AMERICAblog: You have Rick Warren officially spooked
Savage8862
· 11 months ago
Melissa Etheridge misses the point. First I would have to say where the hell has she been: “I hadn't heard of Pastor Rick Warren before all of this.” Secondly she thinks Warren is not a “gay-hater” because he has bought her albums. Big deal. That is like saying a rapist isn’t really a rapist because he mentioned love or bought a condom. Is she that naive? Or am I that dumb? Following Melissa's logic, gays are relegated to being hairdressers, florists, interior designers, and entertainers. After all Warren has all of her CDs.
She talks about how Warren regrets his choice of words but this is the standard “MO” for these right wing nut bags. They spew hateful remarks and when the heat is turned on they either proclaim it was taken out of context or that they misspoke. No. The truth comes out first and the lies try to cover-up the truth. Pastor Warren truly hates gays. In my heart I believe this. And if you think that he doesn’t because he is helping Africa with their AIDS crisis I want to remind you that AIDS in Africa is primarily a straight disease. Why not work with gay AIDS victims here in this country. Thousands need support, love, and medical care – especially when state’s are cutting budgets. Yet Warren offers nothing. And if you are gay, you can’t seek spiritual guidance and membership in his church because you are banned from joining if you are a “practicing” homosexual. He likens homosexuality to incest, pedophilia, and bestiality. He lied during Prop 8 by saying free speech of pastor’s will be taken away if it passes. That teachers will indoctrinate our young, impressionable children. He’s not a gay hater is he Melissa? Appeasement no longer works.
John Aravosis
· 11 months ago
Yeah he regretted his words, until this yesterday when he called us hateful, evil, christ-ophobes.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Exactly. Melissa totally got punked.
Indigo
· 11 months ago
Melissa has a career to protect although I didn't expect her to market to the reich wing x-files set, but here she is . . . bye, hon!
billy
· 11 months ago
So, Melissa's just not gay enough or hasn't been gay enough to get it?
Butch1
· 11 months ago
"She talks about how Warren regrets his choice of words . . ."
Usually, the first words spoken in anger are the one's the person actually thinks and feels. Once, they realize that their words are being questioned, they back pedal and try to soften them. I always trust my judgment of a person's intentions by what they first say, it is either their truthful feelings or if they say, " The Iraqi war wasn't about oil", then you know it was. each one is a lie.
elRey
· 11 months ago
Really, Melissa. REALLY!?! Are you that easily charmed by a fat white man? He never apologized to anyone else and he will never change his views. He is an anti-gay bigot, I don't care if he was sociable with Melissa Ethridge, or some naive homo in a west hollowood thrift shop. HE IS AN ANTI-GAY BIGOT, PERIOD. His church prohibits gays from membership, he equates gay relationships with pedophilia and incest, is that okay with you Melissa, REALLY!?!
Perhaps you should go back into the closet.
Merlin
· 11 months ago
John. you boys are having a "magical thinking moment" with Rickie!!!
Jim Olson
· 11 months ago
Good. We may not get Warren removed from the Inauguration, but we may get the Obama administration to pay a little more attention. Don't piss off teh gays.
ChurchHater
· 11 months ago
(though the church's apparent PR firm (what church has a PR firm?)
obviously one with much too much money....poor idiot sheep, going broke so fat guy can ride the wave of the New Christian Right...
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 11 months ago
A church needs a PR firm? Now that's what I call evangelism!!!
Observer
· 11 months ago
What will it take to spook Obama into stop throwing cannabis users in jail?
Suggestions?
Steve
· 11 months ago
John, your blog is more powerful than i thought. You are a voice that is definitely heard across this country. I thank you for speaking up and out for gays and our rights. We just don't have many voices, or leaders, and this is GREAT that you are forcing this homophobe "pastor" to face up to his racist/bigotted statements.
I still can't believe that Obama chose this guy. Now, I'm beginning to wonder about Mr. Obama.
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 11 months ago
Uh oh...sounds like some rentboy is about to go public...now, now Bette Davis said never speak ill of the dead...Joan Crawford is dead. Good.
Now, now never speak ill of the outed fundy pastor. The fundy pastor is a bottom. Good.
JohnInTexas
· 11 months ago
Ok don't just clam up, tell us all you know dammit!!!!! :)
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 11 months ago
Well I don't really know much about Warren. But I know that he sets off the gaydar of several friends of ours. Add to that the fact that your average rentboy will tell you that clergy, as well as pro athletes, are some of their most regular "johns". The busiest week ever for the Dallas rentboys was in the summer of 2001 when the Southern Baptist Convention was in town. The 2nd busiest week was when the Conference of Catholic Bishops was here. The boys had to call in reinforcements from Austin and Houston. One of our buddies said he was just plum tuckered out by Saturday that week. Anyway, Warren...methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Totally...he is such a queen. A big girl as they say.
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 11 months ago
Yup...that pussy goatee screams 'mo
klm
· 11 months ago
Watch Melissa Etheridge's painful, cringe-worthy appearance on The View where she tries to convince Elizabeth Hasselbeck not to deny marriage rights to gay people. I get the feeling Melissa Etheridge thinks that being nice and friendly and sweet to people who hate you is the way to get them not to hate you.
Melissa Etheridge needs to realize that she is not Gandhi. Gandhi was a cunning, shrewd, clever strategist. He did what he did because it was effective, not because he was a saint. Melissa needs to step off her weird love-everybody high horse and realize that millions of gays and lesbians who don't have her level of wealth, power and fame are suffering much more than she ever will.
Glenn I
· 11 months ago
Melissa Etheridge is great and all, but hers is just another voice. And not as informed as I'd like, especially considering the way she seems to represent for gay folks.
JohnInTexas
· 11 months ago
I'm a gay folk, and I didn't ask Melissa to speak or represent me. I've been around a lot longer and been out a lot longer than she has, so if anything it is I who should be doing the representing and her that needs to be shutting the fuck up or speak for herself.
coolcatdaddy
· 11 months ago
Thank you. I feel the same way about HRC sometimes - it represents one point of view that, on the whole, may not represent what LGBTs are really thinking.
No Hope In Politics
· 11 months ago
The Ricker is just looking for downlow dates.
He wants some glaze on that donut-hole goatee!
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 11 months ago
Naw he's not into oral so much. He prefers riding the cowboy.
Observer
· 11 months ago
You may be right.
He wouldn't want anything to interrupt the flow of food into his foul mouth.
Glenn I
· 11 months ago
Supposedly Rick Warren tithes 90% of his income to charity. Is there any independent confirmation of this? I've seen the number thrown around as though it justifies Obama's embrace or mitigates Warren's concrete contributions to the fight against human rights for gay people. But what is the number's source? Rick Warren's lying mouth? Simple Google searches don't reveal any other authority.
Let's say Warren does spend gobs of money on poor, sick, hungry people somewhere. How does he spend it? Who gets the money? Are these charities his own charities, paying his own followers? What else does the money do? Does it support or interfere with family planning work in poor countries? Does it support or interfere with freedom of speech, religion, assembly? What, when we're talking about Rick Warren's largesse, is its price?
No Hope In Politics
· 11 months ago
Charity = Sexual re-orientation concentration camps.
Once again John, aren't these good things? You seem to be saying that there is nothing he can do that will satisfy you. Well, then who is the one that looks intolerant? At least in terms of appearances, he appears to be taking the high road.
Personal Failure
· 11 months ago
Rick Warren is still a bigot, no matter who he takes pictures with. "You are being intolerant of my intolerance" is a specious argument at best. Yes, I am intolerant of intolerance because it is unacceptable, pure and simple.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
YES...Do not let up. Keep it coming John. Spot on correct once again.
CALL and WRITE the Obama transition team to demand that President-elect Obama to say no to anti-gay Rick Warren from delivering the invocation at Obama's inauguration.
WHAT YOU CAN DO:
1. CALL/EMAIL Emmett Belivau, Executive Director/CEO of the Inaugural Committee:
I'm going to disagree and am fully prepared for the flaming. I think you've got Warran right where you want him. He can't speak out about how much he hates gay people, but whatever cache/PR value having Warren has still holds. I guess I'm saying keep your friends close, your enemies closer. If we can keep his behaviour in check and let him help Obama in reaching out to moderates, then maybe this is the best alternative. We're not going to change his mind, but we can try to keep him from speaking out about it through this pressure we've generated
I also worry that if Obama cans him, it will be viewed as an attack from "they gays" and turn off some moderates that really don't think about gay/straight issues (as it doesn't impact their life). Part of the reason the Republicans lost is that their tent got smaller and smaller. A lot of African Americans vote in favor of Prop 8. Should we kick them out of the Democratic party? Granted, Warren is a different kind of monster.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
I do agree with you that this is a NO WIN situation. Obama has stepped in it big time. And it's just simmering under the surface.
fredndallas
· 11 months ago
I appreciate your point ARP.
I think there is virtually NO CHANCE that BO will pull back from this invitation to more homophobia. He is too arrogant. He is too stubborn. He is too conflicted internally.
If I'm right, the more hell we raise, the better it serves to bring WIDE SPREAD attention to the unacceptability of such freaking lying hypocrisy and all that goes with it.
Ken Clark
· 11 months ago
Also Warren and his ilk are never ever going to vote democratic no matter how much reaching across the aisle is done by Obama.
Personal Failure
· 11 months ago
We are made of win!
If you read what some fundies think of christ, you actually would be a christophobe. I'm having nightmares after reading a joyful discussion of how, come the end of days, christ will turn the unbelievers into little bits of gore with his voice, while riding a white horse.
Many people described this as "beautiful" and "wonderful".
Hateful much?
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Yes, then there is my favorite belief: Christ will come to Israel and save the jews if they convert to christianity...they have apparently three months to do this....(it's like how many angels dance on the head of a pin.....answer: Seven...seven angels)
So, three months...then if they don't convert, they are condemned to hell.
NICE.
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
I don't think you have any idea how bad it is.
If you have a strong stomach and aren't prone to head exploding check out this site:
Click on any of the categories under "Fundies say the darndest things" and prepare to be blown away by REAL statements made in the comment sections of REAL "Christian" websites.
I CHALLENGE anyone and EVERYONE here who complains that gay people are hateful toward Christians or that we are being hateful or unkind to Warren to read just ONE PAGE of that site and then come back here and talk to me about "nasty", "hate" and "(fill in the blank)-o-phobia.
Put the site into your "favorites" and refer to it every time you start feeling sorry for these people and every time you start thinking that THEY are the victims of the people they oppress.
Butch1
· 11 months ago
Gays and Lesbians have been around before the Jews, the Christians, and Islamic religions, and marriage ( in its many forms ). I think we will be around when all these charlatans are gone and it has nothing to do with Warren's viewpoint on creation or evolution. Because we are still here proves that we have always been in the mix or balance in nature's evolutionary process not that we should be wiped out of existence as Warren so arrogantly boasts.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
I am sorry, Butch, Reverend Rick, that noted scientist and expert on evolutionary theory, has it all figured out. If evolution were true, gays would have all died out, therefore evolution is not true! ;)
Butch1
· 11 months ago
One can plainly see that old Rick skipped out on many of his science and biology classes. I guess he knew his future would hold that he didn't need them. ;-)
brat
· 11 months ago
It might seem like piling on, but NOW is the time to hit Warren. We need to keep flogging and highlighting his homophobia. Keep the focus on Warren, his statements, his words, his actions. Ignore the religious blather, because that's a distraction. It's Warren's statements and actions to which we object. He should not be rewarded for being hateful.
This will give the Obama team a clear and unmistakeable message. Don't mess us over, friend, ever, friend.
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
Here is my issue with the way Rick Warren is handling all of this.
He says one thing to the media. Something ENTIRELY different to Melissa Ethridge in a PRIVATE telephone conversation. And something ENTIRELY different again to his congregation.
If he really meant what he supposedly said to Melissa then why has he not said it in any of the defensive interviews and press releases that he's done over the last few days? Why did he not include in his "message to his flock" that some people on HIS side of this debate were being VERY hateful, very homophobic and very unChristian? Why didn't he acknowledge the extreme and very visible homophobia that is common in the Christian community? Why did he not mention the REAL hate-speech and REAL hate-crimes that are committed in the name of his religion DAILY? Why did he not acknowledge why so many in the gay community are hurt and angry with him and other Christians who work so hard to marginalize them, degrade them, demonize them and deny them rights?
He didn't do ANY of these things because THAT would have been way too "Christian" of him. Let's face it he hasn't REALLY been in the business of being Christian. Rather, he seems to be in the "Christianity" business. He's been more concerned with making it look like everything he's doing is Christian and making lots of money in the process.
Ray Boltz
· 11 months ago
Wonder what he says to Ted Haggard during 'pillow talk'?
Butch1
· 11 months ago
He continues to "forgive him" for the sins he is about to commit. ;-)
Millicent
· 11 months ago
Oh, man of a many-forked tongue.
scytherius
· 11 months ago
Awesome. Keep it coming!
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
What I'd really like to know is what role, if any, the Obama team has been playing in these various attempts to defuse the situation. If Warren's video message was encouraged (but not reviewed) by Obama's people as a way to help smooth things over, then Obama got punked, too.
Butch1
· 11 months ago
No, Obama owns this as much as his transition team, it is he, who makes the final decision on these issues.
The Bag of Health and Politics
· 11 months ago
I wrote about a solution today: inviting Peter Gomes to give a co-invocation with Rick Warren. Now, that would be the message the President-elect was originally looking for.
No Hope In Politics
· 11 months ago
Saw that at Orange Satan.
Wondered if by the same logic it would be appropriate to have David Duke & MLK III appear together.
Y'know... Fair & Balanced.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
REMEMBER: Warren started the hate. We are just reacting to it.
Scott
· 11 months ago
This whole Rick Warren thing just goes to show how desensitized Americans are to anti-gay propaganda from "christians", which is no different than the anti-Jew propaganda from the Nazi's. Same comparisons (Jews are wealthy/gays are wealthy, Jews are after your kids/gays are after your kids, Jews are filthy and diseased/gays are filthy and diseased).
Only stupid people will disagree that there's something wrong with that. It is NOT acceptable, especially when it's coming from a so-called "man of God".
Atheism and anti-"christians" are on the rise (100% thanks to kooks like Rick Warren for chasing them off from the church). Will Americans find it acceptable once "christians" are a religious minority, and the anti-"christians" start shouting and passing along similar propaganda about THEM?
It's something for ALL so-called "christians" to think about, for future reference.
benb
· 11 months ago
Can't he just say "Let God be the Judge" and stay out of my life? These evangelicals love to complain about how government is intruding in their lives but they have no inhibition about trying to interfere in mine. What's really maddening is that things like same-sex marriage and other non-discrimination issues have absolutely no effect on anyone else.
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 11 months ago
Homophobia works. To raise money for Jesus. Most ignorant people think of only ONE thing when they think of gay men: butt fucking. And this one image to them is icky...very icky. It's basal at its best: icky icky, pee pee, titter, giggle, and send Jesus money to stop it. The way a ten year old thinks. And that is why it works.
