc....it is just not right for many people that gay couples can be married. The proof was in the voting!

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

How can you say you are not prejudiced? Seriously? I also am straight and haved lived with a gay roommate (ala Will and Grace) for almost 7 years. There is supposed to be a separation of church and state. There are supposed to be civil rights. How would a gay couple being married directly affect your life?

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

Exactly. Thank you, RIPWAMU. You're being straight adds extra weight to what you've just added. Thanks for joining us, your gay brothers and sisters, in solidarity.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Thank you :-)

I feel although we have taken a huge step forward with electing an African American to the highest office in the land, we also took a few steps back for the civil rights of the GLBT community. So, I am elated and sad all at the same time.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Constitutional rights should not be taken away from anyone by a mere vote of a majority. If it is OK to do that with Prop 8, there is no reason the same thing cannot happen to other constitutional rights. If you're going to be intellectually consistent, abrivio, then you have to agree that you would fully support the "will of the voters" if they decided to take away the California Constitution's right to free exercise of religion -- but only for Mormons, or Catholics, or Jews, or atheists, or whatever religion you happen to belong to.

DMNavarro · 1 year ago

Sorry for Switzerland then that you represent America for us over there.

ImpeachBO · 1 year ago

Actually it looks like the gay community created a problem for themselves. The Mormon church is only exercising their right of free speech just like the gay community. Get over it. Demonizing the Mormon church is not going to change the fact that it passed. California spoke and they don't want gay marriage.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Between your screen name and your comment I'd say you are the one who needs to get over it. A majoity of this country is moving on from racist, hate mongering sentiment. Get over it.

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

Yes, "ImpeachBO" is quite an interesting screen name. Impeach him FOR WHAT? Getting elected and trying to lead this country out of the nightmare you REPUGNANTcans have created over this past eight years?

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

The church did a helluva lot more than exercise their right to free speech. They effectively took away people's civil liberties. Your rights end where others' begin.

The South wanted segregation, and I think many places there would still vote to institutionalize it. Should that be allowed?

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Constitutional rights should not be taken away from anyone by a mere vote of a majority. If it is OK to do that with Prop 8, there is no reason the same thing cannot happen to other constitutional rights. If you're going to be intellectually consistent, ImpeachBO, then you have to agree that you would fully support the "will of the voters" if they decided to take away the California Constitution's right to free exercise of religion -- but only for Mormons, or Catholics, or Jews, or atheists, or whatever religion you happen to be.

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

One idea that I plan on using is when the Mormon Cult sends the guys out on "missions" is to press charges against them for trespassing when they knock on my door.

FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE MORMON CULT AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY.

Keep their false religion out of our government and out of our lives. We are a secular nation with laws, not a theocracy governed by splinter religious groups and their ideals of hate, division and exclusiveness. Use the IRS against them wherever and whenever possible and boycott hate groups and those that support them.

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

Here's an interesting list that could be used against the Mormon Cult.

http://www.mormonstockindex.com/

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Darn, I just used Priceline last week. Curse you WIlliam Shatner for tempting me with low prices!!!!!!

However, I did get a fantastic deal on a room at the Drake in Chicago. lol

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

Hey, Ben:

How many of those on the stock index have contributed to angi-gay causes? Do you know? We are trying to target those people who have specifically given to anti-gay causes to show them a "little mutual love" if you know what I mean.

PissedSissy · 1 year ago

This is all well and good, yet it is a verifiable fact that the Mormons (and other right wing religions) spent large sums of money to help promote a "yes" victory on Prop 8, the most relevant fact in this matter is that the citizens of CALIFORNIA, not Utah, enshrined bigotry into the CALIFORNIA constitution, NOT the Utah constitution. Therefore, while I think a campaign against the Mormon church and their related businesses is warranted, the PRIMARY target should be CALIFORNIA, not Utah. There should be a COMPLETE boycott of this state - from their produce to their ENTERTAINMENT industry. BOYCOTT CALIFORNIA. If you live there and are so able, deprive the state of your time, talents and tax dollars by MOVING to a far more gay-friendly state - and be SURE to let your employer, your real estate agent, your landlord know WHY you're doing so. BOYCOTT CALIFORNIA - anything less than this is simply not seeing the forest for the trees.

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

Nope, we are working on an effective boycott. Mormons are the target.

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

California is, like, the fifth largest economy in the world. And given how much food comes from California in the winter, it would be very difficult for an American to boycott everything from that state.

gar1314 · 1 year ago

You also got some bad info, the "Mormon" church didn't really put any money at all into supporting prop 8. Now the members of the LDS church donated their own money of their own choice to support a cause they believe in. If they aren't allowed to do that then the supporters of No on 8 shouldn't have been able to donate money to their cause either.

Apphouse50 · 1 year ago

All one need do is read Krakauer's "Under the Banner of Heaven" to know that official Mormon history is replete with the most insane lies and manipulation. So it's super amusing when they now try to make nice and do their persecution complex routine to deflect criticism that translates into tourism bucks. This religion has always been relentless and unethical, but one thing they understand is dough. That's where to hit 'em.

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

I agree. I'm not going to sit idly by and let the Mormon Cult destroy my family. Since they want a fight, it's a fight they'll get.

End Mormon Cult intrusion into secular Civil Rights.

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

THIS is why we have separation fo church and state. To protect the STATE from the CHURCH, and protect the CHURCH from the STATE. Mormons, when you get involved in nasty politics then you REAP what you sew. How about concentrating on helping the poor, homeless and disadvantaged? Oh, thats right... that is what churches do, not Political Action Committees that CURRENTLY enjoy tax exempt status. Its time for the IRS to get rid of their tax exemptions!

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

I wonder if the 20,000 married gay couples that have now been denied access to their Civil Rights could possibly file Class Action lawsuits against the Mormon Cult?

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

I think they need a team of the best constitutional lawyers to file a lawsuit against the states who have passed similar legislation as well as the government if needed. After 8 years of having our Constitution lambasted it is time we get back to our basic rights and protecting them.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Absolutely. That money could have been used to get some of the followers off the welfare rolls. Or to promote good will and help others who are struggling.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

Actually, let's all move on over to the www.change.gov website and suggest that tax exempt status for religious organziations be audited and that the tax policies on tax exempt status be updated. Just another way to shore up the country's coffers.

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

done.

nonesuchfarm · 1 year ago

I don't get it, boycott Utah...the friends and liberal minded people of CA are the ones that voted against the proposition?? I can't imagine over 50% of the population in CA is mormon. Sounds like the place you live is the problem, not a state a couple of hundred miles away. people should move out of CA this would be a real boycott, not one of convienence.

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

The Mormon Cult is headquartered in SLC, Utah. The Mormon Cult threw millions of dollars aimed at denying people their Civil Rights.
I say take the fight to the Mormon Cultists that supported the effort with their millions. Right on the front steps of their home.

RIPWAMU · 1 year ago

I think one of the main points is this was a CA initiative. Why did Utah LDS have to get involved. They made their decision and those of us standing with the gay community would like to return the favor. Funny how the LDS supporters say this happened in California and not Utah so leave us alone. Sorry, but stay out of their yard and they will stay of yours

bozemanmontana · 1 year ago

I had three friends dress as Mormon missionary boys for Halloween...white shirt, black tie, name tag and little blue book. Someone suggested that our lgbtiq community should start copying the missionaries' dress code and stage public make-out sessions as shock theater...

