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yer ok w/amazon 9or some other)as long as you know *what* you want, exactly, and have done your homework. but if you choose not to do that, a good local retailer is just the ticket....they are in the biz of serving and not just selling.
um, they pay taxes, which in turn help the quality of your neighborhood.
plus, say you need something fast...a cable for your camera or computer or something. sure, you could save a few bucks with amazon but it would take a week to get to you, or you'd pay more in shipping then you would locally anyway.
not trying to be snarky, but seems like a silly question from someone who is progressive. my black gay friends would say it's the perfect example of elite white gay-ism and why we're so concerned about tax benefits and property in marriages
Our taxes ARE paid by these companies, because so many of the big online companies are headquartered in the San Francisco Bay Area. Most of them are "local" to somewhere.
I think we have to distinguish between huge companies that use predatory practices and innovative businesses that use technology to reach markets in ways we couldn't have imagined 25 years ago.
Overall, if a company is ethical and successful, then I see no reason not to support them -- and by "ethical" I mean, good corporate citizens, employers, and taxpayers.
If they're not, I won't give them my money no matter how convenient it would be or how low their prices are.
I'm not saying you do that; but there are a lot of small stores that provide a level of service that Amazon does not (in fact, I find their computer-generated "recommendations" creepy). If you have not experienced better service at a small independent store, then there's not much reason to pay more. But if you're willing to benefit from the expertise from professional sales people (versus the know-nothings that populate the big box stores, or the impersonal help from Amazon)then, hopefully, you're willing to pay for it.
What I like about indie bookstores is looking at the displays, reading staff recommendations (READING them, not being suggested books by staff, which as I said drives me crazy), and flipping through books. Plus I just enjoy small bookstores.
I never, ever shop Amazon for price. I do it because its structure works for me and the way I like to look for products. I like the database features too, being able to see the other books by the same author and books purchased by others who purchased a book I'm looking at. In fact, I didn't even realize books were cheaper at Amazon. This may change as the economy tanks, but I've never been a price shopper.
If a company sucks, if its business practices are poor, if it practices predatory pricing and marketing, if it harms the local economy (I'm talking about Wal-mart type businesses here), then they don't get my money no matter how much of it they can save. I'm not giving them my dollars, particularly since it's an imaginary savings -- because my tax dollars are paying for the food stamps their employees need to live.
Now, I love independent bookstores. I enjoy them, I sometimes do need a book NOW, not tomorrow but RIGHT NOW, and for that reason I like to make sure they can stay in business. But ultimately they will have to find a market niche and strategy that will keep them in business, beyond just "give us your business or we'll close." That's just the reality.
I also love having vibrant neighborhoods and downtown. I hate malls. I hate big box stores. I love small cafes, boutiques, restaurants, and unusual and interesting shops. But those are the very things we'll never get online or in a mall. They practice a business model part of which is the shopping/browsing experience. So I believe those businesses can and will survive (well, if the economy recovers they will) regardless of how many books I buy online.
Sometimes we want two incompatible things, and I suspect my love of indie bookstores AND Amazon is going to be in that category. Amazon can get me any book (often FROM an indie bookstore that sells through Amazon, btw), and I can get it free in two days or the next day for $4. Hard to beat that.
But overall, no business can remain in business if you have to implore people to support it. It has to give you something you can't get elsewhere -- and that doesn't have to be that it saves you money. There are other considerations. But it has to give value or it will die.
The argument for shopping locally has many facets, but in its simplest form it's about preserving quality of life. If we don't support our local merchants, they can't survive, thus we end up as a nation of Internet shoppers whose sense of community is non-existent. If you go to your local hardware store to buy a hammer or a screwdriver, you encounter friends (and perhaps make some new ones), you experience your neigborhood and participate in your community in a way that is healthy and a lot more satisfying that clicking on PayPal and waiting for the UPS truck to arrive at your door.
How can we expect to have a vibrant local economy if we don't shop locally? How can we support our local school system, pay for municipal and county services if there is no local tax base to draw from? Why are we allowing capital to leak out of our local economies and let it be captured by bankers in Hong Kong or London or someplace? If we don't shop locally, we contribute to the Wal-Martization of the nation. The best resource I can recommend on this topic is Maryland economist Michael Schuman's book, "Going Local." It thoughfully outlines the case for keeping it local. Here's a link-- (and don't buy it from Amazon) -
http://www.greens.org/s-r/22/22-16.html
I didn't know amazon was a problem with the left, but do know B&N gives a lot of money to democrats, so when we get books and such online they are our first choice.
Recently I saw a great new notebook computer at Best Buy... But when enough people buy these online instead of in the store, it'll only be a matter of time before Best Buy will go the way of Circuit City (and Tower Records, and others), and soon we'll never be able to see anything in person before buying it.