Butch1
· 11 months ago
It seems that every society, whether it has a caste system or not, needs a "whipping-boy" or a "scapegoat" to make them feel better regardless of where they are on the social pecking order latter, and we, unfortunately, are it..
Bostonian_Queer_in_Dallas
· 11 months ago
Yes...gay is the new black
Butch1
· 11 months ago
It is unfortunate that many religious blacks can not see this.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
i quoted Bayard Rustin on this point upthread aways.
ron
· 11 months ago
you can only expose people like warren, theres no changing their minds, no meeting in the middle, no arguing in "good faith," har har. being absolutely convinced of ones own ignorance no matter the facts, no matter reality, no matter what is what, is makes a fundamentalist a fundamentalist.
GaryBrush
· 11 months ago
I don't think that Obama has anything to do with it. This is Warren trying to get his good name. I don't think that Obama is even thinking about it.
fredndallas
· 11 months ago
You are most likely right.
BO is smug and arrogant to the maximum. Too cool.
Unfortunately this means it is going to require all the more expression of outrage and political cost to EVER get through this man's self-satisfied smugness.
Having his "too cool" image badly ruffled -- THAT he will not like!
Tom
· 11 months ago
Warren has himself in a serious bind. Any move he makes now will either piss off LGBT supporters or Evangelical bigots.
BWL
· 11 months ago
FWIW: The LDS (Mormons) have also used a PR firm; Edelman.
Ben Dover
· 11 months ago
These guys fear being exposed for what they are. Their only power comes from the people who mindlessly follow them. Shine the spotlight on and apply a little pressure to people of Warren's ilk and they fold faster than a flimsy WalMart lawn chair. Warren is delusional if he believes this is going to go away with a mere few pictures. Congrats again John, it's always amazing to watch ABlog in action.
woodka
· 11 months ago
If it takes religion to justify your particular "morality", you're doing it wrong.
Homosexuality is not immoral. Lying about it is.
JohnInTexas
· 11 months ago
You're so right. And I don't recollect ever reading or learning in my Sunday school growing up that any one sin was worse or better than another...a sin is a sin period, there are no degrees.
sullivan
· 11 months ago
Unless you were raised Catholic.........they assign a level for each sin. Try being 11 years old and figuring that one out.
cool blue reason
· 11 months ago
Via a comment at Huffpo, apparently the "ban the gay" language may be coming back:
Rick Warren is a parasite. He survives off other people who happen to feel good enough about him to give him money. Are we surprised at his latest dance?
Obama threw the gay under the bus. So now we know. Can a pollster please call me and ask me "how is Obama doing?"
kevinbgoode
· 11 months ago
Absolutely. I'd like one to call me too. I don't think Mr. President-Elect "Separate but Equal" Obama realizes that gay Americans didn't forget McClurkin and they really won't forget this travesty with Warren.
larry
· 11 months ago
The question should be posed to Barack Obama...do you think that my relationship with one person for 25 years rises to simple Pedophilia and Incest? Then maybe if you do you should take both my partner and I off your daily email list.....luckily neither of us are Jewish because we would also be going to hell...ooops..forgot....we probably are. So this character is post partisan...this character and his selection to give the invocation is reaching out to those we disagree....suppose this is turning the cheek. Well I will turn my back on Warren at the inauguration, I will turn my back next time I hear from the Transition team wanting a buck, or asking to help Hillary...or gosh....in 2012. Warrens selection isn't just an insult to most of us Mr. President Elect...you have insulted yourself.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
I personally called friends of mine...litereally twenty minutes worth of time. And raised ten thousand bucks for Obama. Plus all of the money I gave personally.....I feel I made a difference. I have been w/ Obama from the very beginning.
Unless something incredibly dramatic happens......ie: ENDA passes, or repeal of DADT. I will be supporting ANOTHER candidate for 2012. And I will encourage off of my RICH friends to do the same.
Gay people gave disproportionately high amounts when comparied to other groups. The Obama campaign can no longer count on my support. And frankly I will work hard in twenty twelve, should nothing happen to aknowledge our comunity, to invest in another candidate for the presidency.
Now multiply my sentiment by thousands...and the Obama people have a REAL problem.
Butch1
· 11 months ago
I agree with you completely. I would never vote republican, as we've seen what they can do and what they think of us gays and lesbians but the democrats are on notice as far as I am concerned. A grass roots new progressive party may be the only thing that gets their attention and by then, it will be too late. So listen up, democratic party, be warned.
GaryBrush
· 11 months ago
Actually Warner in that video says that he does not believe that homosexuality is the same as incest and pedophilia.
Tom
· 11 months ago
Depending on the day, the interviewer and the audience, his beliefs change rapidly.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Let's review the tape on that one . . .
"I have been accused of equating gay partnerships with incest and pedophilia. Now of course as members of Saddleback Church, you know I believe no such thing. I never have. You've never once heard me in 30 years talk that way about that."
-- Rick Warren, December 21, 2008
"Two lovers living together is a not a marriage. Incest is not marriage. A domestic partnership or even a civil union is still not marriage."
-- Rick Warren, December 15, 2008 (six days earlier)
"I’m opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
Q: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
Yeah, he's now denying something he said directly in quite some detail, and then confirmed when asked about it.
GaryBrush
· 11 months ago
Actually the Pope is WORSE than Warren.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
But not gayer...I mean those pink prada slippers the pope wears?....come on Louise. Yes...the pope is much much worse. Agreed.
Tommy Marx
· 11 months ago
For those who say that we're making a mountain out of a molehill, may I suggest this: Why it matters. It's just my opinion, but Rick Warren and President-Elect Obama aside, my opinion matters just as much as anyone else's. Thanks!
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
I read your blog. Well said. Good job.
Tommy Marx
· 11 months ago
Thanks!
JohnInTexas
· 11 months ago
Wonder what Rev. Wright thinks...he got dumped for the fat white guy with the bigger congregation.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
lol. and warren should know better than to date someone who just broke up with the previous guy because of his size.
Hardy Haberman
· 11 months ago
I don't doubt that there is some pressure from the Obama camp as well as the rest of the blog-o-sphere. As a gay Christian, I find Warren misguided, but he is far from the biggest issue that faces our community. Personally, I think a nice effective version of ENDA, a hate crimes bill and some kind of guarantee of equal rights would do a heck of a lot more than not having Rick Warren speak.
I also believe people can change their minds. Look at how Tammy Faye Baker came around in her later years, so I won't give up hope on Warren just yet. Do I believe this is an epiphany for him? It is of a sort. He is finding out how many people are affected by his rhetoric and that is positive.
As far as a PR firm for a church. That doesn't surprise me in the least for a church of that size. I have helped with PR for my church (a predominately LGBT United Church of Christ congregation) and I know in today's world it is a necessary thing to have experts who know the media on hand when the media comes calling.
I sure hope we can keep this level of interest up once the administration has actually been sworn in. With a receptive ear in the White House who knows what we can do if we make enough noise?
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
The goals are not mutually exclusive. Letting them know our displeasure over Warren can only help with ENDA. Maybe it will even get Rick Warren to support ENDA! (Yeah right.) If Rick's going to have an epiphany, it will be in part because of this reaction, not in spite of it.
David in NY
· 11 months ago
Anybody notice that a large percentage of the FAQ's on Warren's web page deal with tithing? Strikes me that's his main interest, and anything that interferes with the tithes will be his biggest concern.
Webster
· 11 months ago
Of course. With these well-known televangelists and KJV-thumpers, it's all about Chri$t, stoking the fear of the ignorant (after all, if someone in this day and age believes that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, trust me, they're ignorant) and making as much money as they can. It's an American tradition almost as old as marriage. It's snake-oil. It's a con. And while Ricky might be trying to "make nice" now leading up to the invocation--he's not going to change, nor are his deluded followers. It would be funny, if he weren't making all that money on the backs of denying people their equal rights.
I have hope that the U.S. will grow up some day. I just don't expect to see it in my lifetime unfortunately.
Reality and knowledge
· 11 months ago
Oh, he's got quite a well-oiled money-making machine going on there, including with this Purpose Driven(R) brand of books and church curricula.
Reality and knowledge
· 11 months ago
his Purpose Driven(R) brand - sorry
mirth
· 11 months ago
Bush had Falwell and Dobson.
Obama has Warren.
The only preacherman difference in their bigotry and anti-American purpose and sneaky deceit and intellectual laziness and snakeoilness is their names.
Obama: NO!
Say it with me,
NO! NO! NO!
Pac
· 11 months ago
Well you have it partially right. Mr. Warren sort of has a problem since he wants to go mainstream and be the less harsh face of evangelism in the US. PE Obama doesn't have a problem. He has plenty of support.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
plenty of support but still lusting after the fringe mega-church vote.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
For some unfathomable reason other than he wants to be a new FDR. Let me tell you, for every portrait of Barack that is being taped to the wall, 2 or 3 are coming down right now in gay and progressive homes.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
Rev. Warren will also be the keynote speaker at the annual MLK Jr commemoration in Atlanta the day before the inauguration. (Yeah, I know: Why?)
"25 or 30 years ago, the barometer of human rights in the US were Black people. That is no longer true. The barometer for judging the character of people in regards to human rights is now those who consider themselves gay, homosexual, lesbian."
Sounds like one of those privileged gays with an inflated victim mentality trying co-opt the "real" civil rights struggle. Actually it's Bayard Rustin, co-organizer of the 1963 March on Washington, shortly before his death in 1987.
gbear
· 11 months ago
taking photos with known homos
They have to certify their celibacy before they get the photo op. Given the state of gay dating these days, lots of guys qualify. sigh.
Millicent
· 11 months ago
When the Obama gild has corroded after Americans realize nothing he or any of the Treasury giveaways to the uber-wealthy banker types has done much if any good, and they're just further into the hole or on the curb, smaller cynical Obama stunts like this one are going to take on more importance as part of the overall abrasion of his image.
Indigo
· 11 months ago
Rick Warren does not have a good name. Period.
smallhandff
· 11 months ago
So what's keeping the g & l marching ensemble from boycotting? Any news yet on that front?
Butch1
· 11 months ago
Lots of silence coming from that corner of our gay world.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Let me say, I tend to think the right answer is for them to march and to do some sort of very visible protest to Warren all through the (nationally televised) parade. Something that gets the message through without being offensive. That seems to me far better than a boycott, which is the same as silence at a time when we could be getting free national media . . . Go to work, people . . .
Butch1
· 11 months ago
Perhaps, as a marching band, they could do a routine where they spell out "Homophobe" or "Shame" or "Equal Rights" something that would grab their attention. ;-)
Jennifer
· 11 months ago
Something about liars that I know: a liar will run around to people known to both liar and lied about and systematically say things like: "So and so might say this or that to you, but it's not true". They are always the ones running around sticking chewing gum on the little holes.
I hope fatso has a lot of chewing gum.
JohnInTexas
· 11 months ago
Apparently it is more acceptable to take rights away so how about removing all the rights that marriage gives to those allowed to marry, and there are a bunch. Wonder how many would change their tunes about gay marriage then since it really has no affect on them to begin with. Hit them in the wallet and church will be taking a back seat you can bet on it. Just for good measure, throw in a tax credit for all those straight folks who take it up the ass regularly.
RainbowPhoenix
· 11 months ago
I admire the restraint of the men in those pictures. I that were me, the bigot would get an elbow to the stomach, although the flab would probably absorb most of the impact.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Yes....it's so odd. It's like the saying "hey, some of my friends are black"...I just don't want one of 'them' marrying my sister.....
Reality and knowledge
· 11 months ago
Rick Warren suddenly showing up YESTERDAY at the "Out of the Closet" thrift store in West Hollywood is genuinely funny to me. You can't make up stuff better than that!
Is he feeling maybe a teensy bit guilty about not having not cared one whit about AIDS until it was a heterosexual epidemic, too? And then he sanctimoniously helps mostly straight people with HIV/AIDS in Africa -- which is certainly a worthy thing to do -- but hasn't done diddlysquat about HIV/AIDS in the United States? Until, what, yesterday?
So, suddenly, yesterday, he's committed to helping everybody with HIV/AIDS, including people he thinks need to "repent"?
It's hilarious. Seriously. This guy is obviously not that bright (remember, he thinks dinosaurs and homo sapiens were contemporaries), and his PR advisers are probably not that astute, either. They face the daunting reality that none of them can get away from his damning record.
Is the purpose driving Rick Warren's life to be a discriminating, ignorant, homophobic, refined-carbohydrate-intemperate, hypocritical fool?
Reconciliation and penance are not going to occur through any single, simple, magic wand waving-ish gesture. There has to be true, profound understanding. Maybe Melissa Etheridge is helping him, or at least started him on the road to getting a clue. But I truly doubt Warren's really going to change his stripes any soon, and certainly not before January 20.
And shame, shame, shame on Obama for asking this very distasteful man to deliver the inauguration invocation. Obama should have known better.
Reality and knowledge
· 11 months ago
typos, sorry: > Etheridge...or at least has started him > change his stripes any time soon
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
FYI, you can edit your own comment instead of replying to it :) i do it all the time. but now it's too late.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Yeah..that whole visit to the gay store/shop was just plain strange and creepy.
KarenMrsLloydRichards
· 11 months ago
Out of the Closet Thrift Store. Where have we heard of that before?
Ding, ding, ding!
Palin's supposed wardrobe source (the Anchorage store) BEFORE Nieman-Marcus and Saks.
(Is this a franchise operation?)
lynchie
· 11 months ago
We don't actually know what he believes in. Much of the bullshit spewing from the mouths of the Falwells, Warrens, Grahams, Osteens and the like is to keep the money flowing in. The expand and spew the fear, the lies and the rhetoric to pander to the old pseudo christians who worship anything with a collar on backwards. These are the same people who want all the trappings of wealth in the visual of their church. The 17,000 people who attend his seminars and follow the words of this guy are missing something in their lives and they believe he can fill it. He is Jimmy Jones and every other cult hero who has come and gone and brain washed the minds of these people into believing that somehow the big head in the sky talks through them. It is bunk pure and simple. I think he is frightened to death of the Gay community because he can't control the group but he can squeeze more money out of his fundies by claiming they are taking over the world. If you believe in the teachings of Jesus tell me how is fear and homophobia are representative of anything Jesus apparently espoused.
Apphouse50
· 11 months ago
Imagine the wingnut mail he's getting!
I'm gonna pour myself a nice glass of wine and savor the thought.
Butch1
· 11 months ago
The only time I'm afraid of Xtians is when they go off to battle on one of their many crusades. As an atheist, and living in this country, I shouldn't have to kow-tow to all the religious rules that are invading our government all in the name of protecting the rights of christians. I'm tired of it and I want it to stop. I can live in peace along beside Xtians without any problems, I just wish they could do the same. Christo-phobic, no, I don't fear them, but I do fear a government hell bent one kissing their arses at every turn and moving in the direction of a Theocracy. When that happens, it will not be safe for gays, lesbians or any one else who differs from the party, religious line.