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

What a great idea! I love it.

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

Do it in front of their temples, and tell news crews, "I've SEEN the light! I'm a mormon, and I finally caught 'the gay' Hallelujah! I'm going to start a polygamous gay Mormon cult!" Would that ever freak them out? LOL

RainbowPhoenix · 1 year ago

As funny as that sounds, I can see it backfiring spectacularly on us.

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

Yes, it would.

Just KIDDING, folks. Just kidding! LOL

tonyo · 1 year ago

Gov. Huntsman referred to my town as "The Independent Republic" of Park City - a "bubble of sanity" to quote Patton Oswalt... We encourage the world's skiiers & riders - straight and gay - to fly into Salt Lake International, bypass the bigots in Temple Square, and head directly up the hill to The P.C. - just follow the Obama yard signs.
Ski Utah!
- Tony O.
Professional Entertainer & Militant Agnostic
myspace.com/parkcitypro

lespool · 1 year ago

The guilt of "sin" (originally for doing naught but gaining MODESTY --- the proof that amounts to god's amazing omniscience doncha know) belongs to homosexually obsessed "self-identified" heterosexuals. But the problem with "self-identified" heterosexuals, obsessing over homosexual lifestyles is that is isn't conducive to heterosexuality. Straight people, comfortable in their sexuality think about the opposite sex --- not how same-sex couples might be f*****g. Come out of the closet people and stop boring heterosexuals with your flaming penchant for gay sex.

smileyboyz2 · 1 year ago

Here is what I find amazing is that people would be so enraged by LDS Mormons and Utah when Utah did not even get to vote on Prop 8. The Catholic church and other religious beliefs and backgrounds also voted no on Prop 8 and yet the LDS Church is who you choose to attack. This does not make sense in the voters are who chose Prop 8. The LDS Church and many other churches all took a stanse against Prop 8 and I dont see the majority of people going after anyone but LDS. It makes those people attacking LDS look like they know nothing on Prop 8. To boycott Utahs Brand would hurt many Gay/Lesbian people who work and live in Utah. There are many cities who do not believe that gay marriage should be banned and now angry people are taking it out on everyone in Utah gay or straight. Its too bad that hate and anger could consume people to see things in such a one way view point verses listen to the very different people who actually voted no on Prop 8. There were many reasons Prop 8 didnt not pass and many of them do not have to do with the LDS Religion. You should research your facts before going after one group.

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

When the Mormon Cult stops throwing millions of dollars toward denying people their Civil Rights, I'll stop supporting boycotts of the Mormon Cult's home base.

END MORMON CULT INTRUSION INTO SECULAR CIVIL RIGHTS.

A strong boycott will empower the good citizens, businesses and industries to rise up against the Mormon Cult and put a stop to their brand of hatred, division and exclusion.

wibs · 1 year ago

The Mormons bankrolled 80% of this initiative. Yes, people from all groups voted against equal rights for gay people, and yes there are a few Mormons who voted against Prop 8, but the Mormons as group hold primary responsibility because without that money Prop 8 would have failed. They used the power of their church to motivate those that hate. That money allowed them to scare millions of people using the airwaves of CA with outrageous lies about gay people. The Mormons are responsible for spreading these lies and taking away the civil rights of a group of people.

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

The protesters are going after the Mormons because they provided the vast majority of the money to sponsor Prop 8. They are going after Utah because people perceive that state to be run by the church.

I'm not defending it, but it really is as simple as that.

FireandBrimstone · 1 year ago

It is for this reason that nature (you all don't believe in God) has wisely selected AIDS to deal with this aberation that can harm our species. The best part of your sickness is that the cures have kept many of you alive so it can spread it to more of your kind.

Perhaps Darwin had a point. Survival of the fittest. Aberations will be trimmed off.

In either case I will be spending lots of money made shorting New York Times stock in Utah
thanking them and rewarding them for the bravery they have shown against a bunch of hate and probably disease filled perverts bent on teaching their misery to children. May AIDS kiss you full on the lips. You see if you were normal you would not spread a disease that kills you. ANd no, I no longer care about your suffering...in fact we have a saying when one of you Godless perverts dies..there goes another one who finally knows the awful truth. Blogs like this prove you have worn out your novelty and welcome. Spiritually speaking, unless you repent, AIDS will look like a walk in the park compared to HELL "but it'll kinda getcha ready" to quote the woman who's effigy your gay misoginist pals in West Hollywood hung. Something for them to ponder when their bloated bodies begin to rot and stink form the inside out while the slowly die. You think you're angry? You have no idea

foxy · 1 year ago

I guess hurricane Katerina was G-d's way of getting rid of poverty as well in your eyes.

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

Perhaps Darwin had a point. Survival of the fittest.

That phrase did not originate with Darwin. It was a mischaracterization of the theory of natural selection someone else blurted out in the later 1800s.

Typical of a modern "Christian" -- you and your god have no sympathy for the millions of AIDS orphans in Africa, or their (heterosexual) parents who suffered long, lingering deaths. Jesus would be proud.

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

Oh, and I take it you are superhuman "FireandBrimstone" and you and the people that go to your church don't ever experience death like other human beings? Everyone eventually dies "FireandBrimstone." You aren't G-d so stop trying to determine where others are going to spend eternity and worry about your own soul. Remember its the eternal things like honesty, love and peace you spread around not your sick hatred for other human beings that you get to keep when you cross over. You certainly are judgmental for another mortal. I have a suggestion. Spread your hate, elsewhere. Buh Bye!

knobandtube · 1 year ago

If you have the stomach for it, the Mormon church will deliver a free Book of Mormon. The book will be delivered by earnest young missionaries who would like to spend an hour telling you why God loves you. He just doesn't want you to be married. Here's the link for the free Book of Mormon and your free visit by the opposition really up close and personal.

http://www.mormon.org/freeBookofMormon/1,10120,...

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

Cool. I'd invite them in and keep the loudest, hardcore gay porn playing on the tv for the entire hour visit. See if that would get a rise out of 'em LOL.

Degio · 1 year ago

You are pure class! Very typical and expected response coming from the casual Californian homosexual. I'm sure mom and dad are real proud of you! Yeah, I really want to vote to give you marriage rights! What's wrong, multiple partner lifestyle is getting boring LOL? Well, at least you have your hardcore gay porn!

You're AWESOME!

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

Actually, I'm more of a live-and-let-live kind of guy. That is until an entity such as the Mormon Cult decides to fight against my Civil Rights. When that happens, I take the fight to them.
Keep the Mormon Cult away from others Civil Rights and I will return to that live-and-let-live attitude that makes me an absolute joy to be around.

Radardan · 1 year ago

Dearest Degio

I aspire to be a casual California homosexual. Since you seem to be quite authoritative on this, can you help me.

I live in Arizona so I may need extra help. After being investigated by the US Government in the 1960s for being Too Gay, I definitley need extra help at being a casual homosexual.