Already had that problem recently with shoes... Stores don't carry nearly the inventory they used to (and I'm in NYC, for Pete's sake). Couldn't find my size anywhere in the local stores or chains, so I ordered them on line... and promptly had to return them because they didn't fit.
And yet... I still shop Amazon.
As someone already posted, they "serve" - they give directions, offer assistance, make hot chocolate for passing school children on bitterly cold days, develop relationships with other businesses and customers.
I recently purchased a new winter coat from a small downtown men's clothing store. The price was comparable (on sale) to a large semi-upper department store (like Dillards, Macy's, etc.) and the quality was excellent. More than that, it had been years since I had been in a retail store where the clerk could size me up and pull a coat from the rack without ever asking my size. He also helped put it on, positioned the mirrors for me to look over the merchandise, and talked about why the store chose that brand and style. I ended up purchasing it as much because of how impressed I was with how he knew clothing (and sizes) but that he cared about what he was selling.
Yes, sometimes you pay a few dollars more for real service. But that's sure as hell better than getting on the phone with a national big box (online or brick-and-mortar) and sitting on hold for thirty minutes or pressing number buttons hoping someday to actually talk with a real person.
On a sad side note. This years Christmas season sales are down about 2 %. This number doesn't sound too awful until you realize that this is the first time that these sales figures have been down since they were first followed about 50 years ago
This is perhaps the stupidest and most self centered post you've ever done. Local businesses are getting killed by Amazon and the like. They provide you with those prices because they can buy a gazillion of one item at a much cheaper price. By doing so they eliminate many jobs (hundreds if not thousands) at local businesses around the country. No bookstores, electronic stores and so on means no coffee shops, no restaurants and so on. How hard is that to figure out? Local stores don't need to buy ten thousand Ipods, so they pay more.
You would think someone with roots in the old world of Europe would understand this. Saving a few bucks on a book is the ultimate in trickle down economics, as in down to poverty.
1) Small Business has a much higher employee to Dollar
ratio then big business. Amazon has these amazing electronic
warehouses that really run with very few people, but, are book factories
not bookstores. If every small business were replaced by Amazon,
you'd see a massive uptick in unemployment.
2) I like being able to walk around the corner and browse.
3) The Dollar multiplier to the local economy is big.
If i send $100 into Amazon, that money is slightly spent at
some automated warehouse in Utah, and, at a book publisher in
Ohio, and then vanishes into Bezos pocket.
When i spend $100 at the Book Tree, the money shows up
at the local coffee shop, at the gas station, at the movie theater,
at the doctors, all of which improves the quality of the
touch services i need.
Sure, I could have afew extra bucks if i went to Amazon, but, then
i would have to pay more for a plumber anyways because
he has fewer customers in our area.
Maybe it was back in the day before China made laptops with the built-in obsolescence of months, but the IBM Think Pad I bought from Amazon lasted about 5 years, I loved that thing.
There are no local, small computer stores: they were all run out of business by the big box stores.
And most of the local bookstores were run out of business by Borders and Barnes and Noble (ironically, the local Borders is now going out of business.)
So I shouldn't buy from Amazon, because...?
But given a choice between a big box and Amazon, I'll take Amazon.
At least on Amazon, I can read the advice written by those who've used the product already.
I've occasionally bought from Barnes & Noble and Boarders, but the local Borders is still going under.
Frankly, I now look up a book on Amazon and take it out of my local library, if I can. Which at least supports the librarians.
BTW, I bought a Canon DSLR with 2 lenses at a local retailer and saved $200 over Worst Buy....tell me again how local retailers suck.....
Oh, and all that individual shipping by shopping online is bad for the environment. It adds to global warming. Same reason they say you should eat more locally grown and produced food is to stop all that excess shipping of food around the country.
And that was a really dickish post, John. You've been yelping about Obama throwing us queers under the bus for two weeks over a fucking two-minute invocation thing. Fuck that. It'll all be over on Jan 21. I'm over it already. We have much bigger problems facing the country than that.
I liked reading this blog to see what the gay community issues and ideas are, but not anymore. You can't possible represent because you are way too out of touch.
But when the local store is way overpriced and they try to sell you a ton of crap that you don't want, I say fuck em. I have walked out of these places a few times. There is a great camera shop here in SF, but they don't put pricetags on any item and frankly I don't trust that their prices are fixed - my gut tells me that they will ask whatever they think they can squeeze out of me.
As for supporting the "locals", I feel that I am - living in Nevada, there is an Amazon warehouse in the Reno area where most of my shipments come from, so I don't feel there's an argument there.