1billinnj2
· 11 months ago
rachael maddow is doing a great job also. she has been relentless. i know she will keep going with this sad situation. i hope everyone keeps the pressure up to get warren to withdraw from jan 20. good job everyone.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
I love me some Rachael Maddow. She is the ONLY person getting this story correct.
kemowery
· 11 months ago
Could we have a dramatic duh-dum-DAAAH audio sting added every time it's insinuated that Obama is somehow the mastermind behind Warren's opinions and actions?
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
It's silly, Obama has nothing to do with it. Some staffer screwed up big time and told him this would be a good idea. It's not anymore complicated than that.
fredndallas
· 11 months ago
You're kidding yourself. . .
ALL indications are that this came from the BO himself.
For reasons yet to be fully explored/exposed.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Perhaps...but I like to live the fantasy. :-)
RonNYC
· 11 months ago
So far, Mr. Warren seems deep into two sins, gluttony and bearing false witness. Here's an article from the Times: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2008/12/23/us/A... The article refers to his video where he claims that he never, NEVAH, said The Gays were like pedophiles. Who knew an obese man could run so fast?
RonNYC
· 11 months ago
One other thought just occurred to me: With Warren back pedaling fairly quickly (and we're yet to see just how far he'll go), Obama will be able to claim that this is what he was after all along; and who knows, maybe it is. The man is very smart (and I'm still glad he's going to the president; just not anywhere near as glad).
mauro7inf
· 11 months ago
Rick Warren is not the enemy.
The fact is that he represents one of the best parts of Evangelical Christianity in this country, and he's in a real conflict here between loving people and observing what he sees as the law of his religion. The religion is bigoted, but if you believe that the religion is the word of God, then what choice do you have? I think we're seeing a genuine attempt to be a good person from Warren; he's realized that his views are personally disrespectful to a great many people, and rather than stamping his foot and proclaiming holy fire against gays, he's making an effort to be more friendly. So I say again: Rick Warren is not the enemy. It's the Christian fundamentalist philosophy that is the enemy. I yet think that Warren will become an ally of the civil rights movement, if we pressure him enough by convincing that we are being personally disrespected rather than being "ideological" or partisan.
There are a lot of stupid people in the religious right. There are people for whom the sole criterion for voting is faith in their version of a deity. There are people who believe -- well, watch Jesus Camp and be really, really scared. But Rick Warren is a good person, and a smart person, despite being a devout Christian of a conservative persuasion. He's trying hard. If he manages to reform at least somewhat by the time he gives the Inauguration brachot, I'll support him.
RainbowPhoenix
· 11 months ago
If the religion is the problem, then why does Warren continue to viciously lie about us?
mirele
· 11 months ago
I sent the Rickster two e-mails today (pastorrick@saddleback.org). In one of them, I pointed out that although I was a former church attender, I did note that in the book of Revelation it says that ALL LIARS are going to the lake of fire.
Now, I don't believe that $#!+, but Warren does. Or at least he says he does. So, I asked him, how could he sit there and flat-out lie about the impact of Prop 8?
Of course I haven't heard back from him. But I did sign my name to the e-mails and put my street address. As I also explained to the Rickster, he doesn't scare me. I've been harassed by professionals ($cientologists) and he's just a piker by comparison.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Kudos...good for you. :-)
timncguy
· 11 months ago
give me a break. This same religion was used to justify slavery and he doesn't believe that anymore does he? It was used to justify segregation, he has dropped that hasn't he?. It was used to justify bans on inter-racial marriage, does he still believe that?
Or does he really still believe those religious views and has just learned to stop voicing them along with the stonings etc?
shell
· 11 months ago
Slavery is a good comparison. We keep hearing that the Bible says homosexuality is a SIN. (I still haven't figured out why it is the biggest sin there is. The Bible doesn't say that.)
Remember, the Bible hasn't changed since the 1950s, or even the 1850s. Slaves were OK in the Bible. What DID change was that the wingnuts' money was drying up. And suddenly: Whap! We aren't to pay attention to THAT anymore! (Much like mixing fibers, killing your disrespectful children, etc.)
Thus, it will come to pass for gays, too. I don't know how long it will take -- maybe 1 year. Maybe 100 years. But it WILL change. All it takes is the victims speaking up -- sometimes loudly. So far, so good. But look at all who try to stop gays from making a big deal out of Warren. It also takes a president (and/or Congress) to get onboard.
We shall see.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Yes, leviticus is the whackiest of books. Shell fish is an abomination too.....just like man to man sex. So who decided that we can now go to Red Lobster on Sunday and still go to heaven? But because of my birthing order...i am going to hell? Who made this decision. And why is Warren compelled in any way to agree with this decision.
Warren has no conflict...it's plain and simple ....the man is a homophobe. Period. And he is using his religion like a coward to hide behind it to shield him from the guilt of bigotry.
shell
· 11 months ago
This is sort of off-topic. How can so many Americans be so stupid? I am talking about those who really, REALLY think the Bible is the word of God -- everything in it. They say God is always right. Then how could God say some things at one time, and other things at other times? The only thing I have heard them say about all the child and food sins is that those are in the Old Testament, and Jesus came to tell us HIS way was the correct way. First of all, how could God (Jesus) say God (God) was wrong? Secondly, Jesus NEVER MENTIONED HOMOSEXUALS.
Don't any of these people ever question this? Are they all retarded? Yeah, I know, I always just say "YES!" too. But really!
mauro7inf
· 11 months ago
Jesus maybe never mentioned gays, but didn't Paul or someone, in Romans? I've never read anything in the New Testament, so I don't know, but I think I've heard Romans quoted in the context of homosexuality.
Also, Christianity has fairly strong answers to why Jesus could have such obvious differences with Yahweh. I don't know any of them, and I think that having three gods (and worshipping Jesus instead of Yahweh) goes directly against the text of the first of the Ten Commandments, but Christians have their convoluted explanations for why that's OK. I agree that it's off-topic, actually, because this is a theology point. Short answer: yes, completely retarded. Nobody who's smart interprets the entire Bible literally anymore. This includes Rick Warren.
shell
· 11 months ago
Oh yes! Paul mentioned gays several times. But Paul was, seriously, mentally ill. Paul was the one who said, ideally, NO ONE should have sex. He also said that IF you couldn't live up to that, implying that made you weak, you should get married. But make no mistake, the goal was to never have sex. And those who did were 2nd class citizens. And that is the sex these modern-day freaks worship.
In a message dated 12/24/2008 6:42:18 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, writes:
Jesus maybe never mentioned gays, but didn't Paul or someone, in Romans?
If you're going by Leviticus, you're not going to heaven or to hell; you're going to Sheol and that's that. There's no afterlife in the Bible. (The revision to the Bible, the New Testament, may be different on that regard, but I don't know anything about it.) If you're wicked, Yahweh will punish you eventually by killing you, striking you with plague, etc; if you're righteous, you'll have a long life. That's about it.
Except that the Torah is also a code of law, so if you commit a crime and are convicted by a court of law, you get stoned or burned or whatever the prescribed punishment is. And in the Bible, homosexuality is a capital crime like incest or bestiality, whereas eating shellfish is a private offense so long as you're not attempting to enter the Temple after having eaten it; according to Leviticus, you can generally just sac a goat or something and your uncleanliness goes away.
Why is Warren compelled to agree with the decision? Faith. It's kinda stupid, in my view, but there's this concept of faith, where you believe what your religion teaches (and it's not just the Bible). Warren is not a bad man; he just believes in a religion that believes bad things. I say this because he's really been trying, rather than issuing statements about how gays caused 9/11. I don't think you're really seeing what's going on here and are making generalizations about bigots. Rick Warren doesn't see being anti-gay as bigotry; he sees it as following his religion. Only now we're showing him that it actually hurts people, and he's not happy about hurting people because he's a good guy. That's why I'm optimistic that he'll turn around.
mauro7inf
· 11 months ago
Ah, the Bible. Ever read it? I'm about 2/3 through it, and it's an interesting book (but not a very good one, so don't read it if you're looking for literature). It's hardly taken literally anymore, and interpretations of it have changed even between the beginning and the end of its writing (I don't know ANYTHING about the New Testament; I'm just talking about the Tanach here). Hell, the theology is completely different between Numbers and Deuteronomy. People have tried to "harmonize" things, but the point is that not all religious people see the entire Bible as applicable to today as written. Orthodox Jews, for instance, DO pay attention to things like mixing fibers and eating ritually unclean foods, and they also have an entire body of Rabbinic law to observe, and even they don't sentence children to stoning (by the way, all that stoning stuff happened only after conviction in a court of law; that's why bearing false witness was such an awful thing to do). Christians especially, given their "new covenant", aren't bound to the laws stipulated in the Tanach (you could argue that this was historically in order to separate them from the Jews, but that's not important for the now), but that doesn't just invalidate the whole thing! And like it or not, homosexuality is a fairly big crime in the Torah; Sodom and Gomorrah are made into examples throughout the Prophets, as well. The Bible is a work of a people from about 2500-2900 years ago, and those people did not countenance that two men having sex with each other could possibly be a normal or healthy or good thing. It's not their main concern by far -- that concern was keeping out foreign gods -- but it's pretty clear that homosexuality is WRONG in the Bible, listed as one of many WRONG things (like incest and bestiality). It's not just ritually wrong, like sacrificing incorrectly or eating something unclean; it's morally wrong. That's what some interpreters of the Bible believe, anyway, and Warren's religion apparently follows some of these interpreters.
Warren doesn't have much of a choice here unless he bucks his religion, and that's a breach of faith by definition. I've read some Rabbinic responsa about homosexuality, and they express a similar sentiment: "we WANT to give gays full acceptance etc., but our hands are tied; the Torah says so-and-so!" (There was one interesting Conservative responsum about why it was OK to ignore that part of the Torah and give gays full equality in the Conservative movement, but that's a comment for another time.) The recent actions show that Warren is a good person who WANTS to be liked and respected by gays, and the more he sees that he's being a jackass personally to gay people, the more he'll try to be better about it, UNLIKE Falwell and Dobson and those guys. That's why I say keep the pressure up on Warren, and not in a mean way but in a way that clearly expresses why HE's wrong and whom HE's hurt, and by Inauguration, who knows but that Rick Warren may have changed somewhat for the better.
mauro7inf
· 11 months ago
Was it actually the same religion? Christianity isn't just one religion; it's a large number of different ones. And they change over time. It's not just the Bible. And if we keep up the pressure on Warren to change -- my point is that he's not particularly happy about being discriminatory, not that bigotry is OK -- maybe he'll lead his religion with it.
Jeffrey
· 11 months ago
There are plenty of Christian denominations (United Church of Christ, for one) that don't preach hatred toward us. So why has he embraced this one? I would say it is NOT just the religion that is bigoted. It is the person who CHOOSES that religion over any others. Last I looked, religion IS a choice, unlike being gay....
mauro7inf
· 11 months ago
Religion isn't really chosen that way... There's an authoritarian structure telling you what you can believe, and you don't really have a choice about doctrine and such. The guy's doing what he thinks is right, even though he's wrong. He's not trying to fight a war. He's just trying to be a good person according to his beliefs about his deity.
Religion is NOT a choice. If you believe something, then you believe it; if not, you don't. You can't just pick a religion that you don't believe in. (I say this as an atheist Jew, but that's a bit different from being a preacher.) Rick Warren probably didn't think about gayness when he was discovering what his beliefs were towards gods and their sons. And by the way, Christian denominations aren't just a choice of flavor, like choosing a church. It's a fairly big deal and if you don't believe the denomination's teachings (I use "religion" and "denomination" interchangeably here), you can't just choose to be a member (unless you're not actually religious and don't mind the dissonance, like me, but if you're religious, this holds).
BlueDotInTX
· 11 months ago
Keep up the good work, John. My humanity is non-negotiable.
hrh
· 11 months ago
Repurposed?!?!?! REPURPOSED?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Got 'em on the run, Greek lad.
The porcine Falwell-in-a-Hawaiian-shirt sure has bitten off more than he can chew this time. Delicious.
timncguy
· 11 months ago
have we discussed his views on whether gays should even be allowed to have sex at all?
In a recent interview Warren said all the gays that have come to him for counsel have expressed their desire to have multiple sexual partners. He said in the interview that he also wants to have sex with all good looking women he sees, but he controls his desires. He made no comment at that point about his opinion of gays who want to have a loving monogamous relationship.
Then today we find out that he thinks even if science proves that homosexuality is biologocal, gays still just should NOT HAVE SEX. I guess it's that same comparison to pedophilia thing. You know it's biological for them to want to have sex whith children and then just shouldn't do it. Same for gays I guess. Just don't do it.
I imagine tomorrow we will fnd out that he thinks gays shouldn't even masterbate because they are thinking of an opposite sex partner while they do it.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
i am capable of pure love, what about you?
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
His minestry does have some form of conversion therapy, from what I understand...I could be wrong. I thought I read that somewhere.
Yeah, that's great for your mental health.
warbler
· 11 months ago
If Warren is coming around it's because of the honey he gets from Obama, Etheridge and Andrew Sullivan, not because of the vinegar he'd find on this site. Don't congratulate yourselves, you've only done harm here.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
lol. if there's any honey leftover, offer it to the KKK. that leaves vinegar for the homos. but it's ok. we can make ketchup.
timncguy
· 11 months ago
Warren is not "coming around". His latest was that gays shouldn't even have sex, let alone marriage. He said even if homosexuality is PROVEN to be biological, gays should still not even have sex at all, period, nada, none, not all , nope none.
GaryBrush
· 11 months ago
Warren is saying that NO ONE should have sex outside of marriage including straight people. This is nothing new. That's what I was taught in Catholic school.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
another reason why they can never let us marry. it's not just about the children!
timncguy
· 11 months ago
No, that is not what Warren said. Not during that interview. He made no mention at all about heterosexual behavior. He wasn't even speaking about marriage. Just sex. And, the important part ofthe interview was his point that even if homosexuality is proven to be biological, it doesn't matter. It's still wrong. I guess it's that comparison to pedophilia again. You know pedophilia is biological too and we don't want them having sex.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Wake up, warbler. He is not coming around, not ever. He thinks he knows what God thinks and is on record as saying so. What is he going to do, say he had a vision? He will continue to preach Christian love, which means you get donuts and coffee, but can be fired from your job for being gay if you don't "repent."
postdamnit
· 11 months ago
No coffee, just water really.
davidinchelseama
· 11 months ago
A reporter needs to ask Obama if he feels that gay citizens' civil rights are a merely an issue of a legitimate difference of opinion. Or they should ask him if he feels that gay people being considered pedophiles is merely a legitimate difference of opinion.
So here are Obama's words: "What I've also said is that it is important for America to come together, even though we may have disagreements on certain social issues."
REALLY? People can legitimately disagree on whether or not gay people are akin to PEDOPHILES? They can disagree about whether or not ALL CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY should have the same civil rights?
And then there's this comment from Obama: "...what we have to do is to be able to create an atmosphere where we can disagree without being disagreeable and then focus on those things that we hold in common as Americans."