Many thanks, sweetie.

Cantante · 1 year ago

An immature response, to be sure, but I understand the anger and frustration. I am thinking of the several boring old middle-age couples I know - one with kids - who are just like me and my het husband. THEY are not the threat to marriage. If they could be married, they'd be quietly settled down and living life like everyone else. Some would end up divorced, if statistics are to be believed, but it would be for problems that are the REAL threat to marriage - poor communication, poor economy/money troubles, and the like.

The Mormon Church is absolutely entitled to preach against anything it deems sinful, whether it be gay marriage or coffee. There's a line between preaching in church, and working the political process AS AN ORGANIZATION. And when that effort is focused on a neighboring state.... the church crossed a couple of lines there.

Our family plans a vacation later this year that will take us through Utah. We'll stop in SLC long enough to show the kids where I used to live, but we won't stop long enough to spend any money in Utah.

cowboyneok · 1 year ago

Good for you, Cantante, and I agree. Once a church changes its focus from helping the poor and preaching G-d's love to becoming a POLITICAL ACTION COMMITTEE / business then its time to TAX THEM!

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

I wouldn't talk... the Mormon church has a history of supporting "multiple-partner lifestyles."

gwyneth · 1 year ago

Well spoken Hurrycane! The Mormon's had an exodus from the State of Missouri because of their unpopular belief in plural marriage. Their the last people on Earth that should be affecting legislature about marriage! Now we're supposed to give them Utah even though they haven't fought for it and had to denounce plural marriage in order to be recognized as a State! Forget that!

SMP · 1 year ago

Oh, they don't come to my house anymore. I let them talk and then I keep them there to hear my thoughts on religion as I pull out texts with proof in black and white of how wrong they are. I have already had two of them come back to tell me they left their church after our talk. And now they won't send anyone else to my house. It's funny what a little education will do for these people, who are brainwashed into believing lies by their leaders. Still, they choose to believe those lies in the first place. You just have to find the ones who want the truth and are willing to hear it.

Fasterthanlight · 1 year ago

This blog seems to have become a site for the bigoted and ignorant to bash Mormons! Why blame the Mormon church for acting on a moral and religious point (politics do not appear to be their primary motivation, but rather religious conviction)? Why shouldn't a church stand up for and defend a fundamental moral and doctrinal position? Are people and organisations that oppose gay marriage supposed to remain silent in a democrisy, or do nothing, while gays fight for rights that are still felt by many to go to the moral core of the very society in which we live? Whatever your views, lets avoid hypocrisy or blinkered assumptions about whether gays or lesbians have the moral high ground or the only moral viewpoint worthy of any form of protest.
As for the criticisms of the Mormon church, while I am no expert on its history or humanitarian programs, Cowboyneok should perhaps do a little more research before pointing the finger of criticism (whilst trying to avoid the many born again and other bible bashing ministry sites) as my brief research suggests the Mormon church has an exemplary humanitarian and service record. It is also quite ignorant of Ben Dover and others to refer to the Mormon faith as a 'cult'. It hardly fits that category, unless you wish to refer to all splinter churches from the Catholic church as 'cults'.
Clearly, many gays and lesbians will feel very strongly about Prop 8, but why should the moral and political views of one group lead to the vilification and persecution of another group with an equally strong and deeply engrained moral viewpoint? It isn't democratic, moral or even just to target one or any organization this way. If Gays and Lesbians wish to fight for the right to marry (under law), or perhaps just the equal recognition of their legal status, alongside straight marriages (i.e. 'civil partnerships', as with the UK position, for example), it is surely politicians and law makers that need to be persuaded, democratically. Isn't that what the Mormon church sought to do. Boycotting Utah won't change Mormon doctrine or the Mormon church, with its long history of weathering persecution. Neither will boycotting any other State in which you find a church or organisation that is willing to stand up for what it believes.

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

Well, here's the definition of "cult". Sure looks and sounds Mormon to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

...why should the moral and political views of one group lead to the vilification and persecution of another group with an equally strong and deeply engrained moral viewpoint?

My thoughts exacly! Why should the religious beliefs of the Mormon church vilify and persecute gay people, who seem to value marriage as much as they do?

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Constitutional rights should not be taken away from anyone by a mere vote of a majority. If it is OK to do that with Prop 8, there is no reason the same thing cannot happen to other constitutional rights. If you're going to be intellectually consistent, Fasterthanlight, then you have to agree that you would fully support the "will of the voters" if they decided to take away the California Constitution's right to free exercise of religion -- but only for Mormons.

Degio · 1 year ago

The homosexuals of this country are perhaps the most outspoken, obnoxious, rude, and "in your face" categories of people in existence. A very hard people to like in my view. It's true that the minority speaks sooo much louder than the majority. Just look what these low life's do in San Fransisco. They are completely out of control. It's like another country, literally. Who want's and respects that? They have no respect for those who differ from that of their opinion, and protest regularly outside churches in SF. You have seen the footage I'm sure... Bunch of Morally void kooks.

Bottom line: You can't reason with these people. There is a genuine inability for "them" to grasp that the people of the state have spoken, and they lose. End of story! Sure the LDS church spoke out. So what? That's not what decided it. It was ultimately the minority vote that approved this Proposition. Go ahead and go after them you sore losers. You wouldn't dare. Face it, The people of California spoke, and they do not agree with Tom and Phil being a legally married couple. Thankfully!

Stop looking for scapegoats you fools.

Radardan · 1 year ago

Dearest Degio

Ooops! The people of Arizona SPOKE in a prior election and said NO to the anti-Gay marriage issue. That turned out not to be the final word.

Homophobia is a mental problem, Degio. Seek treatment.

lemonyfemme · 1 year ago

Actually, many mental health professionals believe that same-gender-attraction is a mental problem.

caerbannog · 1 year ago

OK trailer trash, name some. And provide references to articles that they have published in professional journals that support your claim.

If you can't, then STFU and go back to your trailer park.

lemonyfemme · 1 year ago

James Dobson (who is not a Mormon), Ph.D. in Child Development from the University of So. California - his book titled, "Bringing Up Boys" chapter entitled, "The Origins of Homosexuality"

RainbowPhoenix · 1 year ago

That is hardly an unbiased and credible source.

Mackerel · 1 year ago

I've bet you read that book many times. And touched yourself during the part where he suggests father show their penises to their sons in the shower. Disgusting.

lemonyfemme · 1 year ago

Let me clarify that. I don't hate people who say they are gay. I feel sorry for them just as I would any mentally ill person. I would never make fun of them or be unkind in any way. I just believe that homosexual behavior is as deviant as pedophilia or incest. And those two latter groups are mentally ill as well.

Mackerel · 1 year ago

Your mind is unhinged with your uncontrollable, sexually deviant urges of the worst and most dangerous kind, as proven by your degenerate obsession with sex with children, incest, and bestiality. One can only imagine what you've done. Seek professional help.

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

Well, it's not a representative sample, but none of my gay friends or neighbors behave as you describe. They're quite pleasant people.

