The best I can figure out is damned if you do and damned if you don't. I don't want Wall Street given their very own bailout for a problem they created but on the other hand I shudder to think what is going to happen if some type of plan is not activated.
Reason0Politics1
· 1 year ago
John.. WHY are you supporting these thugs? Why Are you buying into this BS that we have to RIP OURSELVES OFF to Stop being ripped off?
your obviously NOT doing your homework, just buying into BS. Stop it! You have some credibility! Dont throw it away by supporting BS Bailouts!
It will be fun to watch both Obama and McCain squirm now to explain why they backed a scheme that the American people clearly see as a crooked deal.
People see clearly that this proposal is a trillion-dollar giveaway to the very people who have been hollowing out and destroying the US economy for over a decade or more by convincing both parties to let them do whatever they want to get rich, free of any kind of significant oversight or regulation.
As Nobelist economist Joseph Stiglitz has written of this outrageous rip-off, there are four problems facing the financial system, and the bailout proposal only addresses one--getting the toxic mortgages off the banks' books and onto taxpayers' backs. Left unsolved is the gaping hole in banks' balance sheets in the form of loans made to people and companies which cannot be repaid, which will mean they still won't start lending money again. Left unaddressed too is the continuing collapse of housing prices, which will inevitably lead to more bank collapses even after the bailout. Finally, Stiglitz says there is the general loss of faith in the financial system--a major crisis which the bailout will also not solve.
Stiglitz doesn't even address a fifth problem which is that this trillion-plus-dollar boondoggle (and when you add in the bailouts of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, AIG, Bear Stearns, the multiple mega-bank failures and the pending auto-industry bailout, you're already talking $1.5 trillion and counting), all of it with borrowed money, the stage is being set for a collapse in the US dollar, with consequences that will reverberate through the economy. Consider: if the dollar collapses, as many experts say is almost inevitable with this kind of huge addition to the national debt, oil prices (which are set in dollars) will soar to compensate, the price of all the other goods that Americans import--more than half of everything we use in daily life thanks to the decimation of American manufacturing--will rise dramatically, and ultimately, in an effort to stem the bleeding, interest rates will have to be raised, thus bringing what's left of the economy to a grinding halt.
All of this is readily predictable--and indeed a group of over 200 prominent economists has written Congress joining Stiglitz in opposing the bailout plan--but that doesn't matter to the proponents of the bailout in Washington. What they want is to get past Election Day, and the bailout may do that, unless the public gets really aroused.
The tsunami of calls and emails to Congress, and last week's nationwide demonstrations against the bailout suggest that the public is waking up to this looming disaster and to the fact that they are being sold a bill of goods.
gwpriester
· 1 year ago
Unfortunately you are naive and wrong. And if you watch the market tank you will see how wrong you are.
Bailing out these companies is not a very savory thing to do, but it is so beyond what we want at this point. To vote down this plan, sadly is going to do the country in and drag the rest of the world down the toilet at the same time.
These small minded politicians who are not smart enough to see that this is no time for CYA politics.
But it is too late. If you think the markets tanked today, you ain't seen nothing yet.
met00
· 1 year ago
oh damn, there are weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?!?!?! Do something!!! Quickly!!
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
Amen. Everyone, celebrate your victory, for next week we're all on the breadline together. I just got laid off today so I'm a little bit ahead of the rest I guess.
John Aravosis
· 1 year ago
They just mentioned the question as to whether ATMs will be working next week. I don't admit to be an expert on the economy, that's Chris' purview, but this entire situation strikes me as a bit runaway train heading for a cliff.
unrepentant_expat
· 1 year ago
In which case, it might be better to hit the brakes than to pitch more coal into the boiler.
shrrrr
· 1 year ago
There's a paradox here. Merely talking about this increases the chances of it happening.
Reason0Politics1
· 1 year ago
my friend that have yet to meet.. may you know love and peace in all you do
but on this one...
you are the naive one. Throwing more money after bad will NOT stop the train wreck. How can you be so duped as to now trust the thieves that caused it? Destroy whats left of the nation to protect your selfish 401k? Thats NOT solid judgment, my friend. We are most likely already destroyed, but adding to it as a temporary stop gap? insanely foolish and truly naive.
bkmn
· 1 year ago
As long as McCain keeps "working" on fixing things it can't get much worse, can it? What comes next? Maybe personal lines of credit dry up, credit card companies suddenly cap lines of credit on your credit cards?
hmmm...
Reason0Politics1
· 1 year ago
This isnt a bailout anyway. This is CONSOLIDATION of business...leading to their end game anyway.. Monopolization. We will be all working for the "company store"
dad
· 1 year ago
i lost my retirement to pay for healthcare costs required for one of my sons.
$700 Billion could pay for 10 years of Obama's healthcare plan.
sorry this is hitting some hard, recently.
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
Are all the "no bailout" people happy now? To serve your fucking desire to stick it to Wall Street REAL people are now getting hurt. So you can sit on your righteous high horses and claim victory, I have to go and work on my resume because my company just laid off 40% of the staff today.
Welcome to the start of the death spiral and when we hit bottom (not even close yet) none of us will be waxing poetic about how wonderful it is that now we can set things right. There is a time when personal convictions must be sacrificed in the name of action, and today was one of them, and once again our elected officials chose self interest (getting re-elected).
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
very sorry.. 40% what industry?
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
computers. Small firm, still VC dependent to an extent. Basically no one is willing to extend credit and even the VC people are tightening up.
devis1
· 1 year ago
Sorry to hear that..