REALLY? It's possible to NOT be DISAGREEABLE while comparing gay couples to PEDOPHILES?
And it's possible to NOT be DISAGREEABLE while attempting to negate and/or take away gay citizens' civil rights?
timncguy
· 11 months ago
the more telling part in what Obama said there is that his plan is to FOCUS ON WHAT WE HAVE IN COMMON. And since we havenothing in common with Warren and his ilk on gay rights, I guess Obama won't be putting any FOCUS on any of those promises he made during the campaign.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
I for one, and happily have ZERO in common w/ someone like Warren. He is a sociapath, a liar, climber...and consumate business man opperating under the guise of a Christian. ...and lest we forget an anti-intellectual who does not believe in evolution. (as is evidence from his walnut sized brain)
coolcatdaddy
· 11 months ago
REALLY? People can legitimately disagree on whether or not gay people are akin to PEDOPHILES? They can disagree about whether or not ALL CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY should have the same civil rights?
That's the problem here. The Religious Right has framed LGBT issues, for decades, as a "cultural" issue - somehow, we're infringing on their right to freedom of speech and to worship as they please because a) we don't want to get discriminated against at work, b) we want the right to pursue our religious and spiritual beliefs in getting married, c) we want to be treated fairly under the law, and d) we want to be free of hate-mongering and physical violence because of who we are.
The Democrats have, for years, really let us down on this issue and Obama's brought it out in the open by looking at this as a "cultural" issue - it's a Human Rights issue, plain and simple.
The Democrats and Obama need to prove that they can call this what it is - bigotry and an imposing of religious beliefs on a minority. It's not a "difference of opinion". It's a Human Rights issue.
I won't settle for anything less before supporting Obama and the Democrats again.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
You hit the nail right on the head. I am sick of this issue being lumped in with roe v wade, and other 'social' issues. It is a basic human rights issue. Period. Kids get it. It's the adults that don't. We need a couple of older generations and their myopic hate filled thinking to die off before any change actually happens.
I guess I am a bit angry because I really thought Obama understood this being mixed race and his life experience. I feel very sadly that I was wrong.
davidinchelseama
· 11 months ago
Bingo. It's a HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE, period.
AdmNaismith
· 11 months ago
And when all the Inauguration hoopla is over, the pictures will be erased off of hard-drives and the anti-gay stuff will reappear on his website. Who, pray-tell, is falling for all of this?
Why did 'Out of the Closet' let him shoot there? they should have ran his ass out of the store with a wire coat-hanger.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Yep, they should've offered to let him in just as soon as "unrepentant" gays can be members of his church.
James
· 11 months ago
This invitation is incredibly disappointing, and no matter how much sturm und drang is employed by the backers of Prop 8 in attempting to get Warren’s invitation rescinded – it ain’t happenin’, folks.
Obama fucked up… and he knows it now, but to try to disinvite Warren at this point would be seen to those on the right that Obama is trying to reach as a capitulation to the “pedophiles.” [Sidebar: As a gay man I am interested in other gay MEN – not kids. Hell, for me men don’t become interesting until they’re in their 40’s. Besides, aren’t most pedophiles self-proclaimed heterosexuals?]
If Warren had any class he’d excuse himself from the gig so as not to be a distraction from the momentous and historic occasion this will be. But Warren is as much a publicity whore as… well, Kathy Griffin (no offense, but she’s said this of herself in the past I feel alright repeating it), so there is no chance Warren will graciously step aside.
Here’s how all of this will play out: * Obama, Warren and their minions will continue to say this invitation to a dialogue is an effort to “reach across” the political divide (which, of course, is complete bull shit, as this will only be seen by those on the right for the stunt that it is, and the right will continue to talk about Obama as a baby killer and gay lover); * We ‘gays’ will continue to beat out chests and denounce this invitation; we will write letters and blog ad infinitum; we will make signs and march in protest (because we love a parade); and we will make the argument that this is about civil rights to the same crowd that knows it and doesn’t care about our civil rights; and * The inaugural will come and go, and the only controversy on the day of the event will be about Michelle’s gown – did we like it or not. And on the day AFTER the swearing-in, the new administration will still have no openly gay cabinet members, DOMA will still be the law of the land, and military gays will still not ‘ask nor tell.’
So does that mean nothing is to be done? NO! Civil rights have never come from the politicians – either Congress or the Executive Branch – as they are too beholding to the voting public; civil rights have always come from the courts.
Therefore, all of our efforts need to focus on the highest courts of the land and the appointment of the justices to those courts that are fair-minded individuals not steeped in the religious bigotry of the simple-minded preachers who are out front yelling as loud as they can trying to distract us.
Sure, it would have been great to celebrate this historic inauguration with ‘hope’ and ‘change’ floating through the crowds. I never believed Obama would be the leader that would bring anything more than change to the courts. From Donny McClurkin to Jeremiah Wright to Rick Warren, Obama’s choice of preachers has always been problematic; however, I want to believe – and I choose to believe – that the justices Obama appoints to the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court will be the leaders we can really hang our hopes on.
So I’ll continue to blog and rant and rave about this appointment even though I know it is a done deal so that the message is clear: We’re here, we’re queer, and our hope is in the courts.
FunMe
· 11 months ago
The reality is, whether Warren appear or not, the main person who is to blame for causing so much hurt is ... OBAMA.
The President-elect, a STRAIGHT MALE, doesn't seem to get it. His decision to invite Warren was callous and insensitive.
Should Obama not disinvite him, he will have started just like the other bozo who said, he's a uniter not a divider. Obama has not only pissed off lots of gay folks but also straight people who are horrified that he would do something like that.
Party will definitely be over on January 20 if Obama doesn't dump Warren. And his message of "hope" will simply be a four letter word.
Silverlakejim
· 11 months ago
I have been reading up on the African-American political movement in the 75 years between Reconstruction and the modern Civil Rights movement starting just after the second world war. The are many parallels we could learn from:
* Over and over again African-American rights were traded or bargained away by politicians. This how reconstruction ended. Our rights were negotiable and considered "cultural issues" that could be debated and disagreed upon by well meaning people. Gee... isn't that similar to Obama's language about " disagreements on social issues" and his reaching out to Rick Warren?
* Look to Roosevelt administration and its treatment of African-Americans as a model of we need to watch out for. Nice sentiments, but very little action. Look to Roosevelt's "Black Cabinet" as an example of what can happen, or already has happened in my view, to us. Roosevelt put together a African-American group of advisors to assist him with African-American issues. He refused to actually meet or speak with his "Black Cabinet." They had very little policy influence. But, to the African-American community the "Black Cabinet" , looked significant, felt good, and they were thankful for the small crumbs thrown at them from the Roosevelt administration. No real substantive change, but symbolism that mollified our community for some time. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Clinton=Roosevelt. Obama=Roosevelt?
* Look to Truman. He did more then just lend moral support and noble specifying to the African-American equality movement. Truman's effort led to the integration of the armed forces. The end to segregation of the most conservative of our federal institutions directly led to the mindset that fought for an end of segregation in the rest of society. The end of DOMA is a key starting point. Obama can do this with his signature. Is Obama=Roosevelt? Obama=Truman?
* African-Americans weren't taken seriously until we took ourselves and our rights seriously and stopped responding to symbolism and tokenism instead of real action and change. It was the "aggressive negroes" as Southern whites used to call them, who took to the streets and took direct action who secured the rights for us in the 50's and 60's. Are we going to settle for "the best we can get given the circumstances" as African -Americans did under the Liberal Roosevelt administration? Or are we going to fight for full integration, including the end to marriage segregation, as did African-Americans did in the 50's and 60's? I think the GBLT community is in the midst of making that choice right about now.
Akaison
· 11 months ago
As they say, the Civil Rights Movement happened because if they did not conceed to Martin Luther King, they knew the Black Panthers and Malcolm X were waiting in the wings. The choice was not between do nothing and a subservient minority. It was between do nothing and greater strife.
Black/White Rose
· 11 months ago
So true! A certain level of militancy and menace was required for blacks to be taken seriously. I think the same is true today in the case of gays. I believe we should continue to have our rabble rousing demos at churches and government buildings, plus I think we should back it up with huge boycotts of the offending organization's investments, as in the case with the Mormon Church its support of Prop 8.
Akaison
· 11 months ago
Oh, and Obama = before Roosovelt. Not even Roosovelt.
scottinsf
· 11 months ago
Thank you for your observations on this. I'm very interested in the black gay perspective on these issues, as varied as even those are bound to be.
Black/White Rose
· 11 months ago
As one who is both white and black and gay and who lived through a lot of the time period you cite, I could not agree more. I believe the parallels between then and now and the black and gay struggles for civil rights are many. You are most certainly on the right path with this approach.
And it would have been that difficult to find an open-minded Pastor to give a speech at Obama's inaugural?
Really?
Someone who may not agree with the idea of gay marriage is okay.
Someone who openly preaches hate and divisiveness and equates my sexual orientation with that of a pedophile is unacceptable.
Team Christophobe
· 11 months ago
May I suggest that you broaden your criticism a bit? Warren doesn't confine himself to condemning gays--we atheists and prochoice straight females come in for quite a bit of abuse, as does anyone of another religion and whatever foreign leader he thinks ought to be assassinated.
"....he represents one of the best parts of Evangelical Christianity in this country." Best evangelical christian--now there's an oxymoron for ya.
dula
· 11 months ago
Warren has equated a woman's right to choose with the Holocaust. We would love it if women everywhere protested him too.
RIPWAMU
· 11 months ago
Thank you for bring this up. He certainly holds tightly to that Southern Baptist upbringing. "If you don't believe as I then you are nothing and anti-Christ" attitudes have overrun this country.
foxy
· 11 months ago
Good will is free, and if it gets Rick Warren to publicly change his opinion then his congregation will take that as an example.
What's with the attitude where nothing can ever be good, and if it is good, then it's not good enough so you reject it. In a confusing and dirty campaign, 48% of Californians still side with the gay community, and people conclude that the vast majority is prejudiced against the gay community. In fact, nearly half of the straight community came out to support gay rights, which is more than ever before. Any satisfaction in that, nope gonna worry about the people who don't yet support you. Then Rick Warren publicly says some things that are good for the gay rights movement, like his belief that "every loving relationship should have equal protection". You've got to consider that this guy has sold over 20 million books. He's got a huge influence in the evangelical community. If open arms from the liberal side means he throws his support behind federal fully equal civil unions that would shatter the unity of the crowd that would most vehemently oppose truly equal civil unions, giving it a good chance of passing. If making progress towards equality is really of interest to you, this is a good thing. Is it so painful to be proven wrong that you can't extend anyone the benefit of the doubt?
I feel that the issue of gay rights has stagnated for way too long, and it's finally getting the attention it deserves. Frankly, I find that exciting. If you want every homophobe to admit they were wrong and beg for forgiveness, then you're never going to be happy. If that's what you're waiting for, then you might as well start being pre-disappointed. I could see some other things making my day in the next couple years though. I think that the one group who really should be pre-disappointed would be the white supremacists who voted for Obama in the hopes that his election would spark a race war.
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Methinks you've been duped by Rev. Rick's carefully parsed words. If you listen carefully to what he says, nowhere does he say he is for civil unions in any form. He says he is for full equal rights to name anyone (even a total stranger) as your life and health insurance beneficiary as long as you're willing to pay for it, and that none of this is an issue in California because there is a strong civil union law. Translation: I do not support civil unions where we can muster a political majority to defeat them, but I know that's not possible in California.
And what makes you say the criticism of Rev. Rick is equivalent to not being thankful for those who supported us? We love them What does criticism of Warren have to do with them?
tlsintx
· 11 months ago
"repurposed"!
aaaaaahahahahahahaha...we got your repurposed right here. Is that the title of his upcoming tome? The Repurposed Bigot?
Ricky's religious views will not trump my civil rights. that's it.
timncguy
· 11 months ago
OK, I've seen a number of comments claiming that it is just gay marriage that Warren objects to. But, other than that he supports gay rights. So, does anyone know what Warren's position is on these:
Civil Unions with full state and federal benefits that would require the repeal of DOMA Repeal of DADT Gay Adoption ENDA Including sexual orientation and gender identity in civil rights laws Including sexual orientation and gender identity in Hate Crimes laws
Anybody know since they keep claiming it's only gay marriage Warren opposes?
Tom
· 11 months ago
you should read his beliefnet interview where he says gay rights are not civil rights, which I think covers your entire list.
rustedart
· 11 months ago
They may be running scared, but were running in circles until we can get organized and on the same page. We lost the Prop 8 Battle (so far) , "Call in Gay" day was lack luster (I found out as I was leaving work the night before), and all I keep reading on the blogs and emails I receive is vicious divisive hate from our own. How are we going to change anything when what is coming out of our mouths is not much better than Warrens?
tlsintx
· 11 months ago
we're changing the way we've always kept quiet in the past.
all that is coming out of our mouths is a perfectly legitimate demand for equality...that's only bad to a homophobe.
renegademom
· 11 months ago
I disagree. As a lesbian, the comments I see have a very decidedly male slant, and they are not pleasant, although they are legitimate. The nastiness I have seen here makes me very sad. I came out in 1978, at the age of 24. At that time, women were having their children taken away in divorces if their lesbianism came out. It was only 9 years post-Stonewall. Gay pride parades were just catching on, and coming out to families was VERY dicey. I watched Reagan ignore AIDS, went to scores of funerals/memorials for beloved friends and family, was disowned by my family several times. I was spit on, cursed at, and a whole bunch of other shit. I marched on Washington in 1979 (euphoric, powerful), 1988 (the height of the plague), and 1993 (the advent of cocktails, and renewed energy).
When I first came out, gay men and lesbians were ENEMIES.
Since that time, I have adopted three children as a lesbian, had domestic partner benefits, watched my Irish-Catholic family embrace both me and my african-american children, seen lgbt hate crimes passed, and witnessed both marriage and civil unions legalized in several states.
This is all in 30 years.
We are winning, and we will win.
I am, however, disturbed by the tone of the comments I read hear. Fat bashing, mom-bashing (me), litmus tests for everyone.....
I still have my Act-Up tee, and believe in speaking up loudly about issues. I don't think that the kind of vitriol that I have read here works.