Evangelical Christians, on the other hand... a lot of what you said could certainly describe some of them.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Yes, I agree, all those kooks in San Francisco raising kids, working hard at their jobs, and (shocker) reading books besides the Bible is WAY weirder than speaking in tongues, handling snakes, dressing in Pilgrim costumes and marrying your 13 year old cousin. Someone should look into all that weirdness out there in the country. Those "low lifes" are "completely out of control"!

mollymia2 · 1 year ago

What's next for the mormons to stick their nose into. What business is it of theirs to judge someone else.
What makes them so high and mighty that they feel the need to infringe laws and big money funding upon someones happiness and beliefs. Stay out of Utah, they suck!!

gwyneth · 1 year ago

No! Come to Utah and establish residency and VOTE. Utah is not theirs! They have not won it from the United States of America as much as they like to think they have. We have a democratic party. We have people who want legislative change in this State and we need your support! Ban the Mormon church not Utah!

jeremypack · 1 year ago

Here's the deal, folks...upwards of $37 million was spent on this campaign by so-called Christians. $37 million! How many downtrodden families could have been given shelter for a night? How much food could have been channeled into a food bank? How many impoverished children could have been offered a warm coat or school supplies? This travesty was perpetrated on the people of California under the guise of defending children and families. Beyond the fact that not one child was defended, not one family saved, IT WAS MONEY COMPLETELY WASTED! DOMA in all of its forms is blatantly unconstitutional and the courts will always find it to be thus. No matter what the majority says, as long as it infringes on the constitutional rights of one single individual, it is and will always be found illegal and struck down.

Honestly, if there is a problem with the moral fabric of this country, it certainly isn't MY family contributing to it. I've donated more than $10,000 to children's charities and spent over 500 hours in the service of my community. I have a child who is loved and happy, a committed partner of 12 years who shares my burdens and my joys, and the respect and support of countless friends and neighbors...I truly DO defend children and families. With words and deeds and actions. Can all the "Christians" say the same? What families have they defended? How many children have they actually helped? Are "dangerous", "perverted" homosexuals like me going to go away?

Christians, I invite you to compare your deeds to mine. Go on and tell the world how much better you are than me. Please, share with the rest of us why YOUR family is more valid and how much more you contribute to society and give to your fellow man! Which of us do YOU think God REALLY finds more worthy?

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

You have to remember that many Christians believe that faith, not deeds, is what "saves" people. And they see gay marriage as a threat to the faith they're trying to evangelize. I don't know about Mormons, but this is a common Southern Baptist belief, at least.

I'm not defending this, just explaining it.

obrienr · 1 year ago

"DOMA in all of its forms is blatantly unconstitutional..."

Don't pretend that you know con law, Gomer.

jeremypack · 1 year ago

Okay, so I won't be goaded into namecalling since I'm a bigger person than that--and I don't purport to be an expert on constitutional law. But since you imply that you are, explain how the California Supreme Court was wrong in overturning this legislation given that it was found to be in violation of the state's constitution.

justlaffin · 1 year ago

I will debate you on this. The law has to get past the supremes, which I doubt will even get a writ of certiorari. You have a majority conservative judges.
As for the mormons running Utah, deal with it. I live in Texas and down the street from the George Bush library. My kids couldn't even tell people we supported Obama for fear of retalitation.

freedom222 · 1 year ago

I am mormon, gay and outraged at my church!! this is not the first time the mormon church has pulled this. in alaska, hawaii, idaho and now cailfornia again they have donated and mobilized to stop freedom. in thier previous political, secret anti-gay actions, the church paid no price so when prop 8 came up, they ran to get involved. but, for a church obssesed by pr, getting caught in the sunshine of all of their ugly deeds is very the worst position imaganable. the church has banks of pr people in house and consultants around the world..

we need to make them pay the price (not boycott utah) by starting a world wide campaign that says---SLAM THE DOOR. that is, people pledge to slam the door on mormon missionaries everywhere. that would hurt. and it places the blame where it belongs. an online 'slam the door' petition ( I have no idea how to do that ) that sent sa copy to church headquarters in utah would send a huge message that if mormons want to play politics and take away other people's freedon---they will pay a price.
SLAM THE DOOR!!

foxy · 1 year ago

We plan to dress up like missionaries, setup patio furniture and make out in front of their church.

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

Good to hear from you. You are the type of person the church leadership needs to hear from -- not so much the rest of us.

koochlaru · 1 year ago

I completely agree that the Mormon church is wrong. I live in Utah and I'm not Mormorn. Did you notice the popular vote in Utah. There was over 100,000 votes for Obama. There are actually a lot of Democrats her and the state may be predominantly Mormon, but not by as much as it used to be. There are a lot of us here who don't belong to the Mormon church and never will. I think they are a cult and that's the way alot of us up here feel. I agree that people should boycott the church, but not Utah. If I still lived in California, I would have voted No on Prop 8. Alot of us would have. Boycotting Utah is going to affect all of us that have nothing to do with the church. I agree with Freedom 222, start a world wide campaign against the Mormon church, not Utah.

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

I don't live anywhere near Utah (and honestly have no desire to), but I agree with you -- trying to punish the whole state for Prop 8's passage is pointless, counterproductive, and unfair.

gwyneth · 1 year ago

I also live in Utah and am not gay or mormon. I have a problem with the Mormon church because they have a history of legislating their religion on everyone as if we were under marshall law or something. Boycott the LDS church and help us democrats gain ground in Utah! We're making headway, don't hurt us. :(

RooPhillip · 1 year ago

Your rage at Mormons is misdirected. I'm a Californian who voted against Prop 8. It was defeated by Catholic Hispanic voters.

wibs · 1 year ago

The Hispanic vote was affected by all the money spent on hate-mongerging Spanish language commercials which were funded by Mormons.

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

But the prejudice was there to begin with, I'm sure. Like it or not, Hispanic culture is still pretty, well, "macho" on the whole.

lemonyfemme · 1 year ago

So you think that Hispanics are so ignorant that they would be so easily swayed by "that evil Mormon cult"? What a racist viewpoint! I would be more inclined to think that it was their Catholic upbringing that influenced them in light and truth on the subject of appropriate marriage. Most Catholics I know do not agree with the Mormon religion, but I think the Catholic Church and the Mormon Church agree on the definition of marriage.

caerbannog · 1 year ago

Yep -- just like caucasians are stupid enough to be swayed by the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, "Rev" Moon, etc.

Being Hispanic does not inoculate one from stupidity.

gwyneth · 1 year ago

Okay but are you agreeing with their definitions of marriage before or after their belief in polygamy?

ctrkarmom · 1 year ago

MOST CHRISTIAN CHURCHES, like the Mormons, campaigned for a YES on 8 vote! Sadly, the Mormon's are the ones being persecuted. This has been this way since since Mormonism began. None should be persecuted! Our Constitution states: "Freedom of Religion." Mormons have always been persecuted. Mormons use the same bible and know that Adam and Eve are the first earthly parents....not ADAM & ADAM or EVE & EVE. Protesting in front of their temples and meeting places should be a crime. It's a shame that gays won't accept that marraige IS between a man & a woman...this is how children come into this world. That's what our bodies are designed for...