First, I'm not sure who's arguing a dollar in your pocket is better than that same dollar being in a business' pocket. That's a bizarre argument. Isn't the point that you're planning on spending that dollar, anyway -- so it won't be in your pocket regardless -- and the issue therefore is who gets it?
Second, the problem with this kind of "why small business" mindset is that it doesn't really grasp what small businesses are. They may be individually owned and operated, but in an economically viable town/region, the small businesses are SYMBIOTIC. Yep. That's your word for the day.
Small, locally-owned and -operated businesses have not been able to be fully independent (in the classic sense?) for, oh, I don't know how long. Maybe never. No one small business can carry all the goods any customer could possibly need, so... we have other businesses do it. No, really. When I owned a bookstore, we carried "everything alternative" -- from small press & university press to alternative medicine, religion, lifestyle, etc etc. Up the street was the massive used bookstore, and across from them, Main Street Books (aka Mainstream books: NYT bestsellers, cards and paper, that kind of thing). Another block farther and in my second year of business, a Women's Bookstore opened.
Sure, some folks from outside the mid-sized town thought this spelled my doom. What they didn't realize was this spelled my boom. I didn't have to carry everything. When the women's bookstore's magazine contract got wonky and she wasn't getting in copies of Out, she sent customers to me. They were just glad they didn't have to drive home empty-handed, that they remembered my shop for having it, AND her shop for sending them to where they could get it. When someone wanted a bestseller (which I never carried), I called up the street & made sure the other store had it, and had it waiting with a smile for the customer to come get it. We were like five or six different sections of a bookstore, but separate instead of all under one roof.
Every store in town worked that way, the antique dealers to the shoe sellers to the places where you could get fancy gifts and home decorating stuff. (They're the ones who taught me to have, and encourage, that mindset with my fellow bookstores.) It's not because we were all kumbaya and holding hands and whatnot. We were/are business people, so under the happy smiles we were as cutthroat as anyone... it's just that we had to be within reason. If one of those bookstores went out of business, the burden of those customers would shift to the rest of us. When a favorite boot store closed, the other stores suffered as well. Small businesses are flexible thanks to being small, but they're most powerful when they're many.
That's why I get frustrated when people talk about "small business" support. Because it's not just "a" small business that you're supporting. It's the network of businesses, which in turn support a variety of other networks. Not just paying local taxes by business license, or by hiring folks. But also things like NGOs and schools and other no-visible-profit ventures: when an organization raffles off a prize, they got that (often at a severe discount if not for free) from a local business. When a school wants its kids to "experience businesses", those kids come volunteer at local businesses -- and we teach them what we know and give them more chances because they're our neighbor's kids.
Of course, there are difficulties in that symbiosis. An entire town throwing its annual December lights-for-tourists stuff, and boy did I get told when I slacked and didn't have lights up on 12/1. I hustled to the hardware store, which thankfully had no problem setting up an account for me to pay later (being a fellow small business and therefore short on cash, natch) -- except the only lights left were colored. Oh, the shame! The agony! (I visit the town years later and they still remember me as "the only person who ever WRECKED our no-colored-lights display rule".)
Amazon may give you good prices. But what it can't give you is local expertise, and it's not even always about what's in your store. It's things like, where do you recommend for fixing your car? Do you know a good real estate agent? My kid needs a math tutor, know anyone? Who's your vet? Your personal doctor? Would you recommend them? Every time I opened my mouth, I was either selling my own goods -- or someone else's. And those folks, in turn, would sell me to their customers back again. My flyers were up in my mechanic's office, at the library, at a friend's church.
That's the power of small businesses -- and it's why protecting one over another makes no sense to me. You can't do it that way, because that's not how it really works. A single small business, independently, will fail just that much faster -- while a business moving in among existing businesses, and working to become part of that unspoken network, will succeed that much sooner. But it's a house of cards, because each small business is, on its own, usually cash-short and inherently fragile: one big enough bad check can, and has, put closed many shops thanks to the cascade failure. As each business goes down, the rest are more and more exposed, until only a few remain and the local economy is effectively dead.
Thing is, there were national chains in our community, too. One of the bookstores on the town's edge was a B Dalton's, a franchise, sure, but it had no problems doing the same as the rest of us. I often sent folks to them, and got customers sent to me in turn. One of the shoe stores was a Payless. The lines aren't always quite so clear between "this small business" and "that small business" -- the fact that one is a franchise does not make it less worthy somehow. For a business owner, the thought is: if I make this customer happy, the person will come back EVEN IF I wasn't the ultimate seller of the item. You don't want to do it all the time, but when faced with someone cranky because you don't have X or Y, you'd be amazed how fast you can make a customer for life when you show them it's more important to assuage their crankiness than to make the sale all by your lonesome. If a franchise has the item, so be it, and as long as that franchise/business does the same back-scratching to you, too, it's all good in the end.