Eyes on the prize, please.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
you've read all the comments and you come away with fat-bashing and mom-bashing? are you reading the same thing i'm reading? not to be provocative, but what IS the proper response to seeing Rick Warren on the inaugural stage?
btw, some of the fat-bashing is what they call a "rhetorical device" to underscore hypocrisy (viz. gluttony is one of the bible's 7 deadly sins -- you know, the bible that the bigots clobber us with -- and rick warren says gays should resist the temptation to have sex forever -- get it?)
no but seriously, what is the proper response to being officially declared 2nd class perverts from atop the inaugural platform?
renegademom
· 11 months ago
What I've seen in the comments ( and yes, I've read most of them) is hate. Hate doesn't work. The right wing has hated us forever, and it hasn't worked. It won't work for us either. That's all. We each get to determine our own response to Warren being asked to give an invocation. My response is disappointment. I also choose compassion. For me, for you, and for Rick Warren. Radical compassion for every living being. Not hate. And, I've been an activist for most of my life.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
i don't think you can assume that anger is hate. hate would be saying rick warren should be miserable for the rest of his life. i don't hear that at all. actually, that's what he is saying we should be.
and still i'd honestly like to know what the proper expression of anger would be, given that we will be perverts and 2nd class americans in the eyes of the nation's pre-eminent preacher on Jan 20 in front of a billion observers. disappointment is not going to work for most of us.
renegademom
· 11 months ago
"i don't think you can assume that anger is hate". Point well taken. I can't answer your question about the proper expression of anger. I guess I was trying to focus on moving forward. If I was angry, I'd take some time, write a post at change.gov, and volunteer for my local lgbt group. I'm sorry I don't have a better answer.
And, as I said, I am disappointed, not angry. I still believe that Obama is going to do what he said he would: work to repeal DOMA, and end DADT. Also, I won't feel like a pervert or a second class American on January 20th. I want ( in addition to being able to make it legal if and when I fall in love again ) my children to have a world to grow up into. I don't want my sons being drafted or going to war. I want them to be able to be who they ARE (and my 13 year-old currently identifies as bisexual, and is OUT in middle school with no repercussions). I want them to go to college, I want them to have health care. I want those things for ALL of us. And, I want us to be able to get married. And it will happen.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
I hear that, as they used to say :)
renegademom
· 11 months ago
holiday smoochies.
mirth
· 11 months ago
Good comment, Steve.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Mr. Warren has been preaching this hate the sin love the sinner garbage which only results in more gay bashing and bigotry.
We are finally fighting back, and you say keep quiet and live with it? Give me a break. I wonder if you have the same compasion for say David Duke? He seems like a nice enough guy, goes to church, obeys the laws. But he is part of the KKK. Should we listen to his garbage or should we stand up and say enough!
Obama has mistakingly given Warren a platform on a most solemn occasion, and I personally garnered over ten grand for the man to get him in the white house hoping for change. I was with Obama from day one.
I am entitled to be a bit pissed when Mr. Obama then lends credibility to a professed Bigot on the most solemn of occasions such as the invocation. Warren is to be pittied for his ignorance. He does not speak for me. From a psychological standpoint the man has sociopathic tendancies.
You should look at some of his interviews...they will make your head spin. I for one will not give up on this topic. Barack made, or a lower level person, made a grave error with this, and I want some answers.
Meet with Warren after, see what he has to say, whatever....but not at an inaguration for a man that is suppossed to represent change.
renegademom
· 11 months ago
we are FINALLY fighting back? I've been fighting back for 30 years.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Good! I honor you in that fight. I think what I meant is that modern comunication allows more people to get involved and be heard.
timncguy
· 11 months ago
can you give an example of "mom bashing". I haven't seen anything like that.
mirth
· 11 months ago
Nor have I, Tim, not even once. And I read all of the threads.
renegademom
· 11 months ago
I posted something a few days ago, and in my post I said something about maybe I was too tired to be really angry about the Warren pick. Then I said I was leaving the thread to take care of my kids, and someone replied something to the effect that I was probably too "tired" and that I SHOULD go take care of my kids if I was too tired to care about gay rights. I've been a dyke for 30 years, marching, speaking out, blah blah blah....my feelings were hurt, and I felt like this blog is only for GWFs. I felt like they said, yeah, go, be a mom, because you're sure not GAY.
renegademom
· 11 months ago
oopss....I meant GWM. I don't feel welcome here as a lesbian and a mother. This is a boy's site.
monitor
· 11 months ago
Then you will be happier somewhere else.
sitemonitor
woodnthrifty
· 11 months ago
I see only one opinion is welcome here! Renegademom is right on and this vitriol against Warren (I am agnostic and don't like especially any preachers) and Obama is alienating this heterosexual who is very much for gay rights. Try to see where we are coming from.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
i'm sorry but your support for gay rights is not believable after what you wrote just above. a true supporter, whether gay or straight, would share some of the anger expressed here. instead you seem to be expressing the gag reflex that you mentioned above. i am all too familiar with this weak, lazy-ass faux-liberal mentality. it is anything but supportive.
RIPWAMU
· 11 months ago
I am a straight woman who has been following this site for several months. I don't agree that this blog is only for GWM. Besides, this is a time for unity, not divisiveness. You cannot just fight for your own personal rights, you must fight for the rights of the entire GLBT community. Stop being catty and bringing up shit from 30 years ago and perhaps you won't feel so alienated. People have moved on and are trying to move even further. There have been huge strides made in the last 30 years, but there is a long way to go. As a mother, you should want more for your children. As for the fat-bashing, perhaps that is not the right tantic. It is juvenile and this is a very adult fight. How about using the word hypocrite? If you wish to be respected as a community/group, then it is important to not use another group/communities identifier as a negative comment (obese people). It doesn't matter to me if he weighs 1 pound or 1000, it is about what is on his inside that is the point.
woodnthrifty
· 11 months ago
See! You don't get it. I am very sincere. I used to be a DFACs worker and unknowingly worked with lots of gays. When I found out they were gay, it didn't matter. I would never have voted to abolish gay marriage. Recently, I chose a male gay couple for tenants that had adopted a baby.(I was prejudiced for them cause i heard gays are neater than straight guys.
Don't abandon Obama cause of that dip shit Warren.......most preachers feel the same as Warren but don't have the guts to say it out loud. Warren's speaking out etc. opened the dialog.
With all the gay haters don't dismiss us lazy ass, faux liberals cause we vote for your causes. Lighten up, please...
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
i'll lighten up after i stop gagging.
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
Yeah, I noticed that you talked about lesbians having their children taken away from them THIRTY YEARS AGO but didn't mention that gay men are STILL having their kids taken away from them.
And YOU complain that WE are anti-lesbian and anti-mother.
It sounds to me that you are lesbo-centric and mother-centric and that you have an issue with gay men and fathers.
I think you're still living in the 70's when, according to you, lesbians and gay men hated each other. Well it's a whole new millenium and most of us get along now and most lesbians who come to this site like it.
You should find another place to hang out if you dislike AmericaBlog and its readers so much.
tlsintx
· 11 months ago
i disagree and i'm a lesbian with children. even if you're tired, why tell others to stop trying?
Tom
· 11 months ago
I was one of the people who responded to you the other day. You criticized us for continuing the fight, the same fight you say you are now too tired to take part in.
I pointed out we cannot adopt in all states in the US, so just because you have your kids does not mean we have to stop fighting for others to have theirs. You come across as very selfish and self centered. This fight isn't about you, it's about all GLBT people. The fact that you started a thread just about you again is telling.
woodnthrifty
· 11 months ago
I am a liberal straight woman and I agree. The tone here doesn't make me like the gays here. I am for gay rights and I don't care if they call it marriage. However, these religious people feel so strongly about it that it would be political suicide to be for gay marriage. What's in a word.
I do not identify or understand homosexuality. The tv shows are helping me and I am now used to seeing men kiss etc. Six Feet Under show and now the tv people are coming out. Just give straight people a chance.......we don't really understand. I live and let live. I didn't want to see Brokeback Mountain cause I am not interested in nor can I identify with gay love or love between an old man and a young woman.
My point is it doesn't work to shove it down my throat.........I have a strong gag reflex.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 11 months ago
you are actually either not liberal at all, or intellectually lazy. it is not hard at all to find out "what's in a word" if you are interested. the answer is all over the comment boards here for the past week.
did it ever occur to you that gays have to get used to having hetero sex "shoved down our throat"? not just old and young heteros but every sort of woman and every sort of man in every sort of movie, song, book, play, etc. take it from me, you CAN get over that gag reflex if you want to.
but thanks for the fake liberal schtick. love how you sanitized the pedophilia thing to an old-man young-woman thing. funny.
dula
· 11 months ago
I haven't heard any mom bashing. Fat bashing, perhaps but only for hypocrites like Warren.
ShirleyGoodnessanMercy
· 11 months ago
Tell Rahm Emanuel what Rick Warren says about Jews (going to hell) and Rick Warren's invitation to speak at the Inauguration will be withdrawn immediately. Quit worrying about the homophobia. Focus on the anti-Semitism if you want action.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
yes...I agree extract the gay marriage issue completely and you have someone who does not belong on that stage....seriously.
Good idea. I am going to find that quote and send it to Emanuals email.
timncguy
· 11 months ago
Well this is getting more interesting all the time.
We have been being told since this erupted not to worry because the Rev Lowrey will be giving the benediction at the inauguration and he supports gay rights, implying the he supports gay marriage.
Well Rev Lowrey was just interviewed on MSNBC by David Schuster. And, in the middle of the interview he pointed out that he has NEVER SAID that he supports gay marriage. He supports civil unions. He supports civil rights for gays, but NOT GAY MARRIAGE.
Throughout this we have also been told by some that the only issue Warren has with gays is marriage.
So now, tell me the difference between Warren and Lowrey since it has come to light that even Lowrey doesn't support gay marriage.
Is it that Warren doesn't actually support any rights for gays? Or, is it just a difference in "tone" that Lowrey wouldn't use the incest and pedophile comparison, but that he and Warren otherwise agree?
Tom
· 11 months ago
That's pretty pathetic. Did we really expect better? I didn't
ChrisSF
· 11 months ago
Wow. Just wow. This is a vetting failure by the Obama people of McCain-Palin proportions. John, if you're listening, this deserves its own thread.
scottinsf
· 11 months ago
Well that's a disappointment. Nonetheless, there is very little comparison between Lowery and Warren. They are not at all in the same league.
TampaZeke
· 11 months ago
Lowrey's stated position is disappointing but there are MANY differences between him and Rick Warren when it comes to gay issues.
Here are just a few:
- Rick Warren publicly declared on his website that "unrepentant homosexuals" were not welcome to join his church. Rev. Lowrey lead a commission to challenge the Methodist church to fully open their doors to the full spiritual inclusion of GLBT people.
- Rick Warren supported Prop 8. Lowery is against ANY and ALL laws to deny rights to gays or to make gay marriage illegal.
- Rick Warren has made COUNTLESS anti-gay statements INCLUDING the ones where he equated gay marriage with pedophilia/incest/polygamy. Lowery has never and would never say anything homophobic.
- Rick Warren has NO record of being a civil rights leader for ANYONE. Lowery has been a civil rights leader for African-Americans, GLBT people and others for over fifty years.
The list goes on and on.
Rob Mule
· 11 months ago
"Running in circles" might help Rick lose some blubber...
foxy
· 11 months ago
..I beg you be persuaded that no one would be more zealous than myself to establish effectual barriers against the horrors of spiritual tyranny, and every species of religious persecution. [George Washington, to United Baptists Churches of Virginia]
Mau
· 11 months ago
There are 7 deadly sins listed by the Catholic church. The second deadly sin is gluttony. None of these sins involve gays. So, with Pastor warren being way larger than most Americans and obviously a great believer in heaping helpings of food, why is he not more of a sinner than a slim gay man who has not committed any of the 7 dealiest sins?
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
I know, I have been saying this too. He is glutonous. I am interested to see how he lives...his house, cars etc. Just curious.
IAmATVJunkie
· 11 months ago
Rick didn't have to go all the way to WeHo, he could have gone to the Out of the Closet store in Long Beach, at least a half hour closer to the Saddleback BigotDome.
Probably afraid he'll run into someone he knows close to home. Wouldn't want the neighbors talking.
davidinchelseama
· 11 months ago
Joel Osteen, another tv preacher who wants to come off as more tolerant and moderate, is far from it.
He's on Larry King RIGHT NOW, and Larry just asked him if he thinks marriage is a civil right: "Do you think it's a civil right? Do people have the right to marry whom they wish to marry?"
Osteen responds that he thinks anybody should be able to marry. So, Larry says, "But not gays?"
His answer, "I just don't think that's God's best. No, I don't think that's good." So much for him just saying in the previous sentence that anybody should be able to marry. What a scumball.
King then asks him if he thinks being gay is a choice, and of course the idiot says "Yes."
I am SO sick of these jerks.
KISSman
· 11 months ago
Yeah, they're both jerks, but what I think might be the difference is that Warren is a big anti-gay marriage backer and Osteen might just be a guy with an opinion (although I do say that without certainty). If that is the case though, that would be a big difference between them.
It's one thing for someone to have an opinion about something, but it's another thing when someone actively tries to impede people's civil rights due to their twisted views and ignorance. That's what irks me about Warren and why I'm totally against him being invited to do this prayer thing for Obama.
dula
· 11 months ago
Exactly! Give me my Rights and you can have any opinion you want to have.
davidinchelseama
· 11 months ago
James stated: "Sure, it would have been great to celebrate this historic inauguration with ‘hope’ and ‘change’ floating through the crowds. I never believed Obama would be the leader that would bring anything more than change to the courts. From Donny McClurkin to Jeremiah Wright to Rick Warren, Obama’s choice of preachers has always been problematic; however, I want to believe – and I choose to believe – that the justices Obama appoints to the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court will be the leaders we can really hang our hopes on."
Exactly. The bottom line ultimately is who Obama puts on the Supreme Court. We had NO CHANCE AT ALL with McCain or, god forbid, Palin, picking the next one or two Supreme Court justices. Now we have a chance to stave of a generation or more of conservative court bullshit, from lower federal courts, all the way up to the Supreme Court.
postdamnit
· 11 months ago
Have to agree with you on this one.
dula
· 11 months ago
It's good to have hope, but all his appointments thus far have been to the Center-Right. Obama appears too intimidated by the Right to put Progressives anywhere near him.
Anthony Look
· 11 months ago
Mike Rogers on Hard ball was brilliant. Melissa Ethridge, Obama and Biden are a traitors. The difference is in capitulating without qualifying past indiscretions. Warren must be made to retract his statements or decline the invitation. Obama apparently is too proud to admit a mistake as much as Bush is. The Rev. Rivers, and Sharpton and most of the black religious leadership are just pathetic clones of the same cloth. Christian conservatives be they black or white are not voting for the interests of the gay community; indeed, they inherently and regligiously vote against our interests. It is becoming more evident that while the gay community has been an ardent support of black Democrats in local, state and federal elections; this has to change. Gay support of black candidate must be more readily discerned; don't give your votes away to an enemy of your community. They will come back and do things like choose a gay racist unapologetic pastor to participate in their inaguration. Watch as more black preachers speak in the same voice as Warren. The black vote in California was primarily responsible for the success of Prop 8. They must be seen as much a detractor of gay community rights as are other conservative religious voters. Talk about running around in circles; the gay community must organize against all factions of the conservative right; and no longer afford the black community a free ride with our votes.
scottinsf
· 11 months ago
Shut up. Your sweeping generalizations are pathetic. There are unenlightened people of every stripe. You bring up black politicians. Explain why it doesn't matter to you that Deval Patrick and David Patterson support marriage equality. Gee, how many black governors don't? How many white governors? Do you consider the fact that the NAACP fighting for us in front of the California Supreme Court insignificant? Pull your head out and knock off the generalizations.
shell
· 11 months ago
Are you yet another Mormon, attempting (desperately) to change the subject?