Fireblazes(CheetohsandCatfood)
· 1 year ago
I know. People do not get that business is dependent on credit to make the expenses.
tbhull
· 1 year ago
It is all built on compounded deception and bullshit, leveraged to boot. Therefore, it will fall and fall much farther as it must, otherwise we become a slave to the fraud that the market really is.
profmarcus
· 1 year ago
look, i don't wish anyone ill in a financial collapse... i've got a small nestegg - very small - tucked away in a 401K and my oldest son and his wife are watching theirs vanish before their eyes... but, let's get real... the bailout bill wasn't designed to do anything but preserve the status quo with a little window dressing thrown in to appease the masses and let our so-called progressive, liberal democrat congressfolks claim that they have the common good of the country at heart... horse hockey, as mash's colonel potter used to say...
here's what a commenter on my blog says: "I don't think there should be any bail out whatsoever. Let the markets correct themselves. If they crash and burn, fine. We can start over.
There will not be credit freeze up. Rich people need poor people to buy their sh*t. If they don't sell their stuff, they don't make money. They WILL issue credit when necessary.
Does anyone honestly believe the banks will be sitting on all these houses they foreclosed on, forever?
Houses that sit vacant for long periods of time decline in value, as they are subject to vandalism and depreciation. All this scare tactic BS is only being used to make some quick money for Wall Street.
They took the risks, let them pay the price. Where the hell is all that money they made? Time for them to dig some of it out and pony up.
If anything, I think the government should start prosecuting all those responsible for this pyramid scheme, and start seizing all their assets. We would have plenty of money then, and no bail out would be necessary."
to which my response was:
"I think the government should start prosecuting all those responsible for this pyramid scheme..."
hmmm... isn't that the same problem we've been having all along - expecting that the criminals will prosecute themselves...?
i'm happy... let the goddam house of cards fall, the quicker the better...
John, you're wrong on this one. You didn't lose squat, unless of course you are going to cash out tomorrow. If you are, then you did.
It's how you want to FRAME it. If you want to continue FRAMING it in terms that favor the GOP, go for it. But the reality is that there was a 7% decrease in the market, and while that's a great deal, it is not like those of us who have been investing for the last 30 years are in a LOSS position. After multiple years of 12-20% gains, a 7% loss hurts, but it is money that is invested. That means, as investors like to say, that it's time to "income average" some and continue my prudent investing in mutual funds that match my long term strategy.
As for the hiccup, it hurts if I was a short term investor. But my 401K is a long term investment. So I'm not all that worried. And the fact that you are just shows that someone has not explained everything clear enough.
donotmakemecomedownthere
· 1 year ago
This "hiccup" has returned the Dow to pre-Dubya levels. Two terms of hiccuping is enough.
Fireblazes(CheetohsandCatfood)
· 1 year ago
The point is when times are good the Banks are telling you to move it around, change your investments in your 401k, maximize your gain. When times are hard Banks and people like you say: DON'T MOVE IT! KEEP IT WHERE IT IS! IT IS A LONG TERM INVESTMENT! No I believe I will minimize my loss and move it around. Thanks for the advice from Wall Street.
MNUSA
· 1 year ago
Congress should have stepped on the brake and said they would act, but only after exploring the options. Going gung ho with the Bush plan reminds me too much like the Iraq War and the Patriot Act. Congress needs to explore alternatives with Washington outsiders then formulate a plan that works and is fair to everyone. I do have a 401K, but still don't want to do long term damage for short term gain.
csnet
· 1 year ago
I am proud of the progressive Democrats in the House who stood up to the DLC crooks helping Wall Street steal even more from this economy. My representative Lynn Woolsey, and others like Kucinich, voted NO to stop this monstrosity. Look what Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-OH) said over the weekend:
"The normal legislative process that should accompany a monumental proposal to bail out Wall Street has been shelved. Yes, shelved! Only a few insiders are doing the dealing. These criminals have so much power they can shut down the normal legislative process of the highest lawmaking body in this land. All the committees that should be scanning every word that is being negotiated have been benched. And that means the American people have been benched. We are constitutionally sworn to protect this country against all enemies foreign and domestic, and yes, my friends, there are enemies....The people who are pushing this bill are the very same one's who are responsible for the implosion on Wall Street. They were fraudulent then; and they are fraudulent now.We should say No to this deal".
This massive transfer of dollars to Wall Street insiders will not help the ecomomy one bit. All it would so is prop up stock prices long enough so that the insiders could sell out their shares for a better price.
If we are going to spend $700 billion, it should go directly into the economy with jobs programs like the WPA, infrastructure investment, and other ideas expressed by Dennis Kucinich and others.
It is a mistake to believe that the Republicans alone scuttled this bailout when 95 good Democrats also stood up against this terrible transfer of wealth directly to those criminals who have already stolen so much.
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
I have heard the WPA was funded by 300 billion in today's dollars. Only! I also talked to a civil engineer a few weeks ago, and he was telling me WPA-built projects knock flat all most modern construction for it's design and durability...
WindmillChasr
· 1 year ago
That's because back then they did it right instead of on the cheap, with quality materials. Bricks and granite versus PVC and plastic.
Reason0Politics1
· 1 year ago
GREAT POST! Exactly! We should be CELEBRATING the brave few Dems that stood AGAINST This shit!
lucky hussein
· 1 year ago
? If you have a balanced portfolio, you don't lose 7% just because the market loses 7%. But, point taken on the loss, however, you don't know that other, major issues we face wouldn't have caused this anyway, of course.
Again, money in the stock market is NEVER 'money in your pocket..'
Reason0Politics1
· 1 year ago
To those that think we "high minded folks" that are against any so called bail out... exactly..wtf are you thinking? We KNOW this government lies to us. Your already to start believing them now? Are you insane? This would only be a temporary bump..just long enough for their insider buddies to get out before the crash continues. The Unraveling of the this long DEAD economy started a long time ago, and this more free money for insiders attempt is OVERTLY criminal.