But, no... from what I can tell, these kinds of networks have only been retained in areas where the really massive big box department-store-like places (Walmart, Target, and their kin) have been kept out by intentional blockage (usually a lack of space, like in smaller/older in-town shopping districts) or a community's good fortune. That town I had my bookstore in, oi... I went back three years after closing, and the Borders across from the mall had shut out all but two of the bookstores -- and those survived mostly because they worked together, plus had large communities that looked to the stores not just as book-sources but as community hubs (pagan, gay).
Incidentally, even regional chain stores do usually have some leeway for local community support, such as donating for local schools, fundraising for local NGOs, and community service-like things. A well-run and thoughtful neighbor, even if a franchise, can become a major part of a community's backbone, just like our local hardware store -- Acme, I think it was. But it sure acted like it was a quote-unquote small business, like the rest of us.
I suppose that's the key: Walmart, even Target, and its ilk, try to be everything for everyone. Symbiosis, for them, is a very dirty word, and their endeavors have managed to (at the very least) cloud the issue such that people don't realize what makes a local economy strong isn't one big business, but an entire sheaf of smaller ones. Who was it on this list that noted economies of scale not always being the most beneficial, even if the most efficient? That's part of it, too, I think.
Again, I'm not denying the pleasures and benefits of spending a little more to buy from a small, personalized, locally-owned business. But if it's a contest between online megamerchants vs. brick-and-mortar big boxes, the line gets really blurry.
If al the local retailers, small and large, shut down, then there won't be enough local people earning a living to support restaurants, grocery stores, coffee shops, etc, etc, etc
I replied to kaigou (immed. below; he wrote a really great post from a former small businessperson's viewpoint, probably the best comment on this thread) on this. I get the tax base argument, and I'll give a local big-box a fair chance to earn my business. But that doesn't give them moral superiority over online merchants. Some brick-and-mortar big boxes - I'd say a lot of them - are good operations. I enjoy browsing a Best Buy, a B&N, or a Borders - I'll admit it. Others, like the Circuit City example, are outdated, crappy retail concepts that failed to keep up with the times, and frankly IMHO should do the world a favor and die quietly. I'll spend a little more if I feel there's value in the proposition. I won't spend more for the same product if I think I'm getting ripped off, and irritated in the process.
One idea kaigou does a great job illustrating below is the idea of small businesses surviving by becoming niche sellers, and networks of sellers. If you're looking for just that "right" specialty product, you're more likely to spend a little more and find it from a small business - and let's not forget, many online retailers ARE small businesses - than you'd be to buy a bestselling book, or a commodity item, at a higher price from a small shop.
I justify spending money online because 90% of my income comes from out of state to begin with and it a normal cyber model for many these days to earn their living by supplying a product or service on line. Mine happens to be 100% services distributed on line, but others ship merchandise. I pay local business taxes on the gross receipts, and my state income taxes on the net income. If I was selling products, I would also be collecting sales taxes. Because 90% of the money is coming in from out of state, my town's business is increased without adding any traffic to the roads for serving the customers.
I believe the online model should not be seen as a threat to a community. Growing our food and exchanging other goods and services locally has coexisted with importing and exporting trade for thousands of years. The distribution and shipment of goods using efficient carriers like UPS, USPS, and FedEx has resulted in goods being delivered at low resource costs.
I patronize local stores when the reasons others have offerred here are evident - support of the local community, great service, better products, immediacy, and best of all, the human contact.
No matter how big it gets Amazon will always produce less jobs, both good and bad than either small local businesses or even a big box retailer.
Its just too efficient.
And if you don't think thats a bad think just ask yourself how many more categories of jobs can we afford to lose? We've lost most telemarketing, manufacturing,customer service jobs, and with automated checkout and E-Tailing we are looking to lose retail, stock brokering and bank jobs as well. Simply if people are to eat in a capitalist system they need jobs -- good paying ones and bad ones -- After all we cant all be computer geeks, security guards or nurses
and if we don't have this type of system wither a market economy has to go (say hello to Marxism 2.0) or you get a brutal dictatorship or mass poverty or you get to the point that markets collapse enough that there is no way to raise the revenue necessary to keep our comfy but expensive to run society alive.