Truth: More Mormons (from out of state) fought FOR Prop 8 than blacks, in state. And let's not forget the Catholic bigots. There is blame to go around to a lot of sides, but to single out the blacks is just RACIST.
Now, go preach your bigotry elsewhere.
dula
· 11 months ago
Sharpton, though, is on record in support of full marriage equality for Gays...the last I heard anyway.
astrodem
· 11 months ago
You guys are doing great work at AmericaBlog. I wanted to call you attention to my website and petition at TurnBackHate.com. I'm asking people to join me in sending a message that ordinary Americans reject Pastor Warren's hate speech by turning our backs on Warren during the inauguration. Please come sign the petition!
homogenius
· 11 months ago
When is someone going to cover this?
Rick Warren is a lifelong Southern Baptist. His father was a Southern Baptist preacher. Rick went to a Southern Baptist college and seminary. Saddleback Church has been, since its founding, belonged to the Southern Baptist Convention.
For the record, people: Southern Baptist = Anti-gay. PERIOD.
Rick Warren doesn't have a choice, even if he wanted one (which he doesn't). If he so much as tried to be lenient towards gays, he would get kicked out of the SBC. Any Southern Baptist church that is less than hateful and exclusionary to LGBT people gets kicked out.
This is not hard. Warren is a hateful bigot. He will always be a hateful bigot. Obama and Etheridge are fools to give him the time of day.
The entire reason for the Southern Baptist Church is to support slavery. I have Baptist relatives that still use the N-word. That's it. If Obama wants to suck up to them on his own account, great! But he doesn't speak for us. They will never be our friends.
tlsintx
· 11 months ago
that's all these mega-churchers are these days...repurposed Southern Baptists...or as the great Molly Ivins called them...Shiite Baptists.
Rick Warren keeps mentioning Leviticus in his media interviews as proof that gays are evil. Yet he keeps conspicuously skipping the next sentence "They shall be put to death. Their blood is upon them". I wish a reporter would ask Rick Warren if he believes the sentence "If a man lies with a man, it is an abomination", why does he (or doesn't he) believe the next sentence about the death penalty. It is an obvious and critical question, but the goddamn media idiots keep ignoring the elephant in the room.
cheesemonster
· 11 months ago
I think the gay mecca of the West Coast -- indeed of America -- is still the Castro in San Francisco.
West Hollywood might be in second place.
dula
· 11 months ago
Many are going to great lengths to read into Obamas's reasoning for picking Warren as though he were some prophet sent to teach us all about unity...and that only he can comprehend the profound strategy to bring us all together. It's sort of like when the Bushies all said George was a God-fearing man and therefore would only do what was best for the land...if a Christian does it it must be good. For all his supposed political astuteness, Obama has failed to realize one thing. The Evangelicals don't need a reaching out right now. The Bush Administration has been pandering to them for 8 solid years. Their morale is really high at this moment. It is the Progressives who have been put through hell these last 8 years. They are the ones who need to feel included. They are the ones who deserve the outstretched hand from our President Elect. Sadly, the mighty Enlightened One has pushed them outside his circle of light.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Perfectly stated.
brian
· 11 months ago
" These people hate us. They consider us sub-human. "
Seems to me you all feel the same way about the evangelicals.
NoFriendofMine
· 11 months ago
Absolutely, Brian - avid readers of this sight detest anybody not working to advance gay civil rights.
I'm thinking the word HYPOCRITE ... that's what comes to mind!
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
We can multi task my friend. I am sure if you and I sat down w/ a cup of coffee and chatted you would feel differently.
Brian
· 11 months ago
I am all for gay rights, and I support what you are doing. All I'm saying is that the tone of the debate, and the personal attacks on Warren in particular, are counterproductive at best and hateful at worst.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
I understand what you are saying. Yes, you atract more flies with Honey. I get it. However, we need to rattle the cages sometimes to be heard, instead of thought of as a 'dust up' that will quell. Only when they realize that we are not going away, and that their actions create reactions do things change.
As John Adam's said. I will never keep quiet, never.
I still Love B.H.O. Don't worry...I am just trying to get his attention to prevent this type of stuff from happening in the first place. And it's working. Tammy Baldwin has been called upon to engage in this conversation by the Obama camp. It's all good.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
No, no we don't. Remember, when evangelicals win, we lose. When we win, they still win because they are covered by the separation of church and state. The evangelicals started to blur the lines of church and state, and they started the hate.
Don't blame the rape victim for wearing a short skirt. It's not US and THEM. For god sake, I was raised in a Catholic family, went to catholic grade school and college....hit puberty and realized I was different. Tried to supress it, that of course is a crazy thing to do.
Go through all of this, only to find out I am not welcomed back in the Church?
How is any of this intollerance on our part. We are simply reacting to injustice.
NoFriendofMine
· 11 months ago
Rick Warren is NOT spooked; he is just following direction from BO's camp.
The (non-gay) Christians far outnumber gays in America - don't count on winning your good fight - not anytime soon!
Merry Christmas ~
Wesinoregon
· 11 months ago
And Ghandi replied, "Oh, I don't reject your Christ. I love your Christ. It's just that so many of you Christians are so unlike your Christ."
aussiebrat
· 11 months ago
well, its like shutting the barn door after the horse has bolted, LOL sheeeesh, bright side is it has given the gay community some good publicity for their cause, what action they are willing to take with this is totally up to them
ctb
· 11 months ago
FWIW, my 2 cents: I get that there are a great number of people whose feelings are truly hurt because of the Warren pick, but 1 thing I realized the other day, while listening to David Bender on Air America, is that a lot of the outcry seems very similar to the way many people react to the idea of gay marriage - 1st there is a strong negative EMOTIONAL reaction, then rationalization begins. The idea comes from listening to interviews w/ Drew Westen about his book 'The Political Brain"(which I intend to read ASAP)
Another thing I realized is that Obama has invited a man who has preached AGAINST him & a great deal of what he stands for(liberal ideals) to come before our nation & 'bless' him - & I think that's brilliant.
Mark in Florida
· 11 months ago
Yes, but differing w/ Obama on foriegn policy or even abortion rights is NOT the same as this. It is quite different. And that is the conversation we need to have. Civil rights cannot be lumped in with all of this other stuff as just 'disagreements'. They are not. Rights simply are. I no more chose this, than I chose my blue eyes. And I am sick and tired of sitting back and taking it.
All Comments
She talks about how Warren regrets his choice of words but this is the standard “MO” for these right wing nut bags. They spew hateful remarks and when the heat is turned on they either proclaim it was taken out of context or that they misspoke. No. The truth comes out first and the lies try to cover-up the truth. Pastor Warren truly hates gays. In my heart I believe this. And if you think that he doesn’t because he is helping Africa with their AIDS crisis I want to remind you that AIDS in Africa is primarily a straight disease. Why not work with gay AIDS victims here in this country. Thousands need support, love, and medical care – especially when state’s are cutting budgets. Yet Warren offers nothing. And if you are gay, you can’t seek spiritual guidance and membership in his church because you are banned from joining if you are a “practicing” homosexual. He likens homosexuality to incest, pedophilia, and bestiality. He lied during Prop 8 by saying free speech of pastor’s will be taken away if it passes. That teachers will indoctrinate our young, impressionable children. He’s not a gay hater is he Melissa? Appeasement no longer works.
Usually, the first words spoken in anger are the one's the person actually thinks and feels. Once, they realize that their words are being questioned, they back pedal and try to soften them. I always trust my judgment of a person's intentions by what they first say, it is either their truthful feelings or if they say, " The Iraqi war wasn't about oil", then you know it was. each one is a lie.
He never apologized to anyone else and he will never change his views. He is an anti-gay bigot, I don't care if he was sociable with Melissa Ethridge, or some naive homo in a west hollowood thrift shop. HE IS AN ANTI-GAY BIGOT, PERIOD. His church prohibits gays from membership, he equates gay relationships with pedophilia and incest, is that okay with you Melissa, REALLY!?!
Perhaps you should go back into the closet.
obviously one with much too much money....poor idiot sheep, going broke so fat guy can ride the wave of the New Christian Right...
Suggestions?
I still can't believe that Obama chose this guy. Now, I'm beginning to wonder about Mr. Obama.
Now, now never speak ill of the outed fundy pastor. The fundy pastor is a bottom. Good.
gaydar of several friends of ours. Add to that the fact that your average
rentboy will tell you that clergy, as well as pro athletes, are some of
their most regular "johns". The busiest week ever for the Dallas rentboys
was in the summer of 2001 when the Southern Baptist Convention was in town.
The 2nd busiest week was when the Conference of Catholic Bishops was here.
The boys had to call in reinforcements from Austin and Houston. One of our
buddies said he was just plum tuckered out by Saturday that week. Anyway,
Warren...methinks the lady doth protest too much.
Melissa Etheridge needs to realize that she is not Gandhi. Gandhi was a cunning, shrewd, clever strategist. He did what he did because it was effective, not because he was a saint. Melissa needs to step off her weird love-everybody high horse and realize that millions of gays and lesbians who don't have her level of wealth, power and fame are suffering much more than she ever will.
He wants some glaze on that donut-hole goatee!
He wouldn't want anything to interrupt the flow of food into his foul mouth.
Let's say Warren does spend gobs of money on poor, sick, hungry people somewhere. How does he spend it? Who gets the money? Are these charities his own charities, paying his own followers? What else does the money do? Does it support or interfere with family planning work in poor countries? Does it support or interfere with freedom of speech, religion, assembly? What, when we're talking about Rick Warren's largesse, is its price?
How generous!
CALL and WRITE the Obama transition team to demand that President-elect Obama to say no to anti-gay Rick Warren from delivering the invocation at Obama's inauguration.
WHAT YOU CAN DO:
1. CALL/EMAIL Emmett Belivau, Executive Director/CEO of the Inaugural Committee:
Phone:202-203-1715
Email: emmett@pic2009.org
2. SEND a letter letting the transition team know what you think here http://change.gov/page/content/contact, and
3. EMAIL Parag Mehta, Obama's LGBT liaison on the transition team at parag.mehta@ptt.gov.
Let your voices be heard and send emails to the members of Joint Congressional Committee on Inaugural Ceremonies as well.
Sen. Dianne Feinstein
http://feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?Fu...
Sen. Harry Reid
http://reid.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm
Sen. Bob Bennett
http://bennett.senate.gov/contact/email_form.cfm
Rep. Nancy Pelosi
http://speaker.house.gov/contact/
Rep. Steny Hoyer
http://hoyer.house.gov/contact/email.asp
Rep. John Boehner
http://johnboehner.house.gov/Contact/
I also worry that if Obama cans him, it will be viewed as an attack from "they gays" and turn off some moderates that really don't think about gay/straight issues (as it doesn't impact their life). Part of the reason the Republicans lost is that their tent got smaller and smaller. A lot of African Americans vote in favor of Prop 8. Should we kick them out of the Democratic party? Granted, Warren is a different kind of monster.
I think there is virtually NO CHANCE that BO will pull back from this invitation to more homophobia. He is too arrogant. He is too stubborn. He is too conflicted internally.
If I'm right, the more hell we raise, the better it serves to bring WIDE SPREAD attention to the unacceptability of such freaking lying hypocrisy and all that goes with it.
If you read what some fundies think of christ, you actually would be a christophobe. I'm having nightmares after reading a joyful discussion of how, come the end of days, christ will turn the unbelievers into little bits of gore with his voice, while riding a white horse.
Many people described this as "beautiful" and "wonderful".
Hateful much?
So, three months...then if they don't convert, they are condemned to hell.
NICE.
If you have a strong stomach and aren't prone to head exploding check out this site:
www.fstdt.com
Click on any of the categories under "Fundies say the darndest things" and prepare to be blown away by REAL statements made in the comment sections of REAL "Christian" websites.
I CHALLENGE anyone and EVERYONE here who complains that gay people are hateful toward Christians or that we are being hateful or unkind to Warren to read just ONE PAGE of that site and then come back here and talk to me about "nasty", "hate" and "(fill in the blank)-o-phobia.
Put the site into your "favorites" and refer to it every time you start feeling sorry for these people and every time you start thinking that THEY are the victims of the people they oppress.
This will give the Obama team a clear and unmistakeable message. Don't mess us over, friend, ever, friend.
He says one thing to the media. Something ENTIRELY different to Melissa Ethridge in a PRIVATE telephone conversation. And something ENTIRELY different again to his congregation.
If he really meant what he supposedly said to Melissa then why has he not said it in any of the defensive interviews and press releases that he's done over the last few days? Why did he not include in his "message to his flock" that some people on HIS side of this debate were being VERY hateful, very homophobic and very unChristian? Why didn't he acknowledge the extreme and very visible homophobia that is common in the Christian community? Why did he not mention the REAL hate-speech and REAL hate-crimes that are committed in the name of his religion DAILY? Why did he not acknowledge why so many in the gay community are hurt and angry with him and other Christians who work so hard to marginalize them, degrade them, demonize them and deny them rights?
He didn't do ANY of these things because THAT would have been way too "Christian" of him. Let's face it he hasn't REALLY been in the business of being Christian. Rather, he seems to be in the "Christianity" business. He's been more concerned with making it look like everything he's doing is Christian and making lots of money in the process.
Wondered if by the same logic it would be appropriate to have David Duke & MLK III appear together.
Y'know... Fair & Balanced.
Only stupid people will disagree that there's something wrong with that. It is NOT acceptable, especially when it's coming from a so-called "man of God".
Atheism and anti-"christians" are on the rise (100% thanks to kooks like Rick Warren for chasing them off from the church). Will Americans find it acceptable once "christians" are a religious minority, and the anti-"christians" start shouting and passing along similar propaganda about THEM?
It's something for ALL so-called "christians" to think about, for future reference.
BO is smug and arrogant to the maximum. Too cool.
Unfortunately this means it is going to require all the more expression of outrage and political cost to EVER get through this man's self-satisfied smugness.
Having his "too cool" image badly ruffled -- THAT he will not like!
Shine the spotlight on and apply a little pressure to people of Warren's ilk and they fold faster than a flimsy WalMart lawn chair.
Warren is delusional if he believes this is going to go away with a mere few pictures.
Congrats again John, it's always amazing to watch ABlog in action.
Homosexuality is not immoral. Lying about it is.
http://www.back2stonewall.com/?p=89
And Saddleback's Celebrate Recovery page still lists "Same Sex Attraction" as something to recover from:
http://celebraterecoveryfbcruss.org/crhistoryv1...
He survives off other people who happen to feel good enough about him to give him money.
Are we surprised at his latest dance?
Obama threw the gay under the bus. So now we know.
Can a pollster please call me and ask me "how is Obama doing?"
Unless something incredibly dramatic happens......ie: ENDA passes, or repeal of DADT. I will be supporting ANOTHER candidate for 2012. And I will encourage off of my RICH friends to do the same.