Besides, there's no guarantee that the banks will use the money in the way that Paulson imagines. As one Wall Street veteran explained to me, "I don't see one penny of that $700 billion ending up helping the broader economy. I see it being used to prop up share prices so the insiders can salvage as much as possible when dumping their shares".
Indeed, the $700 billion is just part of a massive "pump and dump" scheme engineered with the tacit approval of the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve. Once the banksters have offloaded their fraudulent securities and crappy paper on Uncle Sam, they will do whatever they need to do pad the bottom line and drive their stocks up. That means they will shovel capital into hard assets, foreign currencies, gold, interest rate swaps, carry trade swindles, and Swiss bank accounts. The notion that they will recapitalize so they can provide loans to US consumers and businesses in a slumping economy is a pipedream. The US is headed into its worst recession in 60 years. The housing market is crashing, securitzation is kaput, and the broader economy is drifting towards the reef. The banks are not going to waste their time trying to revive a moribund US market where consumers and businesses are already tapped out. No way; it's on to greener pastures. They'll move their capital wherever they think they can maximize their profits. In fact, a sizable portion of the $700 billion will likely be invested in commodities, which means that we'll see another round of hyperbolic speculation in food and energy futures pushing food and fuel prices back into the stratosphere. Ironically, the taxpayers largess will be used against him, making a bad situation even worse.
Busboy
· 1 year ago
What's 7% when astute investors have been making 50% returns in the market for years?
Bush_Bites
· 1 year ago
Glad I'm a wuss investor and always keep some in cash, money market and CDs.
Not that I didn't take a bath anyway, but not as bad a bath as it could have been.
Busboy
· 1 year ago
The $700 billion was going to bail out Paulson's friends. Why do you think he was down on bended knee before pelosi? It's that simple. If a poor man loses his house, the banks take it and auction it off. End of story. The bankers lose. BANKERS DON"T LIKE TO LOSE, VIRGINIA!! That's why they're all hovering around D.C.
Bush_Bites
· 1 year ago
They'll probably pick it up, dust it off and pass it on Thursday.
As long as McCain stays away and doesn't fuck it up again.
mikebmikeb
· 1 year ago
How about letting heroic gentlewoman Marcy Kaptur of Ohio explain it to you whiners?
This bill failed because it was a piece of crap, end of story.
Welcome to the real world I live in, hand-to-mouth.
Busboy
· 1 year ago
The Fed just flushed 630 billion into the economy to keep things oiled today. If the fed can handle the situation? Why do we need to golden parachute the uber rich to the tune of 700 mil?
Bush_Bites
· 1 year ago
The Dow, NASDAQ and value of the Dollar against the Euro are now all below what they were when Bush took office.
But, on the other hand, inflation and unemployment are higher.
Fireblazes(CheetohsandCatfood)
· 1 year ago
No, I did not lose a dime. I moved it to a safer investment. When things improve I will move it back.
Desert_Hussein_Rat
· 1 year ago
John, just stop. Get real.
Are you retiring tomorrow? Yeah, it hurts.
Are you retiring in 5 years? Yeah, it stings.
Are you retiring in 10 or more years? Cool, what an opportunity to buy shares of quality companies at low prices.
This was a steaming pile of a bill. Even with the Democratic improvements, it was shit on artisan bread, with Dijon mustard.
It's quite clear the GOP isn't going to put country first.
Now the Democratic majority has been given carte blanche to write a better bill. Without the GOP. With more help for homeowners, for working people, With nationalization ON the table. With real Congressional oversight. With real restrictions on executive golden parachutes.
We can also dole out the money in smaller parcels as needed. And after today, just let the GOP filibuster it. Just let Bush veto it. Let them explain to voters that they are putting party ahead of country.
But above all, let's keep a little perspective, instead of freaking out, ok?
Unless you are retiring soon (in which case, what are you doing all in stocks anyway?), this is a setback. Nothing more.
Fireblazes(CheetohsandCatfood)
· 1 year ago
No john is being real. America has let its anger at the Bushies wreck themselves.
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
I lost my job today. What's your handy rationalizing to make that "nothing" to my 5 year old kid and I.
Desert_Hussein_Rat
· 1 year ago
Who was even talking about jobs. John's point was entirely about retirement savings. Real people have been losing jobs all year. I know some of them.
I'm truly sorry to hear you lost your job today. I have been exactly there, more than once. If you think I am being callous about that, please accept my sincerest apologies. That wasn't my intention.
I know a number of people who have lost jobs this year. It was bad before the bailout bill. It's also worth noting that even with the bailout bill, there is going to be a period of pain. Not happy news, I know.
I was speaking more narrowly about this bailout bill. The economy is in sorry shape right now. Today, as horrible as the selloff was, Wall Street effectively gave back the gains of what was an entirely irrational run up in the market the last few days.
Something does need to be done. Handing that money to the same people who brought you Iraq and Katrina with oversight restrictions and restrictions on executive pay that Treasury officials are already labeling as "a joke" is not something I believe to be acceptable. As a taxpayer, I'd like to think that your money, and my money, should be used more effectively.
WDemDem
· 1 year ago
A tenant of mine works for a huge mortgage company based in Des Moines. They are dealing with this internally by raising the interest rates on all lines of credit and second mortgages to 22%, effectively stopping anyone from borrowing against their house. Conventional mortgages rise to 11%. They're bailing themselves out. And, by the way, they don't sell their loans.