if you think I am exaggerating look at the national debt and look at the massive havoc created in state budgets by this one little speed bump--
Now imagine it getting worse than that every year and it feeding on itself
Basically society is remarkably resilient until well it isn't -- now there are solutions (social democracy, shorter work week, that sort of thing) but none of them involve lower prices or less labor costs
I do the reverse, I'll read reviews on Amazon and then order the book at my local bookstore. Same with videos, I intentionally ordered a copy of 'War, Inc' through my local video store specifically to increase sales numbers for that movie *and* to support my local video store. I know the folks that run that video store, they are struggling to make payroll every month. Am I supposed to turn a blind eye to my neighbor and send my money off to some wealthy faceless conglomerate just so I can save 50 cents on the deal? I see it being far more worthwhile to rent videos in person from my neighbor's store than to actively destroy their livelihood by using Netflix. But that's because I'm a Liberal - I *want* to help my fellow man. I want to help out people I know, and if I can make a point to frequent their business rather than be a Scrooge and intentionally fuck over my fellow townspeople like a Conservative, then I do.
Also, I will *never* spend a cent at Amazon because I don't want to fund the GOP. Same thing about Wal-Mart, I don't even like to step foot in a Wal-Mart, and I certainly won't spend any money there. The Waltons are rich enough, they don't *deserve* my hard-earned money, even if they have everything cheaper than anyone else. The GOP is evil enough without my supporting their agenda through shopping at Amazon.
Being greedy and gleefully shopping online to help destroy your neighbor's business is not liberal or progressive, it's pure evil. STOP SHOPPING AT AMAZON!
They and their employees also pay local taxes.
But, basically, I hate Amazon because they're amoral dirtbags who sell animal-fighting books and videos.
When I do buy online, I go to barnesandnoble.com or powells and I try to buy through goodsearch.com, so my charity gets some of the money kicked back.
I go to Overstock.com when I can.
I've read that their CEO is pretty progressive when it comes to animal-rights issues.
(He quit carrying fur products after he saw a video on how fur is stripped from live animals.)
I'd be better off mailing these businesses a check than shopping them, and you are right, John-- that isn't going to happen. I've sold my labor to some of them for not-very-much-pay for enough years to not start harboring foisted guilt over finding better value and honest, earned advantages of online shopping.
As to expertise, I can be social online in knowledgeable communities that share my interests to learn about related, tangential values that compete for my dollar.
I think they've quit donating as much to the Republicans as they used to.
In 2004, they were giving 61 percent of their political donations to Repubs. (compared to Barnes and Noble, who were giving over 90 percent of their donations to Dems)
http://www.mobylives.com/xmasblue.html
Now, it seems, Amazon is giving more to Dems, though the vast majority of their money is going to special interest campaigns.
http://www.newsmeat.com/billionaire_political_d...
Let's face it, we're in transition between bricks & mortar and e-commerce. Some local stores will survive and some won't. I choose to keep the money in my pocket and buy online if it's cheaper.
they become bigger businesses, they allow employees a choice of where to work and they are much more responsive to local needs and tastes (the first thing a teenager does once his family can afford it? He stops buying shirts, gear, skate decks, etc. at Walmart- and that kid REMEMBERS that day).
However...shopping, actual physical shopping is so inefficient, you'd have to pay me to do it. Parking! Looking through the store for the right section! Pawing through what everybody else has gone through already! Finding a cashier! and so on.
However, If a local store has actual service, I don't care about the best price. Case in point, REI for sporting goods: excellent service, fair return policy- I keep going back! I stood in a line Monday that was 15 minutes long, no problem. Williams Sonoma, too- if you need a kitchen gadget, they are great.
My last point: supporting a cause by shopping at a 'Liberal' business is great, but I'd rather save the money and donate it to a Progressive candidate or cause......except for Walmart. I HATE WalMart. Just hate them. If I go into a WalMart, it's to put up a 'Work Union' sticker and leave.
http://www.opensecrets.org/pacs/expend.php?cmte...
They really like to spread it around.
They gave to Ricky Santorum in 2006!
Losers!
Man, I keep reading this and the more I read it, the more I ask myself, "What am I doing reading this guy's blog?"
You can make any point if you misrepresent the other side's argument.
But still, methinks thou doest protest too much! John" (I've previously mentioned my bullsh:t meter.)
And again, I agree with most of the comments here, wholeheartedly. I think I've been inside a Walmart store maybe twice in my life. I do my clothes shopping at Goodwill and other Thrift stores. I don't believe in recycling every last shred of gumwrapper, though. In order to stay sane in the long term, It's absolutely necessary to keep some perspective on what one person can do. The oligarchs are laughing at you while you bicker about the details.
A group of rogues if I ever saw one.
http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/committe...
(Amazon only gave a couple grand to them in 2006)
But the way I see it, there are three sides to businesses, plus all the connections to other businesses. There's the company, there's the consumer, and there's the labor. And all three are in conflict. The company makes the most money by screwing the labor and producing shitty and expensive products; the consumer gets the best deal when the company spends more on making a better product but short-changes labor on the costs; labor gets the best deal when it's comfortable and has benefits from the company, which raises prices for the consumer.