Gay people gave disproportionately high amounts when comparied to other groups. The Obama campaign can no longer count on my support. And frankly I will work hard in twenty twelve, should nothing happen to aknowledge our comunity, to invest in another candidate for the presidency.
Now multiply my sentiment by thousands...and the Obama people have a REAL problem.
"I have been accused of equating gay partnerships with incest and pedophilia. Now of course as members of Saddleback Church, you know I believe no such thing. I never have. You've never once heard me in 30 years talk that way about that."
-- Rick Warren, December 21, 2008
"Two lovers living together is a not a marriage. Incest is not marriage. A domestic partnership or even a civil union is still not marriage."
-- Rick Warren, December 15, 2008 (six days earlier)
"I’m opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
Q: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
A: Oh , I do."
-- Rick Warren, December 2008
Source: http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2008/12/Rick-Warr...
I also believe people can change their minds. Look at how Tammy Faye Baker came around in her later years, so I won't give up hope on Warren just yet. Do I believe this is an epiphany for him? It is of a sort. He is finding out how many people are affected by his rhetoric and that is positive.
As far as a PR firm for a church. That doesn't surprise me in the least for a church of that size. I have helped with PR for my church (a predominately LGBT United Church of Christ congregation) and I know in today's world it is a necessary thing to have experts who know the media on hand when the media comes calling.
I sure hope we can keep this level of interest up once the administration has actually been sworn in. With a receptive ear in the White House who knows what we can do if we make enough noise?
I have hope that the U.S. will grow up some day. I just don't expect to see it in my lifetime unfortunately.
Obama has Warren.
The only preacherman difference in their bigotry and anti-American purpose and sneaky deceit and intellectual laziness and snakeoilness is their names.
Obama: NO!
Say it with me,
NO! NO! NO!
http://www.atlantaprogressivenews.com/news/0416...
The article ends with this quote:
"25 or 30 years ago, the barometer of human rights in the US were Black people. That is no longer true. The barometer for judging the character of people in regards to human rights is now those who consider themselves gay, homosexual, lesbian."
Sounds like one of those privileged gays with an inflated victim mentality trying co-opt the "real" civil rights struggle. Actually it's Bayard Rustin, co-organizer of the 1963 March on Washington, shortly before his death in 1987.
They have to certify their celibacy before they get the photo op. Given the state of gay dating these days, lots of guys qualify. sigh.
I hope fatso has a lot of chewing gum.
Is he feeling maybe a teensy bit guilty about not having not cared one whit about AIDS until it was a heterosexual epidemic, too? And then he sanctimoniously helps mostly straight people with HIV/AIDS in Africa -- which is certainly a worthy thing to do -- but hasn't done diddlysquat about HIV/AIDS in the United States? Until, what, yesterday?
So, suddenly, yesterday, he's committed to helping everybody with HIV/AIDS, including people he thinks need to "repent"?
It's hilarious. Seriously. This guy is obviously not that bright (remember, he thinks dinosaurs and homo sapiens were contemporaries), and his PR advisers are probably not that astute, either. They face the daunting reality that none of them can get away from his damning record.
Is the purpose driving Rick Warren's life to be a discriminating, ignorant, homophobic, refined-carbohydrate-intemperate, hypocritical fool?
Reconciliation and penance are not going to occur through any single, simple, magic wand waving-ish gesture. There has to be true, profound understanding. Maybe Melissa Etheridge is helping him, or at least started him on the road to getting a clue. But I truly doubt Warren's really going to change his stripes any soon, and certainly not before January 20.
And shame, shame, shame on Obama for asking this very distasteful man to deliver the inauguration invocation. Obama should have known better.
> Etheridge...or at least has started him
> change his stripes any time soon
Ding, ding, ding!
Palin's supposed wardrobe source (the Anchorage store) BEFORE Nieman-Marcus and Saks.
(Is this a franchise operation?)
The 17,000 people who attend his seminars and follow the words of this guy are missing something in their lives and they believe he can fill it. He is Jimmy Jones and every other cult hero who has come and gone and brain washed the minds of these people into believing that somehow the big head in the sky talks through them. It is bunk pure and simple. I think he is frightened to death of the Gay community because he can't control the group but he can squeeze more money out of his fundies by claiming they are taking over the world.
If you believe in the teachings of Jesus tell me how is fear and homophobia are representative of anything Jesus apparently espoused.
I'm gonna pour myself a nice glass of wine and savor the thought.
ALL indications are that this came from the BO himself.
For reasons yet to be fully explored/exposed.
Here's an article from the Times: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2008/12/23/us/A...
The article refers to his video where he claims that he never, NEVAH, said The Gays were like pedophiles. Who knew an obese man could run so fast?
The fact is that he represents one of the best parts of Evangelical Christianity in this country, and he's in a real conflict here between loving people and observing what he sees as the law of his religion. The religion is bigoted, but if you believe that the religion is the word of God, then what choice do you have? I think we're seeing a genuine attempt to be a good person from Warren; he's realized that his views are personally disrespectful to a great many people, and rather than stamping his foot and proclaiming holy fire against gays, he's making an effort to be more friendly. So I say again: Rick Warren is not the enemy. It's the Christian fundamentalist philosophy that is the enemy. I yet think that Warren will become an ally of the civil rights movement, if we pressure him enough by convincing that we are being personally disrespected rather than being "ideological" or partisan.
There are a lot of stupid people in the religious right. There are people for whom the sole criterion for voting is faith in their version of a deity. There are people who believe -- well, watch Jesus Camp and be really, really scared. But Rick Warren is a good person, and a smart person, despite being a devout Christian of a conservative persuasion. He's trying hard. If he manages to reform at least somewhat by the time he gives the Inauguration brachot, I'll support him.
Now, I don't believe that $#!+, but Warren does. Or at least he says he does. So, I asked him, how could he sit there and flat-out lie about the impact of Prop 8?
Of course I haven't heard back from him. But I did sign my name to the e-mails and put my street address. As I also explained to the Rickster, he doesn't scare me. I've been harassed by professionals ($cientologists) and he's just a piker by comparison.
Or does he really still believe those religious views and has just learned to stop voicing them along with the stonings etc?
Remember, the Bible hasn't changed since the 1950s, or even the 1850s. Slaves were OK in the Bible. What DID change was that the wingnuts' money was drying up. And suddenly: Whap! We aren't to pay attention to THAT anymore! (Much like mixing fibers, killing your disrespectful children, etc.)
Thus, it will come to pass for gays, too. I don't know how long it will take -- maybe 1 year. Maybe 100 years. But it WILL change. All it takes is the victims speaking up -- sometimes loudly. So far, so good. But look at all who try to stop gays from making a big deal out of Warren. It also takes a president (and/or Congress) to get onboard.
We shall see.
Warren has no conflict...it's plain and simple ....the man is a homophobe. Period. And he is using his religion like a coward to hide behind it to shield him from the guilt of bigotry.
Don't any of these people ever question this? Are they all retarded? Yeah, I know, I always just say "YES!" too. But really!
Also, Christianity has fairly strong answers to why Jesus could have such obvious differences with Yahweh. I don't know any of them, and I think that having three gods (and worshipping Jesus instead of Yahweh) goes directly against the text of the first of the Ten Commandments, but Christians have their convoluted explanations for why that's OK. I agree that it's off-topic, actually, because this is a theology point. Short answer: yes, completely retarded. Nobody who's smart interprets the entire Bible literally anymore. This includes Rick Warren.
mentally ill. Paul was the one who said, ideally, NO ONE should have sex. He also
said that IF you couldn't live up to that, implying that made you weak, you
should get married. But make no mistake, the goal was to never have sex.
And those who did were 2nd class citizens. And that is the sex these
modern-day freaks worship.
In a message dated 12/24/2008 6:42:18 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,
writes:
Jesus maybe never mentioned gays, but didn't Paul or someone, in Romans?
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Except that the Torah is also a code of law, so if you commit a crime and are convicted by a court of law, you get stoned or burned or whatever the prescribed punishment is. And in the Bible, homosexuality is a capital crime like incest or bestiality, whereas eating shellfish is a private offense so long as you're not attempting to enter the Temple after having eaten it; according to Leviticus, you can generally just sac a goat or something and your uncleanliness goes away.
Why is Warren compelled to agree with the decision? Faith. It's kinda stupid, in my view, but there's this concept of faith, where you believe what your religion teaches (and it's not just the Bible). Warren is not a bad man; he just believes in a religion that believes bad things. I say this because he's really been trying, rather than issuing statements about how gays caused 9/11. I don't think you're really seeing what's going on here and are making generalizations about bigots. Rick Warren doesn't see being anti-gay as bigotry; he sees it as following his religion. Only now we're showing him that it actually hurts people, and he's not happy about hurting people because he's a good guy. That's why I'm optimistic that he'll turn around.
Warren doesn't have much of a choice here unless he bucks his religion, and that's a breach of faith by definition. I've read some Rabbinic responsa about homosexuality, and they express a similar sentiment: "we WANT to give gays full acceptance etc., but our hands are tied; the Torah says so-and-so!" (There was one interesting Conservative responsum about why it was OK to ignore that part of the Torah and give gays full equality in the Conservative movement, but that's a comment for another time.) The recent actions show that Warren is a good person who WANTS to be liked and respected by gays, and the more he sees that he's being a jackass personally to gay people, the more he'll try to be better about it, UNLIKE Falwell and Dobson and those guys. That's why I say keep the pressure up on Warren, and not in a mean way but in a way that clearly expresses why HE's wrong and whom HE's hurt, and by Inauguration, who knows but that Rick Warren may have changed somewhat for the better.
Religion is NOT a choice. If you believe something, then you believe it; if not, you don't. You can't just pick a religion that you don't believe in. (I say this as an atheist Jew, but that's a bit different from being a preacher.) Rick Warren probably didn't think about gayness when he was discovering what his beliefs were towards gods and their sons. And by the way, Christian denominations aren't just a choice of flavor, like choosing a church. It's a fairly big deal and if you don't believe the denomination's teachings (I use "religion" and "denomination" interchangeably here), you can't just choose to be a member (unless you're not actually religious and don't mind the dissonance, like me, but if you're religious, this holds).
Got 'em on the run, Greek lad.
The porcine Falwell-in-a-Hawaiian-shirt sure has bitten off more than he can chew this time. Delicious.
In a recent interview Warren said all the gays that have come to him for counsel have expressed their desire to have multiple sexual partners. He said in the interview that he also wants to have sex with all good looking women he sees, but he controls his desires. He made no comment at that point about his opinion of gays who want to have a loving monogamous relationship.
Then today we find out that he thinks even if science proves that homosexuality is biologocal, gays still just should NOT HAVE SEX. I guess it's that same comparison to pedophilia thing. You know it's biological for them to want to have sex whith children and then just shouldn't do it. Same for gays I guess. Just don't do it.
I imagine tomorrow we will fnd out that he thinks gays shouldn't even masterbate because they are thinking of an opposite sex partner while they do it.
Yeah, that's great for your mental health.
Don't congratulate yourselves, you've only done harm here.
So here are Obama's words: "What I've also said is that it is important for America to come together, even though we may have disagreements on certain social issues."
REALLY? People can legitimately disagree on whether or not gay people are akin to PEDOPHILES? They can disagree about whether or not ALL CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY should have the same civil rights?
And then there's this comment from Obama: "...what we have to do is to be able to create an atmosphere where we can disagree without being disagreeable and then focus on those things that we hold in common as Americans."
REALLY? It's possible to NOT be DISAGREEABLE while comparing gay couples to PEDOPHILES?
And it's possible to NOT be DISAGREEABLE while attempting to negate and/or take away gay citizens' civil rights?
That's the problem here. The Religious Right has framed LGBT issues, for decades, as a "cultural" issue - somehow, we're infringing on their right to freedom of speech and to worship as they please because a) we don't want to get discriminated against at work, b) we want the right to pursue our religious and spiritual beliefs in getting married, c) we want to be treated fairly under the law, and d) we want to be free of hate-mongering and physical violence because of who we are.
The Democrats have, for years, really let us down on this issue and Obama's brought it out in the open by looking at this as a "cultural" issue - it's a Human Rights issue, plain and simple.
The Democrats and Obama need to prove that they can call this what it is - bigotry and an imposing of religious beliefs on a minority. It's not a "difference of opinion". It's a Human Rights issue.
I won't settle for anything less before supporting Obama and the Democrats again.
I guess I am a bit angry because I really thought Obama understood this being mixed race and his life experience. I feel very sadly that I was wrong.
Who, pray-tell, is falling for all of this?
Why did 'Out of the Closet' let him shoot there? they should have ran his ass out of the store with a wire coat-hanger.
Obama fucked up… and he knows it now, but to try to disinvite Warren at this point would be seen to those on the right that Obama is trying to reach as a capitulation to the “pedophiles.” [Sidebar: As a gay man I am interested in other gay MEN – not kids. Hell, for me men don’t become interesting until they’re in their 40’s. Besides, aren’t most pedophiles self-proclaimed heterosexuals?]
If Warren had any class he’d excuse himself from the gig so as not to be a distraction from the momentous and historic occasion this will be. But Warren is as much a publicity whore as… well, Kathy Griffin (no offense, but she’s said this of herself in the past I feel alright repeating it), so there is no chance Warren will graciously step aside.
Here’s how all of this will play out:
* Obama, Warren and their minions will continue to say this invitation to a dialogue is an effort to “reach across” the political divide (which, of course, is complete bull shit, as this will only be seen by those on the right for the stunt that it is, and the right will continue to talk about Obama as a baby killer and gay lover);
* We ‘gays’ will continue to beat out chests and denounce this invitation; we will write letters and blog ad infinitum; we will make signs and march in protest (because we love a parade); and we will make the argument that this is about civil rights to the same crowd that knows it and doesn’t care about our civil rights; and
* The inaugural will come and go, and the only controversy on the day of the event will be about Michelle’s gown – did we like it or not. And on the day AFTER the swearing-in, the new administration will still have no openly gay cabinet members, DOMA will still be the law of the land, and military gays will still not ‘ask nor tell.’
So does that mean nothing is to be done? NO! Civil rights have never come from the politicians – either Congress or the Executive Branch – as they are too beholding to the voting public; civil rights have always come from the courts.
Therefore, all of our efforts need to focus on the highest courts of the land and the appointment of the justices to those courts that are fair-minded individuals not steeped in the religious bigotry of the simple-minded preachers who are out front yelling as loud as they can trying to distract us.
Sure, it would have been great to celebrate this historic inauguration with ‘hope’ and ‘change’ floating through the crowds. I never believed Obama would be the leader that would bring anything more than change to the courts. From Donny McClurkin to Jeremiah Wright to Rick Warren, Obama’s choice of preachers has always been problematic; however, I want to believe – and I choose to believe – that the justices Obama appoints to the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court will be the leaders we can really hang our hopes on.
So I’ll continue to blog and rant and rave about this appointment even though I know it is a done deal so that the message is clear: We’re here, we’re queer, and our hope is in the courts.
