AMERICAblog: UK continues to roll out spying on citizens programs
HelenaMontana
· 10 months ago
I was just thinking the other day about the police state that Great Britain has become and reflecting that although it had always been a place that I wanted to visit because that's where my roots are, I won't go there now. The land of the Magna Carta has become the land of Big Brother--even outdoing the Bushies.
ABProsper
· 10 months ago
The Anglosphere is desperately sick with an infection of the totalitarian disease right now. Its depressing to think of but its like the other side won the war of ideas.
JMO if people in these countries don't tell their government to buzz of very soon they will not be able to.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
It's the times we live in. In some ways I don't blame them because if they find something dangerous they will protect us as a whole. My motto is, don't do anything illegal to start with. That's simple enough. I think they have to have a "lead" to start with because they don't have enough people to just spy on everyone. Blame the terrorists. And let's hope we blow them to hell so we can have our freedoms back. As you ALL know, the internet has become in some ways irrational because of the nuts around who feel protected behind the screens. I'm sure you have encountered them, the ones you wish would be caught? YEP...
Older_Wiser
· 10 months ago
While I agree with you about "the times we live in" on some level, I don't think wholesale spying is the way to deal with any of it. Besides, they're talking about pedophiles and "cyber-criminals." Hacking and key logging have to be precise in the first place, but just let me type in certain words or phrases innocently and the cops could be all over my computer.
We had a discussion last week, I believe, about wholesale surveillance of the internet in this country on pretty much the same subject.
And no, I've never encountered those you mentioned probably because I don't visit porn sites. and have good security for spam, phishing, etc.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
No, not wholesale spying. I don't think they have time for that. BTW, if you are suggesting porn sites "i've" visited and that is what I meant you are out of line.
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 10 months ago
They won't be interested in porn sites I visit. They will be far more interested in THIS site. This past election has shown that th power of the internet, although still very young in some ways, will eventually mean revolution. Suddenly average people are affecting the way news is delivered and digested. However, having said that, it will be through porn, especially child porn, that the government will get the sheeple to go along with controlling the internet (if that is even really possible). "Save our children" will be their mantra and eventually all this will go away. Not soon but eventually. The hope I have is that the geek kids will find ways around the government controls and we'll go back to newsgroups, etc like we had at the beginning and it will be too overwhelming for the government to control it all. The underground will find a way to survive. Whoops my tinfoil hat just fell off.
Good, I'm glad I'm on their side then... LOL How's Dallas? I lived there 32 years. Oregon is a good place to be though too.
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 10 months ago
Oh Dallas is about the same. Lots of new money uppity white trash who are freaking out because the econ is heading south and they don't know what to do, since they're living on credit card debt anyway. And of course Dubbya and Laura are arriving shortly not far from where I live...oh boy!
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
Not surprised. I know the neighborhood W is moving to. It's very conservative. Highland Park etc....
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 10 months ago
I always think of that song "tits and ass" when I drive thru highland park
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
Yeah, who could forget Jerry Jones getting arrested in that area. Good tip for you if you don't know. Kel's on Forest Lane. Good food.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
All you can eat chicken/catfish. 3 sides, after 5 pm. Good southern food.
Older_Wiser
· 10 months ago
I was replying generally; perhaps more precision is required to explain what you mean.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
I meant, the hard core types. The obvious ones. And no, I don't think if you type in something innocently cops will raid your computer. Those are scary thoughts indeed but rational thought would prevent them from that. Besides, you would have nothing to hide. They HAVE to have a proven truth in the matter.
dula
· 10 months ago
He who would give up liberty for security deserves neither.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
NOT this time. Security or else you lose and they win. This is a 21st century battle not the 1700's.
dula
· 10 months ago
We didn't need to spy on ordinary citizens in the 1700s (Revolutionary War) and we don't need to spy on them now.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
Then I would LOVE to hear your ideas of protecting the citizens of the US.
dula
· 10 months ago
If the government wasn't doing anything wrong they would just get warrants...you know...follow the law. Terrorism is a law enforcement issue. The Constitution isn't a quaint document.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
This is why we have courts. I'm confident this will take place if abused in a court of law.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
I just thought of something... YES, in 1700 people WERE spied upon. If you think they didn't have spies in 1700 you need to catch up on history.
dula
· 10 months ago
My point was that we have encountered bigger threats than terrorism which we never had to give up our liberties for...Civil War, WWII, Cuban Missile Crisis. I guess "The Greatest Generation" wasn't as afraid.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
Welcome to "their" game...not mine. We have to play it their way now.