Dave of the Jungle
· 1 year ago
Does Warren Buffet support the bail out?
melissap
· 1 year ago
So let's see - some guy comes in and robs me blind - then his get away car breaks down and so he comes back in and threatens to take the rest of my stuff if I don't open up the garage and give him my own set of wheels. Yeah - I feel so bad about the bailout going down in flames.
WindmillChasr
· 1 year ago
It's more than that John. Since the highs, I've lost over 25%. That's no messing around. I'm young and can wait it out. Others are not so lucky, and you can hold the deregulators and the oil based economy to blame. I sure will.
Steve_in_CNJ
· 1 year ago
McCain has been acting like a chicken with its head cut off. There was a good essay by Richard Holbrooke at HuffPo today, including this:
"The manner in which each man approached problems was strikingly different. McCain ... almost never made clear what he thought was the larger purpose of policy. Each problem was treated on its own, and McCain's proposed policies were invariably confrontational. John McCain's world focuses almost entirely on threats. Obama usually agreed with McCain on the nature of these threats, but his proposals for action were more insightful, sophisticated, and comprehensive.... "
But more seriously, the NYT reports that until AIG went down - and threatened to take 20 billion of Goldman Sachs down with it, Paulson had no need of a bailout. But as soon at G.S. had big exposure - well - gotta have a bailout and bailout right now! A few days before he just let Lehman go. C'mon! How about Paulson's 500 million golden parachute? Why is no one mentioning that!
WhoAmI
· 1 year ago
We're not just talking about retirement savings here. We're talking about all those companies who rely on credit to keep up with cutting-edge technology. If they can't get loans to keep up, only the large companies will survive and you'd better hope you work for one of them. I don't know how many small businesses fall into the "need for credit" category, but the company that I work for does. This is not only a bailout for all those speculators who "got drunk". We're talking about our jobs here. If the economy tanks, it's going to be all of us who pay the price. Think about it. My daughter works in the financial sector and she says it's time to start thinking that the sky is falling. She doesn't have investors in mind. She's far too low on the ladder to worry about that. She's thinking about what's going to happen to everyone else.
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
Until today I never understood how the elitist label worked so well for conservatives when the slather it all over progressives, but now I get it. You people don't give a fuck about real people, just as long as your ideology is reinforced. You are no different than the free market knucle draggers that got us here in the first place.
Reason0Politics1
· 1 year ago
wow. I hope you find peace sistah! because only with a real accounting and a real inventory, not bogus printed paper over the turd, will a solution be found. This bill was indeed bogus papering over turds
devis1
· 1 year ago
I try to talk politics with my dad and he thinks they're all crooks. Getting laid off multiple times from the late 70's through his retirement in the late 90's, through Democratic and Republican administrations fostered that view. Hope for change only takes you so far. Nothing like getting laid off to open your eyes. Best wishes to you,
met00
· 1 year ago
what a total crock. the bottom line is the bill didn't fix anything. get over it. And remember that there are WMDs in Iraq. If you bought that line of BS, well I can see why you are buying this.
Indigo
· 1 year ago
Over the past year, the deflation of my net worth is more along the lines of 30%.
It's probably too subtle to point out that most of these losses are paper losses that can easily rebound and grow in a favorable economy. I didn't really loose anything because I didn't really have it. I had access to that wealth. I no longer have access to the 30%. I lost the access, that's true, but it isn't an emotional event for me. It's what's happened. The five stages of grief are a convenience that we cannot afford. Emotional display is energy wasted.
Consider what did not happen: a nuclear weapon did not explode anywhere; armed troops did not march through my subdivision; I am not now trekking across country to safety. I don't have a custody number tatooed to my wrist. I am not afraid. I acknowledge that I am powerless over the Lords and Master who would control us. I am more deeply committed to the rise of socialism than ever. I do not fear a violent insurgency.
Reason0Politics1
· 1 year ago
I think I love you, Indigo! <3 <3 <3
darn str8!
Indigo
· 1 year ago
I'm on Chemistrydot and Gaydot com. Blink. Blink.
Reason0Politics1
· 1 year ago
kisses and huggles <3<3<3
ZennButtKicker (tlhwraith)
· 1 year ago
You are making the rather arrogant assumption that this is all over.
Also, the phrase "I do not fear a violent insugency" shows you are either a fool, or have no idea of what that looks like. So as you sit in your nice little house dreaming of revolution on your nice little computer, some of us are not seeing such a rosey outcome on the other side. I don't think people in this country understand just how bad bad can be. Talk to me when the lights go out because the energy markets stall, the grocery stores start running low on supplies, or entities like the police decide it isn't worth it to go to work anymore.
Like I said before, this isn't the end of the trouble, this is day 0.
Indigo
· 1 year ago
Name calling is so very Republican, Sarah. May I call you Sarah? I hear your fear but I assure you, until the gonzos are leaping from Wall Street's tallest buildings, it's just another correction.
lovepeaceandallthat
· 1 year ago
I hear what you are saying, but that is sort of reductionistic thinking I believe. One could argue that money itself doesn't exist. In fact, it doesn't. It is just a word, with an idea behind it. And a lot of faith.
Energy (work) is real. Hungry tummies are real. Gold is real, but that is just because we think it is pretty. It is all so weird when you start to think of it this way. I guess it healthy to go down this trail of thought because it wakes you up into realizing some simple truths:
We are all on the same planet. We share the resources (fairly or not). People live in communities and need one another to survive. We eat. We poop. We grow our food. We need clean air and clean water. We have the ability to kill each other needlessly, but we also have the GREAT capacity for enlightenment and using our noggins to overcome the urges of the ego (collective and otherwise).