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

Denying a group of American citizens access to equal justice under law should be the crime. And I would support the prosecution of the Mormon Cult fully and completely.

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

The story of Adam and Eve is an origin myth, not a true story. Genetic research proves that.

Homosexuality has always been part of the human experience, though not always condoned. It is also attested among animals, from insects to hominoids. Zoologists are beginning to understand the role that non-procreative sex plays is bonding, group dynamics, etc.

And as far as freedom of religion goes, your rights end where mine begin. You can't so much as paint the stop sign at the end of my street blue, even if your god were to "tell" you to.

lemonyfemme · 1 year ago

Yes, homosexuality has always been part of the human experience - just as murder has been, since Cain and Abel. Animals also exhibit behaviors of incest and pedophilia. Are we to condone those behaviors in humans as well? That's what separates humans from animals - we have the ability to choose our behaviors and not just give in to our animal instincts.

SMP · 1 year ago

You exhibit your ignorance by comparing homosexuality to child rape. What a malicious and vulgar statement and mindset. As someone who works with child sex abuse victims and ending the push by pedophiles to make it legal, let me inform you that most child abuse - even same sex child abuse - is perpetrated by STRAIGHT abusers. How dare you compare the sexual conduct between two consenting adults to the forced sexual contact of a child by an adult? Repulsive. Get help. Fast.

gwyneth · 1 year ago

The difference is that murdering someone takes away their civil rights! Marrying someone does not take away your civil rights. Do you get it?

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Wow, what to say to that kind of stupid? Well, let's just clarify that gay people do not condone murder or incest or pedophilia (although lemony herself might be a little conflicted on that point)

SMP · 1 year ago

Our sex organs were designed for pro-creation. Not marriage. As someone else stated, Adam and Eve is merely an origin myth. To quote it as some law the human race is to live by is the same as believing the reason we have a Spring and Winter is because the daughter of a Goddess is forced to live in the Underworld for half of the year.

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

What the Mormon Cult did is about as anti-American as you could get.

The Mormon Cult has fully supported the identification of a group of people and worked diligently to deny that group Civil Rights and equal justice under the law.

Fighting them economically, in these difficult financial times, might see them change their evil and divisive ways. Didn't they toss one of their core beliefs, multiple marriages, in order to join the Union as a State?

gwyneth · 1 year ago

The image thing will hurt them the most because they get their money by telling their congregation that their the only faith that will be allowed in the "celestial" kingdom (their version of heaven) if they all pay 10% of their income to the church. These people have a lot of money and its not just Utah that they've got a paying congregation. Hit their image so that more people won't join and give them their 10 percent.

Yep, forget it Mother Teresa, your not in heaven because you didn't pay your 10 percent to the Mormons in order to organize political agendas to take away minority groups civil rights! I think all minority groups should watch very closely at this! If your Catholoic how does that strike you that they believe that? Just wondering.

Hurrycane · 1 year ago

Congratulations, John. Judging by the number of trolls on this thread, AMERICAblog's indictment of the Mormon church is really having an impact. The homophobes wouldn't feel the need to come here and trumpet their bigotry otherwise.

That being said... I think some of the strategies I'm reading in your posts and the comments could really backfire. Speaking of fire, I'm sure I'm going to be flamed, but...

I think we should leave Utah as a state alone. Not just Mormons live there, even though the church does assert undue influence on its secular politics. Punishing Utah-ans who never opposed gay marriage could very well sour their sympathy.

And though the church put up most of the money to pass Prop 8, it was the voters of California that their propaganda influenced. Why? And how can we change that?

Not to say we should we boycott California, either, which is kind of like boycotting China, only more difficult.

One last thing... and, of course, I say this as a heterosexual secure in my marriage... I would hate to see the issue of gay marriage wedged into the forefront of Obama's presidency. He has a formidible task ahead of him to try to unify the country and tackle problems like the economy and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Forcing gay marriage to the forefront would, I believe, jeopardize all that. Since Obama is, at best, a lukewarm sympathizer anyway, maybe this is not an issue, but... I guess I'm just thinking back to "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

That is all. Thanks.

schrjohn · 1 year ago

Hurrycane, Utah is Mormonism. That part of the population that is not LDS needs to pressure the rest of the state to get out of a boycott. That is part of the power of a boycott. The poison that is the LDS faith unctuously permeates all surrounding states (Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona). All of these states need to get the message that discrimination has economic consequences. I would also recommend boycotting any sports event with a BYU team. In the 70's teams threatened to not even play BYU. If pressure can be put on all schools in the conference to not play BYU, have highly visible and vocal demonstrations, etc., it will have an effect. The LDS church is VERY sensitive about itsimage, and demonstrations that follow them everywhere will have an effect. Also, twice a year they have an all-church conference in SLC and a huge influx of gay protesters would be wonderful. A million queer march on Temple Square would have an immeasurable effect on this backwater pseudo-religion. Mormon Pres. Packer could have a real revelation shortly thereafter.

justlaffin · 1 year ago

Something tells me you wouldn;t get a permit to protest outside of a facility and interupt someon else's wedding.
The church really could care less about its image, which is why they felt able to donate monies to fight gay marriage.You really want to make a change?
Approach friends and neighbors who are mormon asking them to at least have an open mind about your position.I am on neither side because I believe that marriage itself is a religious institution and that you shouldn't support the government through marriage licenses. I think civil unions will cut through the red tape for everyone and then you would not have to justify things for the IRS, insurance etc.
I think if you become militant with the church, they will fight you with resources that are probably greater than that of the catholic church.

sara · 1 year ago

funny, you don't even know who the president of the mormon church is. Its NOT Packer - nice one. say what you know or shut up.

spackle · 1 year ago

Wow. John Aravosis--you are a hypocrit. I've never seen such a blatent disregard of intellectual honesty. You live in and apply a double standard to all others except those who share your orientation. The Mormons supporting Prop 8 did so out of a desire to make their beliefs heard through the democratic process. Unlike many so-called "christian" faiths, Mormons are taught to treat all people--even homosexuals--with respect and common decency. To vote yes on Prop 8 is not counter to this end. They will still treat you kindly. It doesn't mean--like you would like it to mean--that they must support your attempts to re-define "marriage". Unfortunately, many, many so-called christians are filled with hate towards homosexuals. Again, Mormons are not. They simply vote and support causes they believe in. You say Utah is a state of hate simply because it is populated predominantly by those professing to be Mormon. Well, you are the one filled with "hate" for those who (1) are different than you, (2) get out a vote their beliefs, and (3) simply number enough to pass the proposition which you disagreed with. For that--they are filled with hate?! Really? They didn't eliminate your ability to enter into a "civil" union, which gives you the same rights and privileges. Simply, historically "marriage" has been defined as between those of different genders. I have a brother who is gay. He has had a partner for many, many years. They live in love and happiness without the "need" to be permitted to "marry" to evidence thier committment to each other. Most importantly, he is an honorable, integris man. He does not need to engage in--as you and so many others do--the decietful distortion of the basis of the Morman vote and support of Prop 8. Again, Mormon's simply took a stand and voted their belief on the historical definition and concept of "marriage". You didn't get your way and now you are filled with the very hate you state Mormons are filled with.