Older_Wiser
· 10 months ago
Taking a page from warrantless wiretaps in the US, no doubt, and just applying to cyberspace?
And how will this affect email in and out of the US? Be afraid, be very afraid...
Indigo
· 10 months ago
I don't believe that kind of surveillance is effective protection. It's perfectly true that the social paradigm has shifted and we're aware of increasing violence, personal danger, and the extent of malicious trespass against others. Monitoring the citizenry at all levels and at all times implies very clearly that the citizenry is at fault. "Off with their heads," said the Queen of Hearts. These are satirical times but, alas, we have no satirist.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
That's why I don't see it as a threat. First of all, if innocent people get dragged in Nazi style, that won't last long. The public would rebel...Even the Christians...they are good at that.
Indigo
· 10 months ago
Your faith in the public is deeply touching but then, you live in liberal Oregon. I'm not so optimistic.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
I lived in Texas... Need I say more? I have seen both sides of the coin. Yes, being here is better and I know the other side of things.
TomJoad
· 10 months ago
As always, these kinds of debates seem blind to the simple fact that when no one is watching the watchers, abuses ALWAYS take place at some point in time.
In the physical world, "evidence" has been planted, a little baggie placed somewhere and then discovered, so tell me, how could a non-secured item like a PC (which has been hacked by the state, at the very least) be then "evidence" against the computers owner?
The other problems with the (to me...moronic) "hey, if you aren't doing anything illegal why would you care?", it misses things like, legal but embarrasing (so suddenly they say, "then don't do anything embarrasing"), which depending can lead to blackmail by a government...of politicians or anyone.
Also, because they have in the past misused also the information. You want some sleazeballs snickering about a private email to your wife?
dula
· 10 months ago
Exactly! During the FISA debate, the government was listening to private, let's say "amorous" conversatioins between troops in Iraq and their spouses at home. The moment you start even thinking that the government is listening to you, even if you are doing nothing "wrong", you stop being free.
dula
· 10 months ago
Since spying on your computer can be done remotely, it's possible that the US could have the UK legally spy on US citizens and thereby avoid any legal issues here...sort of a cyber rendition. Just to be clear for some, the issue is not that anybody is concerned that Terrorists will be spied upon. The issue is that our Government can use this technology to spy on political opponents or activists.
Older_Wiser
· 10 months ago
OT, but I heard on NPR this am that Egyptian doctors are attempting to get aid and medical care to Gazans. They are required to have a permit, and when they get to the border, they have to take supplies from their truck and onto a Palestinian truck. Many NGOs are being held back at different sites along the Gaza border.
Meanwhile, a NYT writer believes that Israel's attack at this point of Bush's leaving might open an opportunity for Obama who has shown support for Israel. However, he also said that by repeating the phrase that there is only one president at this time that Obama is using it to give himself time to think through and give a more considered answer. Be that as it may, by doing nothing, the US is permitting the genocide to continue.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
Genocide? You say? What do you think Hamas has been doing?
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
I have a solution. Don't use your computer. I am not scared nor will be of this idea of spies. I will continue to use my computer knowing that what I do is NOT illegal. NOR was what those service people did that was listened to either. That will be worked out since they didn't like it. I doubt anyone using a computer will be put in jail for being human... That is the right we ALL have.
TomJoad
· 10 months ago
Our government spied on Martin Luther King jr. (among many others, and many far less political people) in hopes of finding something to use to blackmail him.
I think you have a way too trusting nature, and are ovelooking how these tools are always used, or rather misused. You seem to think we should just totally trust any administration to not misuse these things, meanwhile personal vendettas (we've seen it plenty of times) have police inflitrating peaceful anti-war groups for one example, meaning using up RESOURCES that could be used to fight real crime or terror, being misused and in effect making the people LESS safe.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
If you don't like how our government works, MOVE.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
These terrorist are testing OUR democracy. Once they are defeated, we can hopefully be free again. But this is a WWII type offensive. They know how democracy works, they are counting on it to get to us. We complain as a weak country or we step it up to their level. Those are the rules as they define. WE need to get behind this not against it.