Sorry, off on a tangent.
melissap
· 1 year ago
People - the economy is tanking - all the bailout does is to make sure we have nothing left to help those of us who are losing and have lost our jobs. We need to extend unemployment obviously, and I for one as a small business owner am being crushed by health care costs. We cut back every year! Pretty soon we'll have to just cut it out completely. If the bailout passes - Obama will have no chance of passing that. 700 billion will go a long way towards investing in jobs in the alternative energy sector - that we simply must invest in! Not to mention that our entire electrical grid needs to be rebuilt. There's a lot of jobs that could be created with that. Inflation will wipe out any money you might think you're saving by falsely propping the market up. Supply and demand - the more $$ you flood the the system with, the less each individual dollar is worth. This is a train wreck no matter what we do. Let's not tear up the tracks behind us.
LKN
· 1 year ago
Everyone should calm down. The market always reacts negatively when "it" does not get what it wants. It will probably gain all back next week, with no damage to anyone who did not need to access their money this week.
That said, the Plunge Protection team has been meddling in the markets for quite some time. It is possible that they will drive things down to pressure the Congress into giving them what they want.
They Dems should pass a bill that they can support without Republicans. Perhaps give loans to the banks instead of taking worthless assets. And there was never any guarantee that banks would start lending again even if this bill passed. Better to force them to lend by making access to the Fed lending window contingent upon making loans to main street.
ShirleyGoodnessanMercy
· 1 year ago
Is it true that if we took the salaries of 15 American top CEOs we would have enough to solve the financial crisis?
Reason0Politics1
· 1 year ago
there is a real possibility that Bush will now attempt to override the congress and declare a state of economic emergency and allocate the $700 billion for the Wall Street.
This could, in fact, be the perfect opportunity for Bush to consolidate his power behind the smokescreen of a major economic crisis. -Mike Whitney
This is a very LARGE possibility!
SteamingPile
· 1 year ago
Actually, you just lost NINE percent of your retirement. That's how far the S&P 500, the index on which most of your index funds are based, dropped.
Thank God I have another 20 years or so until retirement.
mf_roe
· 1 year ago
The trillion that evaporated today was a down payment on the mark to market transaction that looms. The house of cards can not be proped up forever, the sooner it falls the better. every prop-up will be paid for by the people who have already been cheated. We will not pass this trial unbloodied, the pain will be very real. Better we look for the creators of this mess and PUNISH them than buy more mirrors and bigger smoke machines.
ComradeRutherford
· 1 year ago
Thank the gods the "welfare ONLY for the extremely wealthy" bill was voted down.
I am 100% against handing what little money we can still borrow from China directly to the profiteers that have already promised to put it all directly into their pockets and screw the USA even worse.
NO WELFARE FOR THE OBSCENELY WEALTHY! And that's ALL that bill was.
The better bailout would be to hand the $500,000+ dollars this would have cost every American directly to We, The People. We could have paid of our credit cards, paid off our mortgages, and re-started the economy by actually having some money in our pockets.
aquarius2
· 1 year ago
i have read all the comments and tried to find some kind of understanding on line. For me, and I am sure millions of other Americans this is just too complex. Economists don't even agree, they are split . How the hell are people like me supposed to understand if the bailout is right or wrong.? I see valid points on both sides but I am sick of not being given clear cut answers.
No one has a clear answer, no one. Argue all you want but the bottom line is WHERE is the truth?
GeorgeSalt
· 1 year ago
IF your retirement is 100% invested in the stockmarket, THEN you did indeed lose 7% or 9% or whatever. However, if your retirement is indeed 100% invested in the stockmarket, then I suggest you find a new financial adviser.
ComradeRutherford
· 1 year ago
And for those of you that wanted the further kill off what little remains of the US economy by handing &400B to the obscenely wealthy, Bush went and just did it anyway!
"The Federal Reserve will pump an additional $630 billion into the global financial system, flooding banks with cash to alleviate the worst banking crisis since the Great Depression.
The Fed increased its existing currency swaps with foreign central banks by $330 billion to $620 billion to make more dollars available worldwide. The Term Auction Facility, the Fed’s emergency loan program, will expand by $300 billion to $450 billion. The European Central Bank, the Bank of England and the Bank of Japan are among the participating authorities.
The Fed’s expansion of liquidity, the biggest since credit markets seized up last year, came hours before the U.S. House of Representatives rejected a $700 billion bailout for the financial industry. The crisis is reverberating through the global economy, causing stocks to plunge and forcing European governments to rescue four banks over the past two days alone"
WTF? Alot of this is over my head even tho I took several economics and finance courses in college (retired from Citi so really, really don't want them to go down). Doesn't this seem to say they went ahead and solved the credit crunch??
lovepeaceandallthat
· 1 year ago
And they just passed a 600 billion bill that goes towards Iraq, right? But all that is on loan, isn't it? I mean, that makes the deficit get larger each time they "charge" the war on their mighty "credit card". I guess a good name for that credit card would be "Masterscam" or "Bank of the Next Generation".
Is it true that the Chinese own that loan -- the loan for the war? How does that work?
And is this 630 billion you mention here in the mainstream media at all? It happened when? Today?
Does this mean the repubs who voted no today most likely knew this money was going to be basically another bailout?
And how is this Fed Reserve money exactly going to the obscenely wealthy? How does that work?
And is tomorrow going to be like a snow day? You listen to the radio and they call off which banks are closed? Oh yeah, I guess that list would be online nowadays.
mcd410x
· 1 year ago
What desert_hussein_rat said: Obsessing about one-day movements in the market is meaningless -- unless you're retiring tomorrow.
The bottom line is: The bill sucked.
And hell, the market may go up 700 tomorrow -- there are no guarantees in life.
lovepeaceandallthat
· 1 year ago
It seems like people are argueing over whether a 7% drop is a death cry or something we can absorb or "make up".