Ben Dover · 1 year ago

Too bad the "respect and common decency" doesn't extend to equal rights.

gwyneth · 1 year ago

The issue is that even if everyone voted to not allow gays their constitutional rights, that it may not be right to vote away anyone's civil rights to begin with. If that were the case then we'd have every religious fanatic in America trying to legislate away our civil rights!

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Constitutional rights should not be taken away from anyone by a mere vote of a majority. If it is OK to do that with Prop 8, there is no reason the same thing cannot happen to other constitutional rights. If you're going to be intellectually consistent, spackle, then you have to agree that you would fully support the "will of the voters" if they decided to take away the California Constitution's right to free exercise of religion -- but only for Mormons.

kino · 1 year ago

OK, enough is enough. You refer frequently to the “straight facts”. Well apply it to yourself. FACT: Marriage is way anterior that any of the religions that now use it as a weapon against others. They took this word for themselves but the true is that they did stole it from pagan believes anterior to them. Marriage is NOT an intellectual registered property of any religion. It belongs to all of as including me. FACT: inflict unnecessary pain to others is an act of hate, so Mormons hate Gays or looks like it. FACT: You probably don’t know that in the 15th century catholic priest was free to marry and even gay marriage was accepted. But only by “Concilio de Trento” year 1545 the celibate was confirmed as a way to keep the possessions of the church secure from the families. FACT: If Mormons are so good and loving to others and help the needed, why they do not help the one in need of legal recognition and protection? The right of marriage is for me as important as food or drink. It scares me when people with the moral capacity of Palin use the word “freedom”. Do you know that Hitler used that word very frequently in his speech to defend the right of the Germans to protect their culture and patrimony? Probably not.

ctrkarmom · 1 year ago

Mormon Polygamy only was ordered by their Prophet for a short time and because so many of the Mormons were unfairly persecuted and murdered. That was the ONLY way for their population to come back. This has only happened to the Mormons. They are not a cult and calling them that is a weak excuse for bringing about another false rumor. Most Mormons (there's exceptions in every religion) are wonderful people, just as most in other Religions. Cults are Cults....surely there's Catholics, Protestants, Baptists, Mormons, etc...in cults all over the world. But, to single the Mormon's out is downright wrong. God knows the truth. I believe the Mormons have been treated unfairly since day 1 and have not had equal rights as with other Religions. Check out the Catholic Priests and how they molest children and don't get just punishment. One might consider protesting THAT rather than what the people define marriage as.

SMP · 1 year ago

The mormons define a union between a 10 year old girl and a 45 year old man to be "God's law". How about the CULT that moved from Utah to Texas, since you bring up the catholic priests. There are bad apples in every group. Only the mormons and islam teach that pedophilia and child rape is A-okay. Try to learn some history. As you say, God knows the truth.

gar1314 · 1 year ago

Holy cow! you have some bad info. "Mormons" as you call them or members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints don't believe in union between a minor and an adult at all. As a matter of fact LDS kids don't even date until they are 16 years old and thats only with a group of people. Most don't go on a solo date with just their date until they are 18 or older and most don't marry until after they return from their mission which puts them at 21 or older. If you are talking about the FLDS church in Texas then maybe you can complain but that is NOT the "Mormon" church. You really need to get your facts straight. Maybe you need to learn some history and yes, God does know the truth!

gwyneth · 1 year ago

The problem is that even though the Mormons (Not FLDS but LDS) renounced plural marriage on a condition of Utah becoming a statehood that they have now funded a political movement with the intent and purpose of removing the rights of other American citizens who are a minority group. A lot of people are deeply offended by you Mormons! Thats the problem.

SMP · 1 year ago

You know? I'm not even going to debate you. You've just proven the total lack of education you and your ilk have and made a bigger a$$ out of yourself than anything I or anyone could say.

"If you are talking about the FLDS church in Texas then maybe you can complain but that is NOT the 'Mormon' church. You really need to get your facts straight." .... LMAO! Priceless!!!

FunMe · 1 year ago

EMAIL I RECEIVED YESTERDAY;:

media outlets have estimated that tomorrow's crowd will be at 20,000. this is los angeles, darn it! i think could do better than that. please circulate and tell all of your friends, family, frenemies, etc. it's saturday...from 6-9. late enough to sleep off your hangover. and early enough before you hit up the clubs/bars again. ah, strategy.

it doesn't take much to let our voice be heard. in fact, it's pretty damn fun. you walk with your friends, wave and give high 5's to the cars, wave to the businesses that take a moment to give you a thumbs up. it's a perfect example of strength in numbers. and you're doing something damn good for your fellow community. oh, and all that walking = cardio!

Time and Place Date: Saturday, November 8, 2008
Time: 6:00pm - 9:00pm
Location: Sunset Junction
Street: Corner of Sunset Blvd and Santa Monica Blvd

if you couldn't attend the first 2 rallies, this one is perfect since it lands on saturday.

the more people, the more light we bring to our cause. because if we don't stand up for ourselves, who will? the more people, the more press. the more press, the more exposure. the more exposure, the more influence around the country for others to stand up and do the same. the more people and exposure will prove that this will not go away and we deserve everything that everyone else has.

it doesn't matter if you're gay, straight, confused, light skin, dark skin, my asian persuasion, man, woman, inbetween, post op., tranny, you get the picture.

oh, and let's keep it peaceful


change is now...

wishniwasfishn · 1 year ago

God Bless the people who stand up for their morals.

An_American_Karol · 1 year ago

You cannot legislate away Civil Rights guaranteed in our Constitution.

justlaffin · 1 year ago

Where have you been for the last 8 years? George Bush has negated the fourth, fifth, and the eight amendments with the blessing of congress.

SMP · 1 year ago

And for those who do not allow others to dictate what their morals should be. No one has the right - civil or MORALLY - to force others to have the same ideals. My faith says that forcing children to marry and breed is wrong. The Mormons think this is okay. I think we're much better off without the morals of a religion like that. Thank you.

obrienr · 1 year ago

"Mormon Polygamy only was ordered by their Prophet for a short time and because so many of the Mormons were unfairly persecuted and murdered. That was the ONLY way for their population to come back."

That is a load of horse manure.

skwcw2001 · 1 year ago

the mormons murdered their way to where they are and conned people to get power

gwyneth · 1 year ago

Sure is! In fact, they were forced to renounce polygamy in order to become a Statehood. See how badly this Mormon church has their congregation snowed. I wish there was a way to promote more free thinking in these congregations.

ctrkarmom · 1 year ago

And yet, there starts or feeds the false rumor. God Bless ALL!

lemonyfemme · 1 year ago

Ahh - he next thing the radical left fringe will be fighting for is the right to marry 8-year-olds, the right to marry close relatives, the right to marry the neighbor's cat - I can't wait! What a wonderful utopia!

SMP · 1 year ago

lemonyfemme: Dear, you seem to be stuck on the same irrational tirade in every comment you make. You seem obsessed with incest and child and animal rape. Is there something you wish to confess?