So if we stop frequenting our local stores, neither the company nor the labor gets any money from us, and therefore, people in our neighborhood don't have money or the incentive to open a business. And if you want a product right now, there's not much you can do if there are no local stores. You can't just go over to Amazon and buy something, because Amazon is somewhere out in subspace and you have to wait until the thing you bought magically teleports to your house days or weeks later.
Not to mention that shopping at a physical store gives you a much better feel for the items and lets you shop around. If you buy from Amazon instead of those stores, those stores may not exist when you need them.
I would never just go give a local business $50, but if the difference on a book is a dollar or two, I find it worth it to support a small business. One of my local stores has a stamp card that gives you $10 off after you spend $100, which effectively reduces their prices 10% over time.
Many improve the culture of the local area as well as the economy.
Read the reviews, listen to the samples, then buy the stuff from a more reputable store or on-line vendor.
Even when it's something really rare, that only one of their "approved vendors" might have, I usually just search the name of the "approved vendor" and buy direct from them, bypassing Amazon.
The idea of customer service and expertise is almost a myth in a lot of parts of the country. Just because you are a small business owner specializing in one service or product doesn't automatically make you an expert at that. There are a lot of small business owners, bookstore owners included, that don't know their "ahem" from a hole in the ground.
By comparison, Amazon's "If you like this product, you'll love this other product" system is EERILY accurate. Some of the recommendations they've come up with for me have genuinely scared me because of how absurd, and yet how precisely right they are. "If you like Star Wars novels and country music, you'll love this book on the fuedal era of Japan." ??? Those things have absolutely nothing to do with each other, but yes... yes I would like to read that.
I'm not happy about their political donations, and I know that money spent locally is better than money spent across the country; but I can't stomach dealing with crowds, parking, bad weather, traffic, RUDE employees, un-guaranteed stock, higher prices, etc... just to help out a nationwide chain-store that happens to employ a few locals, usually for a lot less than a living wage.
And besides, I am forgetful. I like being able to pre-order books (especially books in a series) months in advance and have them just show up in my mailbox. It's like having a mini-Christmas several times a year. Local businesses are just going to have to learn some way to compete.
Let me start off by saying, I LOVE Amazon, as an american living in Norway, it is my main source for the books I can't easily get here, and other things too.
But as a guitarist, we run into this more than most because of the subjective nature of sound. One wants an amp, pedal, or guitar, but it is a REAL hands on thing. You may have questions on how to use it, etc. I have NEVER done this because I think it is totally immoral, but some folks go to their small local mom & pop music store, use the owner/salesmans time asking all kinds of things about the product, if they have one in stock, maybe even sit there and play it for a half or full hour....then say thanks, go out the door, and order it online for 1/3 of the price. That sucks.
But, I don't know any answer...because the mere fact that the online stores are so inexpensive, and the little guy gets used and not paid, in my visits to the US I see that the little "used to be helpful" music stores have less and less service and knowledge. Also even in the old days, some little mom and pops could be rude as hell.
This is a different issue than the Wal-mart kind of issues. WM depresses local wages in a town with one, they unfairly burden the city health system, and they are a direct threat to the small businesses, because one can drive out to WM and have the same item the same day, probably just as easy (if not easier) than to the mom and pop.. where Amazon (though locally accessed from your PC) doesn't affect local wages directly, burden the health system, and the local store may be more attractive to a customer who doesn't want to wait a few days for the items, but wants it now, as well as wants to handle it, ask questions about it, try it out...etc.
Amazon also helps create local jobs, in that somene has to deliver the item to your door right? And by necessity, they have to live around there somewhere.
Used to be, for some complex thingamajig, you'd go in an ask "I want to buy a <thingy>. I want to use it for <whatever> and my price range is <this>, what are some good options for me and how do they work?" and you'd have a kind of expert guide to help you decide through the types, and answer your questions, even if technical (say, for a stereo, asking signal-to-noise ratio, etc.) and get an answer. Theoreticaly, but in reality, it was catch as catch can, some knew, many didn't or EVEN WORSE...bullshitted. You know, where you ask a technical question "is this capable of MIDI out also?" and they hesitate, look a little frantic, then calm down and say "um...yeah......yeah it is" and you KNOW they just don't know.
But nowdays you can go read (often) lots of user reviews, technical specs, contact the manufacturer by email, ask and research to where, when you get the thingy, you know it inside out almost, have read the manual, etc.
No store is going to give you that much info as you can get on the net, so by comparison, you percieve "knowledge has gone down" in stores. It's really the same as always, but you got used to MORE.