Well, what about the poor people? How does this affect them? You know, people without health care, investments of any sort, no equity, large debt, maybe a job -- maybe not.
And when do we know when we are in a depression? I understand the banks are not loaning any money to businesses. But businesses depend on borrowing money to meet payroll and to buy inventory or equipment etc. How long can they last without loans? When do people start getting layed off?
And what about inflation?
For those of us with retirement plans to worry about... my God, isn't the situation for the poor much more immediate no matter how much the economy is "rescued"?
Wild_Weasel
· 1 year ago
The dictionary defines "laissez faire" capitalism as "A doctrine opposing governmental interference in economic affairs beyond the minimum necessary for the maintenance of peace and property rights."
Unfortunately, NeoCon ideologues have defined laissez faire as NO government regulation. Irresponsible. No regulation.
My retirement is evaporating because some very rich people have profited from a vacuum in regulation.
Wild_Weasel
· 1 year ago
We need to adopt a Chinese justice system that takes greedy crooks and puts them before a firing squad.
America may never recover from this mess. It is likely the tipping point in the downward spiral of America.
Kozar
· 1 year ago
Actually,I lost less than 1%. But let's keep those alarm bells ringing. Will we have posts daily, even as the DJIA goes up?
clytemnestra
· 1 year ago
My oldest is trying to get through nursing school, called me yesterday and told me she is signing the bottom line for the National Guard so that she can go to college.
This is what I fought to avoid... how many of you fucking CEOs who raped and robbed this country and got your triple golden parachutes are getting a call from your kids saying that they have to go into the military so that they can go to college.
All Comments
your obviously NOT doing your homework, just buying into BS. Stop it! You have some credibility! Dont throw it away by supporting BS Bailouts!
http://www.thiscantbehappening.net/?q=node/214
It will be fun to watch both Obama and McCain squirm now to explain why they backed a scheme that the American people clearly see as a crooked deal.
People see clearly that this proposal is a trillion-dollar giveaway to the very people who have been hollowing out and destroying the US economy for over a decade or more by convincing both parties to let them do whatever they want to get rich, free of any kind of significant oversight or regulation.
As Nobelist economist Joseph Stiglitz has written of this outrageous rip-off, there are four problems facing the financial system, and the bailout proposal only addresses one--getting the toxic mortgages off the banks' books and onto taxpayers' backs. Left unsolved is the gaping hole in banks' balance sheets in the form of loans made to people and companies which cannot be repaid, which will mean they still won't start lending money again. Left unaddressed too is the continuing collapse of housing prices, which will inevitably lead to more bank collapses even after the bailout. Finally, Stiglitz says there is the general loss of faith in the financial system--a major crisis which the bailout will also not solve.
Stiglitz doesn't even address a fifth problem which is that this trillion-plus-dollar boondoggle (and when you add in the bailouts of Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, AIG, Bear Stearns, the multiple mega-bank failures and the pending auto-industry bailout, you're already talking $1.5 trillion and counting), all of it with borrowed money, the stage is being set for a collapse in the US dollar, with consequences that will reverberate through the economy. Consider: if the dollar collapses, as many experts say is almost inevitable with this kind of huge addition to the national debt, oil prices (which are set in dollars) will soar to compensate, the price of all the other goods that Americans import--more than half of everything we use in daily life thanks to the decimation of American manufacturing--will rise dramatically, and ultimately, in an effort to stem the bleeding, interest rates will have to be raised, thus bringing what's left of the economy to a grinding halt.
All of this is readily predictable--and indeed a group of over 200 prominent economists has written Congress joining Stiglitz in opposing the bailout plan--but that doesn't matter to the proponents of the bailout in Washington. What they want is to get past Election Day, and the bailout may do that, unless the public gets really aroused.
The tsunami of calls and emails to Congress, and last week's nationwide demonstrations against the bailout suggest that the public is waking up to this looming disaster and to the fact that they are being sold a bill of goods.
Bailing out these companies is not a very savory thing to do, but it is so beyond what we want at this point. To vote down this plan, sadly is going to do the country in and drag the rest of the world down the toilet at the same time.
These small minded politicians who are not smart enough to see that this is no time for CYA politics.
But it is too late. If you think the markets tanked today, you ain't seen nothing yet.
but on this one...
you are the naive one. Throwing more money after bad will NOT stop the train wreck. How can you be so duped as to now trust the thieves that caused it? Destroy whats left of the nation to protect your selfish 401k? Thats NOT solid judgment, my friend. We are most likely already destroyed, but adding to it as a temporary stop gap? insanely foolish and truly naive.
hmmm...
$700 Billion could pay for 10 years of Obama's healthcare plan.
sorry this is hitting some hard, recently.
Welcome to the start of the death spiral and when we hit bottom (not even close yet) none of us will be waxing poetic about how wonderful it is that now we can set things right. There is a time when personal convictions must be sacrificed in the name of action, and today was one of them, and once again our elected officials chose self interest (getting re-elected).
here's what a commenter on my blog says:
"I don't think there should be any bail out whatsoever. Let the markets correct themselves. If they crash and burn, fine. We can start over.
There will not be credit freeze up. Rich people need poor people to buy their sh*t. If they don't sell their stuff, they don't make money. They WILL issue credit when necessary.
Does anyone honestly believe the banks will be sitting on all these houses they foreclosed on, forever?
Houses that sit vacant for long periods of time decline in value, as they are subject to vandalism and depreciation. All this scare tactic BS is only being used to make some quick money for Wall Street.
They took the risks, let them pay the price. Where the hell is all that money they made? Time for them to dig some of it out and pony up.