Considering homosexuality has absolutely nothing to do with sexual abuse or inbreeding (you must be from the backwoods or swamp), one can only guess that you either are too dimwitted to fully differentiate the distinctions, or you are speaking from your own guilty conscience of mentally disturbed desires.

RainbowPhoenix · 1 year ago

Or he's just parroting the usual crap from the religious reich.

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

lemony, are you kidding me with this BS? please, please tell me how loving gay couples in any way resemble the scenarios you describe?

skwcw2001 · 1 year ago

anytime you want to see shock on a mormons mention the mountain meadow massacre

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Sorry, was trying to respond to another poster.

CrackerDog · 1 year ago

John - I'm with you 100% on going after the Mormons on this. But I recommend you use methods that discriminate, use a scalpel, not a hatchet. Be careful not to harm the progressive movement in Utah. This march proves that movement exists. Perhaps you can work with the Sundance folks, get their input, and attack this in a manner that works for everybody with a soul.

Peace.

SDAmerican · 1 year ago

Your closing point is remarkable in its hypocrisy -- "At some point the Mormon Church needs to learn that they're not the only people with the right to free speech. They have the right to bankroll bigotry and we have the right to publicly call them on it." Can anyone disagree with you and not be called names or vilified? 7 out of 10 black voters in California voted for Prop 8 -- are you now going to call the black community in California "bigots" and "intolerant" and say they don't understand civil rights? What a cowardly thing to do -- single out one church out of many groups who supported Prop 8 and call for protests against the church.

Do companies have the right to bankroll gay marriage and not be called on it? Do individuals, regardless of faith or belief, have the right to contribute their own money to fight for traditional marriage? Your reaction is to call names and call for a boycott of an entire state. Wow. Who's intolerant here? Who's showing the hate? People of many faiths came together and expressed their free speech rights, and your reaction is that anyone who disagrees with your view is a bigot?? So much for "tolerance" and "free speech".

People in a free society grant rights to people in that society. It is significant to note that the voice of the people have *NEVER* granted a "right" of homosexual marriage in any state, only liberal activist judges who pushed their own views. The people of California had enough of that and told their judges to stop legislating from the bench, especially when they had already made the point clear. Marriage is not about who you love or with whom you have an orgasm -- it is about society sanctioning a contract that provides stability for children, who deserve to have both a mother and a father. Homosexual households deny children one or the other, and the research clearly shows they are less stable and more promiscuous than a household with both a mother and a father.

This is not about civil rights, it is about free speech and the freedom of religion. The Constitution keeps government from forcing religion on people and gives people the freedom to exercise their religion, it doesn't say people with religious beliefs don't have the right to speak their mind and contribute to a cause they support.

gwyneth · 1 year ago

That's true that the Mormons and every other faith have every right to vote. It's true that Mormons aren't solely responsible for Proposition 8. The same is true that the matter will be taken to Supreme Court and we will find out if its unconstitutional and if they find it is, your SOL. Because, voters don't get to vote away certain civil rights of minority groups because they have a more numerous vote. No matter how much money is pumped into propaganda by all RELIGIONS. Here us loud and clear, citizens of this country's rights are NOT negotiable for a vote. People fought for it and YOU are up in the night if you don't think people still won't fight for it! And, you are on for a fight. And, I think there's a good chance the Supreme Court will rule it as unconstitutional. People have every right to be inflamed at the Mormn Church for its role in funding this less than American cause!!

tangjohn · 1 year ago

tomorrow...

rightorwrong · 1 year ago

unbelievable....you claim to be so against the mormons becuase of all the funds that were used to support the cause of prop 8...well HOW MANY HOLLYWOOD CELEB"S INCLUDING STEVEN SPEILBERG DONATED MONEY TOWARDS YOUR CAUSE.....sounds like you can't except the fact that it was passed and now you feel you have this right to whine and cry about the Mormons and the money that was spent......why the hell don't you protest the black and latino churches for the voters that voted yes....reason being you would get your pansy asses kicked....

ChrisSF · 1 year ago

Wow, pansy here who does not plan on having his ass kicked. I think one big difference might be that the Hollywood celebs are actually California, not Utah, voters and taxpayers. No whining, just pledging to continue the fight against bigots.

kino · 1 year ago

My dear rightorwrong, you made it so easy that is not eve fun. Mr. Spielberg is a citizen who pays taxes and does not speak for any religious group. Also, please use a spelling tool to help you with your writing. We will all appreciate that. Also, the aggressive and homophobic tone of your email does not make any favor to your arguments. You are full of hate. What happened to you when you was a kid to be so angry?

kino · 1 year ago

SDAamerica: Let’s see, where should I start? I am overwhelms by lies and fake information. 1- to say that if gay marriage is approved the next will be the right to marry children is simply dummy, only people with no brain will belive that. Gay men love gay MEN, I mean a grown up men. Funny enough pedophiles are usually straight men that do not care boys or girls as long as they are children. Please read real, accurate scientific information http://www.yellodyno.com/pdf/RSK_Intro.pdf page xvii if you don’t want to read all. 2- Mother and Father issue, how many single mothers are in this world? And most of their kids are perfectly fine or better that with an abusive father. 3- You say: “Homosexual households deny children one or the other, and the research clearly shows they are less stable and more promiscuous than a household with both a mother and a father” Please, let me know the scientific publication where you read that, I bet you make it up. Just as an example: My husband and me together spoke 6 languages, play three instruments, for not to mention other abilities like cooking or playing sports. He is a Phd economist and I am an architect and a pro opera singer. Are you going to tell me that we are not qualified to educate? I would like to know if your teaching would go any farther that use weapons and hate other that are different, and of course read the bible. My kids will be very polite, smart and yes, very tolerant and respectful (even with those who hate them). 4- to say that we are not tolerant because we don’t let you hurt us taking our rights does not deserve one second of my time, but I will make an exception: If after leaving with my dear one for 20 years I get sick he will not be able to visit me in the hospital because “he is not a relative”, not to talk about making any medical decision. If I died he will not be able to get my possessions or the house we build together or decide what to do with my body. This sounds like wrong to me, may be because I am so gay. 6- Gay marriage will not affect your life at all, no matter how much you pretend it will. You will have the same rights, you will decide where you live, who you marry, what school you take your kids, what you eat or not, what car you buy. You will even have the right to never have to talk to a gay in your life as surely you did in your past (or that you believe). Otherwise you would think differently. Everyone of my friends (straight or not) know that they can count on me, that I can be trusted, they know of my sincerity and my willingness to help, they let me take care of their kids and they know they are in good hands. They know of my big capacity for love and care for others. 7- you say: The Constitution keeps government from forcing religion. HAHAHA, by changing the constitution with prop 8 you just forced people to live by the low of god, Christian or atheist. That is bigotry: Impose other against their will. I bet you would be very happy leaving in Afghanistan with the Taliban. You know? They kill teens for been gay. How fun and correct is to use the rule of god. I only can wish you to have many gay descendents… actually I take it back, I wish you the opposite since we are statistically better providers to our elder ones that average straights. 8- Why you take on the Mormons? In that I am with you, I am even more upset about blacks and other groups that have been prosecuted for been different. They should know better. But so Mormons since also was a discriminated group by many others not long ago. To end: I know that I will never be able to open your mind because your vision is obstructed by 1494 pages but at least others who read this blog will don’t have to swallow your lies for don’t have the other version. Have a good day.