They treat their employees better and they give to Democrats.
Shopping at Walmart is like handing money over to Mitch McConnell and John Boehner.
If you don't give a shit about the local economy, then this is not something you have to worry about. If you do, its a good idea to look at and balance the benefits of keeping money and jobs in one's local economy vs "it's cheaper". It's not a case of NEVER use Amazon, or never go for the cheapest. But I personally try and find it at a locally owned business.
By way of comparison, I in fact DO spend more money at businesses who have buisness practices that I want to support. To use your example, I do give American Appearl A couple thousand dollars every year, and I do it because they pay a living wage to their workers. I pay more for clothing made in America by Union labor for both personal needs and for my businesses promotional expenses. I pay more for this because I find a living wage union job is something I as a consumer want to support.
I refuse to shop at Wal-Mart due to their history of union busting, even though in many cases it may be cheaper at Wal-Mart.
I refuse to stay in hotels that are having labor disputes, if at all possible, and I only shop in grocery stores that are union shops. I do all this because I value the role of labor unions in the workplace and want to support workers who have fought for a living wage and collective bargaining. And I pay more for doing so.
You may or may not have that level of commitment to your local contractors, janitors and other support personal who work and are supported by your local business, but I do, and I sometimes do pay more to shop locally. But I do so content in the knowledge that my dollars are not being shipped out of my very expensive to live in community, to some red state that gave Amazon a massive tax break and subsidy to have their warehouse in their state – a subsidy that gives Amazon the ability to give those discounts, and a subsidy that is most likely taking funding away from said states schools and social services.
I gladly pay a few cents-to-dollars more if it means that my community will have a solid job and economic base. Se the link above to the sfgate article, which sites some pretty solid research into the economic effects of buying locally.
Further, It is very unlikely that my dollars spent in my local community are going to support things like Prop 8 -- even second or third hand. Can you say the same about the supply chain of that purveyor of stuff at discount prices?
How many shipment centers does Amazon have in Utah? Just asking...
I can remember when "goodwill" was a considered added value to a business being sold. Now with corporate-think, it's just another bottom line item that can be scrapped since "efficiency" is more valued. Efficiency tends over time to become the dehumanizing aspect of any business. After all, we're human beings, not robots.
I don't buy online or by mail, either, or from TV' actually, I'm not much of a consumer of new products at all since I'm more of a recycler in respect to the planet. I like to compare quality, see what I'm buying, etc. when I do purchase something new. As for books, tapes, etc., I can't pay $30 for a book; most I buy second hand and I tend to keep them a long time. People have become so busy they really don't take time to "browse" and make good decisions about purchases which can be fatal to your wallet if you're not careful. The internet for me is about information, not purchasing power.
Anyone who think the real "agora" is dead is delusional. As long as we're social creatures, we'll have it. It's sad that the trend is toward the anonymous, bland shopping experience many have become used to.
Most get an MBA and wind up on Wall St. and we see what happened there...
It's the fact that "buying locally" keeps money in the community, allowing members of the community to spend in their own neighborhood. That keeps other jobs in the area, increasing the likelihood that the tax base will remain strong. More folks will be attracted to neighborhoods that have good services, and will buy homes. Tax base stays healthy. Schools and hospitals are funded. Roads are repaired. Libraries stay open. Police and Fire Departments are staffed and have what they need to keep the community safe.
Amazon is great for price, but nothing beats knowing that your discretionary dollars are helping to keep your own community healthy and vital. Think of it as a very selfish voluntary "tax." I support my local stores as often as I can, because it benefits ME.
It's ALL about the money. So...I'm going back to Wal-Mart. I'm never going back to my local bookstore (oh noes!!! I have to pay $3.00 more - the agaony!!)
You know, liking Amazon is fine. But that doesn't mean you have to be such a douchebag when it comes to supporting your local businesses. Sure, the era of the local electronic dealer is probably gone; heck, I don't even know if there is one here in Austin.
But still, it's your totally flippant regard for local businesses that is like totally not PC for us liberal lefties here on the left.
Come on dude, get with it.
The main benefit is that poor people with no access to a computer and elderly or young people with no understanding of how to order things online can not get books any way other than by going to a store.
I love Amazon and sing its praises a thousand times a day. I order from them constantly, though I still try to patronize my local gay bookstore since a gay bookstore provides a safe space and a huge beacon of hope for gay kids whose parents have their computers fixed so that they will never see the word "gay" on their computers and who have their TV's fixed so the kids can't even watch "Ellen" or "Will and Grace," and there are MANY such parents right here in progressive Washington DC.
The issue lurking here is what are "local" communities. In rural areas, local communities are lifelines. You might want to pay more to a local business so that their goods and services will be there in an emergency. It's sort of a form of insurance or the taxes you pay for the rescue squad.