If anything, I think the government should start prosecuting all those responsible for this pyramid scheme, and start seizing all their assets. We would have plenty of money then, and no bail out would be necessary."
to which my response was:
"I think the government should start prosecuting all those responsible for this pyramid scheme..."
hmmm... isn't that the same problem we've been having all along - expecting that the criminals will prosecute themselves...?
i'm happy... let the goddam house of cards fall, the quicker the better...
http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/
It's how you want to FRAME it. If you want to continue FRAMING it in terms that favor the GOP, go for it. But the reality is that there was a 7% decrease in the market, and while that's a great deal, it is not like those of us who have been investing for the last 30 years are in a LOSS position. After multiple years of 12-20% gains, a 7% loss hurts, but it is money that is invested. That means, as investors like to say, that it's time to "income average" some and continue my prudent investing in mutual funds that match my long term strategy.
As for the hiccup, it hurts if I was a short term investor. But my 401K is a long term investment. So I'm not all that worried. And the fact that you are just shows that someone has not explained everything clear enough.
"The normal legislative process that should accompany a monumental proposal to bail out Wall Street has been shelved. Yes, shelved! Only a few insiders are doing the dealing. These criminals have so much power they can shut down the normal legislative process of the highest lawmaking body in this land. All the committees that should be scanning every word that is being negotiated have been benched. And that means the American people have been benched. We are constitutionally sworn to protect this country against all enemies foreign and domestic, and yes, my friends, there are enemies....The people who are pushing this bill are the very same one's who are responsible for the implosion on Wall Street. They were fraudulent then; and they are fraudulent now.We should say No to this deal".
This massive transfer of dollars to Wall Street insiders will not help the ecomomy one bit. All it would so is prop up stock prices long enough so that the insiders could sell out their shares for a better price.
If we are going to spend $700 billion, it should go directly into the economy with jobs programs like the WPA, infrastructure investment, and other ideas expressed by Dennis Kucinich and others.
It is a mistake to believe that the Republicans alone scuttled this bailout when 95 good Democrats also stood up against this terrible transfer of wealth directly to those criminals who have already stolen so much.
I also talked to a civil engineer a few weeks ago, and he was telling me WPA-built projects knock flat all most modern construction for it's design and durability...
But, point taken on the loss, however, you don't know that other, major issues we face wouldn't have caused this anyway, of course.
Again, money in the stock market is NEVER 'money in your pocket..'
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/articl...
Besides, there's no guarantee that the banks will use the money in the way that Paulson imagines. As one Wall Street veteran explained to me, "I don't see one penny of that $700 billion ending up helping the broader economy. I see it being used to prop up share prices so the insiders can salvage as much as possible when dumping their shares".
Indeed, the $700 billion is just part of a massive "pump and dump" scheme engineered with the tacit approval of the US Treasury and the Federal Reserve. Once the banksters have offloaded their fraudulent securities and crappy paper on Uncle Sam, they will do whatever they need to do pad the bottom line and drive their stocks up. That means they will shovel capital into hard assets, foreign currencies, gold, interest rate swaps, carry trade swindles, and Swiss bank accounts. The notion that they will recapitalize so they can provide loans to US consumers and businesses in a slumping economy is a pipedream. The US is headed into its worst recession in 60 years. The housing market is crashing, securitzation is kaput, and the broader economy is drifting towards the reef. The banks are not going to waste their time trying to revive a moribund US market where consumers and businesses are already tapped out. No way; it's on to greener pastures. They'll move their capital wherever they think they can maximize their profits. In fact, a sizable portion of the $700 billion will likely be invested in commodities, which means that we'll see another round of hyperbolic speculation in food and energy futures pushing food and fuel prices back into the stratosphere. Ironically, the taxpayers largess will be used against him, making a bad situation even worse.
Not that I didn't take a bath anyway, but not as bad a bath as it could have been.
As long as McCain stays away and doesn't fuck it up again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAADyc6t4nY
This bill failed because it was a piece of crap, end of story.
Welcome to the real world I live in, hand-to-mouth.
But, on the other hand, inflation and unemployment are higher.
Are you retiring tomorrow? Yeah, it hurts.
Are you retiring in 5 years? Yeah, it stings.
Are you retiring in 10 or more years? Cool, what an opportunity to buy shares of quality companies at low prices.
This was a steaming pile of a bill. Even with the Democratic improvements, it was shit on artisan bread, with Dijon mustard.
It's quite clear the GOP isn't going to put country first.
Now the Democratic majority has been given carte blanche to write a better bill. Without the GOP. With more help for homeowners, for working people, With nationalization ON the table. With real Congressional oversight. With real restrictions on executive golden parachutes.
We can also dole out the money in smaller parcels as needed. And after today, just let the GOP filibuster it. Just let Bush veto it. Let them explain to voters that they are putting party ahead of country.
But above all, let's keep a little perspective, instead of freaking out, ok?
Unless you are retiring soon (in which case, what are you doing all in stocks anyway?), this is a setback. Nothing more.
I'm truly sorry to hear you lost your job today. I have been exactly there, more than once. If you think I am being callous about that, please accept my sincerest apologies. That wasn't my intention.
I know a number of people who have lost jobs this year. It was bad before the bailout bill. It's also worth noting that even with the bailout bill, there is going to be a period of pain. Not happy news, I know.
I was speaking more narrowly about this bailout bill. The economy is in sorry shape right now. Today, as horrible as the selloff was, Wall Street effectively gave back the gains of what was an entirely irrational run up in the market the last few days.