AesaWaya · 1 year ago

Religous intolerance once again raises its ugly head in a new witch hunt. We expound on how we hate the intolerance of the far right in the Islamic world and turn right around and issue our own brands of hate to other's who share a differant set of ideals or values. But then America (White European America that is) was not founded on Religous freedom, it was in fact founded on religous intolerance. The Puritan's where thrown out of England because they were so intolerant of others.

Fortunately the Founding Fathers were children of the age of enlightenment and understood the dangers of creating State sponsored religion and constitutionaly seperated church and state. This is the two edged sword that will in time put this issue to rest. It does not matter if a State passes constitutional changes that ban Gay marriage. Such laws are in Direct violation the US constitution and are unenforcable in the long run. The US constitution is written in very plain English that even a 3rd grader can understand. "Equal Protection under the law" which means every citizen enjoys the same rights, same treatment under the Law. This is not an Animal Farm Nation where everyone is equal, but some are a little more equal than others.

The Morman Church and any other Church that openly contributed the ban on Gay marriages should have their tax exempt status revoked, for in doing so they have violated the US Constitution. Individual church members have the right to engage in politics and express their personal believes, however the churches themselfs as a religous organization are banned Constitutionaly from such activities.

Now let me be very frank on this subject. First of all I am not a Christian I follow the path of my Native American ancestors a Spiritual Path as old as time itself. Secondly I have personal reasons to be very Homophobic, but fortunately my Creator endowed me with a brain that functions and reasons. I learned to read as a child and learned to understand what I read, ie The US Constitution. It would seem that those on the far right need to sit down and read it, and if possible try to understand it. It is after all a very enlightening document.

I look at each person as an individual and weigh the Medicine in their heart. I do not pass judgment on them for the color of their skin, their religion, their sexual orientation. Its time we as a Nation put these Salem Witchhunts to rest and stopped all the finger pointing. For those who feel they need to start pointing fingers at others differances, I suggest they start in front of a mirror and keep their religous believes to themselfs and stop trying to shove them down other peoples throats.

There are greater issues at foot that need to be resolved in this Nation, we live in interesting times, if we are to survive as a great people then we need to work together. Discrimination and Bigotry can not be tolerated at any level of our society for any reason. Its just plain wrong, and unlawful no matter how it is sugar coated, or wrapped in religous dogma.

"Equal protection under the law" a very simple statement to understand.

tjenkin · 1 year ago

California Constitution:

Article 1 Sec.7

b) A citizen or class of citizens may not be granted privileges
or immunities not granted on the same terms to all citizens.
Privileges or immunities granted by the Legislature may be altered or
revoked.

If so called straights are given the privilege to marry and be recongnized by the California Government, it would seem that the State is in conflict over it's own Constitution.

schrjohn · 1 year ago

I would recommend boycotting any sports event with a BYU team. In the 70's teams threatened to not even play BYU. If pressure can be put on all schools in the conference to not play BYU, have highly visible and vocal demonstrations, etc., it will have an effect. The LDS church is VERY sensitive about itsimage, and demonstrations that follow them everywhere will have an effect. Also, twice a year they have an all-church conference in SLC and a huge influx of gay protesters would be wonderful. A million queer march on Temple Square would have an immeasurable effect on this backwater pseudo-religion. Mormon Pres. Packer could have a real revelation shortly thereafter.

gwyneth · 1 year ago

Careful because we're making headway at BYU in the democratic party (not libertarian, but I'll take whatever I can get!) The Mormons have been on the local news all astounded at BYU students forming a democratic party! And, their being vocal too! So, we don't want to discourage these populations from coming around to our point of view. Flipping their congregation is going to be one of the best weapons we use against the Mormons. Obama barely lost Salt Lake County and won two other counties in Utah. The young people are coming around to a more diverse congregation and that will lead to more diverse views in the Mormon church. I hope that they think to chastise their religions role in all this!! But, I'm not sure their thinking in terms of civil rights over there yet. March on the temples, and yes a general conference protest would send a message! Everyone should rent cars here or drive so as to take up all their conference parking too!

AesaWaya · 1 year ago

I would recommend a Federal Lawsuit along with everything else. It is very obvious the Church has violated Federal Consltitutional Law.

Bamboozler · 1 year ago

I'm not a BYU fan or a Morman fan and an even less fan of the gay and lesbian lifestyle. I love my gay friends and I have gay family memebers. That said get into reality folks, your protests and your crying about not getting a favorable vote in prop 8 is doing more harm than good to your cause. We have talked about this issue over the last week and more and more Americans are being turned against your cause because of the way you act and by the way you try to break down the family value system that keeps our American society going. Be free and go live your life the way you choose but do not try to force your beliefs on the families that are the back bone of America.....know this, it will back fire on you and you could see a set back in your cause that will last for decades.

abrivio · 1 year ago

Navarro:
Nobody here agrees.
They are even MORE against gay marriages and homosexuals in general. I have never seen such happy families, less divorces, etc. It's a breath of fresh air to be living here and not be bombarded with all these propositions that don't belong in our society in the first place!

AesaWaya · 1 year ago

Today let us honor all the young men and women of all generations who defend this nation. It does not matter if we agree with the conflict or not. They are our warriors, our shield against our enemys who serve with honor and bravery. I have seen the face of war and I hate it, but I am realistic in knowing that there are times that we must fight, times that we must give our lifes for our country right or wrong. I salute all those have answered to the call of duty, they are my brothers and sisters in arms. For I know that in combat we do not fight for our government, our officers, our ideolgy. We fight for the brothewrs and sisters on our left and the brothers and sisters on our right. For these are our brothers and sisters at arms, soldiers and warriors each who know the true cost of freedom.!!!

jmichael39 · 1 year ago

By your account then the only reason Obama is president is because he (along the George Soros' of the world) bankrolled him into the white house by deceiving the public into buying his crock of.....butter.

AesaWaya · 1 year ago

Mr Obama is the President elect because the American People have spoken. I voted for him and provided him with a pittance of $25 to help get him elected. Why? Because he is the best man for the Job. I could care less if he is Black, Green, Red or Purple, as long he has the ability to lead this Nation.

When I was in combat, I found out real fast that it does not matter what color we are, our religion, our ideoligy, when your shot we all bleed the same color and we all die just as dead. So for all of you fringe lunatics out there, I would suggest you get a grip and start acting like members of a Democratic Society. The only alternative to a Nation of Law is Savagery, only because we are Nation of Laws can most of you exist or survive. For all of you that ran out and bought ammo and guns to protect yourself from Government excess. Get a grip! Apparently you have never been in combat. Become an itch and the Goverment will scratch you with a squad with overwhelming fire power, Become a real bad itch and they will scatch it with a Abrams Tank. Or a nicely delivered cluster bomb. So why don't we all sit down and start thinking of America First, and understanding that we are Nation of many peoples, many faiths, many Paths, and that if we "Don't hang together we will certainly hang seperately." I will speak no further on this. It is Good