The President-elect, a STRAIGHT MALE, doesn't seem to get it. His decision to invite Warren was callous and insensitive.
Should Obama not disinvite him, he will have started just like the other bozo who said, he's a uniter not a divider. Obama has not only pissed off lots of gay folks but also straight people who are horrified that he would do something like that.
Party will definitely be over on January 20 if Obama doesn't dump Warren. And his message of "hope" will simply be a four letter word.
* Over and over again African-American rights were traded or bargained away by politicians. This how reconstruction ended. Our rights were negotiable and considered "cultural issues" that could be debated and disagreed upon by well meaning people. Gee... isn't that similar to Obama's language about " disagreements on social issues" and his reaching out to Rick Warren?
* Look to Roosevelt administration and its treatment of African-Americans as a model of we need to watch out for. Nice sentiments, but very little action. Look to Roosevelt's "Black Cabinet" as an example of what can happen, or already has happened in my view, to us. Roosevelt put together a African-American group of advisors to assist him with African-American issues. He refused to actually meet or speak with his "Black Cabinet." They had very little policy influence. But, to the African-American community the "Black Cabinet" , looked significant, felt good, and they were thankful for the small crumbs thrown at them from the Roosevelt administration. No real substantive change, but symbolism that mollified our community for some time. Sounds familiar doesn't it? Clinton=Roosevelt. Obama=Roosevelt?
* Look to Truman. He did more then just lend moral support and noble specifying to the African-American equality movement. Truman's effort led to the integration of the armed forces. The end to segregation of the most conservative of our federal institutions directly led to the mindset that fought for an end of segregation in the rest of society. The end of DOMA is a key starting point. Obama can do this with his signature. Is Obama=Roosevelt? Obama=Truman?
* African-Americans weren't taken seriously until we took ourselves and our rights seriously and stopped responding to symbolism and tokenism instead of real action and change. It was the "aggressive negroes" as Southern whites used to call them, who took to the streets and took direct action who secured the rights for us in the 50's and 60's. Are we going to settle for "the best we can get given the circumstances" as African -Americans did under the Liberal Roosevelt administration? Or are we going to fight for full integration, including the end to marriage segregation, as did African-Americans did in the 50's and 60's? I think the GBLT community is in the midst of making that choice right about now.
http://www.ocregister.com/articles/warren-obama...
Aravosis will LOVE that.
Really?
Someone who may not agree with the idea of gay marriage is okay.
Someone who openly preaches hate and divisiveness and equates my sexual orientation with that of a pedophile is unacceptable.
"....he represents one of the best parts of Evangelical Christianity in this country."
Best evangelical christian--now there's an oxymoron for ya.
What's with the attitude where nothing can ever be good, and if it is good, then it's not good enough so you reject it. In a confusing and dirty campaign, 48% of Californians still side with the gay community, and people conclude that the vast majority is prejudiced against the gay community. In fact, nearly half of the straight community came out to support gay rights, which is more than ever before. Any satisfaction in that, nope gonna worry about the people who don't yet support you.
Then Rick Warren publicly says some things that are good for the gay rights movement, like his belief that "every loving relationship should have equal protection". You've got to consider that this guy has sold over 20 million books. He's got a huge influence in the evangelical community. If open arms from the liberal side means he throws his support behind federal fully equal civil unions that would shatter the unity of the crowd that would most vehemently oppose truly equal civil unions, giving it a good chance of passing. If making progress towards equality is really of interest to you, this is a good thing. Is it so painful to be proven wrong that you can't extend anyone the benefit of the doubt?
I feel that the issue of gay rights has stagnated for way too long, and it's finally getting the attention it deserves. Frankly, I find that exciting. If you want every homophobe to admit they were wrong and beg for forgiveness, then you're never going to be happy. If that's what you're waiting for, then you might as well start being pre-disappointed. I could see some other things making my day in the next couple years though. I think that the one group who really should be pre-disappointed would be the white supremacists who voted for Obama in the hopes that his election would spark a race war.
And what makes you say the criticism of Rev. Rick is equivalent to not being thankful for those who supported us? We love them What does criticism of Warren have to do with them?
aaaaaahahahahahahaha...we got your repurposed right here.
Is that the title of his upcoming tome? The Repurposed Bigot?
Ricky's religious views will not trump my civil rights. that's it.
Civil Unions with full state and federal benefits that would require the repeal of DOMA
Repeal of DADT
Gay Adoption
ENDA
Including sexual orientation and gender identity in civil rights laws
Including sexual orientation and gender identity in Hate Crimes laws
Anybody know since they keep claiming it's only gay marriage Warren opposes?
all that is coming out of our mouths is a perfectly legitimate demand for equality...that's only bad to a homophobe.
When I first came out, gay men and lesbians were ENEMIES.
Since that time, I have adopted three children as a lesbian, had domestic partner benefits, watched my Irish-Catholic family embrace both me and my african-american children, seen lgbt hate crimes passed, and witnessed both marriage and civil unions legalized in several states.
This is all in 30 years.
We are winning, and we will win.
I am, however, disturbed by the tone of the comments I read hear. Fat bashing, mom-bashing (me), litmus tests for everyone.....
I still have my Act-Up tee, and believe in speaking up loudly about issues. I don't think that the kind of vitriol that I have read here works.
Eyes on the prize, please.
btw, some of the fat-bashing is what they call a "rhetorical device" to underscore hypocrisy (viz. gluttony is one of the bible's 7 deadly sins -- you know, the bible that the bigots clobber us with -- and rick warren says gays should resist the temptation to have sex forever -- get it?)
no but seriously, what is the proper response to being officially declared 2nd class perverts from atop the inaugural platform?
and still i'd honestly like to know what the proper expression of anger would be, given that we will be perverts and 2nd class americans in the eyes of the nation's pre-eminent preacher on Jan 20 in front of a billion observers. disappointment is not going to work for most of us.
And, as I said, I am disappointed, not angry. I still believe that Obama is going to do what he said he would: work to repeal DOMA, and end DADT. Also, I won't feel like a pervert or a second class American on January 20th. I want ( in addition to being able to make it legal if and when I fall in love again ) my children to have a world to grow up into. I don't want my sons being drafted or going to war. I want them to be able to be who they ARE (and my 13 year-old currently identifies as bisexual, and is OUT in middle school with no repercussions). I want them to go to college, I want them to have health care. I want those things for ALL of us. And, I want us to be able to get married. And it will happen.
We are finally fighting back, and you say keep quiet and live with it? Give me a break. I wonder if you have the same compasion for say David Duke? He seems like a nice enough guy, goes to church, obeys the laws. But he is part of the KKK. Should we listen to his garbage or should we stand up and say enough!
Obama has mistakingly given Warren a platform on a most solemn occasion, and I personally garnered over ten grand for the man to get him in the white house hoping for change. I was with Obama from day one.
I am entitled to be a bit pissed when Mr. Obama then lends credibility to a professed Bigot on the most solemn of occasions such as the invocation. Warren is to be pittied for his ignorance. He does not speak for me. From a psychological standpoint the man has sociopathic tendancies.
You should look at some of his interviews...they will make your head spin. I for one will not give up on this topic. Barack made, or a lower level person, made a grave error with this, and I want some answers.
Meet with Warren after, see what he has to say, whatever....but not at an inaguration for a man that is suppossed to represent change.
sitemonitor
a true supporter, whether gay or straight, would share some of the anger expressed here. instead you seem to be expressing the gag reflex that you mentioned above. i am all too familiar with this weak, lazy-ass faux-liberal mentality. it is anything but supportive.
Don't abandon Obama cause of that dip shit Warren.......most preachers feel the same as Warren but don't have the guts to say it out loud. Warren's speaking out etc. opened the dialog.
With all the gay haters don't dismiss us lazy ass, faux liberals cause we vote for your causes. Lighten up, please...
And YOU complain that WE are anti-lesbian and anti-mother.
It sounds to me that you are lesbo-centric and mother-centric and that you have an issue with gay men and fathers.
I think you're still living in the 70's when, according to you, lesbians and gay men hated each other. Well it's a whole new millenium and most of us get along now and most lesbians who come to this site like it.
You should find another place to hang out if you dislike AmericaBlog and its readers so much.
I pointed out we cannot adopt in all states in the US, so just because you have your kids does not mean we have to stop fighting for others to have theirs. You come across as very selfish and self centered. This fight isn't about you, it's about all GLBT people. The fact that you started a thread just about you again is telling.
I do not identify or understand homosexuality. The tv shows are helping me and I am now used to seeing men kiss etc. Six Feet Under show and now the tv people are coming out. Just give straight people a chance.......we don't really understand. I live and let live. I didn't want to see Brokeback Mountain cause I am not interested in nor can I identify with gay love or love between an old man and a young woman.
My point is it doesn't work to shove it down my throat.........I have a strong gag reflex.
did it ever occur to you that gays have to get used to having hetero sex "shoved down our throat"? not just old and young heteros but every sort of woman and every sort of man in every sort of movie, song, book, play, etc. take it from me, you CAN get over that gag reflex if you want to.
but thanks for the fake liberal schtick. love how you sanitized the pedophilia thing to an old-man young-woman thing. funny.
Quit worrying about the homophobia. Focus on the anti-Semitism if you want action.
Good idea. I am going to find that quote and send it to Emanuals email.
We have been being told since this erupted not to worry because the Rev Lowrey will be giving the benediction at the inauguration and he supports gay rights, implying the he supports gay marriage.
Well Rev Lowrey was just interviewed on MSNBC by David Schuster. And, in the middle of the interview he pointed out that he has NEVER SAID that he supports gay marriage. He supports civil unions. He supports civil rights for gays, but NOT GAY MARRIAGE.
Throughout this we have also been told by some that the only issue Warren has with gays is marriage.
So now, tell me the difference between Warren and Lowrey since it has come to light that even Lowrey doesn't support gay marriage.
Is it that Warren doesn't actually support any rights for gays? Or, is it just a difference in "tone" that Lowrey wouldn't use the incest and pedophile comparison, but that he and Warren otherwise agree?
Here are just a few:
- Rick Warren publicly declared on his website that "unrepentant homosexuals" were not welcome to join his church. Rev. Lowrey lead a commission to challenge the Methodist church to fully open their doors to the full spiritual inclusion of GLBT people.
- Rick Warren supported Prop 8. Lowery is against ANY and ALL laws to deny rights to gays or to make gay marriage illegal.
- Rick Warren has made COUNTLESS anti-gay statements INCLUDING the ones where he equated gay marriage with pedophilia/incest/polygamy. Lowery has never and would never say anything homophobic.
- Rick Warren has NO record of being a civil rights leader for ANYONE. Lowery has been a civil rights leader for African-Americans, GLBT people and others for over fifty years.
The list goes on and on.
Probably afraid he'll run into someone he knows close to home. Wouldn't want the neighbors talking.
He's on Larry King RIGHT NOW, and Larry just asked him if he thinks marriage is a civil right: "Do you think it's a civil right? Do people have the right to marry whom they wish to marry?"
Osteen responds that he thinks anybody should be able to marry. So, Larry says, "But not gays?"
His answer, "I just don't think that's God's best. No, I don't think that's good." So much for him just saying in the previous sentence that anybody should be able to marry. What a scumball.
King then asks him if he thinks being gay is a choice, and of course the idiot says "Yes."
I am SO sick of these jerks.
It's one thing for someone to have an opinion about something, but it's another thing when someone actively tries to impede people's civil rights due to their twisted views and ignorance. That's what irks me about Warren and why I'm totally against him being invited to do this prayer thing for Obama.
Exactly. The bottom line ultimately is who Obama puts on the Supreme Court. We had NO CHANCE AT ALL with McCain or, god forbid, Palin, picking the next one or two Supreme Court justices. Now we have a chance to stave of a generation or more of conservative court bullshit, from lower federal courts, all the way up to the Supreme Court.
It is becoming more evident that while the gay community has been an ardent support of black Democrats in local, state and federal elections; this has to change. Gay support of black candidate must be more readily discerned; don't give your votes away to an enemy of your community. They will come back and do things like choose a gay racist unapologetic pastor to participate in their inaguration. Watch as more black preachers speak in the same voice as Warren. The black vote in California was primarily responsible for the success of Prop 8. They must be seen as much a detractor of gay community rights as are other conservative religious voters.
Talk about running around in circles; the gay community must organize against all factions of the conservative right; and no longer afford the black community a free ride with our votes.
Truth: More Mormons (from out of state) fought FOR Prop 8 than blacks, in state. And let's not forget the Catholic bigots. There is blame to go around to a lot of sides, but to single out the blacks is just RACIST.
Now, go preach your bigotry elsewhere.
Rick Warren is a lifelong Southern Baptist. His father was a Southern Baptist preacher. Rick went to a Southern Baptist college and seminary. Saddleback Church has been, since its founding, belonged to the Southern Baptist Convention.
For the record, people: Southern Baptist = Anti-gay. PERIOD.
Rick Warren doesn't have a choice, even if he wanted one (which he doesn't). If he so much as tried to be lenient towards gays, he would get kicked out of the SBC. Any Southern Baptist church that is less than hateful and exclusionary to LGBT people gets kicked out.
This is not hard. Warren is a hateful bigot. He will always be a hateful bigot. Obama and Etheridge are fools to give him the time of day.
The entire reason for the Southern Baptist Church is to support slavery. I have Baptist relatives that still use the N-word. That's it. If Obama wants to suck up to them on his own account, great! But he doesn't speak for us. They will never be our friends.
http://www.queerty.com/saddleback-church-site-n...
West Hollywood might be in second place.
Seems to me you all feel the same way about the evangelicals.
I'm thinking the word HYPOCRITE ... that's what comes to mind!
As John Adam's said. I will never keep quiet, never.
I still Love B.H.O. Don't worry...I am just trying to get his attention to prevent this type of stuff from happening in the first place. And it's working. Tammy Baldwin has been called upon to engage in this conversation by the Obama camp. It's all good.
Don't blame the rape victim for wearing a short skirt. It's not US and THEM. For god sake, I was raised in a Catholic family, went to catholic grade school and college....hit puberty and realized I was different. Tried to supress it, that of course is a crazy thing to do.
Go through all of this, only to find out I am not welcomed back in the Church?
How is any of this intollerance on our part. We are simply reacting to injustice.
The (non-gay) Christians far outnumber gays in America - don't count on winning your good fight - not anytime soon!
Merry Christmas ~
I get that there are a great number of people whose feelings are truly hurt because of the Warren pick, but 1 thing I realized the other day, while listening to David Bender on Air America, is that a lot of the outcry seems very similar to the way many people react to the idea of gay marriage - 1st there is a strong negative EMOTIONAL reaction, then rationalization begins. The idea comes from listening to interviews w/ Drew Westen about his book 'The Political Brain"(which I intend to read ASAP)
Another thing I realized is that Obama has invited a man who has preached AGAINST him & a great deal of what he stands for(liberal ideals) to come before our nation & 'bless' him - & I think that's brilliant.
No more.