Something does need to be done. Handing that money to the same people who brought you Iraq and Katrina with oversight restrictions and restrictions on executive pay that Treasury officials are already labeling as "a joke" is not something I believe to be acceptable. As a taxpayer, I'd like to think that your money, and my money, should be used more effectively.
"The manner in which each man approached problems was strikingly different. McCain ... almost never made clear what he thought was the larger purpose of policy. Each problem was treated on its own, and McCain's proposed policies were invariably confrontational. John McCain's world focuses almost entirely on threats. Obama usually agreed with McCain on the nature of these threats, but his proposals for action were more insightful, sophisticated, and comprehensive.... "
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/amb-richard-c-hol...
It's probably too subtle to point out that most of these losses are paper losses that can easily rebound and grow in a favorable economy. I didn't really loose anything because I didn't really have it. I had access to that wealth. I no longer have access to the 30%. I lost the access, that's true, but it isn't an emotional event for me. It's what's happened. The five stages of grief are a convenience that we cannot afford. Emotional display is energy wasted.
Consider what did not happen: a nuclear weapon did not explode anywhere; armed troops did not march through my subdivision; I am not now trekking across country to safety. I don't have a custody number tatooed to my wrist. I am not afraid. I acknowledge that I am powerless over the Lords and Master who would control us. I am more deeply committed to the rise of socialism than ever. I do not fear a violent insurgency.
darn str8!
Also, the phrase "I do not fear a violent insugency" shows you are either a fool, or have no idea of what that looks like. So as you sit in your nice little house dreaming of revolution on your nice little computer, some of us are not seeing such a rosey outcome on the other side. I don't think people in this country understand just how bad bad can be. Talk to me when the lights go out because the energy markets stall, the grocery stores start running low on supplies, or entities like the police decide it isn't worth it to go to work anymore.
Like I said before, this isn't the end of the trouble, this is day 0.
Energy (work) is real. Hungry tummies are real. Gold is real, but that is just because we think it is pretty. It is all so weird when you start to think of it this way. I guess it healthy to go down this trail of thought because it wakes you up into realizing some simple truths:
We are all on the same planet. We share the resources (fairly or not). People live in communities and need one another to survive. We eat. We poop. We grow our food. We need clean air and clean water. We have the ability to kill each other needlessly, but we also have the GREAT capacity for enlightenment and using our noggins to overcome the urges of the ego (collective and otherwise).
Sorry, off on a tangent.
That said, the Plunge Protection team has been meddling in the markets for quite some time. It is possible that they will drive things down to pressure the Congress into giving them what they want.
They Dems should pass a bill that they can support without Republicans. Perhaps give loans to the banks instead of taking worthless assets. And there was never any guarantee that banks would start lending again even if this bill passed. Better to force them to lend by making access to the Fed lending window contingent upon making loans to main street.
This could, in fact, be the perfect opportunity for Bush to consolidate his power behind the smokescreen of a major economic crisis. -Mike Whitney
This is a very LARGE possibility!
Thank God I have another 20 years or so until retirement.
I am 100% against handing what little money we can still borrow from China directly to the profiteers that have already promised to put it all directly into their pockets and screw the USA even worse.
NO WELFARE FOR THE OBSCENELY WEALTHY! And that's ALL that bill was.
The better bailout would be to hand the $500,000+ dollars this would have cost every American directly to We, The People. We could have paid of our credit cards, paid off our mortgages, and re-started the economy by actually having some money in our pockets.
No one has a clear answer, no one. Argue all you want but the bottom line is WHERE is the truth?
"The Federal Reserve will pump an additional $630 billion into the global financial system, flooding banks with cash to alleviate the worst banking crisis since the Great Depression.
The Fed increased its existing currency swaps with foreign central banks by $330 billion to $620 billion to make more dollars available worldwide. The Term Auction Facility, the Fed’s emergency loan program, will expand by $300 billion to $450 billion. The European Central Bank, the Bank of England and the Bank of Japan are among the participating authorities.
The Fed’s expansion of liquidity, the biggest since credit markets seized up last year, came hours before the U.S. House of Representatives rejected a $700 billion bailout for the financial industry. The crisis is reverberating through the global economy, causing stocks to plunge and forcing European governments to rescue four banks over the past two days alone"
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087...
Is it true that the Chinese own that loan -- the loan for the war? How does that work?
And is this 630 billion you mention here in the mainstream media at all? It happened when? Today?
Does this mean the repubs who voted no today most likely knew this money was going to be basically another bailout?
And how is this Fed Reserve money exactly going to the obscenely wealthy? How does that work?
And is tomorrow going to be like a snow day? You listen to the radio and they call off which banks are closed? Oh yeah, I guess that list would be online nowadays.
The bottom line is: The bill sucked.
And hell, the market may go up 700 tomorrow -- there are no guarantees in life.
Well, what about the poor people? How does this affect them? You know, people without health care, investments of any sort, no equity, large debt, maybe a job -- maybe not.
And when do we know when we are in a depression? I understand the banks are not loaning any money to businesses. But businesses depend on borrowing money to meet payroll and to buy inventory or equipment etc. How long can they last without loans? When do people start getting layed off?
And what about inflation?
For those of us with retirement plans to worry about... my God, isn't the situation for the poor much more immediate no matter how much the economy is "rescued"?
Unfortunately, NeoCon ideologues have defined laissez faire as NO government regulation. Irresponsible. No regulation.
My retirement is evaporating because some very rich people have profited from a vacuum in regulation.
America may never recover from this mess. It is likely the tipping point in the downward spiral of America.
This is what I fought to avoid... how many of you fucking CEOs who raped and robbed this country and got your triple golden parachutes are getting a call from your kids saying that they have to go into the military so that they can go to college.
And yeah my retirment investments have lost 7% ..