However as one gets closer to urban areas the local identity falters. Fewer will pay more money to support the local joe when they can get a product/service cheaper a few subway stops away or a short drive across the river.
Of course, he eventually had a falling-out with the owner of the service station and never bought a drop of gas from him again. Then it was perfectly ok to buy the cheapest gas at the Sohio by the highway.
The more I think about this it seems to be a rather strange question to be asked by someone who relies on his own "small online community" to support his ability to keep his "small online community" going by either clicking through his advertising base or by directly donating money.
Let me spell it out for you : Supporting local businesses is an investment in your local economy, and in the ability of the people in your community to support themselves, rather than the only source of income be from large corporations who by sheer size will always have more lobbying power than the individual.
Love your "it's all about me" attitude. How about if I say that I have no problem with Rick Warren giving the inauguration speech, since I'm straight and married and it doesn't really affect me?
This post is right up there with your "Bomb Iran now!" post.
Luckily for me, your posts and interests rarely show this much shallowness.
Read this shorter version of 'The Idea of a Local Economy' by Wendell Berry:
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles...
From WB:
"Perhaps one also begins to see the difference between a small local business that must share the fate of the local community and a large absentee corporation that is set up to escape the fate of the local community by ruining the local community.
"So far as I can see, the idea of a local economy rests upon only two principles: neighborhood and subsistence. In a viable neighborhood, neighbors ask themselves what they can do or provide for one another, and they find answers that they and their place can afford. This, and nothing else, is the practice of neighborhood. This practice must be, in part, charitable, but it must also be economic, and the economic part must be equitable; there is a significant charity in just prices."
And I might add: among other things, a local merchant is going to be less inclined to lie, cheat, and steal from his neighbors. If he wants to stay in business, that is. And then we might paraphrase the late, great Ed Abbey: "International Syn-Fuels: Headquarters in Brussels, Paris, London, New York. Hindquarters spread all over the rest of the earth."
Four years ago, I read - probably here! - that Amazon gave large amounts of cash toward the Chimp's (re)election and THAT did it for me. I've vastly reduced the amount of business I gave them and told them why.
I transferred my book buying to Barnes & Noble who's megastores had a lot of good titles. Against my resistance, I even bought that damn discount which gave me the illusion of savings.
Occasionally I dip my toe back to Amazon but my dislike of them has grown especially in light of the article below about their working conditions:
http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/amazon/archi...
Granted it's not here but it indicates Amazon's values are fracked. I will no longer reward bad corporate behavior with my business.
As for the local business over chain stores, I'd rather go local if they put their best foot forward. I do think that the Gooper Depression will force a massive change in our shopping habits.
It's always survival of the fittest isn't it?
Dunno about books, but for groceries, produce, fruits and vegetables you definitely want local stores and local farmers.
Plus, Amazon doesn't actually publish it's financial data, so we have to view them with a bit of skepticism.
By the way, I actually supported a local bookstore in New York City over the holidays, with prices that were comparable, if not better than Amazon. At the risk of sounding oh-so "un-PC" (that tired, dated and irksome phrase), I actually like to see storefronts in neighborhoods populated with people rather than look at empty storefronts with graffiti and everyone running past them for their lives as we did in past Republican recessions. Oh, and not to mention also supporting some nameless, faceless warehouse just to the right of some ugly suburban sprawl.
If you want to support the American corporation (because it's obviously doing so well by you medically speaking and all), go right ahead. But stop denigrating those who would like to support their local, independent businesses. It's not necessary, and its completely offensive.
You know why a local dollar spent is more important to you than one spent remotely. The multiplier is much larger with money spent at your local store. So if your goal is to improve the economy spend locally.
You already are living in the high cost environment. And you are living there for a reason.
(If you need a refresher, just check the "walk score" web site)
http://www.walkscore.com/rankings/what-makes-a-...
Just suck it up and pay the extra bucks to support your local store.
And have a happy new year!
So when I need a book that I'd otherwise have to order through my local bookstore, I'll often buy it from amazon where I can sometimes get a deal. But, if it's a book that my local bookstore is likely to have, I'll buy it from them. And my reason is that I need a local bookstore. When I know what I want, amazon works fine, but if I'm not sure, I need to be able to browse. I don't find amazon to be useful for browsing. I find so many great books from browsing in my bookstore that I would never in a million years find in Amazon. Their recommendation system is really badly done, and the reader reviews are rarely helpful. And if I want a local store for browsing, I have to support that store, so I make a point to buy my books from them.
When you buy from a big company (for example Amazon) you money is sucked from your community and sent to Seattle or wherever by the close of business.