TomJoad
· 10 months ago
So you are proposing we give up on democracy, in effect, doing exactly what the terrorists supposedly want?
No.
Please read a little about ANY (take your pick) authoritarian government that spied on their citizens without checks and balances, that turned police state, etc. They not only STILL couldn't stop attacks (ALL infrastructure is inherently vulnerable) but in the meantime they imprisoned the population, acted as enemies of their own citizens, and injustice reigned.
Our founding fathers fought and knew that even risking their lives and those of our loved ones, even knowing they themselves were "the good guys", they knew unchecked power in the hands of ANYone was the biggest mistake a country could make.
That is where "live free or die" comes from.
Wesinoregon
· 10 months ago
You sound like a terrorist. I don't buy your view.
LeftoverBeefcake
· 10 months ago
I'm sorry, Mr. Wesinoregon, but our ultra-reliable, automated Windows surveillance system has detected that you have some illegal material during a routine automated sweep of your computer. Since our systems are never wrong and are 100% error-free, and since our morally superior, God-fearing detectives have been thoroughly trained in the use of our software, we can only conclude that you are a cyber-criminal and we must prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law. If you cannot afford a lawyer one will be appointed to you. Due to the secretive nature of our software, we are unable to reveal the precise nature of the illegal material on your computer. We appreciate your complete cooperation in this matter. Sincerely, Chief Constable Leftover Beefcake
EmGD
· 10 months ago
C'mon now, the hacking has to be approved by a constable, who has to be satisfied that it's necessary. What other safeguards must you liberals demand? OK, how about a little pop-up window that asks "Are you really sure you want to hack this computer and further slide down the slippery slope of complete government surveillance and move into a more Orwellian society? Yes/No". Will that finally get you to accept the need for "remote searching"?
All Comments
JMO if people in these countries don't tell their government to buzz of very soon they will not be able to.
We had a discussion last week, I believe, about wholesale surveillance of the internet in this country on pretty much the same subject.
And no, I've never encountered those you mentioned probably because I don't visit porn sites. and have good security for spam, phishing, etc.
http://eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php
freaking out because the econ is heading south and they don't know what to
do, since they're living on credit card debt anyway. And of course Dubbya
and Laura are arriving shortly not far from where I live...oh boy!
And how will this affect email in and out of the US? Be afraid, be very afraid...
In the physical world, "evidence" has been planted, a little baggie placed somewhere and then discovered, so tell me, how could a non-secured item like a PC (which has been hacked by the state, at the very least) be then "evidence" against the computers owner?
The other problems with the (to me...moronic) "hey, if you aren't doing anything illegal why would you care?", it misses things like, legal but embarrasing (so suddenly they say, "then don't do anything embarrasing"), which depending can lead to blackmail by a government...of politicians or anyone.
Also, because they have in the past misused also the information. You want some sleazeballs snickering about a private email to your wife?
The moment you start even thinking that the government is listening to you, even if you are doing nothing "wrong", you stop being free.
Just to be clear for some, the issue is not that anybody is concerned that Terrorists will be spied upon. The issue is that our Government can use this technology to spy on political opponents or activists.
Meanwhile, a NYT writer believes that Israel's attack at this point of Bush's leaving might open an opportunity for Obama who has shown support for Israel. However, he also said that by repeating the phrase that there is only one president at this time that Obama is using it to give himself time to think through and give a more considered answer. Be that as it may, by doing nothing, the US is permitting the genocide to continue.
I think you have a way too trusting nature, and are ovelooking how these tools are always used, or rather misused. You seem to think we should just totally trust any administration to not misuse these things, meanwhile personal vendettas (we've seen it plenty of times) have police inflitrating peaceful anti-war groups for one example, meaning using up RESOURCES that could be used to fight real crime or terror, being misused and in effect making the people LESS safe.
No.
Please read a little about ANY (take your pick) authoritarian government that spied on their citizens without checks and balances, that turned police state, etc. They not only STILL couldn't stop attacks (ALL infrastructure is inherently vulnerable) but in the meantime they imprisoned the population, acted as enemies of their own citizens, and injustice reigned.
Our founding fathers fought and knew that even risking their lives and those of our loved ones, even knowing they themselves were "the good guys", they knew unchecked power in the hands of ANYone was the biggest mistake a country could make.
That is where "live free or die" comes from.
http://thesebastards.blogspot.com/